Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

That should work nicely!

Ditto, Sir Larry.
Sir John has done well.
The Whitworth .458. WM is a great rifle right from the factory, most of the time.
Mine had nice wood and excellent factory epoxy bedding and secondary recoil lug bedded too.
Good crossbolts and a dynamic 8.5-pound package overall.
Alas, mine had a few rings in the chamber and had to be converted to .458/.416 Ruger by re-chambering.
That was a great sadness.
One less .458 Winchester Magnum in the world.
Here it is before the re-chambering, done simply with a reaming and no set back of barrel.
At least it still has the .458 WinMag throat.
It now needs a new mag box to work correctly with 3 in the box:





Side by side with a Super Grade, a dynamic duo, a pair of peers:





I have the parts for the new mag box, still on the to-do list.
I also have a fold-down rear sight for the Whitworth when using the add-on receiver sight.
Schizophrenically the 3-leaf express sight with fixed 100-yard leaf was left in place with the Lyman peep
for the posing above.

I have 3ea of the Interarms Mark X / Whitworth. All have the island express sights. One is a 458 Winchester the others are 375 H&Hs. If I recall correctly all 3 have the additional barrel recoil lug.
The maybe I will or not list is synthetic stock for the 458. I am not sure the present day Bell & Carlson stocks will accommodate the barrel recoil lug. Not sure what all the stock options are. I have thought about removing the forward lug and fitting to a present day B&C stock.

Edit to add:
I have had others of these, 458 & 375. I sold a buddy a 375 H&H with a B&C stock, maybe 20 years ago. This was a very accurate rifle in an unbedded non-aluminum frame stock. After I sighted it in for him, I almost regretted selling it.

I'd be interested in a 375 length action Whitworth

They are opened entirely to the front versus the standard length .458 WinMag action on all the ones I have seen,
Alas, even Ol'Fugly my .458 Lott corruption of a Whitworth .458 WM was likewise abused by the local gunsmith.

I am stirring the pot over at the Hammer Bullets Forum:

G'Day farleg,

The Ol'Ladies and new puppy dogs have made me tardy to reply, forgive me please.

Any use of the 404g/.458 Shock Hammer on any game will be greatly appreciated.
This bullet and hopefully a matching solid is what I am hunting everything with henceforth,
whenever I can get spells clear of the domestics !

You ask if the 404g can get above 2600 fps in the .458 WM+.
I have done about 2625 fps MV with the 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN at 3.425" COL using compressed H4895
and a 25" Shilen barrel with SAAMI .458 WM chamber.
That was with the maximum load for the .458 Lott in the Woodleigh manual,
same COL and same degree of compression as their .458 Lott load, just seated more shallowly in the .458 WM+.
I SWAG the free-bore boost in the .458 WM allows higher velocity and/or lower pressure than in the SAAMI .458 Lott.

So, 2500 fps with the 404g is a modest MV with the 24"-barreled .458 WM+ at 3.480" COL.
An extreme load with 3.58" COL and 2600 fps should be possible,
just not much bullet left in the case.
That load might be excessive in the short-tight-throated SAAMI/CIP .458 Lott,
which is unlike the original .458 Lott LIKE JACK BUILT.

I also have other .458-caliber rifles that can get it well over 2600 fps,
like the CIP .450 Dakota, and my wildcat .458/.338 Lapua Magnum should do about 2900 fps.
However, I do have a crush on the .458 WM+.

I am mainly a "rifle crank" like some are crazy about boats, motorcycles, hotrods, antique cars, etc.
I have about 2 dozen wildcats of my own including a couple where I re-invented the wheel done earlier by someone else:
My .375/.338 Lapua Magnum I later called the ".375 Twister," after I found the ".375 Tornado" twin of it had been done by the Germans,
and they copyrighted the name "Tornado" as applied to any weapon system, even jet airplanes !
I also did the ".45-100 Sharps 2.6" Winchester Throated" and then found the identical cartridge existed as the ".45-70 Elko Magnum" by CIP homologation decades earlier.

So, I am no great hunter but have killed 2 each of water buffalo, bison, and cape buffalo.
Wish I had done that with the .458 WM.
I was a sucker for .458 Lott propaganda, fake news about the .458 WM, back then.
So I used a 460 Weatherby, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .500 A-Square, and my own .500 Mbogo wildcat,
the latter being a neck-up of Dave Estergaard's 470 Mbogo, lengthened by about 0.05" in brass to a full 3" case length.
Anything but a .458 WinMag !

