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I guess it's natural for some disagreements, Saint Nicklos punched out a fellow priest.
These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
"May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
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I guess it's natural for some disagreements, Saint Nicklos punched out a fellow priest. Catholics and Protestants take it a step further, and they're almost on the same side.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Renowned New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman clearly and unequivocally says that the very reason that he lost his faith and embraced agnosticism and atheism was because of pain and suffering in the world. Period.
But Christianity has never taught of an earthy world without pain and suffering. Pain and suffering don’t disprove the existence of God. It only disproves the existence of a god who doesn’t allow pain and suffering.
And that’s not the god of Christianity. Christianity’s God promised that there would be pain and suffering in this world. The very movement of Christianity itself in fact involves the pain and suffering of the most innocent man who had ever lived.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Renowned New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman clearly and unequivocally says that the very reason that he lost his faith and embraced agnosticism and atheism was because of pain and suffering in the world. Period.
But Christianity has never taught of an earthy world without pain and suffering. Pain and suffering don’t disprove the existence of God. It only disproves the existence of a god who doesn’t allow pain and suffering.
And that’s not the god of Christianity. Christianity’s God promised that there would be pain and suffering in this world. The very movement of Christianity itself in fact involves the pain and suffering of the most innocent man who had ever lived. I’ve avoided this thread but just looked at the last page and saw this. Hard to disagree.
MAGA
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Antlers,
Often I hear or read about "the God of love". That is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible is Infinite! Not Infinite from neutral to nice. No! The God of the Bible instituted pain and suffering and death as a result of Adam's sin. Remember He told Eve, "I will greatly increase your pain..."
People can and do reject God for all kinds of reasons. Most are illogical. Some are just too vain to accept A Superior Being.
At the resurrection God will give more reason to love Him or give more reason to not love Him. So simple.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Folks read the bible really weird.
Pro tip- when you read "God said" it usually means "hey we think God says this".
Then Jesus comes along and clarifies things when he says "if you've seen me you've seen the Father"
Basically Jesus is saying everyone else's statements regarding who/what God is are royally fuqqed up . . .
That's why the religious leaders weren't a fan.
But the whole modern Christian thing worships the Bible, not Jesus. .
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[quote=mauserand9mm][quote=TF49]Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian. All other religions claim the same “proof” – you sure you haven’t been fooled by Satan? It sounds like the sort thing that he would convince you of. Accept or reject....Choose wisely..... Serious consideration would require evidence. Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence and sounds more like a gambling issue. Oh?, but faith is made of demonstrable evidence as in textual studies, to show that we have trustworthy versions of the original biblical documents....historical studies, to show that there is considerable demonstrable truth in the Gospels.....biblical studies, to demonstrate the remarkable consistency the Bible demonstrates from beginning to end.... the use of philosophical arguments to show that there is a reasonably high probability that God exists.....then there is the non-eternality of the physical universe....the unique nature of humans, including rationality, consciousness, moral responsibility.... fine-tuning of the universe to permit chemical complexity, and thereby life itself....the existential conflict of humans: our awareness of falling short of something better.... so yes, I consider the above as EVIDENCE.....but, and this is a big but, there is no actual PROOF....that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF....gambling issue (Pasqual's Wager), yes, that is what started me off in believing (decades ago) as the stakes would just too high for me not to believe... like I said before, I am choosing to believe because the fifty-fifty odds are just too great for me to wager...so I will continue to pray, ask for forgiveness, and always do the right thing.... But I don't believe that it can stop there. I must become mature in my faith and have definitive reasons for it that are based on the truth and not just pragmatism, because as stated before, God can see what is truly in the heart. The bible is factually and historically wrong, written over centuries past the alledged events and by some unknown authors. And there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. Don't even start to talk about the inconsistencies and contradictions, and lack of clarity. What is it, 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book? The bible is evidence than many people wrote a book. Harry Potter has at least a known author. You still cling to the totally flawed Pascal's Wager - it could be argued to show that the atheist is going to be better off, but gambling taken seriously is prety stupid anyway. Well, my friend, I wrote of evidence and not of proof...that is my story...you may choose as you believe..i like the biblical evidence.... Fair enough, but some people prefer demonstrated truth over what they would like to be true. ...the Wager is not flawed from my perspective...either there is or either there is not an afterlife. You only factor in one god except there are thousands of gods to choose from - not good odds from the get go. Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god. Wrong, re-read way above....I said "that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF..." ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/Wc7iWNq.jpg) Like I said, there are thousands of gods, and not all will condemn you to hellfire. Even Jesus didn't preach of a hell. To me there is only one God(of the Bible) and that is my belief...if I am wrong then I am fu*ked.....atheist believe in no God and if you are wrong then you are fu*ked...if we are both wrong, then I guess we are both un-fu*ked.....who knows what hell is actually like....some people believe it is hellfire, some believe it is a perpetual sadness, a loneliness...like I said I am hanging on to what I believe...[/quote] Superstitious people go for the stick and carrot. I don't worry about it, I have no reason to worry about it.[/quote] I am not superstitious.....just a believer and have no reason to worry either...I'm making my choice, and you are making your choice.
