I did try them but I could never get the velocity I wanted out of them. I ended up using Montana Bullet Works' NOE WFN 200 grain gas checked bullet, sized .401", and heat treated and 22 bhn. Copper vs lead, length of bullet leaving room in the case, but I ran into pressure signs much earlier with the CE vs the MBW, to the tune of near 200 fps difference in my KKM 6 inch barrel.
A few years ago I conducted penetration tests using several cow elk skulls lined up that were freshly killed, still with hide, meat, brain, etc. The MBW bullet listed above using Longshot powder, out penetrated the CE 190 grn, Underwood 200 grn full metal case FN, and 200 grain Hornady XTP's in the cow skulls.
I don't see how they are "better" than hard cast lead of the same shape. But they certainly are more expensive.
There’s only one potential advantage - the ability to buy 50 and be done with it. Aren’t there large minimum orders from Missouri Bullet co and others who sell similar hard cast?
I’ll practice with JHPs of similar weight.
I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
If I ever load mine for bear defense, it will be loaded with the new Swift A-Frame 10mm bullets.
Nearly 60, and senile already?
Quite possibly. What did I miss?
Sticky, expanding bullets at mediocre velocity out of a handgun is the opposite of what you want against a bear. You want to break things, and make deep holes.
I'm sure the Swifts are great in hunting scenarios. But they'll never penetrate as deeply or as straight as a non-expanding bullet.
If I ever load mine for bear defense, it will be loaded with the new Swift A-Frame 10mm bullets.
Nearly 60, and senile already?
Quite possibly. What did I miss?
Sticky, expanding bullets at mediocre velocity out of a handgun is the opposite of what you want against a bear. You want to break things, and make deep holes.
I'm sure the Swifts are great in hunting scenarios. But they'll never penetrate as deeply or as straight as a non-expanding bullet.
The partition in these rests very far forward, so you don't get dramatic expansion, but enough to create a larger diameter permanent wound cavity. You'd obviously lose a little penetration, but I don't think it's enough to matter. I'd definitely do some testing before I adopted a load.
I don't see how they are "better" than hard cast lead of the same shape. But they certainly are more expensive.
There’s only one potential advantage - the ability to buy 50 and be done with it. Aren’t there large minimum orders from Missouri Bullet co and others who sell similar hard cast?
I’ll practice with JHPs of similar weight.
Montana Bullet Works sells 100 of the 200 grain fn-gc for $36 plus shipping. The Cutting Edge 190's are $48 plus shipping...for 50.
The extra MBW bullets came in handy to work up a load, and then I shot a bunch to ensure reliability in my G20. I ordered 200 of them.
End of the day, you have to do what you are most comfortable with.
I don't see how they are "better" than hard cast lead of the same shape. But they certainly are more expensive.
There’s only one potential advantage - the ability to buy 50 and be done with it. Aren’t there large minimum orders from Missouri Bullet co and others who sell similar hard cast?
I’ll practice with JHPs of similar weight.
Montana Bullet Works sells 100 of the 200 grain fn-gc for $36 plus shipping. The Cutting Edge 190's are $48 plus shipping...for 50.
The extra MBW bullets came in handy to work up a load, and then I shot a bunch to ensure reliability in my G20. I ordered 200 of them.
End of the day, you have to do what you are most comfortable with.
Regards, Manny
Whoa, didn’t know they’d sell 100. My last batch was in .45 cal and the little box weighed about 20 lbs 😊
I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
Lehigh extreme defender and penetrators so far are giving me the best of all worlds at this point. I suppose proof would be in a bear charge which I hope to avoid and or have my 458 win mag if it happens.
But mono bullets just keep on giving.
That said I have no issues with heavy hard cast either.
I have carried both in the 10mm daily carry gun
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
If I ever load mine for bear defense, it will be loaded with the new Swift A-Frame 10mm bullets.
Nearly 60, and senile already?
Quite possibly. What did I miss?
Sticky, expanding bullets at mediocre velocity out of a handgun is the opposite of what you want against a bear. You want to break things, and make deep holes.
