Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Question for the holy guys

You don't realise that evidence is proof, and confirms a proposition. You see stuff that you think is evidence, but without a valid proposition, it's just stuff without a valid proposition. You claim it's evidence for your invalid proposition.

You showed me a picture of a guy in a dress and I showed you a picture of a middle eastern man. If I saw a guy in a dress why would I think it was Jesus? Was he a renowned cross-dresser that loved the white make-up?


If there is an all powerful, loving god, he/she/it would surely be able to make him/her/itself known to all beyond any shadow of a doubt - this has never happened.

Comment about the blather above as written and posted earlier by mauserand9mm:
"You got proof of this? Not just what was written (people can write anything - doesn't even have to be true)" That smells like self-description.

And, that last sentence above in red is a prime example of desperation - a ridiculous attempt at example - too silly to take seriously. Get relevant. And you say "defensive"?

When Jesus and His guys were way north of Jerusalem, in what is nowadays Syria, on their way to Caesarea Philippi, He asked them what was the word on the street about Him…? They gave various answers, and then He asked His guys who they thought He was…?

Peter in particular responded that he thought Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of the living God. And Jesus confirmed that He was indeed. And on that declaration (which Jesus referred to as a rock) of Peter’s, He said He’d build His ekklesia…His movement, His congregation, His gathering, His assembly…and that the gates of Hades would not overcome it.

He made it clear that He was starting something new and that death itself would not overcome it. His death wouldn’t stop it, and none of their deaths would stop it either. What they were about to begin together, this new movement, nothing was gonna stop it.

Rome wasn’t fond of people who started new movements, and the Jewish Temple wasn’t fond of people who started new movements. And they were all aware of what happened to people who started new movements. And it happened to Jesus.

And some of those same men who were with Him when these things happened would later document why His death was not the death of the movement. And the reason His death wasn’t the death of the movement was because Jesus didn’t do what other dead people do.

He did not stay dead…!

Sounds a lot like you got nothing.

Mauserand9mm=[quote/]
You don't realise that evidence is proof, and confirms a proposition. You see stuff that you think is evidence, but without a valid proposition, it's just stuff without a valid proposition. You claim it's evidence for your invalid proposition.[quote/]

Evidence will never be 100% — there’s always the chance that everything you think you know turns out to be false — but the evidence allows you to make current-best-evidence-guesses….We can build up piles and piles of evidence for ideas. When the pile reaches a certain height, it behooves us to begin to take it rather seriously. That is, until someone removes a critical piece from the bottom of the pile, and the entire edifice comes crashing down.

Proof is the final verdict that removes all doubts, whereas evidence only leads one in the direction of a fact or statement....now, as for me, because of all the evidence, I am a true believer.

What you define as evidence is actually data. You claim as evidence because you have a preconcieved belief of a god, and are therefore ascribing the data as evidence of god. You have to prove a god exists first and then prove the data is a result of the god's actions, irrespective of how much data you have.

Just look up the meaning of evidence.

You are trying to make the data fit the god belief. This is just what the bible writers did, except they fabicated stories to try and make it fit - just look at how many things they got wrong as our understanding of the natural world grew. God never told them, they were bullcrapping.

Saying God is detectable doesn't make it so.

If God was detectable, we would not be having this dispute.

If God was detectable, the whole world would accept the existence of God like they do the existence of anything that is detectable and has been detected.

What you refer to is your own subjective experiences based on what you believe.

Hebrews 11:1 does not refer to external, objective evidence as a foundation for belief, it tells us that faith is its own justification.

''Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.'' - Hebrews 11:1 equates to ''belief that is not based on proof''

You say that there is evidence, but what you mean is subjective experience, which is an expression of faith.

Probability. Given an absence of evidence and plenty of claims. How likely is that Allah exists and Mohammad was His prophet? How likely is it that Brahman manifests the Universe and is all that exists? You know that God is not believed to be the same even in Abrahamic faiths? Christianity has Jesus as the son of God, sacrificed himself for the sin sin of mankind, etc, Judaism does not have this belief. It can't all be true.

Well, you are still wrong. You keep going back to a dictionary definition of faith and yet the general discussion regards “faith” as set forth in the Bible. You are apparently unprepared to discuss biblical faith. No surprise there.

Your comment on Hebrews 11:1:is simply incomprehensible. Faith is not it’s own justification. Just more bafflegab on your part.

You are also still wrong about God being not being detectable. Jesus performed many miracles during his earthly ministry and yet the Pharisees denied him and continued to reject Him. He was definitely “detectable” but no, He was still rejected. In the same way, even if Jesus walked among us today, I suspect you would find reason to reject.

To a certain extent, you are doing the same as the Pharisees……. The evidence of God is all around us and the ministry of the Holy Spirit is active and ongoing. But…. You are like the Pharisee that denies God. The Pharisees had the Old Testament writings that they seemingly ignored…. And then they had Jesus in their midst and yet denied Him.

