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The issue is faith. That faith is a poor means of sorting fact from fiction. An absence of evidence does not support a justified conviction, nor does redefining evidence to suit one's needs alter the terms of justification. The above position may very well be useful for the person who has no knowledge or direct experience with the dynamics of faith. Do tell. Look around and see what people are placing their faith in, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, politics, various ideologies.....
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Campfire Ranger
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The issue is faith. That faith is a poor means of sorting fact from fiction. An absence of evidence does not support a justified conviction, nor does redefining evidence to suit one's needs alter the terms of justification. The above position may very well be useful for the person who has no knowledge or direct experience with the dynamics of faith. Do tell. Look around and see what people are placing their faith in, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, politics, various ideologies..... If nothing else, you seem consistent - you again missed the point entirely. Sorry - the universe does not revolve around the navel of your perceptions.
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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The issue is faith. That faith is a poor means of sorting fact from fiction. An absence of evidence does not support a justified conviction, nor does redefining evidence to suit one's needs alter the terms of justification. Kinda agree.....but you can’t see wind – but it exists – because of the evidence.... Wind is detectable. Air is detectable. And God is most certainly detectable….. but one has to seek and search…. Seek and find…… Don’t seek….don’t find. God is not detectable in the same way as air or other physical phenomena, objective, testable, falsifiable. Those who believe assume a creator because the world is complex and it is assumed that this couldn't have came about without a creator. Faith, not science or philosophy. Well, this thread is running out of steam, but I will make one last comment. Note what is said in John14:16-17...... Jesus speaking to the disciples.....right before the cross and his victory.... " And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever...the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you." So, here in a nutshell is an explanation.....There are posters on this thread that deny the reality of Jesus and discount the testimony of believers by asking "where's the proof." OK... Jesus is telling us that there are those people "in the world" that cannot accept God ... because they neither see him no know him. Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian. Simple.... Seek God, Find God.... Know God. Or..... Don't seek God, Don't find God and Don't Know God. The choice is indeed yours. oh... and no hiding behind that lame simplistic "predestination" stuff..... The Bible is replete with examples of God asking people to choose. Accept or reject....Choose wisely.....
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian. All other religions claim the same “proof” – you sure you haven’t been fooled by Satan? It sounds like the sort thing that he would convince you of. Accept or reject....Choose wisely..... False dichotomy right there – not accepting is not the same as rejecting. Serious consideration would require evidence. Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence and sounds more like a gambling issue.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Campfire Kahuna
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Remember the Cross, good men.
These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
"May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
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Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian. All other religions claim the same “proof” – you sure you haven’t been fooled by Satan? It sounds like the sort thing that he would convince you of. Accept or reject....Choose wisely..... Serious consideration would require evidence. Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence and sounds more like a gambling issue. Oh?, but faith is made of demonstrable evidence as in textual studies, to show that we have trustworthy versions of the original biblical documents....historical studies, to show that there is considerable demonstrable truth in the Gospels.....biblical studies, to demonstrate the remarkable consistency the Bible demonstrates from beginning to end.... the use of philosophical arguments to show that there is a reasonably high probability that God exists.....then there is the non-eternality of the physical universe....the unique nature of humans, including rationality, consciousness, moral responsibility.... fine-tuning of the universe to permit chemical complexity, and thereby life itself....the existential conflict of humans: our awareness of falling short of something better.... so yes, I consider the above as EVIDENCE.....but, and this is a big but, there is no actual PROOF....that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF....gambling issue (Pasqual's Wager), yes, that is what started me off in believing (decades ago) as the stakes were just too high for me not to believe... like I said before, I am choosing to believe because the fifty-fifty odds are just too great for me to wager...so I will continue to pray, ask for forgiveness, and always do the right thing.... But I don't believe that it can stop there. I must become mature in my faith and have definitive reasons for it that are based on the truth and not just pragmatism, because as stated before, God can see what is truly in the heart.
