Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Why No Love For The S&W .40?

I can't believe how much back and forth exists among self-proclaimed gun nuts when it comes to chamberings.

The evolution of the .40 S&W is very well documented and far from ancient history. The infamous Miami Shootout lead America's premiere law enforcement agency to pursue the optimal law enforcement cartridge. A lot of people recognize that, that pursuit ended with the 10mm. But they fail to recognize that, that pursuit was lead by the recognized "experts" in handgunning at the time and were furthered by people that fully accepted those "experts" were the be-all, end-all, in pistolering. Hindsight being 20/20 (if you're inclined to look at these things objectively) will quickly reveal none of those people were experts in anything. Except themselves.

The 10mm that was propositioned to be the cure-all for all things law enforcement was not a new concept. The same ballistics and performance were achievable via the 38-40 for a long, long, time. But some loud mouth know-it-all's found a way to get it into a rimless case and a gun that was (until being adopted by the FBI) viewed as a ginormous piece of fugking schit. Because it was.

But this pursuit of ballistic nirvana was seized by a number of salesmen. Not the least of which were the disciples of a guy named Jeff "Scout Rifle" Cooper. They convinced the FBI that bigger was better and the FBI took this info hook, line, and sinker. Development of a pistol that wasn't a complete piece of fugking schit became a priority for the FBI and that meant it was a priority for the premiere firearm's manufacturer (for LEOs) in the country. The result was a massive framed pistol that could handle the true ballistics of the 10mm. Please note the italicized text. It was made to handle the true ballistics of the 10mm, at that time.

It doesn't take somebody as genius as Jeff Cooper and his disciples to figure out that there is no way in fugking Christ a bunch of FBI agents were going to be able to wield this cartridge/handgun combo effectively. Matter of fact, you'd need to do some very creative comic book writing to find a pack of mother fugkers that could wield that combo effectively. It was a stupid idea then, and it would be a stupid idea today. But what did that stupid idea bring the LEO community to?

You guessed it. A slightly less stupid idea. Because egos and lack of data weren't going to make a buncha know-nothings announce to the world that their idea was fugking stupid.

Enter the .40 S&W....

Now consider what the .40 S&W truly is. It's the solution proposed by cultists, gun manufacturers and ammo manufacturers to collaborate on an idea that they had already sold but watched fail. The solution was to take the buck & snort of the 10mm, out of the 10mm, and squeeze into a pistol frame that was never designed to handle the buck & snort of a watered down 10mm. Great idea, right?

Wrong.

But the biggest factor in all of these happenings really needs to be viewed through the window of pre-internet. This was a time when anybody anywhere could claim expertise in all sorts of fields and be taken seriously. Nobody was out there to call them on their bullschit. This was the era of Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayboob, and Frank Dux. Nobody really knew better and those that did had no voice to debate absurd concepts. I mean after all, Guns & Ammo only had so many openings and they sure as fugk weren't going to give them to anyone that said the accepted form of gun Bibles were full of fugking schit.

But the brakes were ultimately pumped on this steady stream of bullschit and this was largely (OK, completely) due to the wide stream use of the internet. So much information was being pumped into the real world that it made the real world take a step back and question a lot of previously accepted nonsense. Not to mention the United States had (kinda still is) been at war since 2001. When in the history of man have you seen this quantity of certified and stamped combat vets coming back and being able to disseminate their real world experiences in the capacity that they can today? The answer is never.

All of this lead to the questioning of a lot of things. Some really good questions like:

-How fast can you accurately shoot a 9mm, versus a .40?
-Why do you think less ammo is an advantage?
-Who has compiled real world information regarding terminal effect of respective chamberings?
-Why are we using light for caliber in the 9mm, and heavy for caliber in the .40?
-Why are we using light for caliber in the 9mm, and heavy for caliber in the .45?
-What is the service life (this means reliability for all you that don't habla) for a sidearm chambered for a watered down 10mm, that was built to withstand a 9mm?
-If adequate lethality is acceptable for long arms used in combat, why is the same not pursued for sidearms?
-Who the fugk is Jeff Cooper?

The end result of these questions being asked, and answered, is that there is no real reason for most law enforcement entities to deviate from a properly loaded 9mm. That doesn't mean the .40 S&W isn't a great idea, because it is. Matter of fact, it's probably the most overlooked and underrated sporting cartridge out there. Whether you're considering handguns, rifles, or shotguns. It takes one of the greatest people shooting cartridges ever devised (the 38-40) and consolidates it into a pistol that's the size of a Glock 17 and has 15 +1 capacity.

That's a pretty incredible round and should always be recognized for its benefits. But if you think those benefits outshine a 9mm when discussed in the context of law enforcement or military applications, you're high on fugking bat schit and have much to learn regarding all things sidearms. Not only in their use, but their history.



You're welcome,
Flave

Remember the 357 Sig?

Whew, baby, that was gonna be a serious contender for making bad guys ‘DRT’

Had one of them for a short while. Ammo was expensive.

In many ways a perfect grip wouldn’t include any thumbs.

I'd be happy with .45's and 9's. But I have a couple boxes of .40 so I'm happy with it too.

I've shot a lot of different .40s from a lot of different makers. I thought the CZ 75 was the perfect platform for it, till I bought my M&P. I may buy a 2nd to try out the red dot thingies that Clarke is always ranting about.

