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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Originally Posted by Hastings
Can any of you show the correctness of Paul's assertions of salvation by faith alone
Paul never said that.
Really? What about the abolishment of the law?


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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Tyrone
Originally Posted by Hastings
Can any of you show the correctness of Paul's assertions of salvation by faith alone
Paul never said that.
Really? What about the abolishment of the law?
The ceremonial law - no more animal sacrifices. It was replaced with the New Testament (Covenant) which requires the new sacrifice.


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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Originally Posted by Hastings
Can any of you show the correctness of Paul's assertions of salvation by faith alone
Paul never said that.
He didn't? Then who wrote Ephesians and Roman?


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by Tyrone
Originally Posted by Hastings
Can any of you show the correctness of Paul's assertions of salvation by faith alone
Paul never said that.
He didn't? Then who wrote Ephesians and Roman?
Paul.


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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
God won't judge people by their works. He'll judge them by their faith. No amount of works will save anyone. Once you're saved, THEN works come into play but not for judgement. We'll be rewarded for our works, not judged.
No less than the book Revelation said it, not me. 20:12 " And I saw the dead great and small, standing before God, and the books were opened. And another book was opened which is the one of life. And the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books according to their WORKS".

Can any of you show the correctness of Paul's assertions of salvation by faith alone and the abolishment of the law without quoting Paul? Who else endorsed the abolishment of the law and the covenant?

"Take heed that ye be not deceived"
Can the correctness Paul's assertions as stated above be verified without quoting Paul. Did Jesus or any apostle that Jesus publicly called (Paul was out in the desert) verify the covenant and the law were dead, or abolished? Explicitly abolished?


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Hastings, you know just enough to be dangerous and delusional. Christians will be judged by their works, then they will get the rewards due them based on that (Bema seat judgement), and non Christians will be judged based on their faith, or lack thereof, and sent to the lake of fire eternally (Great White Throne judgement). You do great at picking and choosing, which makes you ignorant. Sorry.

Jesus came to demonstrate what the law truly means; or that Jesus completed the law by obeying it flawlessly, therefore providing the perfect example for Christians to follow as they, too, fulfill the law of Moses. In Romans 6:2, Paul writes that we are "dead to sin," and in Romans 7:4, that we are "dead to the law." The ritual portrays these truths. The sin and trespass offerings picture a convicted sinner coming before God to receive the judgment of death. However, the animal's death portrays Christ's vicarious death in our stead, for in reality, since He is the offering, our sins have been transferred to Him. In this way, we are atoned for and redeemed.


It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Jesus Himself said the Old Covenant, the Agreement, was fulfilled. When a contract is fulfilled, it is basically void. In this case it was superseded by a new contract.


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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Jesus Himself said the Old Covenant, the Agreement, was fulfilled. When a contract is fulfilled, it is basically void. In this case it was superseded by a new contract.
Yep. Pretty simple. And crystal clear.

And, I’ll reiterate that God clearly said to Ananias that Apostle Paul was His chosen instrument to proclaim His name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the Jews.

These are not Paul’s words, these are God’s words, as recorded by Luke in Acts.

And also, Jesus clearly said that the Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John the Baptist. But since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God (the Gospel) is being preached.

These are not Paul’s words, these are Jesus’ words, as recorded by Luke in his gospel.

And, in short, the New Covenant is the gospel…!


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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Truths are demonstrable and testable, faith is neither.

Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
How are you going to demonstrate and test history?

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Not all can be repeated – we have historians doing investigations to try and determine the likelihood of the accuracy of the information. They compare with other writings and whatever other archaeological data there may be – still no guarantees though.

Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
One-off events by definition cannot be replicated and tested.

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Some can, some can’t. If they can’t then there is no reason to believe that they are true.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If it can’t then there’s no reason to believe that it’s true. The time to believe that something is true is when it has been proven to be true.

"If you can't show it, then you don't know it."

Nonsense. There's a lot that I have done, that you have done, that others have done in their lives, that can't be documented and that there aren't any eyewitnesses to. Doesn't mean those things didn't happen. They may be insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but they are real, they are truth.

It's unfortunate that you weren't around during Jesus' ministry, because apparently you only believe things you can see for yourself. After the resurrection, you probably would have been like Thomas, who said that he would not believe unless he could see and feel the nail scars in Jesus' hands. For Thomas, the extraordinary claim that Jesus was alive required extraordinary evidence, and he got it. Thomas was lucky enough to have had that experience while alive on earth, but the rest of us have to rely on his testimony as to the nail scars. I believe Thomas. I don't believe you.


