Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Another Bear Stopping Thread

"TKO value" = Fudd lore

Harold Johnson of Cooper Landing, AK hit upon the right medicine in the early 1950s.
A 400 gr FP out of a Model 71 or 1886 Winchester. Lever actions are faster in action than bolt guns,
and will hold as many cartridges. A 450 Alaskan can push that 400 gr bullet to 1985 FPS with a 24 in barrel-
that is not max -so 2nd and third shots come fast. Johnson had close calls on bears with a 30-06, so used his gun shop: Johnson's Kenai Rifles-to come up with an answer: 450/50 Alaskans

Not just AK-but the lower 48: the WY guide who was ambushed by a sow grizzly and large cub
after taking over an elk kill. About 4 years ago.
Both hunter and guide were mauled, guide killed-leaving wife and kids. One Glock between them, but
badly handled by bow hunter.
BOTH should have had handguns. Widow would agree.

Just like the inner big city...you never know when a bear who has just been in a fight
will come around the corner. A 22 or .410 may eventually kill the bear, but not within your
ER or last visit/ICU time...lifetime.

I've read this whole thread to this point and I'm not about to argue with anyone with experience. And I'm not going back to quote anyone, but at age 87 I'm first and last a black bear hunter since 1989 when I shot my first one over bait using an outfitter in the northeast of our province. I owned a .338 Win Mag but chose to purchase a classic Marlin in .45-70 for that hunt. I didn't shoot a bear that year but did the next. And, in hindsight from many more hunts, the load was perfect even though the bulet was a bit too soft - a Speer 400gr FP at 1865 fps. Range was 100 yds and poi was just behind the right shoulder. The trophy quality bear flipped over backwards and ran full out for ten yards into some alders where he landed on his back with all four paws pointed heavenward. I stood in the treestand and gave another between neck and shoulder that stopped his flaining the air. I was absolutely alone during the process until darkness when the guide and two helpers arrived in a pickup. Then the field dressing, and it took all four of use to load it into the back of the pickup. The Speer bullet expanded to 1" and retained 90.5% of original mass. Not sure which of the two Speers was caught in the offside armpit. The other must have come out when gutted. Bullet impact was about 1550 fps.

In the interim, I've killed bears with a variety of cartridges. Fast forward to 2011 - 2015. I killed four black bears on the same private property bordering a Provincial Wildlands Park. This was an old abandoned farm where I and a couple of partners had privileges to hunt bear - and there were lots of them. During my last hunt there in 2015, I identified on my trail cam eleven distinct bears... two were sows with cubs. Three of the bears I shot over that period were like triplets all six- footers, the other was much smaller that had been wounded by a young, inexperienced friend and partner.

But the point I want to make is this: Three where shot with my 9.3 x 62, including the cripple, wounded by my young friend. I chased it down, shot it with a 286gr Hornady SP-RP going away. MV was +2400. It was a going away shot that entered behind the short ribs, took out three vertabra and make exit somewhere into the wilderness. I killed two others over bait using hot loads from the 9.3 x 62, a 286 Partition at +2600 fps under the chin into the heart, and that 6' went twenty yards and then over an escarpment. It wasn't "fun" getting it outta there! That bullet was found in skinning - it fell from the right side flank, retained 74% eight with some of its "pettals" pointing forward - it had "flipped" and was going backwards when stopped by the hide!

The last bear, on that property was also killed (like the one shot by the 286 Partition) by a single shot from the 9.3 x 62, this time using the 250gr AB at ~ 2700 (high back hit that took out heart and some lung material, making exit between left front leg and chest. The blood trail could be followed by a blind person! Yet it went 20 yards back into the thick brush it had emerged from.

But the first bear I killed with a single shot on that property in 2011, I was using a single-shot .45-70. These kills were over four years but all within a 300yd circle. They were all in uncut grass about 30" deep. But that first one was shot exactly at the same distance and profile as the one shot with the 286 NP. Both under the chin because that's all I could see as both were facing me - one at 68 yds and the other at 70 yards. But the real difference was :THE 465gr FT HARDCAST from the .45-70 FLATTENED the bear on the spot without a CNS hit! It let the muzzle at 1900 fps and impact was over 1700 fps!

