24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
New Member
OP Offline
New Member
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
Hi all,

I finally got around to chronographing a hornet load I settled on. I am using PPU brass and 45 gr Sierra hornet bullets with 12.6 gr of Lilgun. When working up the load 12.6 gr was most accurate and I started running into sticky bolt lift before I ever reach the 13.0 gr max listed in several sources. Anyhow, at 12.6 gr of Lilgun I got an average muzzle velocity of 2993 fps out of my 22" barrel, which is about 200 fps faster than the velocity listed for the 13.0 gr max load for the 22 hornet out of a 24" barrel.

I have heard of fast barrels, but this seems too good to be true. I am guessing that my load must be way over pressure. One of my fired PPU cases will hold 13.8 gr of water. I am wondering how this compares with most hornet brass? Max loads with Lilgun are suppose to be compressed, and 12.6 grains doesn't look like it will be compressed. I am guessing I need to start chronographing at the minimum 12.0 gr and see when I get close to the 2750-2800 fps range.

Any other thoughts?

Frosty

BP-B2

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 484
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 484
According to Speer, the “average case capacity” is 15.3 grains of water, so your brass is pretty thick - accounting for the high velocity and early pressure signs. What firearm are you using? The SAAMI max pressure for the Hornet is 49,000 psi/43,000 CUP, but Hodgdon limits their max loads to well under that. Their Lil’Gun data is just 31,600 CUP. So while your load may well exceed Hodgdon’s maximum pressure, it may be under the SAAMI maximum. FWIW, Speer’s maximum load of 13.0 grains gave 2913 fps in a 24” barrel. Different brass, different barrels, different bullets, different lots of powder.




.

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,266
C
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
C
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,266
When I'm getting velocity beyond the loads listed in the manual, I back the load down. I'm also getting pressure beyond the manuals loads.

I like to shoot a couple factory loads in a new rifle to get an Idea where that barrel is going to be velocity wise.

Usually my rifles shoot factory loads a bit slower than the manual says or the ammo box says. Fine, I know what i'm dealing with.

I've had a couple rifles that loosened primer pockets and were 200fps faster than the Factory ammo box stated. Fine, I had the info I needed.
So I used "Starting" loads to get max velocity and I stopped there and the primers didn't fall out and jamb the action...

If I don't have factory ammo to get a base line, I start with starting loads and watch velocity.


"Camping places fix themselves in your mind as if you had spent long periods of your life in them.
You will remember a curve of your wagon track in the grass of the plain like the features of a friend."
Isak Dinesen
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
New Member
OP Offline
New Member
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
It's a Brno ZKW-465. I've heard some of these rifles had .223 groove diameters, so I loaded up rounds with .223 bullets as well. Only reduced the muzzle velocity to 2970 fps. Pretty much within error of the velocity of the .224 bullets. I have PPU and S&B factory ammo, so I'll have to shoot those over the chronograph next time I get to the range. Although I guess those will be loaded to CIP spec (?).

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 40,269
S
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
S
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 40,269
I don't shoot the 22 Hornet, as I just load the 223 down when I think I need the velocity the Hornet gives.

When I get more velocity than load manuals say I should get, then I let the brass tell me what to believe.

If I have a loose primer pocket in a couple of shots, that tells me all I need to know. If I see no problems then the rifle is telling me what it is good with... not some generalization out of a reload manual, which is usually controlled by lawyers and accountants, not rifle engineers...


"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC

“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez

IC-A B3

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,974
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,974
I switched from W-W and R-P Hornet brass to PPU and noted PPU was noticeably thicker/heavier and doesn't hold as much powder. Mine's a K-Hornet and I am using Lil Gun. My observation is the difference in case capacity is less than 1/2 grain between the different brands of brass.

I'm loading 14.0 - 14.3 gr Lil Gun with the 40 gr V-max. My rifle is a Ruger No. 3 with a long throat and my charge fills the case to 1/16" from the mouth and the bullet is seated way out.

13 gr Lil Gun is a pretty common Hornet load but with PPU brass, it wouldn't surprise me to need to reduce that slightly.

Last edited by JGray; 11/06/22.
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 24,772
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 24,772
What’s your OAL?