I'm sure the Swifts are great in hunting scenarios. But they'll never penetrate as deeply or as straight as a non-expanding bullet.
The partition in these rests very far forward, so you don't get dramatic expansion, but enough to create a larger diameter permanent wound cavity. You'd obviously lose a little penetration, but I don't think it's enough to matter. I'd definitely do some testing before I adopted a load.
One aspect of terminal ballistics physics that a lot of people seem to miss is that it takes energy to deform a bullet. The energy spent on deforming a bullet is energy it doesn't have to destroy tissue. If the bullet doesn't deform, all the energy it has goes into destroying tissue. Bullets that resist deformation don't necessarily create smaller wound channels, either. That is a function of their fluid displacement properties.
And how many hammers would a blacksmith go through if the hammer was as deformed as the piece being hammered? How many more hammer blows would be required to shape something?
Like I said, most people don't grasp the physics of terminal ballistics. Thanks for making my point.
If I ever load mine for bear defense, it will be loaded with the new Swift A-Frame 10mm bullets.
Nearly 60, and senile already?
Quite possibly. What did I miss?
Sticky, expanding bullets at mediocre velocity out of a handgun is the opposite of what you want against a bear. You want to break things, and make deep holes.
I'm sure the Swifts are great in hunting scenarios. But they'll never penetrate as deeply or as straight as a non-expanding bullet.
I use the 200 grain 10mm a-frames and the 180 grain 357 mag a-frames.
Tell me what you've experienced, that counters the superb penetration and killing power I've witnessed from these excellent handgun bullets.
There's an interesting youtube video I can't post with this tablet, "10mm Underwood Hard Cast Vs Extreme Penetrators for Bears"
"Camping places fix themselves in your mind as if you had spent long periods of your life in them. You will remember a curve of your wagon track in the grass of the plain like the features of a friend." Isak Dinesen
I didn't make your point. You are being way too simplistic on a very dynamic event. The blacksmith hammer thing is a stretch. Both are equally hard
The Blacksmith analogy is actually good. If the Hammer deforms then it isn't moving the metal that you are hitting as it should
A non or minimal deformity bullet will maintain more speed as it penetrates through the tissue and bone
And that retained speed will be lost without doing much as it whistles past the exit hole...
And the anvil keeps the hammer from moving through the piece being worked. Huge differences IMO.
With a flat point bullet exits you've as much damage as needs to been done. I've shot a lot of game with hard flat point bullets and they kill very well
I want exits if I can get them
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I didn't make your point. You are being way too simplistic on a very dynamic event. The blacksmith hammer thing is a stretch. Both are equally hard
The Blacksmith analogy is actually good. If the Hammer deforms then it isn't moving the metal that you are hitting as it should
A non or minimal deformity bullet will maintain more speed as it penetrates through the tissue and bone
And that retained speed will be lost without doing much as it whistles past the exit hole...
And the anvil keeps the hammer from moving through the piece being worked. Huge differences IMO.
With a flat point bullet exits you've as much damage as needs to been done. I've shot a lot of game with hard flat point bullets and they kill very well
I want exits if I can get them
I insist on exits...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Using double tap hardcast 320 grain 44 mag, finishing shots through the necks of moose and caribou over the years, the wound channels were unimpressive. The animals just look at you, confused what all the noise is about and continue to suffer. The controlled expansion of a swift a-frame handgun bullet, really big bulls tense up, then die immediately. The Swifts make it all the way to the offside hide.
As a musher, my biggest threat are pissed off winter moose. I can't use hard cast for fear of an exited bullet killing my dog on the offside of the moose. When a moose comes to stomp, they get tangled right into the gang lines and tug lines.
24hourcampfire....... Where alaskans are schooled everyday, about what they should use in their own backyard.
Using double tap hardcast 320 grain 44 mag, finishing shots through the necks of moose and caribou over the years, the wound channels were unimpressive. The animals just look at you, confused what all the noise is about and continue to suffer. The controlled expansion of a swift a-frame handgun bullet, really big bulls tense up, then die immediately. The Swifts make it all the way to the offside hide.
