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Prove his Dogs???? The proof is people pay more than a little to hunt Wild Birds over his Dogs. They either prove themselves to a high “Standard” over many Wild coveys over the course of a long season…or they give their dollars to someone who does.

His Dogs are not “point stealing, break chasing, out of control idiots.”

His “Standards” are obviously something that don’t tell you about in class. As he mentioned, in addition to training, Birds make a Dog….and his most likely see more of the real thing in a day, than a year of your tests.

Nothing wrong with NAVHDA, however it doesn’t come close to perhaps 20 coveys morning and 20 more in the evening. Along with picking up the singles. Your tests don’t even begin to compare to that level of quality work.


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I'd be willing to bet most "paying customers" wouldn't know what a good bird dog was if it bit them in the ass. Exposure to game is great but doesn't always equate to training or how a dog acts/handles or what traits a dog has or doesn't have.

Ranch/preserve dogs are among the most out of control dogs I've ever had the displeasure of hunting over.

40 coveys a day? That I'd have to see 1st hand lol

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15 to 20 AM and PM was the norm at the place I hunted in Georgia. All Wild, 15000 acres with an estimated 5-7 Birds per acre. It’s a big world out there.

Give Texas Quail enough rain and they will blossom out of the ground.

Last edited by battue; 05/23/22.

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battue,



Like every place else some years we have more birds than others, but our average hunt we will put up
10 covey's,


every 2 hours, many people can't walk much more than that, we do not chase singles, we go find another covey, depends on the hunters we will hunt as hard as they want to hunt as long as they want to hunt, a lot of our hunts are social events, and depends on how hard the people over train at night after supper, some just don't make it in the morning, some are sure enough hunters, and are waiting gun in hand when we show up with the dogs early in the morning, getting back to dogs, you would be amazed at the number of people that want to buy 1 or more of our dogs, the only thing our dogs win is, good care -- good dog -- good petting. Rio7

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I hunted Pineland Plantation...averages 7 coveys per hour...It sure was fun while it lasted. laugh And one couldn't ask for a nicer group of people. They even let my past Springer "Abby" have the job of putting the coveys up...

https://talltimbers.org/fall-field-day-at-pineland-plantation-draws-large-crowd/

Last edited by battue; 05/23/22.

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Ghostman, I am not responsible for your lack of experience, i don't think you would know a good hunting dog, if it bit you in the ass, and i am sure you have never been on a real Quail hunt, with dogs out riders,and good shooters, one things for sure your a expert, and know more than people that hunt every day. "them that can do, them that can't talk about it" your a good talker. Rio7.

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Enjoyed reading this discussion, thanks. And I WAS going to say that even with a few differing opinions, I really like that the tape measures haven't come out all that much... but I see a few Stanleys warming up now...

I've looked into force fetching in a couple very specific situations... 1.) A ball spitter; fetch crazy dog. Great material to work with, but I need pup to look at ME and listen ME, not just lose his mind about the next one coming up. 2.) A player. Stopping short, tossing birds into the air, rolling on them, plucking, etc. FF has the same effect, makes them look to me to finish the job. 3.) Timid or overly submissive dog fetching around other (fetch crazy?) dogs, FF makes them more determined to get all the way to me before allowing me or any other dog to take their fetch from them.
Other than those, and similar situations, I think it's kinda like Public Schools... teaching to the tests. Sure, they can pass the test, but how employable are they!?!? My Dad used to say that schoolwork would "teach you to think..." I don't know if he'd say that anymore. Sadly. Best dogs think on their feet, AND listen when directed.
I have nothing against the clubs and associations, in fact I wish I had the time to participate in one or a few of them. I'd love investing time in trials and dog testing associations. But I have random minutes of spare time at this point, say nothing about random weekends or weeks to wonder what to do with. Maybe someday.

My two cents, E-collars are awesome. (Nothing cruel about them. I've tested them on myself, and hit myself harder in the tweaked back with a "tens unit" than they did.) It's simply a hearing aid for a dog. Getting their attention is the only requirement, and they work great.