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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Jesus Himself said the Old Covenant, the Agreement, was fulfilled. When a contract is fulfilled, it is basically void. In this case it was superseded by a new contract.
Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, , one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till ALL be fulfilled."

Better check your hole card, you may have mistaken a deuce for an ace.

Matthew 4:17 points to the real path to salvation when Jesus said "repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". John the Baptist said the exact same thing. And Jesus himself said John was "the greatest of them all".


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Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Truths are demonstrable and testable, faith is neither.

Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
How are you going to demonstrate and test history?

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Not all can be repeated – we have historians doing investigations to try and determine the likelihood of the accuracy of the information. They compare with other writings and whatever other archaeological data there may be – still no guarantees though.

Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
One-off events by definition cannot be replicated and tested.

Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Some can, some can’t. If they can’t then there is no reason to believe that they are true.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If it can’t then there’s no reason to believe that it’s true. The time to believe that something is true is when it has been proven to be true.

"If you can't show it, then you don't know it."

Nonsense. There's a lot that I have done, that you have done, that others have done in their lives, that can't be documented and that there aren't any eyewitnesses to. Doesn't mean those things didn't happen. They may be insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but they are real, they are truth.

It's unfortunate that you weren't around during Jesus' ministry, because apparently you only believe things you can see for yourself. After the resurrection, you probably would have been like Thomas, who said that he would not believe unless he could see and feel the nail scars in Jesus' hands. For Thomas, the extraordinary claim that Jesus was alive required extraordinary evidence, and he got it. Thomas was lucky enough to have had that experience while alive on earth, but the rest of us have to rely on his testimony as to the nail scars. I believe Thomas. I don't believe you.
Well said.


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by Raspy
Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
There is only 1 Jesus and that DOES matter. Salvation requires belief that Jesus died and rose from the dead and that he is God himself. Of all the names on that drawing, ONLY Christianity believes that. The rest are false. God gives every single person a chance to choose Jesus. We aren't told how, only that he does. If they don't repent, they're hell bound. All those other religions are keeping them from salvation, not bringing them to it.
But what about all those billions that never had the chance to even hear about Jesus? They are just shoved off into the abyss to suffer for eternity?

I do not think God will condemn people simply for being born in the wrong century on the wrong continent.....I believe God will judge all people according to their works, and according to the desire of their hearts.
God won't judge people by their works. He'll judge them by their faith. No amount of works will save anyone. Once you're saved, THEN works come into play but not for judgement. We'll be rewarded for our works, not judged.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Rock....I was responding to Hasting's question >>>what about all those billions that never had the chance to even hear about Jesus? They are just shoved off into the abyss to suffer for eternity?<<<


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In Romans 9, I believe, it says that God said to Moses “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” God's ways are not our ways, but I have to assume that God makes allowance for those who haven't received His word. There are things we know and things we don't know.


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Originally Posted by There_Ya_Go
In Romans 9, I believe, it says that God said to Moses “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” God's ways are not our ways, but I have to assume that God makes allowance for those who haven't received His word. There are things we know and things we don't know.
Understanding that is called "humility". It's a virtue.


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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Jesus Himself said the Old Covenant, the Agreement, was fulfilled. When a contract is fulfilled, it is basically void. In this case it was superseded by a new contract.
Originally Posted by Hastings
Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, , one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till ALL be fulfilled."
But “ALL” was fulfilled. It hadn’t been at the time of that statement.

Were the predictions of the Prophets concerning the Messiah fulfilled in Jesus, or not…? Was the holy standard of the Law perfectly upheld and fulfilled by Jesus, or not…? Were the strict requirements of the Law personally and perfectly obeyed, and the ceremonial observances of the Law finally and fully satisfied and fulfilled by Jesus, or not…?
Originally Posted by Hastings
Matthew 4:17 points to the real path to salvation when Jesus said "repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". John the Baptist said the exact same thing. And Jesus himself said John was "the greatest of them all".
Yep. And the kingdom of God that they spoke of was the good news of the Gospel. And the repentance that they spoke of was for people to ‘turn away’ from trusting in their own efforts or good works...like following the Law...to receive salvation; and to instead trust in Jesus to receive salvation.


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Originally Posted by Hastings
Originally Posted by Tyrone
Jesus Himself said the Old Covenant, the Agreement, was fulfilled. When a contract is fulfilled, it is basically void. In this case it was superseded by a new contract.
Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, , one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till ALL be fulfilled."