As a musher, my biggest threat are pissed off winter moose. I can't use hard cast for fear of an exited bullet killing my dog on the offside of the moose. When a moose comes to stomp, they get tangled right into the gang lines and tug lines.
24hourcampfire....... Where alaskans are schooled everyday, about what they should use in their own backyard.
I've shot Alaskan moose and grizzly bear with LBT LFN flat point hards casts with immediate results. I've also taken Bison that weighed a ton with one shot and the results were immediate.
I've killed too much game with them with excellent results to know that they are effective if the correct bullet and hardness are used.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
If I ever load mine for bear defense, it will be loaded with the new Swift A-Frame 10mm bullets.
Nearly 60, and senile already?
Quite possibly. What did I miss?
Sticky, expanding bullets at mediocre velocity out of a handgun is the opposite of what you want against a bear. You want to break things, and make deep holes.
I'm sure the Swifts are great in hunting scenarios. But they'll never penetrate as deeply or as straight as a non-expanding bullet.
The partition in these rests very far forward, so you don't get dramatic expansion, but enough to create a larger diameter permanent wound cavity. You'd obviously lose a little penetration, but I don't think it's enough to matter. I'd definitely do some testing before I adopted a load.
One aspect of terminal ballistics physics that a lot of people seem to miss is that it takes energy to deform a bullet. The energy spent on deforming a bullet is energy it doesn't have to destroy tissue. If the bullet doesn't deform, all the energy it has goes into destroying tissue. Bullets that resist deformation don't necessarily create smaller wound channels, either. That is a function of their fluid displacement properties.
Are you 100% certain that a 200 grain 10mm hard cast bullet will create a significantly larger crush cavity in vital tissue than a 200 grain 10mm Swift A-Frame? If so, how did you gain knowledge of the Swift's crush cavity?
I recall JJ Hack relaying his experiences with handguns and bears. He obviously has as much experience working with and around with bears as likely anyone here, black bears for the most part. He said that almost without fail the reaction of a bear that was shot with a hollow point from a handgun caused the bear to stop and “bite” at the wound where as a bear shot with a heavy hardcast didn’t react despite the bullet getting into the vitals. The hollow point would cause the bear to slow the down and bite at the entrance wound thereby “distracting” it long enough for more accurate hits. He relayed that he did NOT get the same reaction when the bear was shot with hard cast and usually the bear didn’t even react and definitely didn’t slow down or stop to turn and bite whatever was biting him.
Anecdotal information I know but it’s informed by his years of real world experience.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
I recall JJ Hack relaying his experiences with handguns and bears. He obviously has as much experience working with and around with bears as likely anyone here, black bears for the most part. He said that almost without fail the reaction of a bear that was shot with a hollow point from a handgun caused the bear to stop and “bite” at the wound where as a bear shot with a heavy hardcast didn’t react despite the bullet getting into the vitals. The hollow point would cause the bear to slow the down and bite at the entrance wound thereby “distracting” it long enough for more accurate hits. He relayed that he did NOT get the same reaction when the bear was shot with hard cast and usually the bear didn’t even react and definitely didn’t slow down or stop to turn and bite whatever was biting him.
Anecdotal information I know but it’s informed by his years of real world experience.
Hard cast bullets and jacketed bullets have to be adequate for the task
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
If I ever load mine for bear defense, it will be loaded with the new Swift A-Frame 10mm bullets.
Nearly 60, and senile already?
Quite possibly. What did I miss?
Sticky, expanding bullets at mediocre velocity out of a handgun is the opposite of what you want against a bear. You want to break things, and make deep holes.
I'm sure the Swifts are great in hunting scenarios. But they'll never penetrate as deeply or as straight as a non-expanding bullet.
I use the 200 grain 10mm a-frames and the 180 grain 357 mag a-frames.
Tell me what you've experienced, that counters the superb penetration and killing power I've witnessed from these excellent handgun bullets.
What kind of dumbfuuck asks a question like that?
"Killing power".....from a handgun producing maybe 1200fps.
I just don't speak your kind of stupid. Sorry. I speak physics.