Last edited by Raspy; 06/13/22. Reason: spelling
Illegitimi non carborundum
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Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian. All other religions claim the same “proof” – you sure you haven’t been fooled by Satan? It sounds like the sort thing that he would convince you of. Accept or reject....Choose wisely..... Serious consideration would require evidence. Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence and sounds more like a gambling issue. Oh?, but faith is made of demonstrable evidence as in textual studies, to show that we have trustworthy versions of the original biblical documents....historical studies, to show that there is considerable demonstrable truth in the Gospels.....biblical studies, to demonstrate the remarkable consistency the Bible demonstrates from beginning to end.... the use of philosophical arguments to show that there is a reasonably high probability that God exists.....then there is the non-eternality of the physical universe....the unique nature of humans, including rationality, consciousness, moral responsibility.... fine-tuning of the universe to permit chemical complexity, and thereby life itself....the existential conflict of humans: our awareness of falling short of something better.... so yes, I consider the above as EVIDENCE.....but, and this is a big but, there is no actual PROOF....that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF....gambling issue (Pasqual's Wager), yes, that is what started me off in believing (decades ago) as the stakes would just too high for me not to believe... like I said before, I am choosing to believe because the fifty-fifty odds are just too great for me to wager...so I will continue to pray, ask for forgiveness, and always do the right thing.... But I don't believe that it can stop there. I must become mature in my faith and have definitive reasons for it that are based on the truth and not just pragmatism, because as stated before, God can see what is truly in the heart. The bible is factually and historically wrong, written over centuries past the alledged events and by some unknown authors. And there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. Don't even start to talk about the inconsistencies and contradictions, and lack of clarity. What is it, 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book? The bible is evidence than many people wrote a book. Harry Potter has at least a known author. You still cling to the totally flawed Pascal's Wager - it could be argued to show that the atheist is going to be better off, but gambling taken seriously is prety stupid anyway.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian. All other religions claim the same “proof” – you sure you haven’t been fooled by Satan? It sounds like the sort thing that he would convince you of. Accept or reject....Choose wisely..... Serious consideration would require evidence. Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence and sounds more like a gambling issue. Oh?, but faith is made of demonstrable evidence as in textual studies, to show that we have trustworthy versions of the original biblical documents....historical studies, to show that there is considerable demonstrable truth in the Gospels.....biblical studies, to demonstrate the remarkable consistency the Bible demonstrates from beginning to end.... the use of philosophical arguments to show that there is a reasonably high probability that God exists.....then there is the non-eternality of the physical universe....the unique nature of humans, including rationality, consciousness, moral responsibility.... fine-tuning of the universe to permit chemical complexity, and thereby life itself....the existential conflict of humans: our awareness of falling short of something better.... so yes, I consider the above as EVIDENCE.....but, and this is a big but, there is no actual PROOF....that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF....gambling issue (Pasqual's Wager), yes, that is what started me off in believing (decades ago) as the stakes would just too high for me not to believe... like I said before, I am choosing to believe because the fifty-fifty odds are just too great for me to wager...so I will continue to pray, ask for forgiveness, and always do the right thing.... But I don't believe that it can stop there. I must become mature in my faith and have definitive reasons for it that are based on the truth and not just pragmatism, because as stated before, God can see what is truly in the heart. The bible is factually and historically wrong, written over centuries past the alledged events and by some unknown authors. And there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. Don't even start to talk about the inconsistencies and contradictions, and lack of clarity. What is it, 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book? The bible is evidence than many people wrote a book. Harry Potter has at least a known author. You still cling to the totally flawed Pascal's Wager - it could be argued to show that the atheist is going to be better off, but gambling taken seriously is prety stupid anyway. Well, my friend, I wrote of evidence and not of proof...that is my story...you may choose as you believe..i like the biblical evidence....the Wager is not flawed from my perspective...either there is or either there is not an afterlife.