Forgive me .458 Winchester Magnum.
Henceforth I will be hunting all with that.
My last two whitetail deer fell to the .458 WinMag.
A doe running at 150 yards with a GSC 400-gr HV.
A big buck at about 150 yards who had paused in chasing a tiny little doe,
used a Buffalo Bore load of the Barnes 400-gr TSX that gave 2350 fps MV in 25" Shilen-barreled
Ruger Mk II .458 WinMag.
One and done with each.

Oh, I have killed moose and marmot with a .458 WinMag in the late 1980's before I succumbed to .458 Lott propaganda, used 500-gr Hornady RNSN handloaded to 2150 fps in a 24" factory rifle.
The Hornady broke into two main lead chunks and an empty jacket on the moose.
That was a spectacular bullet failure that killed the moose DRT bang flop.

Now there is the most useful .458-caliber bullet ever made in the 404g Shock Hammer.
Most flexible near and far.
The 402g Shock Hammer is great as a magazine filler at 3.340" COL in the .458 WM, for shorter ranges.
The 404g Hi-BC Shock Hammer for near and far, may be loaded from 3.280" to 3.580" COL in 0.100" increments.

The 400-405g Flathead Claw Hammer is the solid for backup on anything in any .458 WM or .458 WM+ or even a 460 WBY.
Could also be used in lever action .45-70 Gov't., same as could the 402g Shock Hammer with hollow point greater in diameter than the primer ahead of it in a tubular magazine.
The Flathead Claw Hammer has a meplat of 0.300" diameter, well beyond the diameter of the recessed primer ahead of it in a tubular magazine.

Ron,
I went over to the Hammer forum and read the thread. If the Hammer bullets are major diameter, .458+ and then machined PDR grooves, then your statement about pressure seems logical to me. I will be interested in hearing why it's incorrect as Mr. Davis indicates that it is.

Ron,
I still have a hard time not typing RIP... I went over and read a lot more on Hammers, all good reading other folks thoughts always. What I can't tell from pictures or description is how the Hammer bullets PDR grooves-bands are actually formed and what they look like. I can't imagine a circumstance that isn't spinning a larger copper rod inside a CNC machine but still if you can shed light on that when you have time, I would greatly appreciate it.
Best to you Sir,
F01

Sir Dennis,

I answer to either. Have modified my signature.

Steve Davis has made no further comments on number of PDR locations.
He spoke from the perspective of the boat-tailed, long-ogived, pointy bullets.
On a flat-based-flat-nosed bullet we are absolutely correct.
The more the merrier, as long as the wavelength of the PDR band is the same,
repeating every 0.100" of run in the shank of the bullet,
and not just increased in frequency to increase the number of the "bands and grooves."

What little I know about the patented PDR bands is that they work very well on a bullet.
"Parabolic Drag Reduction" is what the acronym stands for, not "Physician's Desk Reference."
Easy to remember acronym.

I SWAG they are a sinusoidal pattern with peaks and troughs like a wave form.
Peaks are 0.0005"greater than groove diameter: 0.4585" for a .458-caliber.
Steve Davis stated that recently, as you read.
I SWAG the troughs are about 0.001" to 0.002" less than bore diameter, so 0.448" to 0.449" for a .450-bore.
No confirmation of that by Hammer. Might be 0.0005" to 0.0015" sub bore. Not sure.
Whatever it is they are working at 0.0001" capability, and I am working at 0.001" capability.

They buy the special alloy copper that they use in 10 or 12 feet lengths of rod.
Surely they have to spin some length of the rod in the CNC machinery, advancing it as each bullet drops off the cutter end.

Oh yes, I also used a 404 Jeffery on one of those "buffalo," a bison.
It was a 380-gr North Fork Premium Soft Point at about 2530 fps.
One-shot. Recovered bullet under offside hide on a broadside heart-lung shot.
Like using a 375 H&H soft point on steroids.

The 404g/.458 Shock Hammer at 2530 fps ought to work even better, except the bullet will pass through the offside hide
on a similar shot. Will bleed out faster. Might be a bang flop DRT instead of a 50-yard stagger.

