Does anyone hear believe the wound channel of a 10mm can’t kill a big bear?
Was wondering the same myself. I'm not sure full penetration by a 200-220 gr hard cast is somehow significantly different than same with a 0.429, 280 gr. In fact, I'd take the hard case 220 10mm over a 44 cal non-hard cast.
In my mind, Phil's experience seems to bear out, pun intended, that raw fire power is not the measure of effectiveness. It's holes through the animal in the right place. For me, I shoot my G20 better and faster than my heavy loaded revolvers. The only variable is penetration. I'm 100% sure a 220 hard cast from a 10mm is up to the penetration challenge. I spend considerable time with my 10mm and am pretty confident in its use and effectiveness if the need arises. Plus it has 15 accomplices if need be.
Does anyone hear believe the wound channel of a 10mm can’t kill a big bear?
What I've been thinking. Assuming hard vast is the projectile, how much is gained by .029"? The bigger hole might cut something the smaller misses, but now we are depending on .0145.
All dependent on profile.
One more round that might be fired is gonna cut a .400 hole.
All theory full of what iffs
Same as these arguments.
Write a script. I get,
Time, no contact? G20
Rolling around in the dirt being chewed on, keep my gun? Got time? 8 round 357. Only a couple shots, DA 44.
One shot only? 500 S&W
Using an example to argue as any one gun being clearly superior either shows bias or ignorance.
Be interesting to ask Phill what his thoughts might be if he ran it through his head in an after action report style.
His encounter supports enough power, good bullet in the right place(s)
The 44 guys would argue a bigger gun would have done it quicker.
The 10mm guys will argue he needed more ammo to use.
Ain't a 100% answer.
Size, weight, ease of carry, reliability in an uncontrolled situation, shootability......make your choice. Spin the wheel. Hope it never even comes up, FŰCK BEAR!!!
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
Does anyone hear believe the wound channel of a 10mm can’t kill a big bear?
Was wondering the same myself. I'm not sure full penetration by a 200-220 gr hard cast is somehow significantly different than same with a 0.429, 280 gr. In fact, I'd take the hard case 220 10mm over a 44 cal non-hard cast.
In my mind, Phil's experience seems to bear out, pun intended, that raw fire power is not the measure of effectiveness. It's holes through the animal in the right place. For me, I shoot my G20 better and faster than my heavy loaded revolvers. The only variable is penetration. I'm 100% sure a 220 hard cast from a 10mm is up to the penetration challenge. I spend considerable time with my 10mm and am pretty confident in its use and effectiveness if the need arises. Plus it has 15 accomplices if need be.
Yep. I agree. And while 16 rounds of 220 gr Buffalo Bore Hard Cast Outdoorsman load is never a bad choice in my opinion. Ive been carrying a Glock 20 with that load for YEARS. And will continue to do so when hunting in any state that has bears. It’s my go to gun when bow hunting for deer and elk in bear county. But Proper shot placement and penetration can’t be stressed enough. I believe Phil’s encounter proves that fact. And if I recall correctly, he was using the Buffalo Bore Hard Cast Outdoorsman load in his 9mn that day. I’ve never killed a charging Grizz, but between all the many, many hogs I’ve killed at the Ranch with both that same 10mm load and with Ruger Blackhawks in .44 mag and 45 colt using a 260 gr WFN LBT hard cast bullets at about 1000 FPS, they were nearly all DRT. And 90% of the time, all of those bullets exited the hog. And I couldn’t tell one bit of difference on which load and bullet killed the best. They were all just as dead as the others. 🤔
Last edited by chlinstructor; 11/05/22.
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
Does anyone hear believe the wound channel of a 10mm can’t kill a big bear?
What I've been thinking. Assuming hard vast is the projectile, how much is gained by .029"? The bigger hole might cut something the smaller misses, but now we are depending on .0145.
All dependent on profile.
One more round that might be fired is gonna cut a .400 hole.
All theory full of what iffs
Same as these arguments.
Write a script. I get,
Time, no contact? G20
Rolling around in the dirt being chewed on, keep my gun? Got time? 8 round 357. Only a couple shots, DA 44.
One shot only? 500 S&W
Using an example to argue as any one gun being clearly superior either shows bias or ignorance.
Be interesting to ask Phill what his thoughts might be if he ran it through his head in an after action report style.
His encounter supports enough power, good bullet in the right place(s)
The 44 guys would argue a bigger gun would have done it quicker.
The 10mm guys will argue he needed more ammo to use.
Ain't a 100% answer.
Size, weight, ease of carry, reliability in an uncontrolled situation, shootability......make your choice. Spin the wheel. Hope it never even comes up, FŰCK BEAR!!!
Your line of thinking on this parallels mine. I like SA revolvers but they'd be my last choice for a GTF Off Me Bear! gun. Documented bear encounters sometimes include the bear kicking your ass for awhile and in that instance, the Ruger Alaskan 44/454/480 shines. If you can shoot a heavy DA revolver well, it's going to work well enough before the ass-kicking stage to prevent it. It does not have to be loaded with a tank-killer load to be effective. I would guess .4+, 240 grains+ and 1100 fps+ would be about the ground floor. But I'm just guessing.
I don't doubt a heavy loaded 40, 10mm, 45 ACP or Super will penetrate well enough to kill a bear and and in most cases, rearrange its priorities well enough to save your ass. (Some guys got by with 9mm but for me, no thanks. Bad things happen in the margins and I'm going to keep them as small as possible.) The link to the study, posted by JWP475, supports this and I don't doubt it's veracity or think the researchers are pushing an agenda.
