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Severe is also fairly subjective. Some people were bad and admitted to hospitals, some weren't. Some weren't all that bad and admitted to hospitals and some weren't. There was no singular and repeatable SOP for defining a severe case or not and it varied from hospital to hospital.

The data is "dirty" for lack of a better word and that's the problem. I'm not saying it's false - just that it's not clean.

Not angry. I can have a spirited discussion without getting emotional .

I’ll take the time to type up an answer tonight. I hate typing out long posts on my phone

Yeah, it's not as clean as we would like it, but no, it's pretty clean data.

The reason is that people who weren't severely ill were not admitted to hospital, because there were NO hospital beds for people who weren't severely ill. To get admitted to my hospital during the Delta outbreak, you had to be 1)hypoxic (SaO2 below 80% at rest), 2) Covid-positive by serologic testing, and 3) have clear findings of Covid pneumonia on chest xray. These were not subjective criteria. If you didn't have all 3, you were sent home. I sent home SCORES of people on Ivermecting+budesonide+Luvox+ASA who had positive PCR serology and Covid pneumonia on chest xray. We didn't have beds to put them in, so they were sent home. Fortunately, the outpatient treatment regimen worked for them, or they just got better on their own. This applied through the entire Delta outbreak from around July 1, when our cases went from 5-10 per day to 100+ per day in our ER in a matter of less than a week, and persisted until mid to late October.

So the clear benefit to vaccination to preventing severe infection is borne out by that data. Dirty data, perhaps to some degree, but epidemic data is all dirty. These are pretty clean in that context.

JC.... I've got your idiot butt on "ignore", but local dirt quoted you and I was HOPING someone would bring this up. And yes, I am a good dude, and I am demonstrably smarter than you.

So, if I'm responsible for multiple deaths and injuries from "pushing the vax"... can you name one? Go ahead, look it up in the Texas Medical Board complaints list... has anyone lodged a complaint against me for having suffered an adverse event from a vaccine that I recommended?

Sorry, you can't, because it hasn't happened.

But since we are all playing nicely together in this little sandbox, let's look at it in our own neighborhood... has anyone on here died because I recommended the vaccine in 2021? (Keep in mind that I'm not recommending it at all since late 2021, if that matters to you.)

Because there is at least one death that the idiots on this forum contributed to, whether you like it or not.

I suppose your ego needs that conformation.

Also I suppose ego is what drives such high medical malpractice insurance prices.


Anyone else you might drag into this to help you out?

Maybe get EE's family involved? Conference call type.

To even bring EE up in this thread is ridiculous. No one knows the cause of death as far as I know. The medical field never distinguished die from covid or with covid

Interesting pair of comments, and I'd like to point this out.

FIRST, as Jorge says, everything we do is based on a risk vs reward judgment. EVERYTHING. But most of the time we do this subconsciously, if at all. Living in a modern world where tasks are shared among a multitude of specializations, most of the things we do have the risk/reward equation taken out of them before we get to them. You flip a light switch and it comes on, and you do it without a conscious thought.. the action doesn't electrocute you, the house doesn't blow up, and so forth, all because other people spent a lot of time and effort to figure out the risk/reward equation for everyone else and made it "safe". Most adults in America have no idea how electricity works, let alone how to wire a house, and even those who know how to wire a house are almost all clueless as to how the components of the circuit are manufactured, or the specifics of electrical power generation and transmission. This is all done for us so we don't have to worry about them, for our convenience. So we can worry about more important things, like whether the Democrats really stole the 2020 election.

When it comes to medical care, virtually all present-day humans are equally ignorant of the specifics of medicine as they are of the electrical systems in their homes. A few have a better understanding through their education and their urge to be as aware of the realities of medical decisions as they can be, and I applaud them for that, but again: these people have no more understanding of the underpinnings of the "shot" they get in their doctor's office than they have of the way hydroelectric power generation stations are made, or how to manufacture the components involved.

Folks on here get pizzed off at me for telling them they haven't got the education and understanding to make informed opinions on major medical questions, but I know quite well that they aren't smart enough or trained enough or well-read enough to begin to grasp the complexities of these questions. This is not an insult, it's a statement of reality.

Hell, the majority of doctors I know do not have the resources to understand all the complex nuances of these questions!

And by the way, I have to say I'm not much beyond that larger group of docs despite the fact that I have an advanced degree past medical school and am hooked up with a lot of people who are waay smarter than me on these topics... but even they are not confident that the answers on these questions are available to us yet.

