Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

As a stress reliever on the funeral trip to Florida,
I sat in the hotel one night while wife was in the shower,
and drew a bullet on a scrap of Holiday Inn Express note paper.
I may not get to be a commercial pilot by staying the night there,
but now I am a bullet designer !

A reference on copper and brass 450-gr/.458 FN solids:



Concept done on graph paper after I got home,
here is a cutie that looks a lot like Sir Saint Bill Bagwell's PH hardcast of 475 to 480 grains in .458" diameter for BPCR
("Smoke Over Africa").
That killer-diller at 1300 fps was 1.22" long and had seven grease grooves on it, and a flat nose and base.
My concept in copper could be exactly 400 grains and travel at 2500 fps, BOL 1.200"



The basic shape is the base frustrum of a right circular cone with 26-degree cone angle, 0.240" height, 0.458" base diameter,
sitting on top of a right circular cylinder of 0.458" diameter and 0.960" height.



That basic shape in copper of specific gravity about 8.9 would weigh about 424 grains, I SWAG.
After whittling away the Hammer PDR bands/grooves X 7 along the sides
and radius-beveling the nose down to 0.300" meplat diameter (about 65.5% of caliber)
and rounding the flat base edge,
if anymore reduction in weight is needed to get 400-grains exactly: A tiny hollow in the base.
This would work in the .45-70 Gov't. lever action with .458" groove and any other .458-cal rifle I know of.
"405-g" would be OK too if a catchier number than plain vanilla "400-g" is desired.
400 grains or 405 grains, since 402 and 404 are already taken by Hammer .458 bullets.






This basically copies the BBW#13 FN solid nose shape of Sam Rose, Sir Michael "Doc M" McCourry, CEB, and North Fork.
But with the PDR bands, I think the "nose projection" issue is a non-issue
since with the low drag bands of Hammer Bullets, the whole length of the bullet becomes "nose projection."
About 0.600" minimum of nose projection ahead of the "high drag" CEB bands is recommended for best penetration.
How about twice that amount using PDR bands ?

I’m sorry to hear about you MIL!

That old WW ammo doesn’t look so darned bad to me. Those big suckers at 2000FPS seem like they would stop a lot of stuff pretty handily!

Thank you for the work RC.

I have used brass and copper solids and they both shoot through most anything, including 5/8 inch steel plates.
For short cartridges, I prefer the brass Punch bullet with lead filled base. Otherwise, NF Copper has done well from my rifles.

Good news is that there are plenty of very good bullet deigns from which to choose.

Recovery of these bullets from dead game has become rare.

Sir Ron,
As you are well aware of All OUR Deepest sympathy for you, and your Family, and reading the Facts that you've enclosed, are Heart Wrenching!
Life's Hard enough, as you understand more than most, with your Back ground and Medical Expertise.

If nothing else maybe the .458 WinMag ammo helped to take your mind off of things for a bit, and helped you to try to move fore ward a little. Great Di section of the Ammo, and What I think is great results! Yes you are Correct in the Ammo being well preserved,as we were taught by our Fathers, and the Likes. Your research here is Simply second to none, and we are all looking fore ward to your Possible Published Works! Move Over Previous Gun Writers. LOL!

I could see a Rondevous in our future, as a Meeting of the Knights of the Square Table,(now with the Covid stuff aside), as Sir Jerry has suggested, in the past.
As Far as Pappy, heck Mammy, or her cousins will do just fine as we all can add to the Cellar, enjoying some of our favorite Home Made Recipes, and Such, and getting schooled in Person, by the Master Knight Him Self, and Enjoy a Little HOOH RAH! LOL!
Sir Tony

Hey Sir Tony,
Will you settle for a bottle of Buffalo Trace if I can find one ?
I'll drink to that !
Sir Jerry will probably prefer the whisky instead of the whiskey.

Emailed Steve Davis since his telephone mailbox is full.
He has been busy, off the Hammer Bullets forums.
He did say Hammer could do that FN solid copper bullet.

With the 404-gr High-BC "Long Ranger" Shock Hammer
and the 402-gr 90% Retention Shock Hammer,
a 400-gr FN Solid Copper Hammer would complete the grand slam of .458 caliber bullets.
Nothing else need apply for any job.

I await with bated breath.
What will it be called in the catalog ?
"Copperhead Hammer" ... deadly biter ...
"Flat Head Hammer" ... to honor the Native American Tribe ...
"Copper Hammer" ... better than a Brass Hammer ...
"Solid Hammer" ... simply a solid performer ...
I'll look at the catalog and see if there are any other solids already named.
Short term memory of sometimers' disease is not for sissies.

I like Flathead Hammer myself.

Jeremiah Johnson is always in my brain when I hear Flathead.

“Them thar’s Flatheads and they’ve hurt no one” butchered from what Del Gue said.

