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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,274
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,274 |
I'm a wigger. I smoke Newports, drive a car with dubs, drink 40s and carry a Foh-Tay. If you talk smack about the Foh Tay, you're just a privileged, toxic white male trying to colonize BIPOCs.
Eliminate qualified immunity and you'll eliminate cops who act like they are above the law.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,256
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,256 |
I can't believe how much back and forth exists among self-proclaimed gun nuts when it comes to chamberings.
The evolution of the .40 S&W is very well documented and far from ancient history. The infamous Miami Shootout lead America's premiere law enforcement agency to pursue the optimal law enforcement cartridge. A lot of people recognize that, that pursuit ended with the 10mm. But they fail to recognize that, that pursuit was lead by the recognized "experts" in handgunning at the time and were furthered by people that fully accepted those "experts" were the be-all, end-all, in pistolering. Hindsight being 20/20 (if you're inclined to look at these things objectively) will quickly reveal none of those people were experts in anything. Except themselves.
The 10mm that was propositioned to be the cure-all for all things law enforcement was not a new concept. The same ballistics and performance were achievable via the 38-40 for a long, long, time. But some loud mouth know-it-all's found a way to get it into a rimless case and a gun that was (until being adopted by the FBI) viewed as a ginormous piece of fugking schit. Because it was.
But this pursuit of ballistic nirvana was seized by a number of salesmen. Not the least of which were the disciples of a guy named Jeff "Scout Rifle" Cooper. They convinced the FBI that bigger was better and the FBI took this info hook, line, and sinker. Development of a pistol that wasn't a complete piece of fugking schit became a priority for the FBI and that meant it was a priority for the premiere firearm's manufacturer (for LEOs) in the country. The result was a massive framed pistol that could handle the true ballistics of the 10mm. Please note the italicized text. It was made to handle the true ballistics of the 10mm, at that time.
It doesn't take somebody as genius as Jeff Cooper and his disciples to figure out that there is no way in fugking Christ a bunch of FBI agents were going to be able to wield this cartridge/handgun combo effectively. Matter of fact, you'd need to do some very creative comic book writing to find a pack of mother fugkers that could wield that combo effectively. It was a stupid idea then, and it would be a stupid idea today. But what did that stupid idea bring the LEO community to?
You guessed it. A slightly less stupid idea. Because egos and lack of data weren't going to make a buncha know-nothings announce to the world that their idea was fugking stupid.
Enter the .40 S&W....
Now consider what the .40 S&W truly is. It's the solution proposed by cultists, gun manufacturers and ammo manufacturers to collaborate on an idea that they had already sold but watched fail. The solution was to take the buck & snort of the 10mm, out of the 10mm, and squeeze into a pistol frame that was never designed to handle the buck & snort of a watered down 10mm. Great idea, right?
Wrong.
But the biggest factor in all of these happenings really needs to be viewed through the window of pre-internet. This was a time when anybody anywhere could claim expertise in all sorts of fields and be taken seriously. Nobody was out there to call them on their bullschit. This was the era of Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayboob, and Frank Dux. Nobody really knew better and those that did had no voice to debate absurd concepts. I mean after all, Guns & Ammo only had so many openings and they sure as fugk weren't going to give them to anyone that said the accepted form of gun Bibles were full of fugking schit.
But the brakes were ultimately pumped on this steady stream of bullschit and this was largely (OK, completely) due to the wide stream use of the internet. So much information was being pumped into the real world that it made the real world take a step back and question a lot of previously accepted nonsense. Not to mention the United States had (kinda still is) been at war since 2001. When in the history of man have you seen this quantity of certified and stamped combat vets coming back and being able to disseminate their real world experiences in the capacity that they can today? The answer is never.
All of this lead to the questioning of a lot of things. Some really good questions like:
-How fast can you accurately shoot a 9mm, versus a .40? -Why do you think less ammo is an advantage? -Who has compiled real world information regarding terminal effect of respective chamberings? -Why are we using light for caliber in the 9mm, and heavy for caliber in the .40? -Why are we using light for caliber in the 9mm, and heavy for caliber in the .45? -What is the service life (this means reliability for all you that don't habla) for a sidearm chambered for a watered down 10mm, that was built to withstand a 9mm? -If adequate lethality is acceptable for long arms used in combat, why is the same not pursued for sidearms? -Who the fugk is Jeff Cooper?
