In a thread last week at least two people mentioned good works. One professing that they did good works and the other quoting the book of James, intimating that a Christian is to be focused on doing good works.

It is undeniable that in American Christian Theology most churches teach good works, following the law/Ten Commandments, as a way to please God. This message is anchored in the idea that there is an impact on someone’s salvation and standing with God in direct relation to performing good works.

I have a question for those that hold this view. The question is based on the scriptural truth that there is no one on this earth who is righteous. This mornings responsive reading was from Psalms 143. The words drew my thoughts back to the statements made last week.

Psalm 143:2

[2] Enter not into judgment with your servant,
for no one living is righteous before you.

This confession of David, “a man after God’s own heart” and echoed throughout scripture, quite famously in Romans 3,

How are you guys who claim righteousness and or holiness, either primarily or secondarily, measuring it? What is the evidence or actions in your life by which you measure the claim?

Romans 7:18
New International Version
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Happy Crapstar should be along shortly to cut and paste some verses

We are not under the Law, we are under Grace.

Good works are great, they are not the Way to Salvation.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly. Grace leads to gratitude, humility, and repentance for those who have experienced it.

Grace is the hallmark of the Jesus experience. Grace is God knew everything about you and chose to love you anyway. Grace is there are no secrets from your Heavenly Father and He refuses not to call you one of His children. Grace is you don’t deserve it, you can’t deserve it, the word deserve isn’t even considered. Grace is grace. And the moment you start trying to ‘earn’ it, in ‘any’ way, you have done away with grace. Grace is a gift.

I truly feel that extending grace to other people is the greatest opportunity that we’ll ever have, relationally, while we’re on this earth. We are most like Jesus when we are extending grace to other people.

I came across upon, Through the Bible, with Les Feldick. Les, "Gets", It.

A Gentleman Church of the Nazrine Minister told me to look this up.

Back in the old days, charity came from the community and church.

Not the .gov.

So it was in your best interest to “do good works”.


Also, I’m of the thought good works and being humble go hand in hand.

Doing good and seeking recognition kinda cancel each out.....

By the way, I'm not, Holy, only God Jesus is Holy.

You covered a lot of ground in this post. I will share my views but it will have to come “bite sized.”

To start with, I have never been in a church where the focus was on good works…. Not one. Your statement may be correct, but that is not my experience. Jesus first, good works come second or even third. In my view, there is no amount of “good work” that will ever earn anyone the right nor even privilege … nor sufficient favor from God….to enter into God’s heaven at their death.

Your statement about “most churches teach good works…Ten Commandment as a way to please God” requires some clarification. If one is “born of the Spirit” then one might be correct to say that God would be pleased with good works….…as long as these good works are done in the right spirit and not done to bring credit to the one doing the good work. Some will do good works to enhance their own reputation….ie “…. To be seen by men…”. This is not pleasing to God and I not be surprised if God counts them as nothing.

I will comment on the other issues you raised later in the day…. Gotta go now.

TF

Works equate to reaping and sowing. Give and it shall be given unto you. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. I'd not try to obtain salvation by works. One read through the new testament, and a man could clearly understand this. They asked Jesus how to do the works of God. He replied, believe on the one who he (God) has sent. I'm not interested in the great white throne judgment. I wouldn't fare very well.

The Thief on the Cross, presumably, did not have enough time left for good works, yet Jesus said, “today you will be with me in paradise.” He was saved by faith in Christ.

Much earlier, Abraham “was considered righteous because of his faith”. Later, in the NT, Paul taught we are saved by faith alone through grace. This was rediscovered in the Reformation by Luther and others — one of the solas of the Reformation is “Sola Fide” — by faith alone.

But, as James taught, a real faith then results in good works. A believer will seek to do these out of a thankful heart. While good works will not get one to paradise, they will result in rewards once there through faith.

But, salvation is by faith alone through grace.

In Leviticus God told His people to be holy as He is holy.

In Hebrews the Bible says without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Holiness is the standard of God for His people. He doesn’t change to for the generation. Every knee will bow to Him.

The Romans 7 passage is powerful as long as we remember that when the Bible was penned there were no chapters or verses. You can’t grasp the fullness of chapter 7 until you get to the regeneration of chapter 8. There is no condemnation to those who do not walk according to the flesh. Galatians lists the works of the flesh.

Before you curse me out in the name of religion. Hear this: I want all people living to go to Heaven. I know to make it there we will have to submit to God and obey His Word.

As for the “good works” theology. Bible people that accept the fullness of Christ don’t believe nor teach that anyone is saved by good works. We also don’t try to explain away John 15:14 nor any of James.

When I read the Bible I see a holy God delivering a lost people and commanding them to be holy as well. He then regenerates us by His Spirit so that we can obey. (Romans 8:11)

Think of it this way: if God was truly happy with a would full of sinners, why did Jesus need to die? He already had that world.

Jesus came that we might have life and that more abundantly.

Blessings on you!

Some folks don't realize they need Salvation, sometimes we have to hit bottom like John Newton.

Good post.

To keep focus, the question is not meant to open up a conversation about good works theology. The question is rather specific. There are more than a few guys on this forum who recently and historically have emphasized good works as a necessity for salvation.

A primary underlying principle of this teaching is that one either works with God or alone to “be holy”.

For those who hold to this view how do you measure your good works, your successfulness in completing good works and how do you assess God’s measurement of your good works?

"Claim" (?) righteousness?
No sir, you can't "claim" it.

You don't keep "evidence" of good works.
There is no way to "measure" righteousness.
God keeps those records(?).

Ok, I will stick as close as I can to your query….

1. “Good works” are simply NOT a necessity for salvation. In it’s simplest form, this is a false and unbiblical teaching. The “underlying principle”…. that one “either works with God or alone”….. to “be holy” is a wrongheaded, untrue and biblically unsupported premise.

2. - Having said that, you are correct in your observation that there are those who do indeed “measure” their own good works. They will make a “judgment” or reach a conclusion about how they will fare when God does the judging. With only a few exceptions, these folks will do a “mind review” of their goods deeds and do a further “mind review” of their own good intentions and right attitudes…. THEN, they assess…. Themselves…..as being “worthy.”

Be sure to see here that they are making huge assumptions about how God will judge…. They assume their own judgment of themselves will a match for God’s judgments and God will be “ok” with them.

Won’t work out that way.

Jesus himself speaks of this……”Depart from me, I never knew you…”

This is pretty much what I believe and I might add, if you are truly a believer, people will notice it without you having to tell them. They will notice there is something different about you, that sets you apart from others. Good works are done voluntarily to glorify God, not to call attention to yourself.

We tend to over think, "It".

Not your guy - the only thing holy about me is that old favorite pair of wool hunting socks. I am given the gift of salvation by Grace.

But, from a thankful and grateful heart I do try to walk the Christian talk and do good works for others where there seems to be worthwhile opportunity. I fail more than succeed, but keep trying.

Maybe some failures are due to a human trait to place such efforts where they will do the most good (after all, I am 3/4 Scot) - probably too much quest for efficacy. Successes might be enhanced by reducing discrimination among opportunities - looks like I need more growth.

I love it.

I remember walking into church many a time right before service officially started while Amazing Grace played.

A lot of nonbelievers will try to brand believers that make mistakes as hypocrites. What most Christians understand is that we all have shortcomings and make mistakes daily. It’s about believing and trying in good faith to do the best that we can. Believing in God and striving to do what the Bible teaches will smooth out some of our rough edges but it absolutely doesn’t make us perfect or change our core personalities.

I think I understand the question and get where the OP is coming from.

In many Protestant churches I’ve attended and from which I’ve heard sermons they’re quick to take away with the left hand what the right hand gives in the much-cited “solas” of the reformation.

That is, they’ll say “salvation can’t be earned it’s only by grace” and then, if not explicitly then implicitly, “so now that you’ve been regenerated & justified by grace, get to work on yer sanctification” or “if you were grateful for the grace shown you you’d be nicer to people…” or some such.

I asked a long time friend yesterday while we were fishing whether he thought his Christianity (that is, the gift he received of the HS) has helped him become holier or just to see his sin more clearly. He said the latter and I agree.

The Gospel is supposed to allow us to gratefully rest in Christ’s finished and perfect work on our behalf, and that’s why it’s to be received week after week in the preaching and sacraments. Those who preach “Gospel! And then you better…” rob the saint of his rest whether they separate salvation from this equation or not.

There is a TRUE theology of the cross and those false ones of glory. There is no glory for us; it is all God’s.

Of course I'm a hypocrite, not that I want to be.

Amen!
📖🙂👍

"holy and reverend is his name.

Psalm 111

There is a contradiction between Peter and Paul.

How so?

The Parable of the Good Samaritan.

I'm only stopping in to see who considers themselves a "holy guy."

LOL

You wouldn't know Leviticus from an ear of corn.

Speaking of retards...

word

Good to see you here, glad you chose to join.

Several things, in this instance faith and works/faith alone.  

"...a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24).

''For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." - Ephesians.

Peter IMO was the most “human” of the disciples. At his best he showed great courage. At his worst he had a short fuse and the doubts that we all sometimes have.

While amped up on adrenaline and loyalty towards Jesus he tried splitting the Roman soldiers scull with a broadsword but was a fisherman by trade and so was off center and only managed to lop off an ear. Later that night alone and with the adrenaline gone he denied knowing Jesus.

Peter was wrong in the sense that he was interfering in a plan that was already in place and that he didn’t fully understand it even if he should have. On the other hand I believe that Bible teaches for men to be loyal and fight when called for. Men should be slow to anger and seeking vengeance but there absolutely is a time and a place for it. To sum it up. Peter was wrong for not understanding the events that were about to unfold but he wasn’t really wrong otherwise and Jesus wasn’t all that hard on him for his actions (attempting to kill a Roman soldier).

Yep. Jesus’ New Covenant command…which the Apostle Paul later called the Law of Christ…was to give and to serve and to love other’s, just as He gave and served and loved us. Jesus wasn’t satisfied with being good for goodness’ sake, or good for His sake, He came to be good for our sake. And we’re not all that good.

It’s possible to be self-controlled, and judgmental. It’s possible to be personally careful, and uncaring. It’s possible to be blameless, and unsympathetic. It’s possible to be financially responsible, and selfish. It’s even possible to keep your hands clean, without offering anyone else a hand. Basically it’s possible to be good, without doing any good. It’s possible to be a good person, without doing good for another person.

Are we really a good person if we’re unwilling to do good for another person…? Does being good for goodness’ sake do any good…?

Jesus’ endgame wasn’t simply to keep the Law of God, His endgame was to demonstrate the love of God. And to demonstrate it in such a way that we would embrace that way of living, and that it would become our endgame as well.