Illegitimi non carborundum
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Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian. All other religions claim the same “proof” – you sure you haven’t been fooled by Satan? It sounds like the sort thing that he would convince you of. Accept or reject....Choose wisely..... Serious consideration would require evidence. Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence and sounds more like a gambling issue. Oh?, but faith is made of demonstrable evidence as in textual studies, to show that we have trustworthy versions of the original biblical documents....historical studies, to show that there is considerable demonstrable truth in the Gospels.....biblical studies, to demonstrate the remarkable consistency the Bible demonstrates from beginning to end.... the use of philosophical arguments to show that there is a reasonably high probability that God exists.....then there is the non-eternality of the physical universe....the unique nature of humans, including rationality, consciousness, moral responsibility.... fine-tuning of the universe to permit chemical complexity, and thereby life itself....the existential conflict of humans: our awareness of falling short of something better.... so yes, I consider the above as EVIDENCE.....but, and this is a big but, there is no actual PROOF....that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF....gambling issue (Pasqual's Wager), yes, that is what started me off in believing (decades ago) as the stakes would just too high for me not to believe... like I said before, I am choosing to believe because the fifty-fifty odds are just too great for me to wager...so I will continue to pray, ask for forgiveness, and always do the right thing.... But I don't believe that it can stop there. I must become mature in my faith and have definitive reasons for it that are based on the truth and not just pragmatism, because as stated before, God can see what is truly in the heart. The bible is factually and historically wrong, written over centuries past the alledged events and by some unknown authors. And there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. Don't even start to talk about the inconsistencies and contradictions, and lack of clarity. What is it, 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book? The bible is evidence than many people wrote a book. Harry Potter has at least a known author. You still cling to the totally flawed Pascal's Wager - it could be argued to show that the atheist is going to be better off, but gambling taken seriously is prety stupid anyway. Well, my friend, I wrote of evidence and not of proof...that is my story...you may choose as you believe..i like the biblical evidence.... Fair enough, but some people prefer demonstrated truth over what they would like to be true. ...the Wager is not flawed from my perspective...either there is or either there is not an afterlife. You only factor in one god except there are thousands of gods to choose from - not good odds from the get go. Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Campfire Regular
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Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian. All other religions claim the same “proof” – you sure you haven’t been fooled by Satan? It sounds like the sort thing that he would convince you of. Accept or reject....Choose wisely..... Serious consideration would require evidence. Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence and sounds more like a gambling issue. Oh?, but faith is made of demonstrable evidence as in textual studies, to show that we have trustworthy versions of the original biblical documents....historical studies, to show that there is considerable demonstrable truth in the Gospels.....biblical studies, to demonstrate the remarkable consistency the Bible demonstrates from beginning to end.... the use of philosophical arguments to show that there is a reasonably high probability that God exists.....then there is the non-eternality of the physical universe....the unique nature of humans, including rationality, consciousness, moral responsibility.... fine-tuning of the universe to permit chemical complexity, and thereby life itself....the existential conflict of humans: our awareness of falling short of something better.... so yes, I consider the above as EVIDENCE.....but, and this is a big but, there is no actual PROOF....that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF....gambling issue (Pasqual's Wager), yes, that is what started me off in believing (decades ago) as the stakes would just too high for me not to believe... like I said before, I am choosing to believe because the fifty-fifty odds are just too great for me to wager...so I will continue to pray, ask for forgiveness, and always do the right thing.... But I don't believe that it can stop there. I must become mature in my faith and have definitive reasons for it that are based on the truth and not just pragmatism, because as stated before, God can see what is truly in the heart. The bible is factually and historically wrong, written over centuries past the alledged events and by some unknown authors. And there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. Don't even start to talk about the inconsistencies and contradictions, and lack of clarity. What is it, 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book? The bible is evidence than many people wrote a book. Harry Potter has at least a known author. You still cling to the totally flawed Pascal's Wager - it could be argued to show that the atheist is going to be better off, but gambling taken seriously is prety stupid anyway. Well, my friend, I wrote of evidence and not of proof...that is my story...you may choose as you believe..i like the biblical evidence.... Fair enough, but some people prefer demonstrated truth over what they would like to be true. ...the Wager is not flawed from my perspective...either there is or either there is not an afterlife. You only factor in one god except there are thousands of gods to choose from - not good odds from the get go. Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god. Wrong, re-read way above....I said "that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF..." ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/Wc7iWNq.jpg)