It’s possible that your load is compressed too much. My Hornet loads, fired in a falling block single-shot are at 1.190 or thereabouts IIRC. I’ve noticed in articles about the Hornet where they use a repeater, the charges are a bit lighter.

JB says that pressures from rifle loads generally go down when you seat bullets deeper (to a point, anyway) because due to the progressive rifle powders used. The Hornet is almost a straight case, and generally uses pistol powders. Looks more like a pistol round to me.

You might post this inquiry in the Gunwriters’ forum where JB will be sure to see it. He knows a lot about the Hornet!


What fresh Hell is this?
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 52,672
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 52,672
Converted a Ruger #1 to K-Hornet years ago, loaded with L’il Gun. Never exceeded 13 gr. 45 gr bullets went 3000 FPS and 40 gr cruised at 3300 FPS. No pressure signs and sub MOA accuracy.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 24,772
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 24,772
Whoopsie! Meant 1.91”.


What fresh Hell is this?
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 14,861
M
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
M
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 14,861
When Lil Gun first came out, they had no data for the K-Hornet - so I called them.
The tech I spoke to, told me there was no way to get enough of that powder into either a Hornet, or K-Hornet case - and exceed max pressure.
But, Lil Gun did not compress well.
In those rounds, Lil Gun gets more velocity with less pressure, due to a "lower and longer peak on the pressure curve".
When I later saw charts of the pressure curve, it became very clear what I was told was true.
I'd look for another cause of your problem.
Please keep us informed.


I've always been a curmudgeon - now I'm an old curmudgeon.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
IC-B B4

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,331
B
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
B
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,331
how hot is your barrel after 5 shots?


Whatever you are willing to put up with, is exactly what you will have.

When your ship comes in. ... make sure you are willing to unload it.

PAYPAL, sucks and I will never use them again. I recommend you do the same.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,439
D
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
D
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,439
I agree with what Mark said.
I’ve shot 1000s of 22h with 13.0-13.2 Lil gun and 40 grain bullets with zero issues.


NRA Patron
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 484
K
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
K
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 484
I've been loading 13.0grs of Lilgun, under various 45gr bullets, since the 90's, and shooting them from my Ruger M77 Sporter (20" barrel), using Remington, Winchester and Hornaday brass.

My Ruger gets right at 2,900fps, and I have not lost a case yet.

What Mark said.

Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
New Member
OP Offline
New Member
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
Thanks for the replies. I've been away for a while between work and deer season. And with a recent cold spell I haven't been to keen on heading to the range. I am loading my hornet rounds to 1.77" with the Sierra 45 gr, which has a pretty short, round ogive.
Haven't had any issues with loose primer pockets yet, but I am trimming my brass about every other firing. I neck size with a Lee collet die rather than full-length resizing. I've always heard that hornet brass stretches a lot but this is my only hornet, so I don't know if that is typical (?).
I typical shoot 5 shoot strings without waiting for the barrel to cool between shots. I've never noticed that it gets abnormally hot, but I'll pay more attention next time I have it out. Of course it will probably be several months before I can shoot in temperatures above 30°F.

Frosty

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,554
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,554
I'm shooting 22 Hornets with 13 grains of Lil Gun and have no problems in either a Sako or Winchester Super grade...




[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 6,492
F
Campfire Tracker
Online Content
Campfire Tracker
F
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 6,492
To quote Ross Seyfried whose advice got most of us on the Lil Gun road to hassle free success, "tenths of a grain matter in the Hornet". It's not hard to suss, reduced volume brass, full house powder charge, 45 gr bullets...back it off. It's not the rifle.


Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,500
P
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
P
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,500
i started using Hammer bullets 33gr. shock Hammer on critters at my home and they really knock critters down , i also loaded some 44 gr. Hammer hunters just to see how accurate they shot and they were very accurate in my Ruger 77 s.s. i did rechamber this rifle too a K-Hornet mainly because resizing is easier for me. Pete53


LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
CTV-TRX
Who's Online Now
737 members (10gaugemag, 10Glocks, 10ring1, 12344mag, 163bc, 77 invisible), 2,009 guests, and 1,190 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RR2/3-22



 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2023 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.068s Queries: 14 (0.005s) Memory: 0.9032 MB (Peak: 1.0305 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2023-02-04 15:20:19 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS