Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

If sized oversize and are hard enough with a good lube or powder coated they would work well

Sir Ron I thought Rusty was in Texas! I will have to determine barrels, stock, bottom metal and sights… and find someone to screw it together. I really don’t quite understand something though… the front and rear bridge and hole spacing. Will the modern 338 action M70 need the rear bridge cut? And… do I use a standard reamer?
S.

1-12 should work fine with properly sized, + 2 thousandths cast either well lubed or painted at 1400-2000 fps in the Magnificent 458 WM. I also shoot quite a few 30-06 cast at 1-10 at same velocities and that works fine too. What Ron says is in the correct direction though, he is not intending to use his 1-10 458 for cast when he has a plethora of 1-14's that will be better for that purpose. Gentler RPM is better on cast most folks agree.

Sir Dennis, you are probably right on,
I just have not tried the hardcast in a 1:12" twist,
but I do have one such barrel on a .458/.338 Lapua Magnum.
I might give it a try later, after deer season and fall chores.

Probably would work OK in a 1:10" twist if 600-grainer used at 1100 fps.
PC-painted, gas-checked and sized to .461".
Substitute them for the preliminary workup for some of the jacketed 600-grainers and suppressor use.

Lots of mention of longer barrels but I think a rifleman needs to decide what best suits as I find the standard 22" barrel on the Model 70 makes the rifle feel maneuverable and that can be a plus in dense timber and brush hunting where fast reflexes are an asset.

Having said that, I wouldn't be against a pair of .458's with one barrel longer than 22" for ballistic sake, of course.

Speaking of 22"-barreled .458 WinMag glory, that circa 1968 pushfeed M70 .458 WM was the real star of the 1971 movie DIRTY HARRY.
It had a 22″ barrel and retained the “African” model rear sight (like on the original 25-incher)
to fake everybody out:



Counter-sniper night-op on church roof in San Francisco.
Who would have thought they would have a church in San Francisco ?
Must have been a Church of Satan.



Both Finn Aagaard and Harry Selby used the pushfeed M70 .458 WM in Africa quite a bit.

I bought a pushfeed M70 .458 WinMag with 22″ barrel in 1984, while living in Missouri, where elephant control was rarely needed.
I was at least 50 miles east of the Kansas City Zoo.
The African rear sight had been long since replaced with the XTR-type fold-down.

Wisner was making those reproduction African rear sights for use on the Weatherby DGR.
Weatherby went to a different rear sight for the later DGR Mark V rifles,
so Wisner quit churning them out.
He had gotten down to only two in stock when I called him, and said he did not know when or if there would be another run.
I bought those two.
Honestly, I prefer a fold down rear sight so as not to be in the way of peep sight use.
Sacrilege, I know.

Cut a 24" barrel to 22" and you only lose about 35 fps MV,
cut a 22" barrel to 20" and you lose another 40 fps.
And so it goes, losing a little more per inch below 20" of barrel length, for each further inch of shortening
of the .458 WM, all other factors in the rifle and ammo being constant.

So, for the latest data below, from MIB, for 20"-barreled .458 WM M70 shooting the new 400-gr brass FN #13 from CEB,
add 75 fps for 24"-barreled MV, if all other factors in rifle and ammo were constant.
Some rifles are faster than others and some might get 100 fps more in a 24" barrel than this 20-incher .458 WM:



Note how increasing the COL from 3.185" to 3.290" prevented bulging the case in compressing the 78.0-gr charge of AA-2460 powder !
With the longer COL by 0.105" the pressure dropped only 700 psi but MV (by LabRadar) went up by 2 fps :
60,800 psi and 2342 fps MV for the 3.290" COL.
There is much picking of the black pepper needed here.

Powders behave differently for sure.
All loads are to be considered as done with Winchester brass and F-215 primer unless specified otherwise.
MV by Lab radar unless specified otherwise.

Now for an eye opener, consider 80.0 grains of AA-2230, same day measurements on 11/03/2022:

COL 3.185": 57,800 psi >>> 2368 fps
COL 3.290": 61,100 psi >>> 2399 fps

Pressure and MV both increased with the 0.105" decompression of the AA-2230.
Apparently AA-2230 does not like compression.
2400 fps from a 20" barrel is perfect at 3.290" with the 400-gr FN
24" barrel would be 2475 to 2500 fps MV depending on speediness of rifle.

Make the COL 3.250" to 3.350" in the .458 WM+ with the 400-gr brass FN#13 from CEB.
Check out the TAC loads above: 80-, 82-, 84-, 86-grain loads.
COLs 3.180" to 3.290",
TAC behaves predictably.
No bulged cases when COL increased.
Pressure and velocity dropped with COL increase.
Adding enough powder back allowed increased MV and submaximal pressure for a SAAMI .458 WM load
even with compression of the TAC, no fly poop to pick out of this Blue Pepper.