Illegitimi non carborundum
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Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian. All other religions claim the same “proof” – you sure you haven’t been fooled by Satan? It sounds like the sort thing that he would convince you of. Accept or reject....Choose wisely..... Serious consideration would require evidence. Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence and sounds more like a gambling issue. Oh?, but faith is made of demonstrable evidence as in textual studies, to show that we have trustworthy versions of the original biblical documents....historical studies, to show that there is considerable demonstrable truth in the Gospels.....biblical studies, to demonstrate the remarkable consistency the Bible demonstrates from beginning to end.... the use of philosophical arguments to show that there is a reasonably high probability that God exists.....then there is the non-eternality of the physical universe....the unique nature of humans, including rationality, consciousness, moral responsibility.... fine-tuning of the universe to permit chemical complexity, and thereby life itself....the existential conflict of humans: our awareness of falling short of something better.... so yes, I consider the above as EVIDENCE.....but, and this is a big but, there is no actual PROOF....that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF....gambling issue (Pasqual's Wager), yes, that is what started me off in believing (decades ago) as the stakes would just too high for me not to believe... like I said before, I am choosing to believe because the fifty-fifty odds are just too great for me to wager...so I will continue to pray, ask for forgiveness, and always do the right thing.... But I don't believe that it can stop there. I must become mature in my faith and have definitive reasons for it that are based on the truth and not just pragmatism, because as stated before, God can see what is truly in the heart. The bible is factually and historically wrong, written over centuries past the alledged events and by some unknown authors. And there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. Don't even start to talk about the inconsistencies and contradictions, and lack of clarity. What is it, 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book? The bible is evidence than many people wrote a book. Harry Potter has at least a known author. You still cling to the totally flawed Pascal's Wager - it could be argued to show that the atheist is going to be better off, but gambling taken seriously is prety stupid anyway. Well, my friend, I wrote of evidence and not of proof...that is my story...you may choose as you believe..i like the biblical evidence.... Fair enough, but some people prefer demonstrated truth over what they would like to be true. ...the Wager is not flawed from my perspective...either there is or either there is not an afterlife. You only factor in one god except there are thousands of gods to choose from - not good odds from the get go. Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god. Wrong, re-read way above....I said "that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF..." Like I said, there are thousands of gods, and not all will condemn you to hellfire. Even Jesus didn't preach of a hell.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Campfire Ranger
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There’s tremendous evidence that a tiny first century sect born in the armpit of the Roman Empire…and Judea was certainly that…whose leader was rejected by His own people and then crucified, survived and thrived in the face of violent and organized state sponsored resistance.
The fact that a Nazarene cult would eventually be embraced by the very Empire that for 300 years sought to exterminate it carries some heavy weight.
Those who have visited Rome can see that there’s a cross commemorating the crucifixion of Jesus mounted over the Emperor’s entrance at the Roman Colosseum.
Historians to this day ponder these facts and wonder how they came about…?
“Against all odds, by the third century, Christianity had become a force to be reckoned with. We still do not really understand how this came about.” - Karen Armstrong • Fields of Blood.
Nobody can deny that it happened. We don’t know how it happened…‘unless’ we take seriously and pay attention to the eyewitness accounts of the people who were there for these events and eventually documented them for the entire world. They actually saw them and they documented them. It’s amazing that it all happened.
Sandwiched between Empire and Temple…this tiny movement that began in Galilee…with a day laborer (Jesus of Nazareth), it’s amazing that we’ve even heard His name; and it’s amazing that anything about Him survived.
But it’s undeniable that it did.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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The issue is faith. That faith is a poor means of sorting fact from fiction. An absence of evidence does not support a justified conviction, nor does redefining evidence to suit one's needs alter the terms of justification. The above position may very well be useful for the person who has no knowledge or direct experience with the dynamics of faith. Do tell. Look around and see what people are placing their faith in, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, politics, various ideologies..... If nothing else, you seem consistent - you again missed the point entirely. Sorry - the universe does not revolve around the navel of your perceptions. That's not an argument. It's angst. Sour Grapes. The point is that faith is a poor means of determining truth. In fact, because you begin with a conclusion of truth, it is not the way to sort fact from fiction. For that you need an open mind, to be willing to consider other possibilities, however unpalatable these possibilities may be.