Hard cast bullets and jacketed bullets have to be adequate for the task
Obviously but with all things being equal his experience was that first round hits with HP caused the bear to slow down or stop completely to bite at the wound. When the same thing happened and hard cast was used the bear didn’t react to the hit like they did with the hollow points. If time is of the essence and one type of ammo buys me more time then I would venture to say that THAT is the bullet most “adequate for the task”.
Both bullets were “adequate for the task” but the reaction from the bear was the point. 👍
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
If I ever load mine for bear defense, it will be loaded with the new Swift A-Frame 10mm bullets.
Nearly 60, and senile already?
Quite possibly. What did I miss?
Sticky, expanding bullets at mediocre velocity out of a handgun is the opposite of what you want against a bear. You want to break things, and make deep holes.
I'm sure the Swifts are great in hunting scenarios. But they'll never penetrate as deeply or as straight as a non-expanding bullet.
The partition in these rests very far forward, so you don't get dramatic expansion, but enough to create a larger diameter permanent wound cavity. You'd obviously lose a little penetration, but I don't think it's enough to matter. I'd definitely do some testing before I adopted a load.
One aspect of terminal ballistics physics that a lot of people seem to miss is that it takes energy to deform a bullet. The energy spent on deforming a bullet is energy it doesn't have to destroy tissue. If the bullet doesn't deform, all the energy it has goes into destroying tissue. Bullets that resist deformation don't necessarily create smaller wound channels, either. That is a function of their fluid displacement properties.
Are you 100% certain that a 200 grain 10mm hard cast bullet will create a significantly larger crush cavity in vital tissue than a 200 grain 10mm Swift A-Frame? If so, how did you gain knowledge of the Swift's crush cavity?
Crush cavity? Tissue damage? We're talking bear defense. If the discussion turns to crushed flesh and tissue damage, it'll be yours.
We're talking handgun bullets, here. You better hope the hole is LONG enough to break some shiit down. If you're hoping for a quick bleed-out, again, it'll be yours.
Are you 100% certain that a 200 grain 10mm hard cast bullet will create a significantly larger crush cavity in vital tissue than a 200 grain 10mm Swift A-Frame? If so, how did you gain knowledge of the Swift's crush cavity?
Crush cavity? Tissue damage? We're talking bear defense. If the discussion turns to crushed flesh and tissue damage, it'll be yours.
We're talking handgun bullets, here. You better hope the hole is LONG enough to break some shiit down. If you're hoping for a quick bleed-out, again, it'll be yours.
That looks like a non answer to me. But it could be my senility keeping me from finding it.
Years ago when I had my shop I had a lot of guys that were regular regulars. 😂. I got to know many guys and hunt with a few as well but mostly I got a lot of post hunt reports and pictures of their success or lack there of. One guy in particular bought a lot from us through the years and was a decent guy. He hunted the same spot for decades for bear high in the Methow/Okanogan area and he’d taken some beautiful bear over the years there. He told me that he carried his Sig .40 with FMJ “for penetration”. I told him that most target ammo is pretty anemic and I’d be wanting something with more power but he wasn’t concerned. A week or so later he came into the shop with pictures of the bear he’d killed. He told me that he’d dropped it with a 200 yard shot from his 7mag but when he got up to it he was still alive. He used his Sig to finish it but he said that after 6 rounds of FMJ it wasn’t fazed so he shot it with his rifle at the base of the skull which did it. Upon skinning the bear all 6 FMJ’s were in the fat on the offside of the hide. All 6 .40s/w rounds never made it into the thoracic cavity, never hit anything vital and didn’t penetrate adequately. I saw the pictures or I wouldn’t believe it myself.