I can't believe how much back and forth exists among self-proclaimed gun nuts when it comes to chamberings.

The evolution of the .40 S&W is very well documented and far from ancient history. The infamous Miami Shootout lead America's premiere law enforcement agency to pursue the optimal law enforcement cartridge. A lot of people recognize that, that pursuit ended with the 10mm. But they fail to recognize that, that pursuit was lead by the recognized "experts" in handgunning at the time and were furthered by people that fully accepted those "experts" were the be-all, end-all, in pistolering. Hindsight being 20/20 (if you're inclined to look at these things objectively) will quickly reveal none of those people were experts in anything. Except themselves.

The 10mm that was propositioned to be the cure-all for all things law enforcement was not a new concept. The same ballistics and performance were achievable via the 38-40 for a long, long, time. But some loud mouth know-it-all's found a way to get it into a rimless case and a gun that was (until being adopted by the FBI) viewed as a ginormous piece of fugking schit. Because it was.

But this pursuit of ballistic nirvana was seized by a number of salesmen. Not the least of which were the disciples of a guy named Jeff "Scout Rifle" Cooper. They convinced the FBI that bigger was better and the FBI took this info hook, line, and sinker. Development of a pistol that wasn't a complete piece of fugking schit became a priority for the FBI and that meant it was a priority for the premiere firearm's manufacturer (for LEOs) in the country. The result was a massive framed pistol that could handle the true ballistics of the 10mm. Please note the italicized text. It was made to handle the true ballistics of the 10mm, at that time.

It doesn't take somebody as genius as Jeff Cooper and his disciples to figure out that there is no way in fugking Christ a bunch of FBI agents were going to be able to wield this cartridge/handgun combo effectively. Matter of fact, you'd need to do some very creative comic book writing to find a pack of mother fugkers that could wield that combo effectively. It was a stupid idea then, and it would be a stupid idea today. But what did that stupid idea bring the LEO community to?

You guessed it. A slightly less stupid idea. Because egos and lack of data weren't going to make a buncha know-nothings announce to the world that their idea was fugking stupid.

Enter the .40 S&W....

Now consider what the .40 S&W truly is. It's the solution proposed by cultists, gun manufacturers and ammo manufacturers to collaborate on an idea that they had already sold but watched fail. The solution was to take the buck & snort of the 10mm, out of the 10mm, and squeeze into a pistol frame that was never designed to handle the buck & snort of a watered down 10mm. Great idea, right?

Wrong.

But the biggest factor in all of these happenings really needs to be viewed through the window of pre-internet. This was a time when anybody anywhere could claim expertise in all sorts of fields and be taken seriously. Nobody was out there to call them on their bullschit. This was the era of Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayboob, and Frank Dux. Nobody really knew better and those that did had no voice to debate absurd concepts. I mean after all, Guns & Ammo only had so many openings and they sure as fugk weren't going to give them to anyone that said the accepted form of gun Bibles were full of fugking schit.

But the brakes were ultimately pumped on this steady stream of bullschit and this was largely (OK, completely) due to the wide stream use of the internet. So much information was being pumped into the real world that it made the real world take a step back and question a lot of previously accepted nonsense. Not to mention the United States had (kinda still is) been at war since 2001. When in the history of man have you seen this quantity of certified and stamped combat vets coming back and being able to disseminate their real world experiences in the capacity that they can today? The answer is never.

All of this lead to the questioning of a lot of things. Some really good questions like:

-How fast can you accurately shoot a 9mm, versus a .40?
-Why do you think less ammo is an advantage?
-Who has compiled real world information regarding terminal effect of respective chamberings?
-Why are we using light for caliber in the 9mm, and heavy for caliber in the .40?
-Why are we using light for caliber in the 9mm, and heavy for caliber in the .45?
-What is the service life (this means reliability for all you that don't habla) for a sidearm chambered for a watered down 10mm, that was built to withstand a 9mm?
-If adequate lethality is acceptable for long arms used in combat, why is the same not pursued for sidearms?
-Who the fugk is Jeff Cooper?

The end result of these questions being asked, and answered, is that there is no real reason for most law enforcement entities to deviate from a properly loaded 9mm. That doesn't mean the .40 S&W isn't a great idea, because it is. Matter of fact, it's probably the most overlooked and underrated sporting cartridge out there. Whether you're considering handguns, rifles, or shotguns. It takes one of the greatest people shooting cartridges ever devised (the 38-40) and consolidates it into a pistol that's the size of a Glock 17 and has 15 +1 capacity.

That's a pretty incredible round and should always be recognized for its benefits. But if you think those benefits outshine a 9mm when discussed in the context of law enforcement or military applications, you're high on fugking bat schit and have much to learn regarding all things sidearms. Not only in their use, but their history.



You're welcome,
Flave

Yes

I have 2 Glocks and both are in .40. A model 23 and a 35. I see no reason to get rid of either one. I had a 4046 Smith but it had a horrible long trigger pull. I did trade it off. I will have the Glocks until I die.

kwg

3 for me, 27,23,35 (conversion barrels for all of them). And a Ruger PC Carbine in 40. It’s just the way my collection expanded over the years.


If y’all shoot/carry the way you train? Do you wait for the beep if chit is going down? lol

Flave, you fugg with any gen 5 .40s yet?