The water buffalo shot with a 460 Weatherby old 500-gr RNSN factory load (similar broadside, heart&lung)
disintegrated the bullet and required a finisher in the neck with a .375 H&H,
handed to me by my faithful gunbearer, Lemuel.

I shoulda had a .458 WinMag with a 404g Shock Hammer.

IMHO exists are more deadly and often leave a better blood trail if tracking becomes necessary

Thank you sir!
F01

My pleasure Sir !

To stick the thermometer in the roasted .458 Lott, it would be nice to have more pressure data
comparing the SAAMI .458 WinMag, SAAMI .458 Lott and the wildcat.458 WM+.
Just sayin'.

Ponder this, all Lottites:

To illustrate that the run-of-the-mill 24″ Ruger No. 1 barrel with .459″ groove diameter and .450″ bore
(measured by slugging and pin gauging)
is no slouch,
here are some results with Lab Radar, all same day and 80*F:

Hornady DGS 500-gr .458 WM factory load, claimed 2140 fps MV
MV: 2153, 2134, 2134 mean = 2140.3 fps MV
100-yard: mean = 1866.7 fps

W-W Super 510-gr .458 WM (1990s’ white box) factory load, claimed 2040 fps MV
MV: 2001, 2040, 2065 mean = 2035.3 fps MV
100-yard: mean = 1804.7 fps

Some handloads in same rifle, same day, all with same powder charge: 83.0 gr AA-2460:]

Hornady 480-gr DGX-Bonded 3.560″ COL:
MV: 2408, 2408, 2406, 2404, 2402 mean = 2405.6 fps MV
100-yard: mean = 2087.6 fps

Woodleigh 480-gr HYDRO 3.580″ COL:
MV: 2473, 2471, 2455, 2467, 2472 mean = 2467.6 fps MV
100-yard: mean = 2070.4 fps

Barnes 450-gr TSX 3.570″ COL:
MV: 2451, 2465, 2458, 2457, 2464 mean = 2459.0 fps MV
100-yard: mean = 2221.8 fps

Federal 500-gr TBS Solid 3.550″ COL:
MV: 2419, 2408, 2406, 2401, 2405 mean = 2407.8 fps MV
100-yard: mean = 2106.4 fps

KE at muzzle = 6,436 ft-lbs for the 500-gr TBSS at 2407.8 fps
The .458 WM+ loads in a SAAMI .458 WM Ruger No.1 beats a .458 Lott.
Throat, throat, throat: Free-bore-boost.

Those handloads would make for some interesting pressure tracings at MIB, just sayin’.

The 450-gr TSX and 500-gr TBSS combo are unbeatable.
The 100 yard POI of the 450-gr TSX load was just 1" higher than the 500-gr TBSS load
when I tested them at 100 yards,
Sir Jerry is well armed with those bullets in his .458 WM+.

More gentlemanly loads will be possible with the 400-grainers from Hammer at 2500 fps or better.
COL for those will be usable in 3.4" magazine box loading.
And they will be sufficient for anything also.

The .458 B&M may be able to do with a 20" barrel what the SAAMI .458 WinMag does with a 24" barrel, almost ...
Here is some data harvested from results circa 2013 at MIB, by Michael McCourry.

MIB pressure and velocity data for 20″ .458 B&M versus 24″ .458 WM test rifles
using same bullet, one of my favorites, the North Fork 400-gr Premium Soft Point,
COLs not listed but assume .458 B&M is 3.00″ or less and .458 WM is 3.340″ or less:

.458 B&M:
70.0 gr RL-7 >>> 2365 fps <<< 63,545 psi

.458 WM:
70.0 gr RL-7 >>> 2369 fps <<< 58,105 psi
72.0 gr RL-10 (2013 version) >>> 2397 fps <<< 55,557 psi
75.0 gr RL-10 (2013 version) >>> 2447 fps <<< 60,129 psi

SAAMI .458 WM with 2.500″ brass length and 3.340″ COL allows 0.840″ bullet projection.
Proprietary .458 B&M with 2.240″ brass length and 3.000″ COL allows 0.760″ bullet projection.
Both cases have same gross case capacity.
Extra bullet projection of 0.080″ in the .458 WM gives it a 3.3-grain H20 net case capacity advantage.