On the other side of the spectrum I’ve used some of the lightweight extremely fast “boutique” loadings and I’ve been extremely impressed with their performance. A good friend of mine killed a predatory black bear that was stalking him and harassing him for hours while he was steelhead fishing on the Skykomish river one day. He had been playing cat and mouse with this bad bear trying to get back to the truck but the bear had cut him off. Finally after hours of this the bear was making its move and my buddy was convinced that this was the culmination of the stalk that bear was engaged in. My buddy had his pistol out and was as ready as he’d ever be as the bear started towards him in charge mode…my buddy said he fired one shot and was stunned when the bear literally folded mid stride. He put 2 or 3 more into him but he was dead. He was using his Glock 23 and RBCD lightweight high speed ammo. None of his shots hit the bear in the head or CNS. His first shot best he can figure hit the bear in the chest and destroyed the heart that was what stopped that charge. He reported it and waited for WDFW to show up. The game warden couldn’t believe that the ammo could be that effective but he was so impressed/curious about it that a week or 2 after that incident he came into my shop and bought some of the same ammunition that my buddy used since we were the only distributor of that ammo line on the West Coast.
I’ve used some of the lightweight high speed RBCD ammo on vermin like raccoons and the wound is incredible. One raccoon I shot with a 90gr .45acp in my Glock 21. I hit it just behind the front left shoulder when I got up to it the right side of the body was gone….it quite literally blew it in half. It’s the ammo I use to make a small gun into a big gun. It makes a .38spcl or .380acp into a seriously defensive weapon that punches far above its weight. The .380acp will penetrate 1/2” thick AR500 plates. The RBCD ammo would easily penetrate AR500 plates that would stop everything else. The only round other than RBCD that penetrated the AR500 plates was the 7.62x51 AP with the steel penetrator but it was a tiny hole and had no lethality after penetrating the plate where the RBCD 7.62 hole was about twice the caliber size and penetrated a 2x4 behind it.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
A handgun is underpowered for Brown bear protection.
Since we don’t have 500 nitro expresses on us all the time, we carry handguns.
We need the most penetration as possible, since a handgun doesn’t reliably penetrate deep enough in all conditions.
Any energy expended doing anything other than pushing the bullet forward is wasted.
Defending against a Brown bear charge is different than hunting. It will be done at extremely short distance, and a heart shot, or lung shot isn’t quick enough. The bear may die in the next few seconds or minutes, but you’ll be fuqed up too. The bear needs nerves shot, which are protected by bones.
Heavy, non expanding bullets will always be the best bet with a handgun for bear defense, since they will penetrate furthest.
Intellectual honesty is the most important character trait in human beings.
Hard cast bullets and jacketed bullets have to be adequate for the task
Obviously but with all things being equal his experience was that first round hits with HP caused the bear to slow down or stop completely to bite at the wound. When the same thing happened and hard cast was used the bear didn’t react to the hit like they did with the hollow points. If time is of the essence and one type of ammo buys me more time then I would venture to say that THAT is the bullet most “adequate for the task”.
Both bullets were “adequate for the task” but the reaction from the bear was the point. 👍
Phil Shoemaker shot and killed a 900 pound Brown bear that charged him and his fishing clients with the Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman load 147 grain 9mm flat point hard cast. The bear bit at every entrance hole.
I've shot grizzly with hard cast and if the correct bullet is used the effects are immediate
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Years ago when I had my shop I had a lot of guys that were regular regulars. 😂. I got to know many guys and hunt with a few as well but mostly I got a lot of post hunt reports and pictures of their success or lack there of. One guy in particular bought a lot from us through the years and was a decent guy. He hunted the same spot for decades for bear high in the Methow/Okanogan area and he’d taken some beautiful bear over the years there. He told me that he carried his Sig .40 with FMJ “for penetration”. I told him that most target ammo is pretty anemic and I’d be wanting something with more power but he wasn’t concerned. A week or so later he came into the shop with pictures of the bear he’d killed. He told me that he’d dropped it with a 200 yard shot from his 7mag but when he got up to it he was still alive. He used his Sig to finish it but he said that after 6 rounds of FMJ it wasn’t fazed so he shot it with his rifle at the base of the skull which did it. Upon skinning the bear all 6 FMJ’s were in the fat on the offside of the hide. All 6 .40s/w rounds never made it into the thoracic cavity, never hit anything vital and didn’t penetrate adequately. I saw the pictures or I wouldn’t believe it myself.
