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Thank The Good Lord for Grace!!!

Paul stipulates Grace alone, "lest you not boast." If salvation is a gift, a gift is freely given. If a gift is conditional salvation is a trade, not an act of grace or a gift.

"I believe, help my unbelieve ."

Ah. A great quote (and summation for the right help to seek) for when the 'old Adam' and the 'new man' struggle arises within.

The quote from James is the one most often used. I notice that no one who uses that verse to discuss their personal holiness doesn’t do so because they can’t.

There really isn’t a conflict between the two. James is talking about justification before men rather than God. People mistakenly read that as justification before God and keep parroting bad theology.

EFW nailed down the traditional Christian view to which I hold.

Both can't be true. If salvation purely through grace is true, one's works are irrelevant.

You intentionally ignored the crystal clear point and the crystal clear distinction that IZH27 made above. Why is that…?

Ya can't bark to become a dog. Dogs bark because they ARE dogs.

You're clueless as usual.....

James 2:14–26 is sometimes taken out of context in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, but that is contrary to many other passages of Scripture. James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works.

Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many verses that say that true saving faith will result in a transformed life, that faith is demonstrated by the works we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith. Many profess to be Christians, but their lives and priorities indicate otherwise. Jesus put it this way: “By their fruits you will know them.

DBT, after your proclamation, these Christian guys have just schooled you - again - in a gentle and straightforward manner. Did you learn the lesson?

Most church’s gloss over the fact that the Bible is actually a library of the first recorded books… Written by different authors to different purposes, people and even timelines.

They don’t even tell you that humans are creatures off meaning with a set of stories of who you actually are, and some constructed persona that use you to negotiate between yourself and others…

If you understand that the Bible is a set of stories of people in different situations, some of which being normal human beings, some being extra good / extra bad…. Then you get the fact that you should search the stories to see what you should be telling yourself about who you are and how you should behave.

Many people will bark our rules - just like children do in pre-school… their aim is to feel better about their integration of the stories so their behavior is better than yours. This is NOT a person who wants better for you… so even though it may seem they are “godly” their purpose isn’t what the stories in the Bible tell you.


What the stories in the Bible tell you is that life is hard and sucks, and that you need to be responsible and act in a way that protects you, and those you have a relationship with and or social contract with (Do good works)…

The Spartans said - come back with your shield or on it…. But what most people don’t understand is that you had a helmet that protected you, as well as chest armor…. But your Shield protects you and the guys on each side of you… Lose it and you put all 3 of you to risk… and you aren’t doing your duty to the society if you lose your shield…

This is older than the Bible - but if you read the Bible you will find “put the body” (those acting in accordance with God) before your own protection and then you are living right in everything…

Good works are that, coupled with the fact that you have responsibility to take what you were given and support the body…. (Don’t leave your light under a bushel, aid your brother when he is need… )

the stories are to help you create a framework of what is good and bad and how to act…
Notice it isn’t a Disney story…. You need to be strong, but keep your sword sheathed for the most part..

Hope this helps.

A couple examples of taking the stories from the library and applying those to life…. (Use as intended)

Don’t spare the rod with Children.

Today it’s a known fact that if a child is “liked” by the time they are 4 years old (vs. rebellious & difficult), the will be much more successful in life than if they ran around hitting kids and being rebellious…because they are too aggressive and no one helped teach them to behave in such a way that other adults and children like them…. So socialize your kids !!


Love the mother and Father -

I can’t count how many people don’t bother to solve & own their [bleep]… so that they have a good relationship with their parents. Even my own son had some issues because of the family thing…. But after I fixed my own “[bleep]” … I took him through family events where he enjoyed himself, and all of a sudden his entire “shot at happiness” has changed. We are human and need real connections to understand who we are and where we come from… don’t raise your kids of lead your family in a way that makes room for your bonds like that and you live in a sort of Chaos… which weakens the family and the community….

Faith / confidence / resiliency -

Faith is sticking to your promises / social contracts/ and your word…. How many stories are there Lot, Abraham, …. Do what’s right stick to your purpose and things work out for the better - maybe not for you but for the family and for the community…
It make you less if you don’t stick to your word, as well as not helping others…
Frankly today Faith is confusing as hell to most people - they are focused on immediate gain - for me… screw that, the fabric of our reality should be than people keep their word and do the best they can to honor it…
There are a hell of a lot of military folks like this… not all of them but they are easier to spot there than most places.