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE no matter how we may want to describe those differences or measure them!!!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Our family homestead, and base camp of our exclusive hunting areas ,is centrally located it what AK F&G considers one of the densest populations of Brown bears in the world. And have been guiding brown bear hunters, and killing wounded bears for 43 years, I will say that NO handgun makes an good weapon for stopping wounded bears !

I have zero experience hunting bears of any type. I will say that the two grizzly bears I saw in the San Diego zoo a few years ago intimidated the crap out of me. Made it seem that no gun I had was big enough. Granted I have hunted SA with a .458 Lott and .35 Whelen, but it was something about the bears that messed with my head.

What firearm do you carry when guiding?

I can say I have stopped 2 grizzlies by shooting them both in the head. I stopped them from living, but stopping a bear from living and stopping a bear from killing is 2 different things…

Thank you Phil!

That needed saying.

my friend who lived in Alaska for 20 some years and was a frontline Viet Nam wounded vet who was with the rock soldiers in Nam has killed a few big bears other things because he had too . he said he preferred shooting bears and other things farther away anymore with his 338 .

A business associate had a daughter that had a job with the Alaska DNR doing bear research field work. He told me that they went out in teams and said that they carried 12 gauge shotguns with the first round loaded with fine bird shot and slugs in the magazine. The thinking was that near nothing was going to be decisive in stopping a bear charge, but if they could blind and disorient the bear with bird shot, they could kill it with the slugs.

I’ve watched those warden shows on TV and shotguns with slugs seem to be the weapon of choice there too for putting down a bad bear.

Those poor DNR people were idiots. I'm glad his daughter survived her time around them. Things like .375s, .416s, .458s, and so on have been decisively stopping bear charges for a very long time.

Absolutely no bear expurt here! In my 50 plus years all over the US and Canada hunting I've only once, thankfully, had a very, very, close black bear encounter! And that was up in the NW corner of Saskatchewan on a moose hunt. A lot of things worked in my favor that day allowing me to to walk away from a very bad situation. And when people say it happens fast, it doesn't, it happens even faster than fast! Like I said, a lot of things worked out in my favor and not the bears favor. I'm also fully aware that you have no idea how you'll react or what you'll do until it happens. No idea at all, I don't care what you think or say. On that day, it worked out for me, on another day, it might work out for the bear! This happened years ago and is still very "sharp" in my mind. If I hadn't been facing the direction I was facing, or wasn't at the ready like I was because my guide kept telling me to be ready that it was a big bull moose we were closing in on, who knows what the outcome could have been. As a side note, after the dust settled from the bear incident, we saw the bull moose, across a lake, and he was indeed a shooter, but I never got close enough for a shot at him.

I've bear hunted more than once, mostly bowhunting up in Northern Minnesota. The incident above is absolutely nothing like bear hunting!

I agree, but isn't the object of having a good, large caliber handgun on and handy, to have immediate access to it while cleaning/dressing out large game. When one's rifle is leaning against a rock, bush, or tree, and not immediately available??

I've killed only two Black bears -- both with my .280 Remington -- and have only seen one Grizzly in Glacier Park and another in the L.A. Zoo. But when I've hunted elk in Grizzly country, I carried my .338 Win. Mag., and my S&W .41 Mag. When my partner and I were gutting, quartering, and packing an elk in Grizzly country, the rifles were usually leaning against a rock or tree... but our handguns were always on us.

Fortunately, never had to kill a Grizzly who was wounded or wanted our meat.

Just my thoughts.

L.W.

"Those poor DNR people were idiots" because the carried shotguns? Let's not get ahead of ourselves! Shotguns are cheap (tax payer $s here) and are much easier to shoot with accuracy than a heavy bolt action in 375 or 458. The BA requires much more skill and cool nerve to use as a defensive rifle and most DNR folks are not trained for such skills, it's more of a matter of economy of scale, what works best for most people.