With .458 WM throat revision of the .458 B&M it becomes the .458 B&M+W.
.458 B&M+W with COL of 3.340″ has same gross and net case capacity when using same bullet
as the .458 WM+ with COL of 3.600″.
Both will give higher velocities than the SAAMI .458 Lott when all are loaded to same pressure.

I SWAG that the SAAMI .458 WM throat gives about 5000 psi lower pressure than the .458 B&M
when both are loaded to the same net capacity with the same bullet and powder charge.
This is no doubt related to how the .458 B&M with 20″ barrel equals the SAAMI .458 WM with 24″ barrel.
Just sayin’.



Seems like 70 gr of RL-7 (latest lot) is a lot like 80 grains of AA-2230 (post 2016)
in MV results, and I am SWAGging pressures will be lower with the AA-2230.

Barrel rifling differences considered too:
80-g charge of AA-2230 in the .458 WM
400-gr GSC HV loaded to COL of 3.395″
Fired same day, 55*F:

23″ McGowen barrel >>> 2511 fps MV (0.4580″ groove diameter, 1:14″ twist, 6-groove, stainless)




25″ Shilen barrel >>> 2527 fps MV (0.4585″ groove diameter, 1:14″ twist, 6-groove, stainless)

Measuring bore diameters is above my paygrade. Have to take to gunsmith with pin gauges in .0005″ increments
for estimate of that.

My .458 B&M+W barrel: 19.75″ PAC-NOR (0.4580″ groove diameter, 1:10″ twist, 8-groove, stainless)
With the minimum-spec groove diameter it is not a slow barrel.
Faster twist and 8-groove instead of 6-groove will have minimal effects on MV and pressure, I suspect.

Here is a pic of the 125-gr/.257-cal Hammer bullet (the one with 7 bands)
next to another variety of Hammer.
PDR wavelengths do vary if they are both Hammers.
It still hope for 0.100" wavelength on the .458 Flathead Hammer solid.
To reduce bearing surface with fewer bands would require less convenient crimping locations.
If 7 bands works on the 447-gr Shock Hammer HP,
Surely 6 or 7 of them at 0.100" intervals, starting about a half inch back from the meplat will be possible.

Thank you Sir Ron for all of that marvelous work! Unbeatable, and from a Ruger No.1 (like mine)! I'm persuaded to get a fresh can of AA2460. I have new boxes of the 600 Barnes, 550 Woodleigh and 500 DGX, 2460 should be the right medicine for those!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

A lot of great work done here! These Hammer Bullet's sure are interesting.

I'm thinking the true test after all the Scientific experimentation from the Square tables Members,
that the true test might be from Sir Jerry's Limpopo Adventure, coming up.

Staying tuned!

You bet Sir Ron, near impossible to top, great works Sir!

Sir Tony, i'd have to get the okay from Sir Ron to order a box or two and try the 400gr Hammer bullets, i promised him i'd use the lifetime supply he so graciously gave me of 450gr TSX's at 2418 fps on buffalo this fall, that said, i'd happily give them a go if no one else has tested them yet, there's a spot up at the little bush camp on The Limpopo river a man can look dew North as far as the eye can see into Botswana, standing in the same spot looking to the North/Northeast one can see the mountains in Zimbabwe, some uninformed jackwad on here that said all of South Africa was under fence picked the wrong week to stop huffing paint ; ]...........again...

There's no telling what may come strolling into that camp, if i can find a 40+ inch buffalo, the Great 458 WM+ will get the job! lying in bed at night hearing the Bushbuck bark, Lions, Hyenas and Elephant cracking trees like they were toothpicks causes a chill to run down ones spine, GOOD STUFF my Friend.

Sir Jerry,
Yes Sir good Stuff indeed! You don't need me to tell you what to Shoot! LOL! As I'm sure your more than Equipped and ready to roll on your trip to the Great and Wonderful Limpopo.
Having all the confidence in your weapon, and what your feeding it, as you are well aware of, is what it's all about! Most people only dream of a hunt and adventure of such great Magnatude.
As far as any negative comments coming from unauthorized Jack in the Boxes, well,we'll just ignore that negative stuff as there's enough of that in the Fake Media B.S.!!!!!!!!
We're positive people here and gonna keep it Rolling forward in the right Direction as you'll bring back some amazing stories, and the Wifey's documented accounts will make for some great reading!

Stay Healthy All!

Sir Tony