Soooo... this reality impacts on the SECOND comment (above). In reality, most people don't know if ANY treatment given by their doctor is good, bad, or indifferent. The plain fact is that the underlying science for anything, even a simple antibiotic prescription to clear up your kid's ear infection, is beyond the ability of most people to fathom. And truthfully, again, most doctors don't even have a grasp of that science. They just know this has been the "standard of care" for a while, and even though there are risks associated with it, they go ahead with treating your kid with a Rx for amoxicillin even though they know full well it might kill him. Yes, the risk is incredibly small, but it's real, and every year kids in America die from antibiotic use. But they have decided, and YOU have decided, that the risk/reward equation is justifiable.

There are lots of drugs/treatments that people assent to every day that carry grave risks. Every person with atrial fibrillation who takes Plavix to prevent an ischemic stroke is told that there is a risk that it could cause a hemorrhagic stroke if you sustain a head injury, or mortal internal bleeding if you get in a car wreck. How many of those people demand to see the data? So far, I have never had a single patient ask me for the references.

People accept all manner of potentially dangerous medical treatments every day without making a fuss because they "don't know the data" and can't make an informed risk/reward assessment. So forgive me if I find the people demanding the full data for the Covid vaccines in the present day. I'm not saying that the data should be hidden from you, y'unnastand, I'm just saying it's more than a bit inconsistent.

Now, as for the Covid vaccines, the risk/reward calculation is still be computed. Yeah, Pfizer gave us some numbers that were probably fudged, and so did Moderna, and Astra-Zeneca, and Johnson & Johnson, but the Powers That Be looked at the risk of NOT releasing these vaccines in terms of unknown thousands/millions of deaths from SARS-CoV2, and they decided to release the vaccines. At this point, NOBODY knows if the risk was worth the reward. The numbers aren't all in yet. The damage that COULD have been done by the virus in 2021 without mass vaccination was enormous. The damage that it ACTUALLY did was still pretty bad, despite the Luddites here who continue to claim that it was just another form of "the flu".

I know there are medical scientists at WHO that questioned the origins of the SARS-CoV2 pandemic in January of 2020, and they are in the majority there. The political bosses at WHO keep them muffled, but they have spoken out in the medical literature and in the popular press... they are convinced the virus came from a lab. They even say that they know WHICH lab (it wasn't in Wuhan, btw). But the public isn't being informed of this in any meaningful way by the Corporate Media.

Similarly, the number-cruncher epidemiologists at CDC and their counterpart organizations in other nations are far more confident of the numbers of deaths FROM Covid (as opposed to WITH Covid) but their work isn't getting out into the public domain because the political entities they work under control that information.

HOWEVER: the way that the scientific community works and shares information makes it impossible for the real data to reside in obscurity for long. We will have numbers, in good time. And then we will be able to say with some confidence that the

In all fairness to Bart, I was never mad at him, I knew he was having major health issues.

But that's your hospitals criteria based upon their local bed situation which may be very different than a hospital in Green Bay or Chicago or Portland. That's why I say the data is dirty - Who couldn't be hospitalized for you, might easily be somewhere else.

Locally for me they kept reporting that they were full and couldn't take anymore. The reality was they had the beds, they didn't have the staff which is different and artificial scarcity of beds when saying "we're full" - They were full because they had been downsizing or sending people home early and I got that information from my ex-wife who was/is a nurse in said hospital who had no reason to lie to me. Confirmed with one of my guys who also had his wife working there as well.

Ethan was smarter than the doctor and quite capable of making his own decisions.

Ethan was smarter than the doctor and quite capable of making his own decisions.

[bleep] but im tired of all the "superior" people who never err.

Um, actually he probably wasn't, all kidding aside. My smarts have stacked up pretty well against some awfully smart people in the real world. EE was pretty smart, though, I never said or implied that he was stupid.

As for your assertions of superiority, you're pretty much a broken record, counselor. I'm sure you're pretty smart in your field, but in mine you wouldn't last ten minutes. But that's OK, I'm used to being talked down to by self-important lawyers when they come to my ER, it happens all the time. It's a common theme among the members of your profession. I don't take it personally.

Um, actually he probably wasn't, all kidding aside. My smarts have stacked up pretty well against some awfully smart people in the real world. EE was pretty smart, though, I never said or implied that he was stupid.

As for your assertions of superiority, you're pretty much a broken record, counselor. I'm sure you're pretty smart in your field, but in mine you wouldn't last ten minutes. But that's OK, I'm used to being talked down to by self-important lawyers when they come to my ER, it happens all the time. It's a common theme among the members of your profession. I don't take it personally.

I suppose your ego needs that conformation.

Also I suppose ego is what drives such high medical malpractice insurance prices.


Anyone else you might drag into this to help you out?

Maybe get EE's family involved? Conference call type.