The end result of these questions being asked, and answered, is that there is no real reason for most law enforcement entities to deviate from a properly loaded 9mm. That doesn't mean the .40 S&W isn't a great idea, because it is. Matter of fact, it's probably the most overlooked and underrated sporting cartridge out there. Whether you're considering handguns, rifles, or shotguns. It takes one of the greatest people shooting cartridges ever devised (the 38-40) and consolidates it into a pistol that's the size of a Glock 17 and has 15 +1 capacity.
That's a pretty incredible round and should always be recognized for its benefits. But if you think those benefits outshine a 9mm when discussed in the context of law enforcement or military applications, you're high on fugking bat schit and have much to learn regarding all things sidearms. Not only in their use, but their history.
You're welcome, Flave
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,283
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,283 |
9mm has undoubtedly recently been experiencing a resurgence in popularity with law enforcement and civilians alike. At the same time testosterone levels have been dropping amongst western men. Coincidence??
The only .40 I own is a drop in conversion barrel for my Glock 20. It's a pussycat to shoot and has served well on all kinds of critters. For me the minimum requirement I have for a serious handgun is what I'd feel comfortable with crawling on hands and knees through thick Texas brush in the dark after potentially wounded and pissed off hogs. I've done it with the .40 and it's gotten the job done. I wouldn't trust a 9mm for that unless it was loaded with boutique, heavy +P hardcast. Even then I would hesitate.
I prefer the 10mm but the .40 is right there nipping at it's heals performance wise. I've killed enough animals to know that there's not enough difference to make a difference between .40 and garden variety 10mm defensive loads. It's also nice to know that in a pinch I can use .40 ammo in a factory 10mm if I needed too.
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Joined: Jan 2018
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 23,506 |
Back in the late 90’s I bought a Smith 1076 off a retired FBI agent that had traded it in at a LGS. It came with his paddle holster and 6 mags. After firing it. I tried to carry it as a concealed weapon for several days. Yeah, that was a horrible idea. I traded it in on a Sig Sauer P225. I love my Glock G20. Obviously, the difference between shooting a Glock 20 compared to a Smith 1076 is day and night. I’ve owned a few 40 cal pistols. I really liked my Kahr Tactical, in 40 cal. I shot and carried that pistol for several years. Aside from the long trigger pull of the Kahr. It was a nice carry weapon. Recoil and recovery for multiple shot strings, even in a smaller pistol package was somewhat mitigated by the steel frame of the Kahr Tactical. The pistol(s) I regret selling are two West Germany Sig P225’s, that back in the day new, set me back around $550 bucks. Single stack 9mm, accurate, ran through most all ammunition without a glitch. And easy to hide for me. 🦫
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog “Molon Labe”
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Joined: Jan 2018
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 23,506 |
Remember the 357 Sig?
Whew, baby, that was gonna be a serious contender for making bad guys ‘DRT’
Had one of them for a short while. Ammo was expensive.
#BlackTalonAmmo
🦫
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog “Molon Labe”
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,706 Likes: 17
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,706 Likes: 17 |
Remember the 357 Sig?
Whew, baby, that was gonna be a serious contender for making bad guys ‘DRT’
Had one of them for a short while. Ammo was expensive. I had one, too. A Sig P239. Cool gun. Had it been in 9mm (an option), I likely would have kept it.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,935 Likes: 1 |
I have a 357 Sig in the Sig P320 it is very very accurate Also have a 10mm in the XDM-ELITE also very accurate. The 10mm can also fire 40 S&W usually
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,500
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,500 |
I can’t shoot a pistol because I have no thumbs. Nugget In many ways a perfect grip wouldn’t include any thumbs. Can you teach nugget?
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,760
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,760 |
I really like the 40 S&W.....in a 610, 310, and a G20 with a conversion barrel. The 310 can get a little snappy. Everyone who shoots it loves the 610 with 40's.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 19,537 Likes: 1 |
I'd be happy with .45's and 9's. But I have a couple boxes of .40 so I'm happy with it too. I've shot a lot of different .40s from a lot of different makers. I thought the CZ 75 was the perfect platform for it, till I bought my M&P. I may buy a 2nd to try out the red dot thingies that Clarke is always ranting about.