To me that means that a person needs to believe in God and then try to live a life that reflects it. If you sincerely believe in God it would make sense to me that you would also strive to live a lifestyle which reflects it. We all fall short. So it’s about believing and making a real effort to try to live that lifestyle.

Most of the biblical parables are told in a way that require a common sense approach and easy to understand key points. It’s human nature to want to argue over the details. Believing and making an honest attempt to do what is taught is enough. IMO. It had to be because it wouldn’t be possible to write a book long enough to cover every conceivable possibility throughout thousands of years of human history.

Well said.

Jesus frequently railed against the Pharisees that were all about good works. Upholding the Sabbath above all else, giving money that they could easily afford ect. Those kind of works are not what God teaches and will not save you. You need to believe and then make a sincere effort to do what is taught. All of us will fall short and are saved not by displays of our goodness but by believing and making an honest effort to do what is taught. So that we’re saved by the grace of God. That’s my understanding.

Thank The Good Lord for Grace!!!

Paul stipulates Grace alone, "lest you not boast." If salvation is a gift, a gift is freely given. If a gift is conditional salvation is a trade, not an act of grace or a gift.

"I believe, help my unbelieve ."

Ah. A great quote (and summation for the right help to seek) for when the 'old Adam' and the 'new man' struggle arises within.

The quote from James is the one most often used. I notice that no one who uses that verse to discuss their personal holiness doesn’t do so because they can’t.

There really isn’t a conflict between the two. James is talking about justification before men rather than God. People mistakenly read that as justification before God and keep parroting bad theology.

EFW nailed down the traditional Christian view to which I hold.

Both can't be true. If salvation purely through grace is true, one's works are irrelevant.

You intentionally ignored the crystal clear point and the crystal clear distinction that IZH27 made above. Why is that…?

Ya can't bark to become a dog. Dogs bark because they ARE dogs.

You're clueless as usual.....

James 2:14–26 is sometimes taken out of context in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, but that is contrary to many other passages of Scripture. James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works.

Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many verses that say that true saving faith will result in a transformed life, that faith is demonstrated by the works we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith. Many profess to be Christians, but their lives and priorities indicate otherwise. Jesus put it this way: “By their fruits you will know them.

DBT, after your proclamation, these Christian guys have just schooled you - again - in a gentle and straightforward manner. Did you learn the lesson?

Most church’s gloss over the fact that the Bible is actually a library of the first recorded books… Written by different authors to different purposes, people and even timelines.

They don’t even tell you that humans are creatures off meaning with a set of stories of who you actually are, and some constructed persona that use you to negotiate between yourself and others…

If you understand that the Bible is a set of stories of people in different situations, some of which being normal human beings, some being extra good / extra bad…. Then you get the fact that you should search the stories to see what you should be telling yourself about who you are and how you should behave.

Many people will bark our rules - just like children do in pre-school… their aim is to feel better about their integration of the stories so their behavior is better than yours. This is NOT a person who wants better for you… so even though it may seem they are “godly” their purpose isn’t what the stories in the Bible tell you.


What the stories in the Bible tell you is that life is hard and sucks, and that you need to be responsible and act in a way that protects you, and those you have a relationship with and or social contract with (Do good works)…

The Spartans said - come back with your shield or on it…. But what most people don’t understand is that you had a helmet that protected you, as well as chest armor…. But your Shield protects you and the guys on each side of you… Lose it and you put all 3 of you to risk… and you aren’t doing your duty to the society if you lose your shield…

This is older than the Bible - but if you read the Bible you will find “put the body” (those acting in accordance with God) before your own protection and then you are living right in everything…

Good works are that, coupled with the fact that you have responsibility to take what you were given and support the body…. (Don’t leave your light under a bushel, aid your brother when he is need… )

the stories are to help you create a framework of what is good and bad and how to act…
Notice it isn’t a Disney story…. You need to be strong, but keep your sword sheathed for the most part..

Hope this helps.

A couple examples of taking the stories from the library and applying those to life…. (Use as intended)

Don’t spare the rod with Children.

Today it’s a known fact that if a child is “liked” by the time they are 4 years old (vs. rebellious & difficult), the will be much more successful in life than if they ran around hitting kids and being rebellious…because they are too aggressive and no one helped teach them to behave in such a way that other adults and children like them…. So socialize your kids !!


Love the mother and Father -

I can’t count how many people don’t bother to solve & own their [bleep]… so that they have a good relationship with their parents. Even my own son had some issues because of the family thing…. But after I fixed my own “[bleep]” … I took him through family events where he enjoyed himself, and all of a sudden his entire “shot at happiness” has changed. We are human and need real connections to understand who we are and where we come from… don’t raise your kids of lead your family in a way that makes room for your bonds like that and you live in a sort of Chaos… which weakens the family and the community….

Faith / confidence / resiliency -

Faith is sticking to your promises / social contracts/ and your word…. How many stories are there Lot, Abraham, …. Do what’s right stick to your purpose and things work out for the better - maybe not for you but for the family and for the community…
It make you less if you don’t stick to your word, as well as not helping others…
Frankly today Faith is confusing as hell to most people - they are focused on immediate gain - for me… screw that, the fabric of our reality should be than people keep their word and do the best they can to honor it…
There are a hell of a lot of military folks like this… not all of them but they are easier to spot there than most places.


I’m older now so I’m explaining these things to my son who has the same …. Church is just a bunch of BS ideology…. And frankly anyone can take a story and dumb it down to simple ideologies and use it for their own purpose.

The reality is responsibility to examine the “stories” society, friends, family, even the church tell you to see what’s right as a good man.
Then integrate those values into your good / bad framework and live right..

Anyone that tells you different is living by someone else’s ideology … which can be dangerous and stupid.. it’s all over the Internet for good ness sake, and pretty much irrefutable.. but there will always be someone to argue it.

Spots hooter,

Do you accept an ultimate authority?

I hope I havent indicated I am either holy or righteous. If so, I would hasten to assure and dissuaded you of that erroneous conclusion.

Resorting to ad homs, as usual.


The logic is not hard to grasp.

If it is ''by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God and not by works, so that no one can boast, works are not needed, all have fallen short but are saved through grace, not works.

Yet we have "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”

The former tells us that works have no bearing on justification or salvation by Grace that faith is sufficient, yet the latter states that a person is justified by works, not faith alone, which contradicts salvation through faith and grace alone.

It can be one or the other, but both can't be true.

If we have salvation though faith and grace alone, works doesn't come into it. Yet we are told it does.

Context is a poor excuse. Context does not transform what these verses are clearly stating into something opposite.

Then again, logic is not a strong point with religion and faith.

Faith and Grace come to many by different paths, depending on their understanding of God's word and what he wishes for us... He doesn't demand of us to be a certain way , which is why he gave us the ability to choose without His interference. But I believe He meant for us to understand there would be no eternal peace just as there would be no earthly peace without humility, empathy, and love for others.

As a Catholic our mass and much of our faith is Eucharistic based as this is where the most profound of Jesus' statements was put forth in the Last Supper. As he said "do this in memory of Me" he wasn't simply referring to the sharing of bread and wine but the larger meaning of the sharing of all of our goods in humility and love for others. To be like Him in all ways- humility, helpful, forgiving, loving, and to show and share our faith in God by our example as Jesus showed us. In our faith we earn the Grace , even though we are imperfect as God sees us, He understands our frailties and imperfections but sees if we are doing our best or are we "buying our way into heaven"- or worse, have completely forsaken His word and turned away from His path.

It really isn't all that complicated to realize that we all fail and are forgiven if we simply ask in a sincere manner befitting our humility. No one knows when our time will come except God so we should be prepared and in His Grace at all times and have Faith at all times .

I once read in a Christian circular which I won't identify at the moment that there is more belief within the Christian circles that there is no heaven and no hell- that we make or own heaven or hell right here on this world by our deeds, words, and actions. It seemed pretty cynical for a religious man to say such a thing at the time- especially given the Christian upbringing I had been given... but it is one of those conundrums you can't put away- like a song somebody sings that you can't stop hearing in your head all day long... if it is true or not true, living a life like Jesus will serve you well in either case...

And yet many boast of that. It’s often seen in the religious threads.

Yes, it is often seen in those threads by certain people who we all recognize. As though they are in a place to be able to shame those that they see not doing their "good works" as they see it. But all in vain in that only God can judge in the end and one who is truly humble and knows he is a sinner realizes he has no right to judge. Putting up bible verses over and over again doesn't change this fact.

A saying that came out of the Reformation in Germany is the best way that I’ve come to understand it. God doesn’t need our works. Our neighbor does.

From what I understand of the OT and NT, the law/Ten Commandments don’t make a man holy. They can’t because even in our best attempts to keep the law we sin.


The idea of works as a end to accomplish salvation or “keep” salvation is really laughable. It isn’t possible for us to keep the law at any point in our existence.

The works that James references aren’t related to keeping the law. He is referencing reliance on Christ’s death. That is the evidence of faith which is taught as being gifted to us.


When I was a kid into my early adult life I was taught the opposite of that. But God doesn’t need our works. Our neighbor does.

Well, you do indeed seem clueless and your irrational clinging to interpretations that do not withstand scrutiny are indicative of other issues.

Your comment that “Context is a poor excuse” is simply absurd.

See Psalm 91:4 for proof that God has wings like a chicken.

Understanding context crucial gaining the meaning of a verse…

Consider Jesus speaking in …Matthew 12:36….. “But I tell you that everyone will have to give an account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken”

What does this mean?

Do you take this… woodenly….for simply the words or do you search the context for meaning?

The ultimate authority is simply reality live against it and it will bite you in the ass HARD…

You can make up your own reality (Internet) or you can try to understand the fabric of reality and live well in it.

Some call that Meeting God… because there is a whole bunch of things we don’t know about in terms of the fabric of reality and how we act in it.

And in fact that’s what I’m suggesting, if the Bible is a library of methods to learn about living in the fabric of Reality in a way that will do all of us good…. Well then you would be a complete idiot for ignoring those… just like you would be an idiot for not learning how to drive on ice and then ending up in the ditch…

It comes down to responsibility to knowing what the hell you are doing in life…. Most of us what the short answer and are willing to swallow an ideology…. The problem with this is YOU ARE NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY….
This is why a crowd of people will do HORRIBLE things to a person…. It takes a single guy a while to get that F’d up in their mind and get responsibility and evil interwinded….

But with a group of idiots who aren’t responsible because they are hiding behind a ideology that “is responsible” (the crowd)…

There are very few real men out there who have figured it out - Thank God there are 5 times as man of them as there are the idiots that decided to act with Malice …. But we are breeding more cowards because we don’t teach responsibility..