On the other side of the spectrum I’ve used some of the lightweight extremely fast “boutique” loadings and I’ve been extremely impressed with their performance. A good friend of mine killed a predatory black bear that was stalking him and harassing him for hours while he was steelhead fishing on the Skykomish river one day. He had been playing cat and mouse with this bad bear trying to get back to the truck but the bear had cut him off. Finally after hours of this the bear was making its move and my buddy was convinced that this was the culmination of the stalk that bear was engaged in. My buddy had his pistol out and was as ready as he’d ever be as the bear started towards him in charge mode…my buddy said he fired one shot and was stunned when the bear literally folded mid stride. He put 2 or 3 more into him but he was dead. He was using his Glock 23 and RBCD lightweight high speed ammo. None of his shots hit the bear in the head or CNS. His first shot best he can figure hit the bear in the chest and destroyed the heart that was what stopped that charge. He reported it and waited for WDFW to show up. The game warden couldn’t believe that the ammo could be that effective but he was so impressed/curious about it that a week or 2 after that incident he came into my shop and bought some of the same ammunition that my buddy used since we were the only distributor of that ammo line on the West Coast.
I’ve used some of the lightweight high speed RBCD ammo on vermin like raccoons and the wound is incredible. One raccoon I shot with a 90gr .45acp in my Glock 21. I hit it just behind the front left shoulder when I got up to it the right side of the body was gone….it quite literally blew it in half. It’s the ammo I use to make a small gun into a big gun. It makes a .38spcl or .380acp into a seriously defensive weapon that punches far above its weight. The .380acp will penetrate 1/2” thick AR500 plates. The RBCD ammo would easily penetrate AR500 plates that would stop everything else. The only round other than RBCD that penetrated the AR500 plates was the 7.62x51 AP with the steel penetrator but it was a tiny hole and had no lethality after penetrating the plate where the RBCD 7.62 hole was about twice the caliber size and penetrated a 2x4 behind it.
Sorry bub, but your bullets get the crappy review that I expected:
I’m not super experienced when it comes to bear defense. I’ve scared bears off before , but that’s it. I have talked to a few guys who have first hand experience, and also have read more than a few field reports.
One man, who I trust implicitly, said he shot a brown bear, freshly wet out of the water with a 12 Ga magnum brenneke slug, and it didn’t penetrate the wet fur. Since then he carries a 16” 458 WinMag rather than a pistol.
Take that FWIW
Intellectual honesty is the most important character trait in human beings.
Really hope NOT to have first hand experience stopping frisky bears with a handgun. I’d be very grateful for entrance holes in charging bears; exit holes would be heavy 😊Thanks for the input!
I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
I’m not super experienced when it comes to bear defense. I’ve scared bears off before , but that’s it. I have talked to a few guys who have first hand experience, and also have read more than a few field reports.
One man, who I trust implicitly, said he shot a brown bear, freshly wet out of the water with a 12 Ga magnum brenneke slug, and it didn’t penetrate the wet fur. Since then he carries a 16” 458 WinMag rather than a pistol.
Take that FWIW
Member klikitarik has told a story of a brenneke failure-to-kill on a young brownie.
Put that into perspective of the fans of the buck-slug-buck, etc method.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
Iron, I've chatted with you about this before but to back up klik:
I helped a fella track a massive bull moose shot in the neck with a Brennke black magic slug. Moose was knocked down, and got right back up. Blood trail dried up in about 30 mins of tracking. About 45 mins later, finally caught up to the bull. He was bedded down and still got up!
Once downed, I measured the distance from behind the ear:
That brenneke hit four fingers width below the ear and I have skinny Indian fingers!
Many of them heavyweight hardcast jam in pistol vartridge lever actions as well, therye loaded too long and too blunt in the nose. I had both a model 92 45 colt and a marlin 1894 44 mag that would fail to feed some of these douche-bullets.
In 10 mm, I've seen these blunt hardcast turn multiple semi-autos into jammomatics
If a fella hasn't seen piss-poor field performance from a hardcast bullet, then I guess some of us who have must be crazy......
If a fella hasn't seen piss-poor field performance from a hardcast bullet, then I guess some of us who have must be crazy......