I am pretty sure you will not do it…..your mind seems to be closed…. but your own investigation into why the Pharisees rejected Jesus may be instructive.


Btw… God is indeed “detectable” …… Seek and Find….. Don’t seek, Don’t Find……

Seemingly you and MM are both choosing “Don’t Seek”…… do not be fooled, this is a choice.

Well, you are the one that made the claim that “other religions” claim the same “indwelling of God.”

Can you back up your statement or not?

Go ahead, give it a try….

Pretty much answers most any question of Faith

What has this to do with Mauserand9mm claim that evidence is proof???

No, I was not trying to make it fit the God belief....you state that evidence is proof....I said you are wrong in that proof is the final verdict that removes all doubts, whereas evidence only leads one in the direction of a fact or statement....then I added, as for me, because of all the evidence (leading me in the direction of a fact) (but no PROOF), I choose to be a believer....you say evidence is proof and I say you are wrong....it is simple, leave the God factor out, and it is very simple even more...evidence is not proof.

Evidence that demands a verdict:

Josh McDowell Book

This guy was a big time Atheist who turned into a believer after realizing his opinion wasn't based on facts.

Atheists who search for the truth eventually find it and become transformed in the process.

Ask and you will receive. Seek and you will find. It's your life, choose wisely.

The faith of Jesus’ original followers was anchored to the reality of the physical, literal, in-history resurrection of Jesus. And they didn’t give their lives because of what they believed. People give their lives because of what they believe all the time. They gave their lives because of what they saw. And since their faith was anchored to that, does it make sense that our faith should be anchored to that as well…?

If Jesus rose from the dead, then it’s game flippin’ on…!

And if He didn’t, then none of it matters anyway. Period.

Skeptics, especially those with a clear and biased agenda, choose the Bible…over and over and over…as the battleground for the faith of Christianity.

To me, the question that believers should wrestle to the ground is not is the whole Bible literally true and without error…?

To me, the question that believers should wrestle to the ground is simply did or did not Jesus rise from the dead…?

The epic culture shaping story of Christianity did not begin with a book; it began with an event.

When Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimethea removed Jesus’ lifeless body from the cross, there we no longer any believers. Zero. They all quit believing.

But nobody excepted no body.

The faith of Christianity didn’t begin in Genesis. It began on Easter morning. And not because somebody read something. But because some people saw something.

Christianity’s uniqueness is that it’s rooted in history. In an event. The event of the resurrection was the beginning of Christianity. Christianity doesn’t hang in the balance of whether the 66 different books of the Bible can all be proven to be literally true. Christianity hangs on a single event. Period.

Apostle Paul made it crystal clear when he said that if Jesus has not been raised from the dead, then all of our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

It all rises and falls on the death and resurrection of Jesus. Period. If He rose from the dead, then game on. And if He didn’t, then we’re wasting our time.

The faith of Christianity is anchored to that single, solitary event. It was for Jesus’ original followers. And it makes sense to me that our faith should be anchored to that as well.

No I didn't.


Don't need to, I never made that statement.


Not Applicable - refer above.


You religious dudes are funny buggers - you read between the lines and totally ignore the lines. Your mind is your self-contained source of befuddlement, and that's no bafflegab.

Evidence is proof. It only becomes evidence of x when x has been proven to be true. Before that it is just exhibit, data or observations. I did the Google hard yards for you:





I think you've been watching too many lawyer shows on TV. They sometimes use the term "evidence" along with the accusation of guilt but that's just a supposition - if the supposition is false then the "evidence" isn't actually evidence and never was.


You're just collecting the data and pretending it's potential evidence for your belief in Allah, or space apes or whatever you are wanting to believe in, as if it provides more credibility to your belief. It's only leading you to where you want to go and isn't actually leading you anywhere at all. It's more of a mental masturbation exercise than anything. Why are you trying so hard to convince yourself of your faith - it just takes one big leap I would've thought.

You are bigly wrong...First, you were telling me I'm trying to make a fit for God, and now you say I'm watching too many lawyer shows...again, evidence will never be 100% — there’s always the chance that everything you think you know turns out to be false — but the evidence allows you to make current-best-evidence-guesses…. We can build up piles and piles of evidence for ideas. When the pile reaches a certain height, it behooves us to begin to take it rather seriously. That is, until someone removes a critical piece from the bottom of the pile, and the entire edifice comes crashing down.....here is an image from Wikipedia, maybe it will help you see better regarding evidence vs proof....



Wikipedia and I are in agreement....

There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Our righteousness is not of ourselves. It comes from being in Christ. Joined to Him by faith, through grace.

Those who claim some sort of practical holiness/obedience to some set of laws is required for salvation, my only question is "how much"? 90% conformance? 99%? 100%?

Yeah, 100% conformance. And the only way we can achieve that is if Christ's 100% is applied to our account....imputed to us.

Not going to happen by our hand.

This is what I believe the Bible teaches. We are completely dependent upon God for our salvation...from start to finish. We do labor regarding our sanctification, however!!