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Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian. All other religions claim the same “proof” – you sure you haven’t been fooled by Satan? It sounds like the sort thing that he would convince you of. Accept or reject....Choose wisely..... Serious consideration would require evidence. Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence and sounds more like a gambling issue. Oh?, but faith is made of demonstrable evidence as in textual studies, to show that we have trustworthy versions of the original biblical documents....historical studies, to show that there is considerable demonstrable truth in the Gospels.....biblical studies, to demonstrate the remarkable consistency the Bible demonstrates from beginning to end.... the use of philosophical arguments to show that there is a reasonably high probability that God exists.....then there is the non-eternality of the physical universe....the unique nature of humans, including rationality, consciousness, moral responsibility.... fine-tuning of the universe to permit chemical complexity, and thereby life itself....the existential conflict of humans: our awareness of falling short of something better.... so yes, I consider the above as EVIDENCE.....but, and this is a big but, there is no actual PROOF....that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF....gambling issue (Pasqual's Wager), yes, that is what started me off in believing (decades ago) as the stakes would just too high for me not to believe... like I said before, I am choosing to believe because the fifty-fifty odds are just too great for me to wager...so I will continue to pray, ask for forgiveness, and always do the right thing.... But I don't believe that it can stop there. I must become mature in my faith and have definitive reasons for it that are based on the truth and not just pragmatism, because as stated before, God can see what is truly in the heart. The bible is factually and historically wrong, written over centuries past the alledged events and by some unknown authors. And there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. Don't even start to talk about the inconsistencies and contradictions, and lack of clarity. What is it, 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book? The bible is evidence than many people wrote a book. Harry Potter has at least a known author. You still cling to the totally flawed Pascal's Wager - it could be argued to show that the atheist is going to be better off, but gambling taken seriously is prety stupid anyway. Well, my friend, I wrote of evidence and not of proof...that is my story...you may choose as you believe..i like the biblical evidence.... Fair enough, but some people prefer demonstrated truth over what they would like to be true. ...the Wager is not flawed from my perspective...either there is or either there is not an afterlife. You only factor in one god except there are thousands of gods to choose from - not good odds from the get go. Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god. Wrong, re-read way above....I said "that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF..." Like I said, there are thousands of gods, and not all will condemn you to hellfire. Even Jesus didn't preach of a hell. To me there is only one God(of the Bible) and that is my belief...if I am wrong then I am fu*ked.....atheist believe in no God and if you are wrong then you are fu*ked...if we are both wrong, then I guess we are both un-fu*ked.....who knows what hell is actually like....some people believe it is hellfire, some believe it is a perpetual sadness, a loneliness...like I said I am hanging on to what I believe...
Illegitimi non carborundum
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Campfire Ranger
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The 27 different books of the New Testament were written between 50 and 100 AD. That’s only 17 to 67 years after Jesus’ death and resurrection.
Our best surviving biography of Alexander the Great comes from nearly five hundred years after his death...! Nobody discredits it.
Author’s to this day are still writing non-fictional historical narratives of people who lived thousands of years ago, even before Jesus was born (Julius Caesar for example). Nobody discredits them.