You have a gun, the bear don't. Shoot the damn bear instantly if contact appears imminent. I'd much rather deal with pissed off possum cops than watch them stand around shaking their heads while somebody's trying to sew mine back on.
Finally, somebody did ask Phil about the incident not long after it happened. _____
Phil you are well regarded by good friends of mine, so please don't take this wrong. I am asking from the perspective of a guy who made a short notice trip to Alaska in the spring several years ago with nothing but a 2 1/4" SP-101 (Loaded with Alaska Backpacker 200 grain LBT) and a 1911 loaded with hardball.
By what rationale do you leave a 475 at home and carry a 9mm while hiking in known grizzly country? If I'd have had time to arrange for a heavy-hitter, there's no way in hell I'd have left it. I had my wife and very pregnant daughter along and carried a slug-loaded 870 on those occasions. _____
Sarge, My family homestead is right in the middle of a National Wildlife Refuge and the incident happened a bit over 5 miles from our home. We know the area, terrain and wildlife and don't feel the need to constantly be armed -- And when we are out the terrain is difficult and carrying something as large as a 475 quickly becomes a burden. something like your SP-101 is alot more likely to be packed.
As I have pointed out to numerous folks about this incident -- if I had known I would have run into an angry bear I wouldn't have even gone. And if I had to I would have taken my 458.
Phil Shoemaker - Alaska Master Guide
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
Does anyone hear believe the wound channel of a 10mm can’t kill a big bear?
What I've been thinking. Assuming hard vast is the projectile, how much is gained by .029"? The bigger hole might cut something the smaller misses, but now we are depending on .0145.
All dependent on profile.
One more round that might be fired is gonna cut a .400 hole.
All theory full of what iffs
Same as these arguments.
Write a script. I get,
Time, no contact? G20
Rolling around in the dirt being chewed on, keep my gun? Got time? 8 round 357. Only a couple shots, DA 44.
One shot only? 500 S&W
Using an example to argue as any one gun being clearly superior either shows bias or ignorance.
Be interesting to ask Phill what his thoughts might be if he ran it through his head in an after action report style.
His encounter supports enough power, good bullet in the right place(s)
The 44 guys would argue a bigger gun would have done it quicker.
The 10mm guys will argue he needed more ammo to use.
Ain't a 100% answer.
Size, weight, ease of carry, reliability in an uncontrolled situation, shootability......make your choice. Spin the wheel. Hope it never even comes up, FŰCK BEAR!!!
Your line of thinking on this parallels mine. I like SA revolvers but they'd be my last choice for a GTF Off Me Bear! gun. Documented bear encounters sometimes include the bear kicking your ass for awhile and in that instance, the Ruger Alaskan 44/454/480 shines. If you can shoot a heavy DA revolver well, it's going to work well enough before the ass-kicking stage to prevent it. It does not have to be loaded with a tank-killer load to be effective. I would guess .4+, 240 grains+ and 1100 fps+ would be about the ground floor. But I'm just guessing.
I don't doubt a heavy loaded 40, 10mm, 45 ACP or Super will penetrate well enough to kill a bear and and in most cases, rearrange its priorities well enough to save your ass. (Some guys got by with 9mm but for me, no thanks. Bad things happen in the margins and I'm going to keep them as small as possible.) The link to the study, posted by JWP475, supports this and I don't doubt it's veracity or think the researchers are pushing an agenda.
You have a gun, the bear don't. Shoot the damn bear instantly if contact appears imminent. I'd much rather deal with pissed off possum cops than watch them stand around shaking their heads while somebody's trying to sew mine back on.
Finally, somebody did ask Phil about the incident not long after it happened. _____
Phil you are well regarded by good friends of mine, so please don't take this wrong. I am asking from the perspective of a guy who made a short notice trip to Alaska in the spring several years ago with nothing but a 2 1/4" SP-101 (Loaded with Alaska Backpacker 200 grain LBT) and a 1911 loaded with hardball.
By what rationale do you leave a 475 at home and carry a 9mm while hiking in known grizzly country? If I'd have had time to arrange for a heavy-hitter, there's no way in hell I'd have left it. I had my wife and very pregnant daughter along and carried a slug-loaded 870 on those occasions. _____
Sarge, My family homestead is right in the middle of a National Wildlife Refuge and the incident happened a bit over 5 miles from our home. We know the area, terrain and wildlife and don't feel the need to constantly be armed -- And when we are out the terrain is difficult and carrying something as large as a 475 quickly becomes a burden. something like your SP-101 is alot more likely to be packed.
As I have pointed out to numerous folks about this incident -- if I had known I would have run into an angry bear I wouldn't have even gone. And if I had to I would have taken my 458.
Phil Shoemaker - Alaska Master Guide
Good post Sarge !
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
I don’t know how to post links but if anyone wants to listen to black bear vs 10mm attack straight from the horses mouth look up Nada Grande Outdoors season 2 episode 6 called Bear necessities. Bridger Petrini’s story in his own words and voice. Pretty good story. You can forward to about the 25 min mark I think to get to the good stuff.
"I used to be a tired hunting guide, now I'm just a re-tired hunting guide"
"No eternal reward will forgive us now, for wasting the dawn" JM
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