MAGA
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Joined: Sep 2021
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 4,016 |
I'd be happy with .45's and 9's. But I have a couple boxes of .40 so I'm happy with it too. I've shot a lot of different .40s from a lot of different makers. I thought the CZ 75 was the perfect platform for it, till I bought my M&P. I may buy a 2nd to try out the red dot thingies that Clarke is always ranting about. Yep. I pulled the trigger on a Performance Center M2.0 Pro 5" CORE. Now I'm looking for a red dot and a SIG .357 swap barrel for it. At least I have plenty of ammo to feed it. For a range toy, a red dot is like cheating.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,556 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,556 Likes: 3 |
I can't believe how much back and forth exists among self-proclaimed gun nuts when it comes to chamberings.
The evolution of the .40 S&W is very well documented and far from ancient history. The infamous Miami Shootout lead America's premiere law enforcement agency to pursue the optimal law enforcement cartridge. A lot of people recognize that, that pursuit ended with the 10mm. But they fail to recognize that, that pursuit was lead by the recognized "experts" in handgunning at the time and were furthered by people that fully accepted those "experts" were the be-all, end-all, in pistolering. Hindsight being 20/20 (if you're inclined to look at these things objectively) will quickly reveal none of those people were experts in anything. Except themselves.
The 10mm that was propositioned to be the cure-all for all things law enforcement was not a new concept. The same ballistics and performance were achievable via the 38-40 for a long, long, time. But some loud mouth know-it-all's found a way to get it into a rimless case and a gun that was (until being adopted by the FBI) viewed as a ginormous piece of fugking schit. Because it was.
But this pursuit of ballistic nirvana was seized by a number of salesmen. Not the least of which were the disciples of a guy named Jeff "Scout Rifle" Cooper. They convinced the FBI that bigger was better and the FBI took this info hook, line, and sinker. Development of a pistol that wasn't a complete piece of fugking schit became a priority for the FBI and that meant it was a priority for the premiere firearm's manufacturer (for LEOs) in the country. The result was a massive framed pistol that could handle the true ballistics of the 10mm. Please note the italicized text. It was made to handle the true ballistics of the 10mm, at that time.
It doesn't take somebody as genius as Jeff Cooper and his disciples to figure out that there is no way in fugking Christ a bunch of FBI agents were going to be able to wield this cartridge/handgun combo effectively. Matter of fact, you'd need to do some very creative comic book writing to find a pack of mother fugkers that could wield that combo effectively. It was a stupid idea then, and it would be a stupid idea today. But what did that stupid idea bring the LEO community to?
You guessed it. A slightly less stupid idea. Because egos and lack of data weren't going to make a buncha know-nothings announce to the world that their idea was fugking stupid.
Enter the .40 S&W....
Now consider what the .40 S&W truly is. It's the solution proposed by cultists, gun manufacturers and ammo manufacturers to collaborate on an idea that they had already sold but watched fail. The solution was to take the buck & snort of the 10mm, out of the 10mm, and squeeze into a pistol frame that was never designed to handle the buck & snort of a watered down 10mm. Great idea, right?
Wrong.
But the biggest factor in all of these happenings really needs to be viewed through the window of pre-internet. This was a time when anybody anywhere could claim expertise in all sorts of fields and be taken seriously. Nobody was out there to call them on their bullschit. This was the era of Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayboob, and Frank Dux. Nobody really knew better and those that did had no voice to debate absurd concepts. I mean after all, Guns & Ammo only had so many openings and they sure as fugk weren't going to give them to anyone that said the accepted form of gun Bibles were full of fugking schit.
But the brakes were ultimately pumped on this steady stream of bullschit and this was largely (OK, completely) due to the wide stream use of the internet. So much information was being pumped into the real world that it made the real world take a step back and question a lot of previously accepted nonsense. Not to mention the United States had (kinda still is) been at war since 2001. When in the history of man have you seen this quantity of certified and stamped combat vets coming back and being able to disseminate their real world experiences in the capacity that they can today? The answer is never.