So - ultimate authority = Responsibility

And we all have that responsibility to “get” there is a REAL fabric of reality where what you do has some effects on yourself, your family, and your community…

To rebuke truth of outcome (Karma, God, … ) would be to refute real outcomes of behavior…. Which if frankly beyond stupid if you are more than 12 years old.

Yep.

I look at it this way…


Everyone has a frame of reference or “sense of reality” and we can actually see things differently based on our experiences and how they changed us over time.

We also have “emotions” or “feelings” about what we are experiencing in life, or with what other people are saying…

IF one act’s with a concern for yourself, concern for the other person, and concern for the relationship between yourself….
WELL - then when they say something make you I don’t like X (makes you feel bad) - you SHOULD naturally say… hey this surely FELT this way to me and it seems way wrong, so before I go off half cocked…. Here is the context of why I saw it that way - Am I nuts (Do you see it that way or is this valid)….

This respects yourself, the other person and the relationship between you because you can “negotiate” your “frame” or sense of reality and Grow as people, in a good respectful relationship.


BUT - this is not generally how people react on the Internet…. They often insult, and criticize. - these are not respectfully motivated… they are power plays.. God help you if you act in Malice … They Other person picks up on your motivation more than what is said…

So - the nice part… we get to pick if we are all butt holes, or good Men..

This doesn’t mean you can’t be a monster of a guy, it means you walk in with your sword in it’s sheath… if someone refuses to respect you.. simply articulately state reality and walk away from the idiot…. Fixing someone else is Really hard, and fixing someone who doesn’t want to be fixed is darn near impossible…. Choose your time and friends wisely.

Spot

Hank Sr, "Got It", when he sang, Lord build me a cabin in the corner of Glory.

I'd put a please in there.

Regarding holiness whatever we are, we have not 'made it' ourselves.....

1 Peter 2:9, 10

'...But you are A CHOSEN PEOPLE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD’S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY...'

WHO was he speaking to/about???

1 Peter 1:1,2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

'...To those who reside as strangers, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: ...'

Unless I missed something along the way, the concept and techniques of logic were assembled by humans. A man made tool may not work for some who require mechanical means to understand or measure God and His meaning in Scripture.

SS,

Interesting viewpoint to be sure. Seems to me that I can partly agree with you that the Bible has purpose in it being “a library of methods to learn about living in the fabric of Reality in a way that will do all of us good…”

But I think there is more…..the Bible reveals the reality and nature of God and also reveals…. and illustrates …the reality of Jesus.


TF

One reason I don't respond much to the "Christian" threads anymore is the stumbling block, the refusal of the swine to accept the concept of faith. After all, we are talking about the Christian Faith, aren't we? Faith is trust, assurance, and confidence in God, the the substance or assurance of things we hope for, but have not yet received or seen. The doubters cannot and will not accept or acknowledge this concept, and discussions always come back to this fact. Since this simple concept is marginalized and trivialized, and ignored by the same group of swine that migrate to these topics like a moth to a flame, I really have nothing to discuss with them.

John 20:29
New International Version
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Bingo. Well said.

The swine know this and disingenuously use it in their efforts to marginalize Christ.

Why? It's about all they've got.

TF49,

If you have worked with people anytime you find out some can read and “get it”, others have to “see it done,” and others actually have to “DO IT”…

so we don’t all learn things the same way - so I am not surprised by anyone figuring things out a different way.

I simply offered something a bit more contemporary that is not rebuttable because may people are reacting off “badly used” religious ideology that didn’t want them to be better people, but wanted to control or self rationalize…

It’s a journey but we don’t treat it like one, we treat it like status…. The first recognizes you want people to be there best self… the later simply tries to climb whatever hierarchy you think is there…

There is a reason why the Bible says Love is the greatest thing… and this is why.

Well said. Problem is, I'm a sinner and fall short.

True living faith inspires us to do good to others. Those deeds are simply manifestation of true faith.

IMO, James 2 is just pointing that out. To claim faith, but still be unwilling to cheerfully do good for others is what "dead faith" is.

We ALL do. Hypocrisy is an innate human condition that shows from time to time no matter how hard we try to kill it off in our own lives. You may call me one if you like but that never negates your own.

Yup….ok….

TF

Where did you get the idea "no right to judge."?

An example - The “light and the way” ..

Think about living right in a world of risk, suffering, … you have to sacrifice doing the wrong things, and do the right things for growth, and happiness.

There are verses that say no one makes it to the father yet through me because I am the light and the way…


We are people of Meaning - what is your purpose = what is your meaning…

Responsibility is your meaning if you understand it…. Take responsibility to lift the heaviest burden you can, to limit suffering, eliminate malice, and do your best for yourself, your friends, and the relationship between the 2 of you…. Because our society is made up of people, and our relationships form the fabric of society and reality of what suffering is in the world…. So be responsible.

You can aim to be hedonistic and just do things for pleasure - is that the wisdom that builds a great family & country ?
Or you can take responsibility and ask your friends to do the same, not act with malice but share your feelings & your frame of reference (context) to help each other transform and become greater by simply respecting the relationships…
Teach your kids to not be hated (behave) so they can join in those types of relationships …

It’s weird people ideaologize Christ as being “love” and a “sacrifice” ….

What he was, was responsible in his role, and that is what we should be as well.
The world and life are hard enough alone no wonder people are nearly apocalyptic when people also fail to take on responsibility and become full of malice…

In the end don’t squander what you have, and try to be responsible….
“This is the way” was stolen by Disney for a movie…. It didn’t originate there.

Saying "techniques of logic were assembled by humans" is akin to saying "gravity was assembled by humans." Logic is universal, immaterial, immutable, timeless and other adjectives I can't think of at this time.

I appreciate your response, but do not agree with your view. Your example with "gravity" has to do with a force inherent in nature - the environment - in which we are born and live. In my belief, God created that force. It is universal and, to some extent, it is measurable. Having discovered it, humans have striven to understand and work with that force - but they cannot change it. It is beyond mankind's control.

Logic, on the other hand, normally is known and used as a somewhat scientific structure devised by humans to address matters and questions of correct reasoning. This is done through the use of certain principles. Humans set these principles and try to use them as criteria to establish validity of inference and demonstration in assessing rationality. Humans have devised differing forms/structures of logic according to needs. A logic system, in and of itself, is not universal and is controllable by humans.

Do you use a different definition of "logic"? If so, I would appreciate your providing the explanation of that logic.

The bible is a good example of "con" text. 200 versions of Christianity in the USA, and tens of thousands of versions throughout the world. God isn't perturbed to set the records straight - maybe he doesn't exist? Nah, that can't be it.

Apparently context can transform verse narrative from what it says into something you want it to say. That's convenience for you.

If the bible is the inspired word of God, as claimed, its clarity leaves a lot to be desired.

Pretty clear to me. You may want to do a bit of research and discover why Jesus spoke in parables.

Classic example of “sour grapes.” You don’t understand and seems you “can’t get”…..also, you don’t have ….so…. in your ignorance, you denigrate.

Meh….

Believers get confused, arguing amongst themselves over the meaning of this or that verse. In any case, what I quoted wasn't parable.

Sour grapes is evident in your response, not mine. I do nothing more than point to problems in theology. Peter and Paul disagreed and went their separate ways, and that is reflected in the quoted verses.

Has anyone else ever read a story where the perceptions of the narrator and/or main character are shown in the end to have been off, changing the entire meaning of the movie/book?

According to an orthodox view of Scripture it is made up of many pieces of literature written over thousands of years by many different authors who were inspire by the HS who knew they’d one day come together as a whole.

It makes perfect sense for those who only believe in that which is material to point out inconsistencies in this, but it is not outside the normal way we understand and interpret other writings.

I gave it earlier. You can believe and say whatever you want. It does not change the laws of logic anymore than disagreeing with hydrodynamics or any other law God created in the beginning. Laws of logic do not change from culture to culture or from generation to generation.

To sell something other than truth maybe?

I’m not sure where the “Holy” guys fits in - that is unless you are putting yourself above someone, or trying to put someone below yourself…

Our minister wisely said, we are no better, or no worse than anyone else.

OK - I am curious about those laws of logic created by God. Please post them. Thanks.

While you are getting ready to post God's laws of logic, you might care to read the following two somewhat scholarly articles on the general topic of God and Christian application of logic.

https://www.historicalbiblesociety.org › god-and-the-laws-of-logic

https://biblicalscienceinstitute.com › logic › the-biblical-basis-for-the-laws-of-logic

To your original post Sir. If you believe God created us. To know every hair on your head, to sew you together in the womb. You believe that Christ died on the cross and was risen and forgives us from our sins. Everything else really doesn't matter.

I don't have Everything figured out but I believe this.

I'm glad to hear that.
📖🙂👍

Back in my pro-staffing days, I received email from a young fan. He and his buddy were looking for inside tips on how to get into the big time of hunting. They wanted to start their own cable show. I tried to explain that I was just a poor schlep writer who just happened to be good at writing for the outdoors. However, this guy was convinced I was holding back on him. The emails got angrier and he finally sent me a scathing manifesto and buggered off. This kind of reminded me of that episode.

I've said this many times before: Christianity is a joke. No, I don't mean it that way. Being a Christian is something you either get or you don't. Repeating the joke doesn't usually make things better, nor does explaining it.

As the Newsboys say:

Shine
Make 'em wonder what you've got
Make 'em wish that they were not
On the outside lookin' bored
Shine
Let it shine before all men
Let 'em see good works and then
Let 'em glorify the Lord

Good works are a natural effect of being under the influence of the Holy Spirit. It's not something you can force. Oh sure, you can donate your money to charities and work in a soup kitchen, but that's not what good works are all about. Good works generally work more serendipitously.

So how do you get there? How do you open up your heart to God? Prayer. Pray for God to come into your life. It's just that simple.

Mom always wanted me to be a Methodist minister. Instead, I spent 40 years in IT. Most of it was spent dealing with end-users. Let me tell you that opening myself up to God's Will and just letting it fly did more to help folks than most ministers find in a lifetime at the pulpit. Now that it's over, I find that is the one part of my career I miss the most.

There is no brass ring in this gig. Remember that our Savior got nailed to a cross. If you ever think you deserve entrance into Heaven, you're missing the point. You can't collect the whole set and redeem it for valuable prizes.

Nope….. and you still don’t get it.

"I don't get it" because I see with clarity since I was never indoctrinated, and appreciate skepticism and critical thinking. Do you get that?

isn t there something in bible about laying down with another man you pillow biting fake Christian?

I appreciate you sharing your experience and I certainly don’t disagree. I’m just. It looking to go into a discussion of what good works are.