Better check your hole card, you may have mistaken a deuce for an ace.

Matthew 4:17 points to the real path to salvation when Jesus said "repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". John the Baptist said the exact same thing. And Jesus himself said John was "the greatest of them all".

The focus of the gospel of the kingdom was repentance and was taught by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the 12. The kingdom gospel was valid only from John the Baptist until the Council in 51 AD. John the Baptist preached repentance, not Christianity, to the Jews as they waited for the prophetic kingdom, Matthew 3:1-12. They believed the kingdom would be established on earth with a Jewish focus. Nothing in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is to the church. That comes later with Paul’s commission from the risen Lord.

Jesus and the 12 taught under the law and the O. T. Covenant. This is what caused the controversy at the Council of Jerusalem. After the Jews rejected and killed Jesus, there was a doctrinal shift from the gospel of the kingdom to the gospel of grace with Paul to the Gentiles, Acts 20:24. The gospel of the kingdom failed because of Jewish rejection and unbelief. Before Paul, God dealt exclusively with Israel. God revealed a new program to Paul.

From 51 AD on, Paul’s gospel of grace was taught instead of the kingdom gospel. At the Council of Jerusalem, even Peter recognized that Jews now had to be saved as Gentiles, Acts 15:6-11. Believers were then and still are under grace, not the Mosaic law.

The gospel of grace through faith was begun by Paul’s calling (by God) and is the one gospel today in which Jews and Gentiles are equal in Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Paul is to the Church what Moses was to Israel.

All who believe the gospel of grace are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. There is now no difference between Jews and Gentiles in the Church, as both are members of the Body of Christ.

Paul’s gospel is the eternal gospel, and it is the gospel by which God will judge man, Romans 2:16. Jews and Gentiles have been brought together into the Body of Christ by believing Paul’s gospel, the gospel of grace. Paul emphasized belief and faith, not repentance. Refusal to believe the gospel of grace leaves one without the Holy Spirit and without eternal life.

Understanding the 2 gospels will clear up much confusion and misunderstanding. Each gospel has to be understood in its own timeframe for understanding. The two ministries were different, but they did not contradict each other, as God is not the author of confusion, 1 Corinthians 14:33. Misunderstanding scripture, including Paul’s calling, continues to twist Biblical theology.

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Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till ----ALL---- be fulfilled. Got a news flash. Heaven and earth have not passed away. And not ALL has been fulfilled. Drop your guard and let Jesus' teaching in. The Jewish covenant has not gone anywhere. The law and the prophets still stand.

Take care that ye be not deceived.

Paul had no authority to usurp and change Jesus' teachings, and I'm in no way sure Paul wrote all that stuff. A lot of it doesn't make sense. Take Romans 13:1 through 7 for instance. Hitler and Stalin and for that matter Obama/Biden could quote that one.


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Originally Posted by Hastings
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till ----ALL---- be fulfilled. Got a news flash. Heaven and earth have not passed away. And not ALL has been fulfilled. Drop your guard and let Jesus' teaching in. The Jewish covenant has not gone anywhere. The law and the prophets still stand.
Again, “ALL” in ‘the Law’…which is specifically what this passage is referring to…WAS clearly fulfilled. Thereby negating the quantifiers in the statement. And the ‘real’ Old Covenant hasn’t been practiced since 70 AD when the destruction of the Temple…as Jesus clearly foretold…made it impossible to do so; even though some still claim to abide by pretend versions of it that are clearly tremendously cherry-picked and made-up ~ they’re clearly not the ‘real’ Old Covenant, which was an agreement between God and the ancient Israelites, and no one else…!


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That salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus alone is made crystal clear in John 3:16-18. Whether one attributes the words to Jesus (as the ESV does) or whether one attributes the words to John (as the NIV does) is irrelevant. They’re not Paul’s words, they’re either the words of Jesus or the words of John (and some would assert that if so, John spoke as he was moved by God Himself).

Regardless, it clearly says that the one believing (the word in Greek means confidence or trust) in Jesus will not perish but have everlasting life, and that the one believing in Jesus is not condemned. Period. Any claim that “someone who believes in Jesus but isn’t doing works is not saved” flatly contradicts this passage ~ which is considered to be the Gospel in a nutshell.

It goes on to say that the unbeliever is condemned already. Why is that…? It’s clearly not because he has failed to do required works ~ but “because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Seems crystal clear that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus alone.


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