Some selectively choose to hold the books of the Bible to clearly different standards than they do all of the other non-fiction historical narratives that are written.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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[quote=TF49]Further, the Holy Spirit.....".... lives with you (us) and will be IN you. So, when a Christian says "I have proof." He really does... the Spirit of Truth is living in that born again Christian. All other religions claim the same “proof” – you sure you haven’t been fooled by Satan? It sounds like the sort thing that he would convince you of. Accept or reject....Choose wisely..... Serious consideration would require evidence. Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence and sounds more like a gambling issue. Oh?, but faith is made of demonstrable evidence as in textual studies, to show that we have trustworthy versions of the original biblical documents....historical studies, to show that there is considerable demonstrable truth in the Gospels.....biblical studies, to demonstrate the remarkable consistency the Bible demonstrates from beginning to end.... the use of philosophical arguments to show that there is a reasonably high probability that God exists.....then there is the non-eternality of the physical universe....the unique nature of humans, including rationality, consciousness, moral responsibility.... fine-tuning of the universe to permit chemical complexity, and thereby life itself....the existential conflict of humans: our awareness of falling short of something better.... so yes, I consider the above as EVIDENCE.....but, and this is a big but, there is no actual PROOF....that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF....gambling issue (Pasqual's Wager), yes, that is what started me off in believing (decades ago) as the stakes would just too high for me not to believe... like I said before, I am choosing to believe because the fifty-fifty odds are just too great for me to wager...so I will continue to pray, ask for forgiveness, and always do the right thing.... But I don't believe that it can stop there. I must become mature in my faith and have definitive reasons for it that are based on the truth and not just pragmatism, because as stated before, God can see what is truly in the heart. The bible is factually and historically wrong, written over centuries past the alledged events and by some unknown authors. And there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. Don't even start to talk about the inconsistencies and contradictions, and lack of clarity. What is it, 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book? The bible is evidence than many people wrote a book. Harry Potter has at least a known author. You still cling to the totally flawed Pascal's Wager - it could be argued to show that the atheist is going to be better off, but gambling taken seriously is prety stupid anyway. Well, my friend, I wrote of evidence and not of proof...that is my story...you may choose as you believe..i like the biblical evidence.... Fair enough, but some people prefer demonstrated truth over what they would like to be true. ...the Wager is not flawed from my perspective...either there is or either there is not an afterlife. You only factor in one god except there are thousands of gods to choose from - not good odds from the get go. Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god. Wrong, re-read way above....I said "that is why Christians and others have the BELIEF..." Like I said, there are thousands of gods, and not all will condemn you to hellfire. Even Jesus didn't preach of a hell. To me there is only one God(of the Bible) and that is my belief...if I am wrong then I am fu*ked.....atheist believe in no God and if you are wrong then you are fu*ked...if we are both wrong, then I guess we are both un-fu*ked.....who knows what hell is actually like....some people believe it is hellfire, some believe it is a perpetual sadness, a loneliness...like I said I am hanging on to what I believe...[/quote] Superstitious people go for the stick and carrot. I don't worry about it, I have no reason to worry about it.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,570 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,570 Likes: 4 |
The issue is faith. That faith is a poor means of sorting fact from fiction. An absence of evidence does not support a justified conviction, nor does redefining evidence to suit one's needs alter the terms of justification. The above position may very well be useful for the person who has no knowledge or direct experience with the dynamics of faith. Do tell. Look around and see what people are placing their faith in, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, politics, various ideologies..... If nothing else, you seem consistent - you again missed the point entirely. Sorry - the universe does not revolve around the navel of your perceptions. That's not an argument. It's angst. Sour Grapes. The point is that faith is a poor means of determining truth. In fact, because you begin with a conclusion of truth, it is not the way to sort fact from fiction. For that you need an open mind, to be willing to consider other possibilities, however unpalatable these possibilities may be. It might have been helpful - and more intellectually honest - for you have begun that declaration with something like "the concept of faith as I know and understand it - - - ". Most likely, no one here is going to argue that opinion as you expressed it - it is very closed mind oriented and in it you reveal your limited understanding of the concept of faith. Of course you are welcome to your view and the expression of it, but when engaging the deep and wide matters of involved with such faith, your view comes across and simplistic and childish - and not useful for discussion or growth.