I'm a retired electrician, I did a lot of work at the Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago and also the Brookfield Zoo. Every animal house has a Homak gun safe in it with what they deem the appropriate threat response firearm, but only the head zoo keeper in each house has the keys to said safe. In the Polar Bear house there's a 375H&H, in the hooved animal house (very large exotic buffalo) there's an 870 12 gauge slug gun. I was there long enough to get to know the head zoo keepers in each house. They were required to "qualify" with each firearm but in talking to them, none of them knew where to shoot the animal to stop it. I also happened to be a range officer at the range where they qualify. All I'll say is the safest place to be when they shoot is in front of them! I can't I imagine them touching off a 373H&H in that densely populated area.

Interestingly, in the Polar Bear house, there's a taped off section on the floor surrounding the door they open to feed the bear in bright yellow tape. I asked the significance of the tape as it was about 10 feet away from the door on the 3 sides. I was told that's how far they can reach! I'm sure a little extra was added for more safety, but it impressed me and thankfully, I didn't have a lot of work in that area of the house.

Just some facts I found interesting for methods in a very populated area.

I disagree and this article of handguns being 97% effective against bear attacks tends to prove my point

https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/d...97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/

They're idiots for using birdshot as a defensive round. Actual experience has taught me that shotguns as a bear defense weapon are compromise weapons. I've killed brown bears trying to kill me. I've spoken to multiple people who've been mauled. I've dealt with a fatal mauling. I've cleaned up the messes of multiple brown bears wounded by slugs. Muscle memory and training are definite considerations, but the overriding consideration should be effectiveness. Shotguns have only one suitable loading that I know of: The 3" magnum Brenneke loading (and that's no .375 I can tell you!) That means there's lots of sub par loadings out there that the uninformed trust their lives to. Bolt actions are easy to use effectively, one need only take the time to learn.

In all of hunting and gun lore, nothing stirs dudes' the hearts like the idea of "bear stopping", "bear charge" or "bear gun". It's an idea that drips with excitement. The promise of danger and the manful concept of being greatly tested and prevailing are joined to the fact of actual threat for people out roaming where dangerous animals live. Consequently the topic gets alot of talk. But much like 14 year old boys discussing sex, most of it is fantasy and imagination promulgated by people with no actual experience, bloviating as though their opinions are the real deal. Having sorted some stuff out and gained some experience I can tell you a couple things. First, if you take the time to gain proficiency with an effective weapon, and do plenty of if-then thinking you'll likely prevail. This means you know how to use a proper firearm and can keep your head with things go sideways. Secondly, you don't get the fight you want, you get the fight you get, and sometimes stuff goes bad in spite of your best efforts, so carry the tools you need in that case. I hear lots of talk about guns, but little to none about tourniquets, blood stoppers, pressure bandages, and communication devices. We would all agree that being able defend yourself and others is a basic skill of manhood. In this case, lets make sure that we properly prepare and equip ourselves to do so.

Just to add to this: the majority of slugs on the market are soft lead and penetrate about the same or worse than a 9mm bonded JHP from a pistol. I've shot a lot of slugs into auto bodies/auto glass and shot a lot of deer with slugs and they are great for deer or two-legged critters but that's about it.

Untrained DNR interns would be better off with a shotgun than a hand cannon or a big bore rifle. Some may have real training, most would be rudimentary. When dealing with bears, I think the #1 defense is to pay attention to the situation. Usually they have their heads down absorbed in whatever.

Pretty good example of that here https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/201...im-of-fatal-interior-black-bear-mauling/

Not sure any firearm would have changed the outcome.

Not really, the forest service has been equipping seasonal college kid types with .375s for years around here.

Bullet placement and penetration (a result of its shape and construction) are the primary and irreplaceable components required to quickly stop a serious bear charge.
And even if you are highly familiar and competent with your weapon of choice, ESPECIALLY A HANDGUN!, your fine motor control skills will rapidly deteriorate, as will your ability to hit a small, rapidly moving target