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Originally Posted by RIO7
battue,



Like every place else some years we have more birds than others, but our average hunt we will put up
10 covey's,


every 2 hours,
many people can't walk much more than that, we do not chase singles, we go find another covey, depends on the hunters we will hunt as hard as they want to hunt as long as they want to hunt, a lot of our hunts are social events, and depends on how hard the people over train at night after supper, some just don't make it in the morning, some are sure enough hunters, and are waiting gun in hand when we show up with the dogs early in the morning, getting back to dogs, you would be amazed at the number of people that want to buy 1 or more of our dogs, the only thing our dogs win is, good care -- good dog -- good petting. Rio7

It most certainly is a big world...


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Rainshadow....Agree. We can disagree on our training methods. However, no need to question another's experience when they don't know the other....

Use a shock collar, and now there are ones with GPS location...I would rather not hunt if the Dog wasn't wearing one.

Addition..To be clear, Ghostman started it with his "Weekend Warrior and hunting with your pet" remark..

Last edited by battue; 05/23/22.

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I visited Finn at school yesterday.
He's looking great, and weighing in at 80 pounds at close to 8 months old.
He's on the table, working on "Hold"....
The trainer, and Finn.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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As I understand it, the original question was "how important is force fetch training to making a good bird dog," or something to that effect (staying on topic is not a strength of some forum participants). I can only offer my own amateur experience, which is that I have refused to force fetch a pup despite assurances that I would regret it...for the last 21 years. I'll admit that it's a small sample set, but the lab and two wirehairs in question have not, in fact, refused to retrieve in hunting situations as I was promised/warned/threatened. In point of fact they have retrieved birds including geese, turkeys, and a swan to hand at heel. I haven't hunted cranes yet, but my humble response to your question is that if your dog will retrieve without being subjected to physical or psychological pain, why introduce it? Others may have different experiences, which I will proactively grant validity. Just my two cents' worth (I won't maim a quail either. We're hunters, not sadists).


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Do you like cheese with your whine?🤣


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Have never shot a Quail with out maiming it. Rio7

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Originally Posted by RIO7
Have never shot a Quail with out maiming it. Rio7

He "Grants Validity" to those that do....while considering them to be sadists. ....Addition: if using live Birds...Interesting bit of logic...

Last edited by battue; 05/29/22.

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I consider crippling a captive bird from a pen unnecessary to train bird dogs.

"We can disagree on our training methods. However, no need to question another's experience when they don't know the other...."


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Originally Posted by MonkeyWrench
I consider crippling a captive bird from a pen unnecessary to train bird dogs.

"We can disagree on our training methods. However, no need to question another's experience when they don't know the other...."

Great quote...made without calling someone who does it different a sadist... wink.

In addition you mentioned you were "threatened" by others that your Dog would not be a reliable retriever. While I believe is is not necessary to FF, I was thinking what threats were made against you? Seems kind of serious from here.Warnings and promises are one thing...Threats up the situation???? A little exaggeration perhaps????


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I was threatened that if I didn't force train my dogs, a really unhappy old man with questionable reading comprehension faculties whom I have never met would stalk me on a hunting blog directing internally contradictory and/or tautological invectives my way. Well, son of a bitch!

I said that I view the unnecessary dispensation of pain on helpless animals as sadistic. If it gets your blood flowing, more power to you.

What kind of cheese? I imagine you as a velveeta guy, perhaps alongside some potted meat product in a basement room with one light bulb dangling from a cord? Are you going with the bargain saltines or did you splurge on some Ritz crackers?


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More made up BS.... laugh


Remember this, or did you conveniently forget????...I was out, until you tried to get another weak dig in..Hiiillaaarious...you old stalker laugh

Originally Posted by MonkeyWrench
(staying on topic is not a strength of some forum participants)..

Addition: Without my help you continually prove you are are not all that up on Bird Dogs...No sense of me showing what you do so well...Bye!!!

Last edited by battue; 05/29/22.

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Back to our regular programming...I did come across a you tube video where a trainer was using the "hold" method on a comeback pad. It was working well and I didn't see where any unnecessary pain was involved.

Last edited by battue; 05/29/22.

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