I’m older now so I’m explaining these things to my son who has the same …. Church is just a bunch of BS ideology…. And frankly anyone can take a story and dumb it down to simple ideologies and use it for their own purpose.

The reality is responsibility to examine the “stories” society, friends, family, even the church tell you to see what’s right as a good man.
Then integrate those values into your good / bad framework and live right..

Anyone that tells you different is living by someone else’s ideology … which can be dangerous and stupid.. it’s all over the Internet for good ness sake, and pretty much irrefutable.. but there will always be someone to argue it.

Spots hooter,

Do you accept an ultimate authority?

I hope I havent indicated I am either holy or righteous. If so, I would hasten to assure and dissuaded you of that erroneous conclusion.

Resorting to ad homs, as usual.


The logic is not hard to grasp.

If it is ''by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God and not by works, so that no one can boast, works are not needed, all have fallen short but are saved through grace, not works.

Yet we have "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”

The former tells us that works have no bearing on justification or salvation by Grace that faith is sufficient, yet the latter states that a person is justified by works, not faith alone, which contradicts salvation through faith and grace alone.

It can be one or the other, but both can't be true.

If we have salvation though faith and grace alone, works doesn't come into it. Yet we are told it does.

Context is a poor excuse. Context does not transform what these verses are clearly stating into something opposite.

Then again, logic is not a strong point with religion and faith.

Faith and Grace come to many by different paths, depending on their understanding of God's word and what he wishes for us... He doesn't demand of us to be a certain way , which is why he gave us the ability to choose without His interference. But I believe He meant for us to understand there would be no eternal peace just as there would be no earthly peace without humility, empathy, and love for others.

As a Catholic our mass and much of our faith is Eucharistic based as this is where the most profound of Jesus' statements was put forth in the Last Supper. As he said "do this in memory of Me" he wasn't simply referring to the sharing of bread and wine but the larger meaning of the sharing of all of our goods in humility and love for others. To be like Him in all ways- humility, helpful, forgiving, loving, and to show and share our faith in God by our example as Jesus showed us. In our faith we earn the Grace , even though we are imperfect as God sees us, He understands our frailties and imperfections but sees if we are doing our best or are we "buying our way into heaven"- or worse, have completely forsaken His word and turned away from His path.

It really isn't all that complicated to realize that we all fail and are forgiven if we simply ask in a sincere manner befitting our humility. No one knows when our time will come except God so we should be prepared and in His Grace at all times and have Faith at all times .

I once read in a Christian circular which I won't identify at the moment that there is more belief within the Christian circles that there is no heaven and no hell- that we make or own heaven or hell right here on this world by our deeds, words, and actions. It seemed pretty cynical for a religious man to say such a thing at the time- especially given the Christian upbringing I had been given... but it is one of those conundrums you can't put away- like a song somebody sings that you can't stop hearing in your head all day long... if it is true or not true, living a life like Jesus will serve you well in either case...

And yet many boast of that. It’s often seen in the religious threads.

Yes, it is often seen in those threads by certain people who we all recognize. As though they are in a place to be able to shame those that they see not doing their "good works" as they see it. But all in vain in that only God can judge in the end and one who is truly humble and knows he is a sinner realizes he has no right to judge. Putting up bible verses over and over again doesn't change this fact.

A saying that came out of the Reformation in Germany is the best way that I’ve come to understand it. God doesn’t need our works. Our neighbor does.

From what I understand of the OT and NT, the law/Ten Commandments don’t make a man holy. They can’t because even in our best attempts to keep the law we sin.


The idea of works as a end to accomplish salvation or “keep” salvation is really laughable. It isn’t possible for us to keep the law at any point in our existence.

The works that James references aren’t related to keeping the law. He is referencing reliance on Christ’s death. That is the evidence of faith which is taught as being gifted to us.


When I was a kid into my early adult life I was taught the opposite of that. But God doesn’t need our works. Our neighbor does.

Well, you do indeed seem clueless and your irrational clinging to interpretations that do not withstand scrutiny are indicative of other issues.

Your comment that “Context is a poor excuse” is simply absurd.

See Psalm 91:4 for proof that God has wings like a chicken.