Sir Scotty,

Buy a donkey for that input.
Hammer Bullets is in Kalispell, Montana, on the shore of Flathead Lake.
That is a huge natural reservoir left by the glaciers and outflowing as the Flathead River.
Smack dab in the middle of Flathead Country, as the locals call it.
Oom John Buhmiller Country, Bauska and MRC, etc.
McGowen Custom Barrels is in Kalispell too.
It is the Rifleman's Mecca.

Flathead Hammer is what I am calling the bullet,
maybe Hammer Bullets will do so too.

Damn, you guys are stepping all around nickname Dad had for me, HAMMERHEAD! LOL, nice to see the quality in the old 1957 FMJ's from WW, i knew i'd mess up diving behind a two ft diameter tree for cover from one of those, think i'd have got found ; ]

Good stuff Sir Ron, glad you're back.

Sir Ron,
Just a Kind Gesture to add to the Foray, and sit back and enjoy your work, Good Sir! As you know a Bottle is only good in the Company that's present, no matter what the Label.
So your Kind Gesture, can and will be enjoyed at the Next Meeting of the square Table,by ALL, in Full Regalia. Septor and all, oh fine one! LOL!
I think we can Satisfy Sir Jerry, one way or another.

As far as a name for the Hammer Bullets that we are all so very impressed with, you've come up with a couple good ones.IMO
As much as I like the "Copperhead Hammer Bullets" it does remind me of the .22 cal. bullets of old, that we used to shoot a lot.
"Flat Head Hammer Bullets", Honoring the Indian Tribes, is nice also.
Lot's of good choices, as the Bullet itself won't let the Shooter down, regardless of the Name!

Keep up the good work!
Sir Tony

Sir Ron,

Very sorry for your wife, and whatever hits them, hits us too, so it is good to have some distractions. That's how I treat my blog writing. There's more than enough trouble for most folk, and to have grace from God to get up and go on is a good thing. You've demonstrated that many times. So I pray for you (and your wife) that you'll experience His grace from day to day.

Keep on keeping on with your good work, which, BTW, isn't limited to making bullets.

Shalom

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

A rock maple would work, but I fired a soft-nose 405gr/.458" from my Marlin at around 2000 fps into a 16" softwood tree about twenty years ago, from around eight feet, and it went completely through, landing 10 or 12 feet the other side making a furrow 6 to 8 feet long before burrowing itself, never to be found! So don't stand behind any trees is someone thinks you're a deer and firing a .45-70!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

The mentioned tree was a tamarack. A number of years later I was testing some handloads from my Marlin (45-70) during the winter at my no.1 bear-bait location. At the time the bait was much closer than later years, at 36 yards from the blind. At 40 yards there was a dead-fall - a 10" spruce. It was showing it's age as most of the branches had fallen off or been broken by game - mostly deer. When a bear was approaching the bait it had to step over the dead-fall, giving away its distance from the blind. I did kill one bear there using my Ruger #1 45-70 LT.

However, what I'm talking about here is that test of bullets from the Marlin. The depth of snow was about to the lower side of the spruce, and I was shooting at the middle of it's diameter. These were not "pussy cat" loads, but Hot! In passing through the tree they were slowed enough to drop a bit and the frozen snow acted as a trap. I would then dig them out with a shovel (those I could find). One find was a 405gr Remington, with a slight mushroom, retaining 398.6 grains. I'll post a pic of it someday - that will be a first for that bullet.

A number of years ago I purchased 200 of those Remingtons. I'm down to about 40 now. I bought them at a bargain-basement price! Yet on bear and deer they are gold at appropriate ranges.

The point of this being we shouldn't despise bargains - they may turn out to be a bag of gold!

Carry on...

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,
Yes, Wife has been hard hit, she is still in Florida dealing with it all.
The malpractice part is probably going to slide off into the 2-year statute of limitations,
as tort reform in Florida made it unprofitable for lawyers to undertake cases for deceased elderly widows.
"Free Kill Law" of Florida is what lobbyists against it call it.

MIL was a pastor's wife and a social worker, mother of five children with him.
She loved dogs. We inherited her last one.
A little over 3 years ago, her second husband (a WWII Navy Pilot), died at 98 y.o.
She ended up in the "assisted living/dying home" at 91 y.o. but could not keep her dog, a Min Pin called Meika.
MIL ended up getting a declawed cat as a pet she was able to care for in "the home." How sad.
We took Meika in at 14-3/4 y.o. or 103 dog years.
She made it to fully 17.5 y.o. or 122 dog years.
She wasted from 16 pounds to 10 pounds, and was euthanized to end the suffering, and we cried lots with that.
That was about 6 months ago, and MIL heard about it and recommended another dog.
We dallied, but now in remembrance of her we have found not one but two pups to rescue from "Animal Control."
In the spirit of carrying on, as you stated so gracefully, I vow to keep at least one dog at all times,
and name them for rifle calibers, including retroactively.