I started the thread to give an opportunity for the several who have brought up the “doing” of good works with the clear implication of “what we are to be about”. In my experience and based on observation the masses who claim faith in Christ end up espousing a faith that is anchored in a misrepresentation and misunderstanding what James is talking about. What I find is that the people who talk about “doing” are never willing or able to explain what they have done.

Based on what Jesus teaches in John 15 and what Paul teaches in Galatians those works that people claim that we are to “do” are not actually things that are done by us. They are done in spite of us.

If we examine the works that we view as ours it is likely that we need to repent of them because they are tainted by our sin and self interest.

I have high doubts that anyone will claim their righteous works and give us examples yet that view that nurtures that theology indicated that these same people will need to be able to stand in front of God and give an account of their works both good and bad. At the very least they might use this thread to practice up.

Righteous works do count. Righteous works don"t count.....

You may have missed it but I did try to answer the question you asked me a few pages back.

I might have opened my comment above with “I certainly am not holy.” Only God knows this more than I do; it’s why I need a savior! There are two important Biblical or theological terms that are true of the believer in Jesus Christ. “Justified” is what I am when I believe in Christ as Lord and savior, meaning my sin is separated from me; paid for. And it was very expensive for Christ paying off my and everyone else’s account. This does not MAKE me holy, but God now “SEES me as holy,” even though I still sin.

“Sanctification” is the process, post-justification, of becoming more Christ-like as a Holy Spirit-inhabited
Believer. But as long as I am in this body of flesh, I will never be completely sinless. And it’s true, that as a believer, one becomes very aware of every sin of commission. Very. But, we can rest in the completed act of Christ as efw said.

This is why Christ’s sacrifice, so beyond human experience, was crucial. Without it, and because of the Fall in Genesis ch 3, we would all be doomed to eternal destruction. Dying in our sins, we would be relegated to paying off our own sin debt forever. Unsuccessfully.

The old in-a-nutshell thing. And this nutshell above is a very small one. The apostle Paul fleshes this out in Romans.

What are you trying to count?

Here is what I get.

You may have missed a good opportunity - but missing indoctrination does not automatically indicate that a person sees clearly, appreciates skepticism and thinks critically. I know some unindoctrinated folks who can't or don't do the above.

Then again, I know some who were indoctrinated and who also see very clearly, appreciate skepticism and are excellent critical thinkers.

Experience says that indoctrination may not matter much, or at all. On the other hand, self-honesty can be a big asset.

MM……Nope….just the reverse…..you are spiritually blind. You see with your mind but not your heart.

And …. For DBT…… it seems to me that when you have exposed to having a biblical untenable view, you change subjects or just simply….hmm…. What is the term “conflate?”….. fail to see the whole and erroneously separate into disparate parts…whatever…..

Jesus knows your heart

He also knows about you buying demon alcohol for your friend

In this instance, contradictions. I know that some folks don't agree.

NEVER in this life will there be full agreement or absence of contradictions regarding God, His role and will. This is one of the reasons I am not much concerned about personal contradictions and do not devote a lot of time and effort to gathering data on them.

Some folks here have done well in explaining that salvation freely given by God is not dependent on any other factor. They also have explained the expectation for, and role of, good works toward others. The free gift is accompanied by an anticipated way of life. Some aspects of that life have to do with "works".

If you want to look the gift horse in the mouth, really LOOK, I believe that your perceived contradictions can be allayed.

Clearly and well said. I agree. Wholeheartedly.

This is a good thread.

The Western church so often confuses salvation and sanctification.

Results in a lot of bad theology.

Well, it seems that you don’t get it or perhaps you are deliberately choosing “not to understand.”


Doing right things…. Doing “good works” ….. being a “good guy who helps others” counts for zip when it comes to gaining salvation with God. What you think of yourself…. Good, bad, in between….does not matter when it comes to receiving God’s gift of salvation. Before receiving Christ, one is not part of the Body of Christ and as far as salvation is concerned, you have no spiritual relationship with God…… if one dies, he will be subject to judgment for his deeds and not allowed into heaven. This one’s …. Sin…. Is a barrier to having fellowship with God.


BUT….. after one receives the Spirit…. Becomes born again….. THEN…. Let me repeat….THEN…. Good works matter a great deal…..good works…. Especially good work performed at the direction of the Holy Spirit….are most pleasing to God and matter a great deal…..to Him. This born again person has had his sins forgiven and covered “by the blood” sacrifice provided by Jesus at the cross. God has “breathed life” to this one and the Spirit of God resides within him. He has been made a part of the Body of Christ.



When the Father looks upon this person, in effect, He sees him as a member of the Body…. The Father does not count sin against him as Jesus….the perfect sacrifice for sin…. Has paid the sin price…. Covered over the man’s sin by His blood.



NOTE…….Christians on earth are still living in a corrupt and sinful body and there is still a “sin battle” going on within. Read Romans 7 for more info……So, here you have a forgiven man…. Having the indwelling of the Spirit…. But still in a worldly body of flesh. Does this man sin? Yes….. when the Father looks at him, He sees the spiritual man “in Jesus” and this man is indeed holy and blameless in the Father’s eyes. Yes, when a Christian sins, there are indeed consequences for that sin….. (I know I have suffered various consequences for my sin, but can go to God for forgiveness and go on, looking forward to the day of my death and “release”)


NOTE….. when this born again man dies, he leaves the sinful body behind and receives a new “Christ like” body and joins Jesus in heaven.



So, DBT…….I suspect that this will seem like nonsense to you as you give no evidence of being born of God.

My advice and my prayer is that you turn to God ….. and in humility…. ask for enlightening. If you do, He will indeed answer. In fact, I would say that He is eager to not only hear from you, but eager to respond.

Most people will use skepticism and critical thinking for most parts of their daily lives, but not so with their religious beliefs. Those that do so honestly however typically become atheists - there's plenty to be found on various channels and forums.

People can be fooled, especially children where indoctrination works well, because they are told to believe without any real reason to believe, just believe. Threats of eternal damnation may help negate those wandering, inquisitive young minds.

That's part of the religious fantasy.

When I was younger and used to go out drinking, my "soul" used to end up just as shit-faced as me.

Religious people who have had a near death experience will see whatever god they happen to believe in - soul error or brain mis-function? If you do enough PCP and Ketamine you'll be able to see all sorts of gods, demons, angels and sometimes may even be a tactile experience if you're lucky.

You see with your eyes, think with your mind and pump blood with your heart, with the brain providing the driving centre for most of what happens in the body. Emotions are an electro-chemical action in the brain than can be further enhanced by the effect of the memories stored there - not a soul running the show.

If you happen to find a real soul shoot it so it can be displayed as evidence for us to examine.

Mauser - What is your soul ?

Can you articulately define what that is ?

"As for, and my house, we will serve the Lord'.

Why not?

Yes, I don't have one. Waiting for someone to demonstrate what a soul is and that they exist.

I know our Aussie friends do not believe and that is their choice....but my belief of the soul is....the part of a person that is not physical. It is the part of every human being that lasts eternally after the body experiences death. Genesis 35:18 describes the death of Rachel, Jacob’s wife, saying she named her son “as her soul was departing.” From this we know that the soul is different from the body and that it continues to live after physical death.

That's not evidence, that's just what somebody wrote.

Well said

Sorry, I forgot.... Atheist need evidence....and Christians and others do not.

So then Atheists don't accept the Big Bang?

There is plenty of evidence to support the Big Bang.

Curious.....name one...

I can't argue your statement that "most people will use skepticism and critical thinking for most parts of their daily lives" because I haven't seen any good scientific data on that point - either positive or negative. Based on long personal experience, I think your statement is way off the mark.

As for your claim that people do not engage skepticism and critical thinking with regard to their religious beliefs, I know your claim to be in error - and some content of the threads you latch onto here provide proof. I have not given time or effort to in-depth study of atheists and what got them to where they are - maybe I will look into that. But, I have known a bunch - some close professional acquaintances - and have been in deep discussions with quite a few. Frankly, many of them seem frustrated and trapped in some hopeless circular quest. YMMV.

You'll need to be prepared to educate yourself and there are plenty of resources out there to help you.

There will be the topic of observational evidence that includes the expansion of the universe, cosmic background radiation and nucleosynthesis.

Think of it this way - that the atheist is a skeptical "clean slate". Show me irrefutable proof that what you believe is true. If it's true it will be demonstrably so and true for all, otherwise it is a faith belief that you and others hold.

As usual I read this thread and my attitude could go 1 of 2 ways. I could get annoyed at the blatant stupidity, willful ignorance, obvious obfuscation and intentional misdirection by Curly and Mo from the AACC or I could try to ignore their hilarious attempts at self-adulation and instead focus on the worthy contributions of the many intelligent men here. I’m often struck by how well you guys are able to convey such a complicated and deep subject in very understandable language and you guys do so with patience and grace. I always takeaway more from these threads than I expect. 👍

Basic logic.

If we are told that something does not count, it cannot be logically said that it does count. It can be one or the other, but not both.

If we are told that works do not count (salvation is purely though grace), saying that 'works do count' (a person is justified by works and not by faith alone) the latter clearly contradicts the former: 'works do not count.'

One or the other may be true, but both cannot be true. That's how logic works.

No - that is not the work of an actual logic system. It may be how your logic works, and we easily can see why. You make stuff up ("what counts" for example) and pretend that your criterion is accepted by others here so that you can attempt to control the logic. But, your ploy will not work because those here discussing grace and works are well-versed, they are engaging honest discourse, and they see your little game. They have clearly and strongly discussed and explained the differences - but you insist on throwing apples and oranges into the same bag because your ploy depends on ignoring the actuality and running your little closed system. OK - it works for you, but it seems silly and not worth addressing any further.

This is true.

Grace is offered; it is not earned.

I understand. Logic is not your thing. It can't be helped. Enjoy your faith and may it bring you happiness.

LOL!

I think I've read that the human soul has been weighted.

You can be such a silly pretender - you know nothing about my logical work and capabilities. Thanks for the nice wish - I will accept it in good faith.

Still waiting for evidence for Big Bang that a Creationist could not use for creation.

No answer...thought so...

A movie was made about that but it's not true. It has been tested and proven incorrect.

If you do not know "what a soul is", how can you know that you do not have one?

Yeah but it's so far from the accounts in the bible that it would be heresy to try and claim it.

If noone can explain what a soul is how do they know that they have one?

Wow. I didn’t read this whole thing. Let’s just say it like this - I suck so bad that no matter what I do, it is not good enough. Ok? I CANNOT redeem myself. But if I believe in God, and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that is ENOUGH. And if I believe that, I will do good things.