Illegitimi non carborundum
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The issue is faith. That faith is a poor means of sorting fact from fiction. An absence of evidence does not support a justified conviction, nor does redefining evidence to suit one's needs alter the terms of justification. The above position may very well be useful for the person who has no knowledge or direct experience with the dynamics of faith. Do tell. Look around and see what people are placing their faith in, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, politics, various ideologies..... If nothing else, you seem consistent - you again missed the point entirely. Sorry - the universe does not revolve around the navel of your perceptions. That's not an argument. It's angst. Sour Grapes. The point is that faith is a poor means of determining truth. In fact, because you begin with a conclusion of truth, it is not the way to sort fact from fiction. For that you need an open mind, to be willing to consider other possibilities, however unpalatable these possibilities may be. It might have been helpful - and more intellectually honest - for you have begun that declaration with something like "the concept of faith as I know and understand it - - - ". Most likely, no one here is going to argue that opinion as you expressed it - it is very closed mind oriented and in it you reveal your limited understanding of the concept of faith. Of course you are welcome to your view and the expression of it, but when engaging the deep and wide matters of involved with such faith, your view comes across and simplistic and childish - and not useful for discussion or growth. The definition of faith I refer to is in the dictionary, as defined in the dictionary in relation to religion. It is not my definition. Nor is it 'how I understand faith,' but how it is in fact defined. Your rationale is disingenuous. " No - not disingenuous at all - straightforward. The definition you put in force here is "your" definition. If your secretly hold to a definition but actually pose one that is different, that indeed is disingenuous behavior. Still not useful. either way.
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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mauserand9mm, it seems normal here for you to make huge and sweeping claims about "fact", which immediately make your claims suspect. Yet, you claim such heavy dependence on evidence and proof, and pretend that all others should do that as you do. This is your big opportunity to be convincing. So, please provide the hard evidence and proof that caused you to believe the truth of these, your utterances, as selected from your posts and noted below Hard evidence and proof now – not observations or opinions. You said this stuff – underlines to provide focus for hard facts. Everybody says that their god is the real god All other religions claim the same “proof” (with regard to the spirit of truth living in one’s faith) Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book (Bible) The bible is factually and historically wrong - - - alledged (sic) events - - - - there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. there are thousands of gods to choose from - - - - - Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god Waiting here - just pop out those facts and proofs and all will be well. Sure. I don’t have a compendium of dismissing the religious bullsh it but I’ll try and point you to some good sources of information. Everybody says that their god is the real god Huh? Why would you have issue with this? Don’t you think people who believe in a god believe that their god is the real god? You must be on crack. All other religions claim the same “proof” (with regard to the spirit of truth living in one’s faith) That onus is on your guys. Proof would be demonstrable and attributable to it’s proven source (eg god provided you with a soul and you need to feel him in your heart yada yada yada). Still waiting for the evidence. 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book (Bible) Looks like I may have got this wrong – there are 200 Christian denominations in the US, and about 45,000 globally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominationshttps://www.livescience.com/christianity-denominations.htmlThe bible is factually and historically wrong - - - alledged (sic) events - - - - there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. There’s a f uck-ton of useful information here for starters: https://ehrmanblog.org/tag/biblical-discrepancies/Bart used to be one of you guys before he saw the light, but that's only because he put in the hard yards and did proper research. There are many others who have also done so. The fantastic events still go unsupported and unsubstantiated - you got any proof that you are withholding from us? there are thousands of gods to choose from - - - - - Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god Maybe only your god is the jealous one. You fail mauserand9mm - posted a bunch of someone else's claims and specious data, and proved nothing. Come up with your proofs, please.