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,570 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,570 Likes: 4 |
mauserand9mm, it seems normal here for you to make huge and sweeping claims about "fact", which immediately make your claims suspect. Yet, you claim such heavy dependence on evidence and proof, and pretend that all others should do that as you do. This is your big opportunity to be convincing. So, please provide the hard evidence and proof that caused you to believe the truth of these, your utterances, as selected from your posts and noted below Hard evidence and proof now – not observations or opinions. You said this stuff – underlines to provide focus for hard facts. Everybody says that their god is the real god All other religions claim the same “proof” (with regard to the spirit of truth living in one’s faith) Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book (Bible) The bible is factually and historically wrong - - - alledged (sic) events - - - - there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. there are thousands of gods to choose from - - - - - Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god Waiting here - just pop out those facts and proofs and all will be well.
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,802 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,802 Likes: 1 |
mauserand9mm, it seems normal here for you to make huge and sweeping claims about "fact", which immediately make your claims suspect. Yet, you claim such heavy dependence on evidence and proof, and pretend that all others should do that as you do. This is your big opportunity to be convincing. So, please provide the hard evidence and proof that caused you to believe the truth of these, your utterances, as selected from your posts and noted below Hard evidence and proof now – not observations or opinions. You said this stuff – underlines to provide focus for hard facts. Everybody says that their god is the real god All other religions claim the same “proof” (with regard to the spirit of truth living in one’s faith) Faith choices are made without demonstrable evidence 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book (Bible) The bible is factually and historically wrong - - - alledged (sic) events - - - - there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. there are thousands of gods to choose from - - - - - Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god Waiting here - just pop out those facts and proofs and all will be well. Sure. I don’t have a compendium of dismissing the religious bullsh it but I’ll try and point you to some good sources of information. Everybody says that their god is the real god Huh? Why would you have issue with this? Don’t you think people who believe in a god believe that their god is the real god? You must be on crack. All other religions claim the same “proof” (with regard to the spirit of truth living in one’s faith) That onus is on your guys. Proof would be demonstrable and attributable to it’s proven source (eg god provided you with a soul and you need to feel him in your heart yada yada yada). Still waiting for the evidence. 200 denominations of Christians reading from the same book (Bible) Looks like I may have got this wrong – there are 200 Christian denominations in the US, and about 45,000 globally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominationshttps://www.livescience.com/christianity-denominations.htmlThe bible is factually and historically wrong - - - alledged (sic) events - - - - there is zero evidence to support the fantastic events written down in it. There’s a f uck-ton of useful information here for starters: https://ehrmanblog.org/tag/biblical-discrepancies/Bart used to be one of you guys before he saw the light, but that's only because he put in the hard yards and did proper research. There are many others who have also done so. The fantastic events still go unsupported and unsubstantiated - you got any proof that you are withholding from us? there are thousands of gods to choose from - - - - - Many are jealous gods and will be upset if you choose a false god Maybe only your god is the jealous one.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,656 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,656 Likes: 1 |
The issue is faith. That faith is a poor means of sorting fact from fiction. An absence of evidence does not support a justified conviction, nor does redefining evidence to suit one's needs alter the terms of justification. The above position may very well be useful for the person who has no knowledge or direct experience with the dynamics of faith. Do tell. Look around and see what people are placing their faith in, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, politics, various ideologies..... If nothing else, you seem consistent - you again missed the point entirely. Sorry - the universe does not revolve around the navel of your perceptions. That's not an argument. It's angst. Sour Grapes. The point is that faith is a poor means of determining truth. In fact, because you begin with a conclusion of truth, it is not the way to sort fact from fiction. For that you need an open mind, to be willing to consider other possibilities, however unpalatable these possibilities may be. It might have been helpful - and more intellectually honest - for you have begun that declaration with something like "the concept of faith as I know and understand it - - - ". Most likely, no one here is going to argue that opinion as you expressed it - it is very closed mind oriented and in it you reveal your limited understanding of the concept of faith. Of course you are welcome to your view and the expression of it, but when engaging the deep and wide matters of involved with such faith, your view comes across and simplistic and childish - and not useful for discussion or growth. The definition of faith I refer to is in the dictionary, as defined in the dictionary in relation to religion. It is not my definition. Nor is it 'how I understand faith,' but how it is in fact defined. Your rationale is disingenuous.
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