That’s one of the few things that you’ve said that I can believe….congrats?

If you included a brain and common sense with all that you don’t possess you’d be even more correct. Carry on kiddo.

Some of the evidence for the "Big Bang:"

1. We observe that the universe is expanding. Running the movie backwards arrives at a "singularity," where space, time, and matter don't exist. This happened 13.8 billion years ago

2. As things expand, they get cooler. The universe did not get cool enough to let light exist until 380,000 years after the "Big Bang." As it expanded further, we can still see the "echo" of that event. We call it the cosmic background radiation. It exists everywhere within the universe and gets dimmer as time (and expansion) goes on.

3. However, we can never find out what CAUSED the Big Bang because the laws of physics were created in the Bang, and cannot be used to model it.

So...if you want to believe that some force called "God" created the Big Bang, science cannot prove you wrong and won't even try. But the belief that this happened only 6,000 years ago is simply not true, and is a myth like many of the other creation stories within Genesis.

I starred this thread to challenge the Works Faith guys to step up and regale is with the accounts of their heroic holy deeds. They haven’t because they can’t. Like all of us, regenerate or non- regenerate, they are sinners whether they are willing to be honest with that fact or not.

Our “good deed” in all likelihood will not be apparent to us. What we think of as good deeds need to be repented ot.

I don’t agree that what we think is good is actually evil, and needs to be repented of. What I know is that I suck, and I can’t save myself. Jesus did that for me. But because he did that, I want to be better than I am.

Your idea about an expanding universe is a Johnny come lately. Seventeen times the Bible tells us the universe is expanding.

God's Word teaches the earth started out cool. Evolutionists say it started out hot. God says it will end hot. Evolutionists say it will end cold.

Evolutionists constantly change their theories. God's Word doesn't. Evolutionary Ph.D scientists switch to creation every year. Can you name one Ph.D creationist who has become an Evolutionists?

As usual, you are totally wrong. A basketball ball player may make a basket during warmup, but if the time of play has not started, that basket does not count. If the clock has started and play has begun, he can the same or similar shot and the basket counts.

Simple….. but you fail to grasp works done for one’s own glory before salvation and one’s work in league with God after salvation.

Surely you can see that…..

But…. Also as per usual, you cannot admit your error for admit your erroneous interpretations.

Meh…. sos

Certainly. But the fact remains that as regenerate men we remain sinners. We are not free of the fallen nature. I can’t remember the exact text but recall the scripture where the repentant asked when did we do this? Jesus answered “when you did this to the least”.

A lot of people parrot the idea that we are to “be doing good deeds”. I don’t disagree with this. However, the food that we do is given to us as the fruit of the spirit rather than the things what we “actively set out to do”.

I can’t get away from the scripture in John 15 and Galatians. I can’t cause fruit to bear on myself if I am a branch on the vine which is Christ. Any good that comes from me is not of me. That’s the idea behind why I need to repent of what I think is good. What I think is good probably isn’t because it’s likely from me rather than from the Spirit.

I’m a sinner.

Well, ok…. You’re a sinner….. but, lest you think you are special, I am too.

We are all worm dirt in the end. I know many like to feel they are God's special creature, but we are upright walking animals that have an inflated opinion of ourselves.

You live, you die, period.

Seems to me that you have bought into a satanic lie and cannot see that you have been fooled, you are also “indoctrinated.”

Well, someday, you will see the light….. I hope it’s not simply because you “feel the heat.”

Not on tha innanet, tho.

Ya just come back as another loser suck puppet.

And also the abundance of helium in the universe is evidence that supports the big bang theory as those conditions required within the first few minutes after the big bang to produce it.

You made the negative proclamation, but you do not answer the logical question. Why not?

I feel that there must be many who can explain what their soul is, but they may not be inclined to attempt that with an insensitive naysayer. If they do not claim that you have no soul, they owe you nothing in the way of rationale or proof. They may already have experienced that there is little or no good to be gained by sincerely sharing with people who are simply seeking to make a negative argument.

I can understand that, if a person claims to be atheist, they may have little or no sense of soul or any felt need for a soul. You proclaim that you do not have one. How do you know that? Just send in the proof for your position.

Refer IndyCA35’s excellent response above.

I tried to lead you to self-research but you seem to be quick to give up and put your head in the sand.

Not at all. The gods, devils and hellfire exist in your mind, not mine.

Given that the soul is meant to be such a profound part of who I am, I have not experienced anything that can't be explained by natural processes (bio-chemical, psychology etc). There is no extra supernatural component to explain why/how I act and many contradictory accounts that preclude the existence of a separate soul. Refer examples of getting drunk, brain injured people, people with dementia etc. At least in my experience absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

You guys with souls must be special, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. What does your soul do when you sleep?

You are the proof

I do believe that the day will come when all of us will stand before God and give an account of our works, good or bad. For those who also believe this, do you wanna trust in your own good works…despite your sins…to earn your way into God’s good graces, and salvation…?

Or do you wanna stand before God and give an account of your own works, good or bad, with your sins covered by the Blood of the Atonement because you accepted God’s grace…?

And, for those in the first category above, do you feel that trusting in your own good works…despite your sin…to earn your salvation diminishes, in any way, the work that Jesus did for you on the cross…?

Yea!!

The question is for those who have drank the kool aid of Wesleyan Christian perfectionism or pietism. They quote James and hold those verses high as though they are a banner of victory! To them I say, “Proclaim your good works and holiness! Show us that which causes you to rise above those others”!

….yet they are silent. Quiet. Yet they “have so So much to share”.

I’ve heard that most of My life. Yet, Paul says that there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ,

If there is no condemnation there is no guilt. If there is no guilt how can there be judgement?

agreed...........

John 3:18 ...he that believes in HIM is not judged, he who does not believe has been judged already..........

I gave a jake, I'd inspire ya ta another black cock meltdown.

More fun ta do the slow bleed, where actual 'fire members post pictures a your wife, til ya can't stand it anymore.

Pm Happy Camper.
Lol

I wanted your opinion of the Big Bang (BB), I was not saying you are wrong, just wanted your perspective of Big Bang...since you refuse to give me your opinion, here is mine....I am sure this will bore many, but my years of research for the BB is as follows and this is my belief.....one professor gave me an A and the other gave me a C...he was an atheist.

Technically, the Big Bang does not describe how the universe ‘began to exist’. The Big Bang describes how a singularity (a speck of infinite heat and density) rapidly expanded and produced everything in the universe. So actually, you have no explanation for how the universe began (or why for that matter). Where did the singularity come from? What caused it?

I used to believe that science cannot, by definition, explain the origin of the universe....I kinda still do, but you'll in the see last paragraph.

Science relies on the laws of physics, chemistry and other natural laws in order to operate. But these laws were only created after the universe began to exist.

Newton came along, when everyone believed that God or gods did everything, and discovered the laws of physics, which then did everything. Thinkers then had two choices - either the laws of physics did everything, and there was no need for God or gods to do anything, or God worked through the laws of physics to make everything happen.

The curious thing was that the Newton's people worldview, was entirely dependent upon the universe being infinite in size and time, infinitely old and large. Thus, the laws of physics had always been here, along with the universe itself and everything in it - energy, matter, stars, galaxies, everything had always been there. And thus no need for any deity to have started the whole thing off, no need for a Genesis point, for a creator, since it was not a creation. Creations are created at a moment in time and space, but the laws of physics did all the creating that was needed. This didn’t get rid of God, but it seemed to get rid of the need for God as an explanation.


Now stick with me......

Then something terrible happened to the infinitely large, infinitely old universe - Big Bang. Suddenly, the universe had a starting point, a Genesis moment.......It’s important to understand what the Big Bang says - according to hot BB cosmology as predicted by the General Theory (ignoring quantum mechanical problems for the moment) and overwhelmingly and convincingly confirmed by all observations so far, the Big Bang produced space and time. There was no empty universe waiting for something to happen inside of it. The empty universe came into being, vanishingly small for a vanishingly small amount of time, and then almost instantly becoming a cosmos-sized cosmos, expanding from the size of a proton to a quarter billion light years across in a trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second.

And with this universe arrive not just space and time, but the laws of physics - gravity, the strong, weak and electromagnetic forces. And energy. And matter. They all arrived. They didn’t pre-exist the universe, they didn’t pre-exist the Big Bang. Everything came into existence, apparently from nothing. Really nothing.

Now. If one bases the non-existence of God on a Newtonian worldview, dependent on an infinite universe in time and space, and one learns that the universe is not infinite, that the laws of physics have not always been there, then suddenly we can have a conversation about God.

Worth noting that the science community rejected the idea of Big Bang, of the universe having a starting point, because it sounded too much like religion. Fred Hoyle: “The passionate frenzy with which the Big Bang cosmology is clutched to the corporate scientific bosom evidently arises from a deep-rooted attachment to the first page of Genesis, religious fundamentalism at its strongest.” William Bonner “The underlying motive is, of course, to bring in God as creator. It seems like the opportunity Christian theology has been waiting for ever since science began to depose religion from the minds of rational men in the 17th Century.”

And then George Smoot, after winning the Nobel Prize for discovering evidence in the Cosmic Background Explorer (COBE) satellite, that firmly established BB as the way the universe began, said this: “We have observed the oldest and largest structures ever seen in the early universe. These were the primordial seeds of modern-day structures such as galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and so on. If you’re religious, it’s like seeing the face of God.”

So scientists largely considered BB as evidence for the existence of God, until BB was shown to be true. Then many of them decided that it wasn’t evidence, after all. That’s not science. That’s just personal bias. And that’s kind of the way we work. There is evidence, but not proof, and we can and do decide whether or not to accept it based upon what we believe to be true.

Tagged

You realise that all you do is critisize the response without addressing the particular issues, either that or ad hominen attacks. You can do better.

You have a communication issue. You never asked for my opinion, you asked for evidence of the big bang. I provided some info for you to research (there's plenty of info available) but you rejected it and went straight to head in sand.

Just because we don't know what happened at the instant of the big bang, or prior, it gives no validity to creation by galaxy farting pixies or whatever else you choose to nominate.

Ha ha. Yes, he's the one closest to God here.

There sure are a lotta people nowadays who see things that way. Maybe more than at any other time in our lives.

There has certainly been a significant increase in those who choose to be religiously unaffiliated in any way whatsoever.

Iron bender said a while back, "dead is dead." He is correct, that's what makes the Resurrection so great.

Not at all correct on your part - read again, and again. You act like the evidence king and made a declarative post about your soul. I simply asked for your evidence/proof. You flunked - posted none. What normal person would not comment on such behavior? No answer = no hall pass for you !