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mauserand9mm, it seems normal here for you to make huge and sweeping claims about "fact", which immediately make your claims suspect. Yet, you claim such heavy dependence on evidence and proof, and pretend that all others should do that as you do. This is your big opportunity to be convincing. So, please provide the hard evidence and proof that caused you to believe the truth of these, your utterances, as selected from your posts and noted below Hard evidence and proof now – not observations or opinions. You said this stuff – underlines to provide focus for hard facts. Everybody says that their god is the real god All other religions claim the same “proof” (with regard to the spirit of truth living in one’s faith) Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book (Bible) The bible is factually and historically wrong - - - alledged (sic) events - - - - there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. there are thousands of gods to choose from - - - - - Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god Waiting here - just pop out those facts and proofs and all will be well. Sure. I don’t have a compendium of dismissing the religious bullsh it but I’ll try and point you to some good sources of information. Everybody says that their god is the real god Huh? Why would you have issue with this? Don’t you think people who believe in a god believe that their god is the real god? You must be on crack. All other religions claim the same “proof” (with regard to the spirit of truth living in one’s faith) That onus is on your guys. Proof would be demonstrable and attributable to it’s proven source (eg god provided you with a soul and you need to feel him in your heart yada yada yada). Still waiting for the evidence. 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book (Bible) Looks like I may have got this wrong – there are 200 Christian denominations in the US, and about 45,000 globally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominationshttps://www.livescience.com/christianity-denominations.htmlThe bible is factually and historically wrong - - - alledged (sic) events - - - - there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. There’s a f uck-ton of useful information here for starters: https://ehrmanblog.org/tag/biblical-discrepancies/Bart used to be one of you guys before he saw the light, but that's only because he put in the hard yards and did proper research. There are many others who have also done so. The fantastic events still go unsupported and unsubstantiated - you got any proof that you are withholding from us? there are thousands of gods to choose from - - - - - Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god Maybe only your god is the jealous one. You fail mauserand9mm - posted a bunch of someone else's claims and specious data, and proved nothing. Come up with your proofs, please. Hey, I don't know it all. There are experts in their fields, under peer review, and researchers also subject to skeptic review. That's why I direct you to the their work. So does that mean you know it all on your side of the arguement, or is that just what you believe?
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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The issue is faith. That faith is a poor means of sorting fact from fiction. An absence of evidence does not support a justified conviction, nor does redefining evidence to suit one's needs alter the terms of justification. The above position may very well be useful for the person who has no knowledge or direct experience with the dynamics of faith. Do tell. Look around and see what people are placing their faith in, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, politics, various ideologies..... If nothing else, you seem consistent - you again missed the point entirely. Sorry - the universe does not revolve around the navel of your perceptions. That's not an argument. It's angst. Sour Grapes. The point is that faith is a poor means of determining truth. In fact, because you begin with a conclusion of truth, it is not the way to sort fact from fiction. For that you need an open mind, to be willing to consider other possibilities, however unpalatable these possibilities may be. It might have been helpful - and more intellectually honest - for you have begun that declaration with something like "the concept of faith as I know and understand it - - - ". Most likely, no one here is going to argue that opinion as you expressed it - it is very closed mind oriented and in it you reveal your limited understanding of the concept of faith. Of course you are welcome to your view and the expression of it, but when engaging the deep and wide matters of involved with such faith, your view comes across and simplistic and childish - and not useful for discussion or growth. The definition of faith I refer to is in the dictionary, as defined in the dictionary in relation to religion. It is not my definition. Nor is it 'how I understand faith,' but how it is in fact defined. Your rationale is disingenuous. " No - not disingenuous at all - straightforward. The definition you put in force here is "your" definition. If your secretly hold to a definition but actually pose one that is different, that indeed is disingenuous behavior. Still not useful. either way. What a load of Crock. I don't write the definitions given in dictionaries. As it happens, there is a condition where people hold convictions without the support of evidence....which is why we say they have faith that their conviction is true. Now, as we are talking about religion, which is a belief in any of a number of versions of God or gods, without the support of evidence, what do our dictionaries tell us? faith 2: belief that is not based on proof: (He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.) 3: belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion. Definition of faithb- 1: firm belief in something for which there is no proof. As anyone can see, these are not my definitions. It is not something I insist on, or how I ''understand it.'' This is just the definition of faith in relation to any belief that is held without the support of evidence. As we have no evidence for the existence of any of the many versions of God or gods, to believe in these things is a matter of faith: as defined above. You don't have a leg to stand on.
Last edited by DBT; 06/15/22.
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Superstitious people go for the stick and carrot. I don't worry about it, I have no reason to worry about it. I am not superstitious.....just a believer and have no reason to worry either...I'm making my choice, and you are making your choice. My position is the skeptical clean slate. I'm not chosing to not believe, i simply have no reason to believe. If something were demonstrably true, I would have no reason not to believe. Why choose to beleve something that you don't know to be true?
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Folks read the bible really weird.
Pro tip- when you read "God said" it usually means "hey we think God says this".
Then Jesus comes along and clarifies things when he says "if you've seen me you've seen the Father"
Basically Jesus is saying everyone else's statements regarding who/what God is are royally fuqqed up . . .
That's why the religious leaders weren't a fan.
But the whole modern Christian thing worships the Bible, not Jesus. . And that expains the flustercluck of denominations from the one "source of truth".