84.0 gr TAC:
3.290" COL: 53,700 psi >>> 2369 fps (0 fps ES for 2 shots)

86.0 gr TAC:
3.290" COL: 58,700 psi >>> 2418 fps (7 fps ES for 2 shots)

24" MV with 400-gr brass FN #13: Even closer to 2500 fps at lower pressure !

Dang, if I didn't have 24 pounds of AA-2230 I would be stocking up on TAC.

For the even lighter bullet fans, more MIB data:





Good ol' H4198 is good enough for me with any 250-gr to 350-gr .458-caliber bullets.

I have seemed to landed on 22" lengths in 458's. I am debating on a re-bore to 458 Winchester. The present barrel is around 21-3/4". I may leave as is, or go to ~20-3/4". Which would be just behind the rear screw of the front sight on this M70 Frankenstein rifle.
I leaning towards, waiting until after the re-bore is done. Then make that decision.
Heck, I still have to decide, 1-10 or 1-12" on the rate of twist.

I tried to learn to ski on a Colorado bunny slope when I was well past 60 years old.
One bounce of my helmeted head off the hard ice of the slope and I was done.
Kids practically teach themselves to ski, and it is with them for life, bless their hearts and destroyed knees.
I still have good knees, despite a mere lateral collateral ligament sprain from side-hilling on moss-slippery rocks
while hunting pigs with a spear in Tennessee.
It healed well.
I value my knees too much to try snow skiing again.
Might do it on water ... used to be able to water ski ... I learned that as a kid.

Sir Jerry revealed the secret to .458 WinMag shooting skill in the recent ".378 WbyMag Recoil" thread: Start young.


Sir Jerry,
If you come across a spare .460 Wby I will swap a .400 Whelen for it, give you some boot.
It would be a hoot.
I was almost 30 years old when my first .460 Wby taught me how nice the .458 WinMag was.
Sorry I got rid of it now.
I would use the .460 Wby just to see if the 404-gr Shock Hammer can break 3000 fps,
a lot of fuss for an extra 500 fps,
just for a hoot.
So will add once a year on my birthday, shoot it for group with my old accuracy load of 500-grainer at 2500 fps.

LOL, will do Sir Ron, old race car bud has his eye on one of my spare new old stock Mert Littlefield 14-71 Super Charger with high-helix Kobelco rotors and a Enderle hat alcohol injector, he may wind up having to pile up all those Weatherbys, brass and dies as well as a wheelbarrow fulla gun powder to get them, he did say the big 460 has 10 brand new boxes of brass in the Weatherby Elephant boxes. ...............200 sticks ought to damn well do it all for a 460 WBY LOL!

500 grains at 2500 fps would certainly keep the icing on a birthday cake nice and melted year after year ; ]

Sir Jerry,
What a renaissance man you are !
Your race car parts would make a NASCAR champ drool.
Just guessing since it sounds like you are speaking a
foreign language to my level of understanding.
Thanks.

LOL, onewithnosenseman is what i be Sir Ron, those are alcohol drag race Hemi parts, Keith Black and TFX blocked fire breathing monsters, best run back in the day when i did that was 6.60 sec and 221 mph in the quarter mile at Tulsa............................now back to the fun, think i'm going to take the old FN Safari Browning saami spec'd 458 WM for a few walks this season, deer, one particular monster boar black bear and pigs best beware, it's old load with 500gr partitions at 2166 fps over H-335 is still a poleaxer!

Well now, that would have been a hell of a ride. Short but Way fast !!

I still admire those Browning FN Safari rifles.
I drooled and blank stared over those when I was a kid. Then in the early 90's they were fairly common around here on the used racks. Just did not have the money to spend on them at the time. I still recall a 458 Winchester that I held during those times.

I have never bought a 458 in the FN Safari. But, I did a 30-06 type in excellent condition a few years ago. The only alteration being a Decelerator pad on the butt.

The standard magazine version 458 Winchester, is a mighty fine round. The very good to great 350 & 400 grain bullets certainly add to the versatility.

Yep, FN Mauser .458 WinMag in the hands of Ron "Mahohboh" Thomson
probably culled more elephants than any other single rifle in history, about 6000.
More than any "double rifle" too, heh-heh.

For those obsessed with short barrel and light weight, here is my experience
with my two lightest and shortest rifles of equal cartridge ballistics,
6#10oz .458 B&M with 16.9" barrel and 7#10oz .458 WM with 23" barrel
reported at the B&M site,
copied here:

Assuming same scope and ammo load on the 6#10oz rifle and the 7#10oz rifle (add 1#6oz to each rifle)
and easily obtainable velocities with same powder charge and bullet:

16.9″-barreled, 8-pound field-ready rifle with 400-gr bullet at 2350 fps with 80 grains of powder: Recoil = 68.7 ft-lbs @ 23.5 fps
23″-barreled, 9-pound field ready rifle with 400-gr bullet at 2500 fps with 80 grains of powder: Recoil = 66.8 ft-lbs @ 21.8 fps

Velocity loss from my barrel shortening does not reduce recoil as much as the 1-pound reduction in weight increases recoil.
Slightly more recoil with the shorter barrel if velocity loss was 150 fps with the 6.1″ barrel shortening, observed between these two rifles,
with barrel differences:
16.9″ Pac-Nor 1:10″ twist .458 B&M+
23″ McGowen 1:14″ twist .458 WM+

Not enough difference for most insensitive brutes to perceive at shoulder.
The midget rifle will kick a little harder and need a 75-yard handicap to be on par with the longer barrel.