I do not have a communication issue, but you absolutely do...You originally said there is plenty of evidence of the big bang....I said name one....you said go look it up...I already knew the theory about big bang but just wanted your opinion....so I got my old old papers out and replied to you... and now you say you say George Smoot is full of shiet.....you do realize he won the Nobel Prize for discovering evidence in the Cosmic Background Explorer (COBE) satellite, that firmly established BB as the way the universe began.

Raspy, based on his behavior here, you are on target with mauserand9mm - he must have issues. But, maybe not so much "communication" - maybe more like faking or hypocrisy. He talks so big about valuing and needing "evidence" for his logic, but when another poster asks him to provide evidence regarding one of his questionable claims, he seems unwilling or unable to do so. What does such behavior symbolize?

God created the Heavens, and the earth.

How He did it, is not that important.

I agree. And I think Apostle Peter would agree too. His trust and faith and hope wasn’t anchored to the Genesis account of a literal 6 day creation, nor was it anchored to theology or any book. He clearly and unequivocally said that his trust and faith and hope were anchored to an event…an event that he and many others saw with their own eyes…the resurrection of Jesus.

Very strong points from both you guys. If we can step aside from the normal human quest to satisfy our curiosities and somehow reinforce our relevance by "knowing" how and why events transpired, we sometimes learn more than we can by digging and testing.

For me, these discussion sometimes reinforce that view - so much energy and thought given into the "how and why", the picky details and the arguing about evidence and proofs - seems to draw folks away from the glorious fundamentals.

I love and enjoy scientific study and exploration, but such a quest cannot rule my existence - so much of the negative stuff encountered by humans comes from self-serving efforts to grasp things simply unavailable to us.

I've read, The way to God, Dwight Moody.

Interesting, Moody was at the Battle of Shilo, things do not change at all.

Raspy,

How 'bout dueling essays?




ESSAY ON WORLD VIEW
Rich Coyle (541) 450-4170
[email protected]
December 6, 1992

The objective of this work is to reduce some thoughts to questions: Then by a progression of thoughts, have the reader come to some reasonable conclusion despite, or as a result of, their dogmas, biases, or generally preconceived notions.
We need to start by informing the reader that he or she is opinionated. If we say, "I am not!" this is our opinion, and we hold to it dearly, thus proving we are. It should be added at this time that there are some people (let's hope their numbers are small) who are as one writer put it, “Tossed here and there by every wind of doctrine." Perhaps, though, even these poor folks are opinionated. There is a man, we’ll call him Rick, who used to say after almost every paragraph, "...but I could be wrong." Is this then his opinionated opinion? No, because when he was pressed about something, he would say, "O yea, I guess I was right." His opinion could be changed by anyone he respected. There are also some who are so confident in the views they hold, almost nothing can overcome their biases. If these views cannot be supported by facts, it is irrelevant. Who needs facts when you have a good prejudice? Maybe these individuals are the most fortunate. They are convinced, not because of or despite a lack of any evidence but, by their prejudices.
If we decide that someone's positions are bad, what criteria do we utilize, our own prejudice? This brings us to ask about the idea of good and bad; which leads one to include right and wrong. We may consider some of our views to be good or right; and at other times we hold these same positions to be wrong or bad.
From where does the concept of good and bad or right and wrong come? What leads us along this path? There are some things that certain people think the absence of is bad; while others consider their presence to be bad. Some would say that these bad things will lead to other bad things which are perhaps even worse. Again the question arises: What is good or bad? Who determines what is good or bad, right or wrong? This results in bigotry. Who's to say bigotry is good or bad, though? If the person who became a bigot was aborted before being born, some would be delighted. Some believe the absence of abortions is wrong. Others might conclude aborting unborn humans is murder. Most everyone agrees that murder is bad, don’t we? We just don't agree when murder is or is not. Euthanasia is against the law. It must be wrong! But then, abortion used to be against the law didn’t it? Some are dead set against euthanasia for any reason. Others feel it is wrong not to practice it in some instances.
When I was young, the media told us that homosexuality was "just a disease". We were told that we should feel sorry for homosexuals. Now, aren’t we considered "sick" if we don't indorse the “gay” lifestyle?
In the past the idea of an unmarried couple living together was strongly condemned by society. Even the term to describe it is repugnant: Shacking up.
Hedonism has replaced thoughtfulness of others. Why? Why are things going this way? Why is there such a thing as "politically correct" in a day of tolerance? Why is it that one can say, "Wrong is not wrong, it is a matter of perspective."? The answer is obvious when one looks at the difference in "Why are there birds and bees?" as being taught now compared to a century ago. Everything was a result of a Creator God. Now we are taught by enlightened thinkers that we are the result of a mindless undirected struggle orchestrated by unguided natural laws. Modern science knows we are a result of a fortuitous arrangement of inorganic matter. There is no creator: We created ourselves. We are at the top of the evolutionary heap.
Since there is no Creator God, evolution will eventually do its thing. Man will, by chance, destroy himself and then bacteria will rule. That is...if there is no Creator God.

There is the concept that only the lost will be judged for their sin..... at the Great White Throne judgment. Members of the Body of Christ... if they are even in attendance, will only be observers.

Believers will appear at the Bema Seat judgment. There are those who hold that the believers will only be judged for the "quality" of their works.

See 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

Paul also said that we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and that each one of us will give an account of our works (good or bad) and receive what is due to us for the things that we’ve done, whether good or bad.

The “NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ”, to me, is conclusive that while believers will also be judged after death, they will not be condemned and consigned to eternity apart from God because their sins are covered by the Blood of the Atonement because they’ve accepted God’s grace.

You should have then asked for my opinion. Like I said communication issue.

Absence of evidence / evidence of absence is absolutely correct in this case. Have a think about it - put your heart and soul into it

Listening to Les Feldick, Les just said, When God looks at us, He see's something beautiful. Not our sin, but His image.

Interesting....last sentence, that is a BIG if....

It may be just me, but It all rings so true.

As Kipling says....Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind.

Time for, This, again.

Beautiful...

I give...I am asking your opine of the Big Bang Theory.

The millions praying for Trumps victory, didn't seem to work?

In my opinion the Big Bang Theory is, rad, awesome and brilliant. It makes me happy and grateful that there great minds out there who are working towards understanding things and so that we learn and can work to make life better for us all. Generally humble people who don't rely on donations for faith healing to fund their works.

I read a while back, Prayers are always answered, many times the answerer is not no, but not yet.

Do you believe that?

Yes.

Thanks CCCC....he'll come around....I like Aussies, they helped us a lot in the past big wars. I think that deep down, he is someone I would trust in a foxhole...

The issue is faith. That faith is a poor means of sorting fact from fiction. An absence of evidence does not support a justified conviction, nor does redefining evidence to suit one's needs alter the terms of justification.

It would be hard to be judged for much if your sins are forgiven I figure. When you ask forgiveness and HE forgives you, doesnt HE say they are forgotten?

mauserand9mm........In my opinion the Big Bang Theory is, rad, awesome and brilliant. It makes me happy and grateful that there great minds out there who are working towards understanding things and so that we learn and can work to make life better for us all. Generally humble people who don't rely on donations for faith healing to fund their works.

I like it....thanks

Kinda agree.....but you can’t see wind – but it exists – because of the evidence....

Wind is detectable. Air is detectable.

And God is most certainly detectable….. but one has to seek and search….

Seek and find…… Don’t seek….don’t find.

Faith is for me detectable....I can certainly feel it.

Seems that way to me… the Bema Seat is perhaps like a review of “what you did with the gifts and assignments that I gave to you.” That is…. The good works you did at my behest and in my behalf….. not a “sin” judging,

So…..This seems not to be any judgment of sin…. But… I am still studying on this subject and some may hold to different views….ok.

There is some logic when a believer says “I am holy.” Study of 2 Corinthians 5:21 is interesting…. Christ’ death on the cross substituted our sin for His righteousness. God looks at us….. so to speak…. And sees us as holy and without sin while we yet walk on this earth and sin in our flesh….. seems we sin in our flesh but are righteous in Spirit. (I’m still working on my understanding of this.)

I need read less here, and read my Bible more.

God is not detectable in the same way as air or other physical phenomena, objective, testable, falsifiable. Those who believe assume a creator because the world is complex and it is assumed that this couldn't have came about without a creator. Faith, not science or philosophy.

The existence of faith is not being questioned. Belief can be expressed, heard or read and examined whenever someone shares their convictions. People have faith, no doubt.

And not to forget to mention that many people find god, but it's not always the same god. Must be more than one.

Everyone has a god, it may or may not be God.

Of course God it detectable in the “same way.” God is spirit….

Nothing have said is anything but whining that God does not reveal Himself in a manner that you demand.

Here is truth for you….. God is real…. There is ample evidence for the existence of God that you reject BECAUSE you don’t DESiRE God…..

the soul is real, just close your eyes for a moment and reflect…..Think about yourself, your personality, your desires, your characteristics…think about what makes you unique and different from everybody else…..might that be “you”… your soul..not just “brain function?

More truth….. you are a created being…. God created and breathed life into you…. He loves His creation and He loves you!

More truth… men make choices about God….. they choose “God” or “Reject God.”

More truth…. You have no idea about “faith.” You don’t grasp the concept and always revert back to your own limited definition of faith.

“Faith is the substance….substance… of things hoped for…..”

You can a lot of faith…. A little faith or no faith….. my faith is as real as sunshine.

You may want to step back and reconsider….. perhaps most if not all of what you believe may be false.

Nope…wrong thinking…..some people find “no God” …. Some people find the true God in “Jesus” and some people find some sort of satanic counterfeit and end up believing a lie.

The above position may very well be useful for the person who has no knowledge or direct experience with the dynamics of faith.

Everybody says that their god is the real god, oddly it's normally the one that they've been led to believe in, and there's geographic correlation with the particular god believed in. Must be more than one.

What you detect is your own perception and idea of God. An experienced that's shaped by what you have have grown up with, heard and read about God. Those that are born and raised in other cultures have different experiences.

If God was objectively detectable, like the things of the material world, there would be no debate, everybody would believe.

Do tell. Look around and see what people are placing their faith in, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, politics, various ideologies.....

If nothing else, you seem consistent - you again missed the point entirely. Sorry - the universe does not revolve around the navel of your perceptions.

Well, this thread is running out of steam, but I will make one last comment.

Note what is said in John14:16-17...... Jesus speaking to the disciples.....right before the cross and his victory....


" And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever...the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

So, here in a nutshell is an explanation.....There are posters on this thread that deny the reality of Jesus and discount the testimony of believers by asking "where's the proof." OK... Jesus is telling us that there are those people "in the world" that cannot accept God ... because they neither see him no know him.

Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian.