Precious Meika in her prime at 17 y.o. or 119 dog years:



What luck to get sibling pups, male and female, 9 pounds each and 6 months old, according to "Kennel Card."
I can pick them up Monday after they recover enough from their spaying an neutering. Ouch.







Those two are going to be trained as squirrel dogs, tree rat dogs.

If I outlive the rat terriers, I pray The Lord will allow me one more dog:



Hopefully at this stage:



Not at this stage:

As you were.
Sir Michael had the 400-gr/.458 Flathead Hammer run by his forum,
and he offered some terminals of bullets with similar characteristics.
He said the North Fork B&M version 450-gr/.458 might actually be a wee bit better than the CEB brass 450-gr/.458 FN,
straight and true, a deep penetrator:



This 455-gr/.500-caliber copper FN has less sectional density than the proposed Flathead
but it was faultless considering the low velocity, stayed straight on course.



Both copper and brass will deform on heavy bone.
At 2500 fps or less there will be no noticeable expansion of either brass or copper on soft tissue or water impact.
1800 fps to 2500 fps in .45-70 Gov't or .458 WM ought to work with the Flathead Hammer.

Sir Jerry has acquired Sir Saint Bagwell's "Smoke over Africa" rifle from Mrs. Bill Bagwell.
That is a Shiloh Sharps 1874 Montana Rough Rider .45-70.
"It's one of five 20"-twist rifles Bill got Kirk up at Shiloh to tool up for."

Paper-patched load Sir Jerry has come up with has a standard deviation in fps of less than the number of shots fired,
2 fps for 3 shots. Excellent.
Jerry claims he can do better, in his usual self-deprecating manner, but that is going to be a tough nut to crack.

Mould is a copy of an original Sharps factory bullet "500-grainer" that weighs 505 In Sir Jerry's alloy,
and I am thinking might have been 511 grains in the alloy used by Sir Saint Bagwell.

Remember, if you have a SAAMI .458 WM or a .458 WM+ with 1:14" twist,
you too can shoot paper-patched bullets with BP.
But you gotta use a little harder alloy like 20:1 lead:tin.
And you gotta have a slick of about .450" to .452" diameter
(swaged rifle slicks of 530-grains are sold in .451" diameter at Buffalo Arms)
and patch it up to .458" to .459" diameter.
The .458 WinMag throat is thus perfect for paper patch work with BP or duplexed BP.
Clean shooting with the duplexed BP, no wiping or blowing for 50 shots or more.
The paper patch wipes it with each shot anyway.

The no-throat and slow-twist .45-70 requires a BPCR load as perfected by Sir Jerry.

They are so dumb it is funny.

That damned Gunner is an animal to keep pace with.

Thanks Sir Ron and Big Beretzs, working with Saint Bagwell's old rifle will be a fun and honorable project and will easily fill time from now to Africa as my 458 WM+ is like lunchmeat, always ready, no need to waste the ammunition, 450gr TSX's at 2418 fps are landing a foot low at 300 yards, the 500gr TBSS at 2350 fps land within an inch of the TSX's at 100 yards through scope, solids dead on at 50 yards with barrel sights, were a Buffalo to flee the 450gr TSX he would quickly be caught with a 500gr solid.

Sir Ron, Saint Bagwell gave me that mould to cast bullets for my two original 45 2-7/8's rifles, he had a man with the last name of Mos cut the mould, he spoke a lot of two of his favorite round nose paper patch bullets, one weighing 496gr, the other 511gr, he mostly cast and loaded with 50/50 wheel weights and pure lead, this bullet falls from the mould at 0.440 and patches up to 0.446 with Seth Cole 55W paper, i'll run all these soft at 40/1 alloy for deer and pigs this fall, it'll be the only Sharps rifle i hunt with this year.

The load is a mix of Starline brass i had plus 100 rounds Bill gave me, i annealed all cases, FL sized then trimmed at 2.100"
CCI-BR2 primer
75gr KIK 2F black powder compressed 0.400" with 0.010" playing card wad on top
0.200" Black Magic grease cookie with another playing card wad on top
Patched bullet hand seated then case mouth closed slightly with Lyman taper crimp die.

I was able to fire all three rounds with no wipe, no blowtube, also able to load then unload round number three before firing it, all that's necessary for hunting rifle loads.

I can do no better work, just want to honor the rifle and our Old Buddy Saint Bagwell.

Sir Jerry,
Sir Bagwell will be proud once again, as you Honor the Man, the Saint, the Legend, that Some of us who Didn't get the Honor,or privilege,
of His presence, or first hand knowledge, but truly enjoy the stories and facts of the Time well spent by you, and a few Lucky, and Fortunate others,
Who are willing to share this advanced Tutorial, at our expense, Forth Coming!

Tou-che'!