I'm not saying that the hardcast bullet that you used failed, because some do fail. But the correct hardcast will work very, very well.
Hardcast aren't all equal in performance just as all jacketed bullets aren't equal.
I've had hardcasts failures because they wouldn't penetrate straight because of nose shape. But with the correct hard cast you will excellent results, that is why test media is a vital tool. If the bullet tracks straight and penetrates straight then if is worth trying in the field.
Actual results on game is all that truly matters
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
1)Reliabilty of function for a defense pistol. Doesn't matter if its for defense against humans or against bears, if you need it, it better be reliable. That is why I mentioned buying a lot of bullets and ensuring reliability in a semi auto platform.
2)All bullets are not equal, especially cast which uses different alloys, different shapes, hardness, brittleness, etc. The exact same bullet but cast at a different alloy can mean the difference in effectiveness. Ive seen brands of commercial cast bullets come apart and fragment because they were too brittle. Some brands are known for being cast with the right alloys at the right hardness, and with many uses in the field, are known to reliably penetrate heavy bone. Do your research and ensure you are picking a company known for casting bullets that are effective. That is a plus of the solid copper bullet, I haven't experienced them fragmenting when hitting heavy bone.
Same goes with jacketed bullets. Some that should be effective at first glance are not. When I did my testing on cow elk skulls, I tested a boutique 200 grain flat nose full metal jacket bullet, marketed as a defensive round in the woods against some dangerous game. This bullet had an extremely thin brittle jacket, and the lead alloy core was also very brittle, resulting in the bullet coming apart in the first skull.
1)Reliabilty of function for a defense pistol. Doesn't matter if its for defense against humans or against bears, if you need it, it better be reliable. That is why I mentioned buying a lot of bullets and ensuring reliability in a semi auto platform.
2)All bullets are not equal, especially cast which uses different alloys, different shapes, hardness, brittleness, etc. The exact same bullet but cast at a different alloy can mean the difference in effectiveness. Ive seen brands of commercial cast bullets come apart and fragment because they were too brittle. Some brands are known for being cast with the right alloys at the right hardness, and with many uses in the field, are known to reliably penetrate heavy bone. Do your research and ensure you are picking a company known for casting bullets that are effective. That is a plus of the solid copper bullet, I haven't experienced them fragmenting when hitting heavy bone.
Same goes with jacketed bullets. Some that should be effective at first glance are not. When I did my testing on cow elk skulls, I tested a boutique 200 grain flat nose full metal jacket bullet, marketed as a defensive round in the woods against some dangerous game. This bullet had an extremely thin brittle jacket, and the lead alloy core was also very brittle, resulting in the bullet coming apart in the first skull.
Regards, Manny
Spot on 💯%
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
IMO, most commercial lead bullet companies make their stuff too hard. Maybe because they want them looking good after they’re shipped (no dings as they get banged around and bounce off each other in the box). I’ve seen advertised BHN of 22, which is basically 100% linotype. That’s too brittle. I cast my own, where I alloy it to 15-18 BHN for a blend of toughness.
For any new bullet shape, of course it makes sense to test for reliability. I have a model 92 which shoots 335 gr 45 Colt loads perfectly, with a pretty wide meplat mould. I also have a G20 10mm that shoots 205gr truncated cone loads reliably as well- where commercial “bear ammo” was unreliable and inaccurate (which I believe was due to bullet shape and hardness).
Intellectual honesty is the most important character trait in human beings.
I recall JJ Hack relaying his experiences with handguns and bears. He obviously has as much experience working with and around with bears as likely anyone here, black bears for the most part. He said that almost without fail the reaction of a bear that was shot with a hollow point from a handgun caused the bear to stop and “bite” at the wound where as a bear shot with a heavy hardcast didn’t react despite the bullet getting into the vitals. The hollow point would cause the bear to slow the down and bite at the entrance wound thereby “distracting” it long enough for more accurate hits. He relayed that he did NOT get the same reaction when the bear was shot with hard cast and usually the bear didn’t even react and definitely didn’t slow down or stop to turn and bite whatever was biting him.