The average .458 WM with 24" barrel will be closer to 10 pounds scoped and topped off with ammo.
Recoil of the 10-pounder for the speedy 400-grainer versus the classic 500-grainer:

400-grainer at 2500 fps with 80 grains of powder: Recoil = 60.1 ft-lbs @ 19.66 fps

500-grainer at 2150 fps with 72 grains of powder: Recoil = 63.4 ft-lbs @ 20.2 fps

(500-gr Hornady RNSN load: 72.0 gr AA-2230, 3.305" COL, not compressed, 53,808 psi, 24" barrel, Winchester brass, F-215 primer.
The 400-gr speedy load may require .458 WM+ handloading techniques, but is easily accomplished
even from a short magazine box by single loading the standard SAAMI .458 WinMag.
No SAAMI .458 Lott need apply, please.
Recoil will be heavier with the Lott because more powder will be required to do the same MV as the .458 WinMag can do at modest pressure.)

For elephant hunting, us sissy boys would rather use a 400-gr brass FN solid at 2500 fps from a .458 WM/.458 WM+.
3.3 ft-lbs less recoil is detectable at the shoulder by us sensitive types.
That is 5.2% less recoil.
It hurts our shoulders that much less than a 500-gr bullet at 2150 fps from a SAAMI .458 WinMag.
And a .458 Lott firing a 500-grainer at 2150 fps hurts even more, boo hoo.

I venture to guess, the mere mention of the CEB #13, 325 grain brass solid would place one in the light-in-the-loafers category.

I still have 21 left of a box of 50, 330gr Barnes Banded Solids. They are solid brass or bronze. I tested a bunch of .458" bullets in Oct/2017. The test media was 15.5 inches of dry hardcovers and magazines, plus 2 wood planks. The 330gr Barnes Banded leaving the muzzle of my Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT at 2400 fps MV, hit the first box at around 2370 and penetrated the full 15.5" like the proverbial "hot knife through butter" and was lost in the background, never to be found. In comparison, a 350gr Hornady FT was stopped at 4" and lost its core, just the flattened jacket left. Its MV was 2250. A 500gr SPEER AGS was stopped at 6", losing its front core, weighing 310gr.

The hole made by the 330gr was bullet size in a straight line out the back of the second and last box. It may still be going. The FDA (?), or whomever, told Barnes they couldn't make those flat-nose brass bullets anymore... they were too dangerous.

330gr BBS = 1.025" length, meplat = .30", shank = .445", bands = .4565". They were slightly undersize.

I have an upcoming new test from the Ruger No.1H in .458 in a similar test setup at the same location as soon as the deer hunters are done - and the weather cooperates: 600gr Barnes, 550gr Woodleigh, 500gr DGX and 250gr Monoflex, and (added) the 450gr AF. (any predictions?) I predict that the 500gr DGX will out-penetrate the 600gr Barnes and 550gr Woodleigh, and probably the 450 AF.

In the test of 2017, the 480gr DGX (pre-bonding), it too sailed through that former setup, like the 330gr BBS, impacted a ledge beyond and left a perfect imprint of its nose - it too was never found!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

From all accounts that I am aware of the Barnes 330 grain was a very good bullet. Agree, too bad they are no longer available.
No bets placed. Though, I will be surprised if the 450 A-Frame does not perform well in that line up.

Sir Bob said:

"I have an upcoming new test from the Ruger No.1H in .458 in a similar test setup at the same location as soon as the deer hunters are done - and the weather cooperates: 600gr Barnes, 550gr Woodleigh, 500gr DGX and 250gr Monoflex, and (added) the 450gr AF. (any predictions?) I predict that the 500gr DGX will out-penetrate the 600gr Barnes and 550gr Woodleigh, and probably the 450 AF.

You are going to have to tell us what MV you are starting each bullet.
Is the 500-gr DGX the Bonded one ?
Should be interesting, whatever you do with those bullets.

Yes Sir, tried to find a hobby after i retired that would feed an old adrenalin rush habit i was hooked on, drag racing is not scary enough LOL, will be at the shop again in the morning, putting finishing touches on a '69 year model Chrysler 440 block, just a simple 0.030 over aluminum headed roller street build, should make 550 HP on the dyno, will be fun in the old '69 roadrunner street car with A833 4 speed.

I love the FN Safari Brownings too, i got near 2300 fps with a 500gr partition at 3.340 inch, took a drop tube and AA-2460, but it made it, that would be a hell of a saami spec all game load, that '06 sounds like a dandy.

404gr Hammers paired with a good 400gr flat nosed solid would indeed do it all, especially at 2500+ fps.