All of this lead to the questioning of a lot of things. Some really good questions like:
-How fast can you accurately shoot a 9mm, versus a .40? -Why do you think less ammo is an advantage? -Who has compiled real world information regarding terminal effect of respective chamberings? -Why are we using light for caliber in the 9mm, and heavy for caliber in the .40? -Why are we using light for caliber in the 9mm, and heavy for caliber in the .45? -What is the service life (this means reliability for all you that don't habla) for a sidearm chambered for a watered down 10mm, that was built to withstand a 9mm? -If adequate lethality is acceptable for long arms used in combat, why is the same not pursued for sidearms? -Who the fugk is Jeff Cooper?
The end result of these questions being asked, and answered, is that there is no real reason for most law enforcement entities to deviate from a properly loaded 9mm. That doesn't mean the .40 S&W isn't a great idea, because it is. Matter of fact, it's probably the most overlooked and underrated sporting cartridge out there. Whether you're considering handguns, rifles, or shotguns. It takes one of the greatest people shooting cartridges ever devised (the 38-40) and consolidates it into a pistol that's the size of a Glock 17 and has 15 +1 capacity.
That's a pretty incredible round and should always be recognized for its benefits. But if you think those benefits outshine a 9mm when discussed in the context of law enforcement or military applications, you're high on fugking bat schit and have much to learn regarding all things sidearms. Not only in their use, but their history.
You're welcome, Flave damn good write .. me personally I like a 9 I want to hit harder I go to a 45.. the best thing to come from the 10 mm 45 to me is a 357 sig..
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,376
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,376 |
I can't believe how much back and forth exists among self-proclaimed gun nuts when it comes to chamberings.
The evolution of the .40 S&W is very well documented and far from ancient history. The infamous Miami Shootout lead America's premiere law enforcement agency to pursue the optimal law enforcement cartridge. A lot of people recognize that, that pursuit ended with the 10mm. But they fail to recognize that, that pursuit was lead by the recognized "experts" in handgunning at the time and were furthered by people that fully accepted those "experts" were the be-all, end-all, in pistolering. Hindsight being 20/20 (if you're inclined to look at these things objectively) will quickly reveal none of those people were experts in anything. Except themselves.
The 10mm that was propositioned to be the cure-all for all things law enforcement was not a new concept. The same ballistics and performance were achievable via the 38-40 for a long, long, time. But some loud mouth know-it-all's found a way to get it into a rimless case and a gun that was (until being adopted by the FBI) viewed as a ginormous piece of fugking schit. Because it was.
But this pursuit of ballistic nirvana was seized by a number of salesmen. Not the least of which were the disciples of a guy named Jeff "Scout Rifle" Cooper. They convinced the FBI that bigger was better and the FBI took this info hook, line, and sinker. Development of a pistol that wasn't a complete piece of fugking schit became a priority for the FBI and that meant it was a priority for the premiere firearm's manufacturer (for LEOs) in the country. The result was a massive framed pistol that could handle the true ballistics of the 10mm. Please note the italicized text. It was made to handle the true ballistics of the 10mm, at that time.
It doesn't take somebody as genius as Jeff Cooper and his disciples to figure out that there is no way in fugking Christ a bunch of FBI agents were going to be able to wield this cartridge/handgun combo effectively. Matter of fact, you'd need to do some very creative comic book writing to find a pack of mother fugkers that could wield that combo effectively. It was a stupid idea then, and it would be a stupid idea today. But what did that stupid idea bring the LEO community to?
You guessed it. A slightly less stupid idea. Because egos and lack of data weren't going to make a buncha know-nothings announce to the world that their idea was fugking stupid.
Enter the .40 S&W....
Now consider what the .40 S&W truly is. It's the solution proposed by cultists, gun manufacturers and ammo manufacturers to collaborate on an idea that they had already sold but watched fail. The solution was to take the buck & snort of the 10mm, out of the 10mm, and squeeze into a pistol frame that was never designed to handle the buck & snort of a watered down 10mm. Great idea, right?
Wrong.
But the biggest factor in all of these happenings really needs to be viewed through the window of pre-internet. This was a time when anybody anywhere could claim expertise in all sorts of fields and be taken seriously. Nobody was out there to call them on their bullschit. This was the era of Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayboob, and Frank Dux. Nobody really knew better and those that did had no voice to debate absurd concepts. I mean after all, Guns & Ammo only had so many openings and they sure as fugk weren't going to give them to anyone that said the accepted form of gun Bibles were full of fugking schit.