Simple.... Seek God, Find God.... Know God.

Or..... Don't seek God, Don't find God and Don't Know God.

The choice is indeed yours.


oh... and no hiding behind that lame simplistic "predestination" stuff..... The Bible is replete with examples of God asking people to choose.


Accept or reject....Choose wisely.....

All other religions claim the same “proof” – you sure you haven’t been fooled by Satan? It sounds like the sort thing that he would convince you of.



False dichotomy right there – not accepting is not the same as rejecting. Serious consideration would require evidence. Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence and sounds more like a gambling issue.

Remember the Cross, good men.

Oh?, but faith is made of demonstrable evidence as in textual studies, to show that we have trustworthy versions of the original biblical documents....historical studies, to show that there is considerable demonstrable truth in the Gospels.....biblical studies, to demonstrate the remarkable consistency the Bible demonstrates from beginning to end.... the use of philosophical arguments to show that there is a reasonably high probability that God exists.....then there is the non-eternality of the physical universe....the unique nature of humans, including rationality, consciousness, moral responsibility.... fine-tuning of the universe to permit chemical complexity, and thereby life itself....the existential conflict of humans: our awareness of falling short of something better....

so yes, I consider the above as EVIDENCE.....but, and this is a big but, there is no actual PROOF....that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF....gambling issue (Pasqual's Wager), yes, that is what started me off in believing (decades ago) as the stakes were just too high for me not to believe... like I said before, I am choosing to believe because the fifty-fifty odds are just too great for me to wager...so I will continue to pray, ask for forgiveness, and always do the right thing.... But I don't believe that it can stop there. I must become mature in my faith and have definitive reasons for it that are based on the truth and not just pragmatism, because as stated before, God can see what is truly in the heart.

The bible is factually and historically wrong, written over centuries past the alledged events and by some unknown authors. And there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. Don't even start to talk about the inconsistencies and contradictions, and lack of clarity. What is it, 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book?

The bible is evidence than many people wrote a book. Harry Potter has at least a known author.

You still cling to the totally flawed Pascal's Wager - it could be argued to show that the atheist is going to be better off, but gambling taken seriously is prety stupid anyway.

Well, my friend, I wrote of evidence and not of proof...that is my story...you may choose as you believe..i like the biblical evidence....the Wager is not flawed from my perspective...either there is or either there is not an afterlife.

Fair enough, but some people prefer demonstrated truth over what they would like to be true.


You only factor in one god except there are thousands of gods to choose from - not good odds from the get go. Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god.

Wrong, re-read way above....I said "that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF..."

Like I said, there are thousands of gods, and not all will condemn you to hellfire. Even Jesus didn't preach of a hell.

There’s tremendous evidence that a tiny first century sect born in the armpit of the Roman Empire…and Judea was certainly that…whose leader was rejected by His own people and then crucified, survived and thrived in the face of violent and organized state sponsored resistance.

The fact that a Nazarene cult would eventually be embraced by the very Empire that for 300 years sought to exterminate it carries some heavy weight.

Those who have visited Rome can see that there’s a cross commemorating the crucifixion of Jesus mounted over the Emperor’s entrance at the Roman Colosseum.

Historians to this day ponder these facts and wonder how they came about…?

“Against all odds, by the third century, Christianity had become a force to be reckoned with. We still do not really understand how this came about.” - Karen Armstrong • Fields of Blood.

Nobody can deny that it happened. We don’t know how it happened…‘unless’ we take seriously and pay attention to the eyewitness accounts of the people who were there for these events and eventually documented them for the entire world. They actually saw them and they documented them. It’s amazing that it all happened.

Sandwiched between Empire and Temple…this tiny movement that began in Galilee…with a day laborer (Jesus of Nazareth), it’s amazing that we’ve even heard His name; and it’s amazing that anything about Him survived.

But it’s undeniable that it did.

That's not an argument. It's angst. Sour Grapes. The point is that faith is a poor means of determining truth. In fact, because you begin with a conclusion of truth, it is not the way to sort fact from fiction.

For that you need an open mind, to be willing to consider other possibilities, however unpalatable these possibilities may be.

To me there is only one God(of the Bible) and that is my belief...if I am wrong then I am fu*ked.....atheist believe in no God and if you are wrong then you are fu*ked...if we are both wrong, then I guess we are both un-fu*ked.....who knows what hell is actually like....some people believe it is hellfire, some believe it is a perpetual sadness, a loneliness...like I said I am hanging on to what I believe...

The 27 different books of the New Testament were written between 50 and 100 AD. That’s only 17 to 67 years after Jesus’ death and resurrection.

Our best surviving biography of Alexander the Great comes from nearly five hundred years after his death...! Nobody discredits it.

Author’s to this day are still writing non-fictional historical narratives of people who lived thousands of years ago, even before Jesus was born (Julius Caesar for example). Nobody discredits them.

Some selectively choose to hold the books of the Bible to clearly different standards than they do all of the other non-fiction historical narratives that are written.

To me there is only one God(of the Bible) and that is my belief...if I am wrong then I am fu*ked.....atheist believe in no God and if you are wrong then you are fu*ked...if we are both wrong, then I guess we are both un-fu*ked.....who knows what hell is actually like....some people believe it is hellfire, some believe it is a perpetual sadness, a loneliness...like I said I am hanging on to what I believe...[/quote]

Superstitious people go for the stick and carrot. I don't worry about it, I have no reason to worry about it.

It might have been helpful - and more intellectually honest - for you have begun that declaration with something like "the concept of faith as I know and understand it - - - ".

Most likely, no one here is going to argue that opinion as you expressed it - it is very closed mind oriented and in it you reveal your limited understanding of the concept of faith.

Of course you are welcome to your view and the expression of it, but when engaging the deep and wide matters of involved with such faith, your view comes across and simplistic and childish - and not useful for discussion or growth.

mauserand9mm, it seems normal here for you to make huge and sweeping claims about "fact", which immediately make your claims suspect. Yet, you claim such heavy dependence on evidence and proof, and pretend that all others should do that as you do.

This is your big opportunity to be convincing. So, please provide the hard evidence and proof that caused you to believe the truth of these, your utterances, as selected from your posts and noted below Hard evidence and proof now – not observations or opinions. You said this stuff – underlines to provide focus for hard facts.








Waiting here - just pop out those facts and proofs and all will be well.

Sure.

I don’t have a compendium of dismissing the religious bullshit but I’ll try and point you to some good sources of information.


Huh? Why would you have issue with this? Don’t you think people who believe in a god believe that their god is the real god? You must be on crack.


That onus is on your guys. Proof would be demonstrable and attributable to it’s proven source (eg god provided you with a soul and you need to feel him in your heart yada yada yada). Still waiting for the evidence.


Looks like I may have got this wrong – there are 200 Christian denominations in the US, and about 45,000 globally:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

https://www.livescience.com/christianity-denominations.html


There’s a fuck-ton of useful information here for starters:

https://ehrmanblog.org/tag/biblical-discrepancies/

Bart used to be one of you guys before he saw the light, but that's only because he put in the hard yards and did proper research. There are many others who have also done so.

The fantastic events still go unsupported and unsubstantiated - you got any proof that you are withholding from us?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity

https://ideas.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Gods

http://lowchensaustralia.com/names/gods.htm

Maybe only your god is the jealous one.

The definition of faith I refer to is in the dictionary, as defined in the dictionary in relation to religion.

It is not my definition. Nor is it 'how I understand faith,' but how it is in fact defined.

Your rationale is disingenuous.

I guess it's natural for some disagreements, Saint Nicklos punched out a fellow priest.

Catholics and Protestants take it a step further, and they're almost on the same side.

Renowned New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman clearly and unequivocally says that the very reason that he lost his faith and embraced agnosticism and atheism was because of pain and suffering in the world. Period.

But Christianity has never taught of an earthy world without pain and suffering. Pain and suffering don’t disprove the existence of God. It only disproves the existence of a god who doesn’t allow pain and suffering.

And that’s not the god of Christianity. Christianity’s God promised that there would be pain and suffering in this world. The very movement of Christianity itself in fact involves the pain and suffering of the most innocent man who had ever lived.

I’ve avoided this thread but just looked at the last page and saw this.

Hard to disagree.

Antlers,

Often I hear or read about "the God of love". That is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible is Infinite! Not Infinite from neutral to nice. No! The God of the Bible instituted pain and suffering and death as a result of Adam's sin. Remember He told Eve, "I will greatly increase your pain..."

People can and do reject God for all kinds of reasons. Most are illogical. Some are just too vain to accept A Superior Being.

At the resurrection God will give more reason to love Him or give more reason to not love Him. So simple.

Folks read the bible really weird.

Pro tip- when you read "God said" it usually means "hey we think God says this".

Then Jesus comes along and clarifies things when he says "if you've seen me you've seen the Father"

Basically Jesus is saying everyone else's statements regarding who/what God is are royally fuqqed up . . .

That's why the religious leaders weren't a fan.

But the whole modern Christian thing worships the Bible, not Jesus. .

To me there is only one God(of the Bible) and that is my belief...if I am wrong then I am fu*ked.....atheist believe in no God and if you are wrong then you are fu*ked...if we are both wrong, then I guess we are both un-fu*ked.....who knows what hell is actually like....some people believe it is hellfire, some believe it is a perpetual sadness, a loneliness...like I said I am hanging on to what I believe...[/quote]

Superstitious people go for the stick and carrot. I don't worry about it, I have no reason to worry about it.[/quote]

I am not superstitious.....just a believer and have no reason to worry either...I'm making my choice, and you are making your choice.

"
No - not disingenuous at all - straightforward. The definition you put in force here is "your" definition. If your secretly hold to a definition but actually pose one that is different, that indeed is disingenuous behavior. Still not useful. either way.

You fail mauserand9mm - posted a bunch of someone else's claims and specious data, and proved nothing. Come up with your proofs, please.

Hey, I don't know it all. There are experts in their fields, under peer review, and researchers also subject to skeptic review. That's why I direct you to the their work.

So does that mean you know it all on your side of the arguement, or is that just what you believe?

What a load of Crock. I don't write the definitions given in dictionaries.

As it happens, there is a condition where people hold convictions without the support of evidence....which is why we say they have faith that their conviction is true.



Now, as we are talking about religion, which is a belief in any of a number of versions of God or gods, without the support of evidence, what do our dictionaries tell us?

faith
2: belief that is not based on proof: (He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.)
3: belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion.

Definition of faith
b- 1: firm belief in something for which there is no proof.


As anyone can see, these are not my definitions. It is not something I insist on, or how I ''understand it.''

This is just the definition of faith in relation to any belief that is held without the support of evidence.