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian. All other religions claim the same “proof” – you sure you haven’t been fooled by Satan? It sounds like the sort thing that he would convince you of. Accept or reject....Choose wisely..... False dichotomy right there – not accepting is not the same as rejecting. Serious consideration would require evidence. Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence and sounds more like a gambling issue. MM, It is not my experience that other religions claim the same thing. I have been around plenty of Moslems and a few Hindus in my travels and had a number of”religious” conversations with more than just a few of them….. not once has a Muslim or Hindu said anything….not one word about the indwelling of the Almighty in them. Unless you can justify your statement, your statement that “all religions claim the same proof” is false. Just more cliches from you…..
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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The issue is faith. That faith is a poor means of sorting fact from fiction. An absence of evidence does not support a justified conviction, nor does redefining evidence to suit one's needs alter the terms of justification. Kinda agree.....but you can’t see wind – but it exists – because of the evidence.... Wind is detectable. Air is detectable. And God is most certainly detectable….. but one has to seek and search…. Seek and find…… Don’t seek….don’t find. God is not detectable in the same way as air or other physical phenomena, objective, testable, falsifiable. Those who believe assume a creator because the world is complex and it is assumed that this couldn't have came about without a creator. Faith, not science or philosophy. Well, yes….God is Spirit and yes, you do not detect Him. But, “detectable” He is…..whether you think so or not. See,s to me that you just keep on talking to yourself…. Are you just “whistling in a graveyard?”
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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And not to forget to mention that many people find god, but it's not always the same god. Must be more than one. Nope…. Only One God ….. but many counterfeits.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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[quote=CaptArab]Folks read the bible really weird.
Pro tip- when you read "God said" it usually means "hey we think God says this".
Then Jesus comes along and clarifies things when he says "if you've seen me you've seen the Father"
Basically Jesus is saying everyone else's statements regarding who/what God is are royally fuqqed up . . .
That's why the religious leaders weren't a fan.
But the whole modern Christian thing worships the Bible, not Jesus. . And that expains the flustercluck of denominations from the one "source of truth".[/quote No it doesn’t….and CA is just spouting off….. filled,with angst perhaps?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Superstitious people go for the stick and carrot. I don't worry about it, I have no reason to worry about it. I am not superstitious.....just a believer and have no reason to worry either...I'm making my choice, and you are making your choice. My position is the skeptical clean slate. I'm not chosing to not believe, i simply have no reason to believe. If something were demonstrably true, I would have no reason not to believe. Why choose to beleve something that you don't know to be true? Sadly, you are wrong, you are indeed choosing and you are choosing “Not God.”
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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The is The Holy Trinitey, God in three Persons, as Les Feldick points out, Jesus could not have raised himself from the dead.
These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
"May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
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DBT posted.....
"What a load of Crock. I don't write the definitions given in dictionaries.
As it happens, there is a condition where people hold convictions without the support of evidence....which is why we say they have faith that their conviction is true.
Now, as we are talking about religion, which is a belief in any of a number of versions of God or gods, without the support of evidence, what do our dictionaries tell us?
faith
2: belief that is not based on proof: (He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.)
3: belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion.
Definition of faith
b- 1: firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
As anyone can see, these are not my definitions. It is not something I insist on, or how I ''understand it.''
This is just the definition of faith in relation to any belief that is held without the support of evidence.
As we have no evidence for the existence of any of the many versions of God or gods, to believe in these things is a matter of faith: as defined above.
You don't have a leg to stand on."
Nope and as usual you are either just plain wrong or in some clumsy attempt to “redefine” biblical. "What a load of Crock is right. You retreat into your own mind and dredge up nonsense based on your own opinion and NOT based on Jesus or Chrisian doctrine.
Like MM, you are simply making things up in an apparent attempt to convince ... yourself.....IDK...
So…..in this case you build a strawman to knock down.
Faith…..
1. - Where does “faith in God” come from?
Romans 1:16-17 ….”Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.”
2. – How does one receive “faith.” Faith is a gift but you must stretch out your hand and receive it. A “gift” is not a gift unless the recipient takes it. Believe the testimony of the Spirit about your own sin and the truth about Jesus and “choose” or “believe” …. Or “accept”…… use your own descriptor words here …. and faith is imparted to you. When it is imparted, there is no more doubt.
Ephesians 2:8-9……”For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”
3. – Once you have faith, it is very very real.
Hebrews 11:1…..”Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen…”
Get that? “… the EVIDENCE of things not see.”
Simple terms…. “proof”
One can view this faith as “assurance”… or as confidence or simple “reality” …. Or as a “firm foundation”…. Or….. “the real being of..”…. or “ the actual existence of” ….or a “resolute trust” …. Or as “the substantial nature of….”
There are two points here... the first is that yes, there is real, reliable evidence..... the second is..... you... as yet, do not have it.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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