But the brakes were ultimately pumped on this steady stream of bullschit and this was largely (OK, completely) due to the wide stream use of the internet. So much information was being pumped into the real world that it made the real world take a step back and question a lot of previously accepted nonsense. Not to mention the United States had (kinda still is) been at war since 2001. When in the history of man have you seen this quantity of certified and stamped combat vets coming back and being able to disseminate their real world experiences in the capacity that they can today? The answer is never.
All of this lead to the questioning of a lot of things. Some really good questions like:
-How fast can you accurately shoot a 9mm, versus a .40? -Why do you think less ammo is an advantage? -Who has compiled real world information regarding terminal effect of respective chamberings? -Why are we using light for caliber in the 9mm, and heavy for caliber in the .40? -Why are we using light for caliber in the 9mm, and heavy for caliber in the .45? -What is the service life (this means reliability for all you that don't habla) for a sidearm chambered for a watered down 10mm, that was built to withstand a 9mm? -If adequate lethality is acceptable for long arms used in combat, why is the same not pursued for sidearms? -Who the fugk is Jeff Cooper?
The end result of these questions being asked, and answered, is that there is no real reason for most law enforcement entities to deviate from a properly loaded 9mm. That doesn't mean the .40 S&W isn't a great idea, because it is. Matter of fact, it's probably the most overlooked and underrated sporting cartridge out there. Whether you're considering handguns, rifles, or shotguns. It takes one of the greatest people shooting cartridges ever devised (the 38-40) and consolidates it into a pistol that's the size of a Glock 17 and has 15 +1 capacity.
That's a pretty incredible round and should always be recognized for its benefits. But if you think those benefits outshine a 9mm when discussed in the context of law enforcement or military applications, you're high on fugking bat schit and have much to learn regarding all things sidearms. Not only in their use, but their history.
You're welcome, Flave My dog loves you. I agree Yes Me too.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,212 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,212 Likes: 2 |
I have 2 Glocks and both are in .40. A model 23 and a 35. I see no reason to get rid of either one. I had a 4046 Smith but it had a horrible long trigger pull. I did trade it off. I will have the Glocks until I die.
kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,143 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,143 Likes: 4 |
I have 2 Glocks and both are in .40. A model 23 and a 35. I see no reason to get rid of either one. I had a 4046 Smith but it had a horrible long trigger pull. I did trade it off. I will have the Glocks until I die.
kwg 3 for me, 27,23,35 (conversion barrels for all of them). And a Ruger PC Carbine in 40. It’s just the way my collection expanded over the years. If y’all shoot/carry the way you train? Do you wait for the beep if chit is going down? lol
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I have 2 Glocks and both are in .40. A model 23 and a 35. I see no reason to get rid of either one. I had a 4046 Smith but it had a horrible long trigger pull. I did trade it off. I will have the Glocks until I die.
kwg 3 for me, 27,23,35 (conversion barrels for all of them). And a Ruger PC Carbine in 40. It’s just the way my collection expanded over the years. If y’all shoot/carry the way you train? Do you wait for the beep if chit is going down? lol “Train how you fight” is one of the stupidest phrases that can fall out of an instructors mouth.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 4,813
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 4,813 |
Flave, you fugg with any gen 5 .40s yet?
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,706 Likes: 17
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,706 Likes: 17 |
Flave, you fugg with any gen 5 .40s yet? Didn't know they had any. Did they add back the extra cross pin?
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,238
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,238 |
I have a couple .40 Glocks, a 22 and a 23. Carried both on duty at times and have confidence in both. IMO .40 is a great caliber. Recoil might be a bit more than a 9mm but to me an insignificant difference. Have seen some females with very small hands that transitioned from 9mm to .40 without any real change in proficiency.
In a gunfight I would prefer a 180 or 165gr .40 diameter bullet entering a body over a 115gr .35 diameter bullet.
"Put none but Americans on guard tonight." -George Washington
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Joined: Mar 2020
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 4,813 |
No but the slide is slightly thicker and heavier. Been looking at a 22 mos but can't find much in they way of reviews.
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