As we have no evidence for the existence of any of the many versions of God or gods, to believe in these things is a matter of faith: as defined above.

You don't have a leg to stand on.

My position is the skeptical clean slate. I'm not chosing to not believe, i simply have no reason to believe. If something were demonstrably true, I would have no reason not to believe.

Why choose to beleve something that you don't know to be true?

And that expains the flustercluck of denominations from the one "source of truth".

MM,

It is not my experience that other religions claim the same thing. I have been around plenty of Moslems and a few Hindus in my travels and had a number of”religious” conversations with more than just a few of them….. not once has a Muslim or Hindu said anything….not one word about the indwelling of the Almighty in them.

Unless you can justify your statement, your statement that “all religions claim the same proof” is false.

Just more cliches from you…..

Well, yes….God is Spirit and yes, you do not detect Him.

But, “detectable” He is…..whether you think so or not.

See,s to me that you just keep on talking to yourself…. Are you just “whistling in a graveyard?”

Nope…. Only One God ….. but many counterfeits.

And that expains the flustercluck of denominations from the one "source of truth".[/quote


No it doesn’t….and CA is just spouting off….. filled,with angst perhaps?

Sadly, you are wrong, you are indeed choosing and you are choosing “Not God.”

The is The Holy Trinitey, God in three Persons, as Les Feldick points out, Jesus could not have raised himself from the dead.

DBT posted.....


"What a load of Crock. I don't write the definitions given in dictionaries.

As it happens, there is a condition where people hold convictions without the support of evidence....which is why we say they have faith that their conviction is true.



Now, as we are talking about religion, which is a belief in any of a number of versions of God or gods, without the support of evidence, what do our dictionaries tell us?

faith
2: belief that is not based on proof: (He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.)
3: belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion.

Definition of faith
b- 1: firm belief in something for which there is no proof.


As anyone can see, these are not my definitions. It is not something I insist on, or how I ''understand it.''

This is just the definition of faith in relation to any belief that is held without the support of evidence.

As we have no evidence for the existence of any of the many versions of God or gods, to believe in these things is a matter of faith: as defined above.

You don't have a leg to stand on."



Nope and as usual you are either just plain wrong or in some clumsy attempt to “redefine” biblical. "What a load of Crock is right. You retreat into your own mind and dredge up nonsense based on your own opinion and NOT based on Jesus or Chrisian doctrine.

Like MM, you are simply making things up in an apparent attempt to convince ... yourself.....IDK...

So…..in this case you build a strawman to knock down.




Faith…..

1. - Where does “faith in God” come from?

Romans 1:16-17 ….”Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.”


2. – How does one receive “faith.” Faith is a gift but you must stretch out your hand and receive it. A “gift” is not a gift unless the recipient takes it. Believe the testimony of the Spirit about your own sin and the truth about Jesus and “choose” or “believe” …. Or “accept”…… use your own descriptor words here …. and faith is imparted to you. When it is imparted, there is no more doubt.

Ephesians 2:8-9……”For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”


3. – Once you have faith, it is very very real.

Hebrews 11:1…..”Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen…”

Get that? “… the EVIDENCE of things not see.”

Simple terms…. “proof”

One can view this faith as “assurance”… or as confidence or simple “reality” …. Or as a “firm foundation”…. Or….. “the real being of..”…. or “ the actual existence of” ….or a “resolute trust” …. Or as “the substantial nature of….”


There are two points here... the first is that yes, there is real, reliable evidence..... the second is..... you... as yet, do not have it.

Good morning Richard. I hope you are doing well.
I just read your post and it reminded me of a similar thing my former pastor often said with much conviction. It got me to thinking and so I opened my Bible. Supernaturally, the Holy Spirit brought me directly to this verse.

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
Romans 8:11

So we have confirmation that God the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead.

Next, I turned to I Corinthians 6:14
"And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power."

Lastly, it reminded me of a passage that made me repent, (change my mind), about what my pastor was very adamant about. Years ago in my reading John 10:17, 18 struck me.

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

After many years, I finally learned by the Holy Spirit in study that not only was the Father involved in Jesus resurrection, but also the Spirit. I was blessed to discover this doctrine that not only did the Father and the Spirit raise Jesus, but He Himself took back His life again. So, it was revealed to me that the entire Trinity was involved in raising Jesus Christ on the third day.

If you take an open Bible and study on this, I would be interested in your opinion.

I hope you too are blessed by this.


Frank

Exactly; God gives meaning to pain and suffering by coming in the flesh and participating in it Himself.

That to me has always been one of the chief problems with the “what kind of god would do/allow this” argument.

That and the fact that any value judgment as to what is good or just or whatever assumes some objective standard outside ourselves against which one can make the original accusation. The assertion is self contradictory.

If there is no God and Carl Sagan was right that the material universe is all that is or was or will ever be, then there is no good or bad, fair or just or anything there just is what is.

People need a little trouble to keep them on their toes, like an airplane needs turbulence to fly.

That's from The Power of Positive Thinking.

Maybe because the enormous evidence (no proof).....so my question to you in return is this: Given “all that we know today,” what are the odds that unguided evolution resulted in organisms like us with such remarkable abilities? Should primates really be good at physics, given our current theories in evolution and physics?

After all, natural selection sifts for genetic variations and traits that provide survival advantage. But producing humans with the cognitive hardware and software capable of discovering subatomic particles would have been overkill. Our actual intellectual abilities would have been wasteful luxuries — at least on the African savanna where our ancestors, we are told, were running from cheetahs or whatever.

So, neo-Darwinian evolution would have gone far above and beyond the call of duty. It’s not impossible, I suppose, but it seems highly unlikely, given our current theories of physics and evolution. And it is those very theories that supposedly show that God doesn’t exist. There’s an extreme tension here. In any case, given all that we know today — given what science has told us — how can you be so confident about your atheism?

This is not an argument and, no, it does not mean that I know it all - impossible - and I hope never to behave as if I think I do. So, I make it a practice not to jump onto atheist threads (especially daily) and try to critique or undermine anything on which atheists base their beliefs/positions.

OTOH, you do so on a thread about Christianity and fling out these sweeping declarations, claiming also to be heavy duty evidence and proof based. However, when asked for your beloved and devoted evidence/truth, you provide practically none and almost exclusively refer your questioner to the opinions and writings of others. Apparently you are willing to accept their views without evidence or proof. Very strange. Seems like time to leave the maze.

Some really good commentary and perspectives from many participants on this thread. Thank y’all.

DBT, you may be familiar with those, but I don't deal in loads of Croc - that must happen only in OZ where Dundee chases 'em down.

And, I am not standing on anything - merely illuminating the disingenuous tactics you employ to sneak out from under heavy questions. I dare say that anyone on this thread leading a faith-based Christian life long ago became aware of the various and sometimes superfluous definitions of "faith:" as you cite them here. Most likely they also fathom and celebrate the unique and blessed nature of such a condition. And, by now, they probably also realize that you do not have even a notion of why and how one would so live. All is well - wander along.

They all claim to be the truth and claim the true god. The details are otherwise nuances that don't mean anything given the flawed assertions in the first place.

That's the slogan that they all use. It gets old.

You have a comprehension issue - you can and try to re-read what I posted, or the problem may be more profound than that.

Atheism isn't a belief system. It's a skeptical default position. Throw us some irrefutable, demonstrable proof of your claim that is true for all and it can be considered from there - this hasn't happened yet. Science has been gradually claiming all of the gods powers, like they never actually existing.

You're just being defensive.

What's wrong with asking people why they have faith and drilling down on some of the finer points? Wouldn't they already have done that to convince themselves?


I have trust that their works are the best possible explanations possible because they are recognised experts in their fields and are subject to peer review by fellow experts. Like most people I have trust in many things in daily life because it's impossible to research and maintain a normal life, but it would be possible to do so. I trust my car won't simply fall apart on the road and I could research the design that was undertaken to produce the car, the inspection and testing procedures, the qualifications and training of the service personnel, the testing and verification of the spare parts used etc. There is evidence to be found if I went looking for it. There is none of this with faith.


I doubt that anyone would drive a vehicle assembled by talented chimpanzees and then prayed to god to establish road worthiness.

You missed the point… on purpose I suppose…... Only the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit fill the believer this side of eternity. Even you can admit that that is a very significant difference…..

Nope, I saw your point when you first wrote it. You are simply trying to avoid the “not God” choice/position by weakly saying you have “no reason to believe” so it is not a “choice.”

So, is it correct to refer to you as a “non-believer?”……. with respect to Jesus…

This guy gets me

So given to my 1st paragraph above....." Maybe because of the enormous evidence (no proof).....so my question to you in return is this: Given “all that we know today,” what are the odds that unguided evolution resulted in organisms like us with such remarkable abilities? Should primates really be good at physics, given our current theories in evolution and physics?"

I do not know what Jesus looks like, but if you saw the below in person, would that convince you of an afterlife...just curious...

You got proof of this? Not just what was written (people can write anything - doesn't even have to be true).

Non-believer would be okay and applicable to all gods/supernatural/etc in my case BTW - that is different to someone who believes something to be untrue. It's not a two option answer (hence the "false dichotomy" response earlier) - the choices are more like "I believe you; I believe the opposite is true; I don't believe you, but don't believe the opposite is necessarily true either (need proof to confirm either way)".

I would say "Who's the drag queen?".


Jesus (if he existed) was middle eastern and probably looked like this:




Your first paragraph is a typical "god of the gaps" fallacy response. You have to prove that a god exists and that he/she/it created everything. The correct answer is "we don't have all the answers (yet)". It's no excuse to make stuff up in the meantime.

I must have said it to you many times....that there is loads of evidence, but no actual proof....I also said I do not know what Jesus looks like....and I give you that he may have looked like your image....but, if you did see one of the images in person, what that convince you of an afterlife?

Never mind...you will say something snarky and will never say yes or no....

You don't realise that evidence is proof, and confirms a proposition. You see stuff that you think is evidence, but without a valid proposition, it's just stuff without a valid proposition. You claim it's evidence for your invalid proposition.

You showed me a picture of a guy in a dress and I showed you a picture of a middle eastern man. If I saw a guy in a dress why would I think it was Jesus? Was he a renowned cross-dresser that loved the white make-up?


If there is an all powerful, loving god, he/she/it would surely be able to make him/her/itself known to all beyond any shadow of a doubt - this has never happened.

Comment about the blather above as written and posted earlier by mauserand9mm:
"You got proof of this? Not just what was written (people can write anything - doesn't even have to be true)" That smells like self-description.

And, that last sentence above in red is a prime example of desperation - a ridiculous attempt at example - too silly to take seriously. Get relevant. And you say "defensive"?