Anecdotal information I know but it’s informed by his years of real world experience.
There would be a difference between hunting and stopping for sure IMHO. Hard cast for stopping. JHP for hunting in the RIGHT bullet. But now that I"ve shot a lot of deer and pigs with the Lehigh penetrators and defense solids I'm impressed on the killing ability. Yet to be seen on total penetration on something like a bear or moose trying to stop in a bad situation, but they at least won't loose weight and kill better on a broadside shot than any hard cast bullet I've ever used before. By far.
And as Mainer points out feeding can be an issue but I'd think anyone carrying a handgun for serious work or defense had really tested them out. I know buffalo bore 10mm in our Glocks works just fine. Had some issues with another round in a 460 rowland and ends up the springs on the followers were key, new springs and function was fine. I was kind of amazed at that... but is what it is.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Buffalo Bore heavy 10mm 180gr hollow point ammo isn't bear ammo. I shot a cow 3 times in the side of the head - neck and one time between the eyes and never knocked her off her feet. After that ordeal I rotate the 220gr hard cast ammo as every other round in my magazine. If I hadn't seen it I'd never would of believed it.
Buffalo Bore heavy 10mm 180gr hollow point ammo isn't bear ammo. I shot a cow 3 times in the side of the head - neck and one time between the eyes and never knocked her off her feet. After that ordeal I rotate the 220gr hard cast ammo as every other round in my magazine. If I hadn't seen it I'd never would of believed it.
As in beef cow or elk? No bueno.
I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
Really hope NOT to have first hand experience stopping frisky bears with a handgun. I’d be very grateful for entrance holes in charging bears; exit holes would be heavy 😊Thanks for the input!
Originally Posted by Talus_in_Arizona
Really hope NOT to have first hand experience stopping frisky bears with a handgun. I’d be very grateful for entrance holes in charging bears; exit holes would be heavy 😊Thanks for the input!
Dumb autocorrect! Exit holes would be GRAVY!
I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
Buffalo Bore heavy 10mm 180gr hollow point ammo isn't bear ammo. I shot a cow 3 times in the side of the head - neck and one time between the eyes and never knocked her off her feet. After that ordeal I rotate the 220gr hard cast ammo as every other round in my magazine. If I hadn't seen it I'd never would of believed it.
I highlighted the problem. Why do you alternate ineffective ammo in with [bleep] that works?
Buffalo Bore heavy 10mm 180gr hollow point ammo isn't bear ammo. I shot a cow 3 times in the side of the head - neck and one time between the eyes and never knocked her off her feet. After that ordeal I rotate the 220gr hard cast ammo as every other round in my magazine. If I hadn't seen it I'd never would of believed it.
I highlighted the problem. Why do you alternate ineffective ammo in with [bleep] that works?
Buffalo Bore heavy 10mm 180gr hollow point ammo isn't bear ammo. I shot a cow 3 times in the side of the head - neck and one time between the eyes and never knocked her off her feet. After that ordeal I rotate the 220gr hard cast ammo as every other round in my magazine. If I hadn't seen it I'd never would of believed it.
I highlighted the problem. Why do you alternate ineffective ammo in with [bleep] that works?
LOL. Need any extra buck I might could find some. Last thing I
Originally Posted by TrueGrit
Buffalo Bore heavy 10mm 180gr hollow point ammo isn't bear ammo. I shot a cow 3 times in the side of the head - neck and one time between the eyes and never knocked her off her feet. After that ordeal I rotate the 220gr hard cast ammo as every other round in my magazine. If I hadn't seen it I'd never would of believed it.
Actually it sure can be. Depends the bear and what you are doing. 180 xtps and 200 xtps kill very well with lung shots. VERY well.
There is a big difference in uses. Stopping vs hunting.
For me, stopping decent bears is where I carry no handgun and a large rifle. No shotguns. No handguns. OTOH when its only a slight chance handguns are handy. Ammo choice is always an issue even then. Am I hunting. Or am I responsible to stop a bear or moose etc... to save me or clients. Different situations. Different needs weapon and ammo wise.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
