We haven’t had a good “piss’n match” in some time on this topic! But, I’d like to stir the pot a little by asking this question.

Would you take/choose a large bore (.458Win., 470 NE, or similar) African Rifle over a large capacity 10 mm semi auto handgun to stop an attacking bear? Or…. would some of you opt for a big-bore handgun!

Take a look at the following article! I could not get the link to open….so copied! There may be some surprises awaiting you! My choice remains unchanged ! memtb



This is a test. Rank the following in order from that offering the deepest to the shallowest penetration: .500 Nitro Express, .458 Win. Mag., .45-70, .500 Linebaugh and .45 Colt. If you're like most shooters, you would probably say they are already in the right order -- and you would be wrong. The true ranking is neither a guess nor an opinion, but rather fact gained under controlled conditions. I have just returned from the first annual Big Bore Sixgun Seminar hosted in Cody, Wyo., by custom gun-maker John Linebaugh.

Most -- make that all -- seminars I have attended in the past have been presented by firearms manufacturers with the express purpose of showcasing their products. This seminar was quite different. Over 100 of us gathered to discuss big bore sixguns, how they work, why they work and, most importantly, why they are so effective on big game. No one was selling anything except truth.

We spent the first morning discussing big bore sixguns with Linebaugh and then the afternoon was spent doing actual penetration tests with the biggest sixguns and rifles available.

For any cartridge to be effective -- whether it's fired from a sixgun or rifle -- the "Four Ps" must be in place. Those are Placement, Power, Performance and Penetration. We define these terms as follows.

Placement: where the bullet strikes the intended target.

Power: the muzzle energy or TKO value.

Performance: whether the bullet expands, holds together, or comes apart.


Penetration: how deeply the bullet travels in the target medium, especially in a large animal.

Certainly a solid bullet, whether hardcast or jacketed, can be expected to penetrate much deeper than a jacketed hollowpoint or soft nose. That is a given. The wise hunter decides, according to his intended quarry, whether he needs ultimate expansion, deepest possible penetration or a combination of both.

As a shooter of big bore sixguns for well over four decades, and also one who knows how effective sixguns can be on big game, I must say I was surprised at how effective various sixgun cartridges proved to be during the penetration tests. For the shooting and experimentation, the standard bundles of newspaper soaked in livestock watering tanks were used. No guess. No golly. No opinion.

Going back to the five cartridges mentioned at the beginning the results were most interesting. Randy Garrett's .45-70 Hammerhead 530 gr. hardcast at 1,550 fps went 55" into wet newspaper. A 495 gr. hardcast .500 Linebaugh fired from a 5.5" sixgun with a muzzle velocity of 1,270 fps was right behind it at 52".

The .500 Nitro Express with a solid weighing 570 grs. came in third at 48", followed by the .458 Win. Mag. with a 500 gr. solid traveling at a muzzle velocity of 2,260 fps and 47" of penetration. Finally, the .45 Colt with a 350 gr. hardcast bullet at 1,400 fps gave 43" of penetration, or only 5" less than the .500 Nitro and 4" less than the .458.

Of course, the .45 Colt load tested is only for use in the Freedom Arms .454 or custom five-shot .45 Colt revolvers.

Other Cartridges

The .44 Magnum was not really given a thorough testing as the only load on hand was a 250 gr. Keith bullet at 1,200 fps which went 27" into the wet newsprint. At next year's seminar, hopefully we will have a larger variation of .44 Magnum loads to test, especially with 300 gr. bullets at muzzle velocities from 1,200 to 1,400 fps.

We also had only one load for the new .480 Ruger, Hornady's factory offering of a 325 gr. XTP at 1,350 fps. This round is not designed for deepest penetration but did expand well and travel 17" into the newsprint.

How did the truly big bore sixguns compare, the Big Berthas, the .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .475 and .500 Linebaughs? For the .45 Colt, in addition to the already mentioned load, a 310 gr. Keith at 1,250 fps -- one of my favorite loads and safe for use in Ruger's Blackhawk or Bisley -- penetrated 36", while the 300 gr. LBT traveling at 1,180 fps penetrated 2" deeper.


Using Cor-Bon's 360 gr. bonded core at 1,500 fps in the .454 yielded 45" of penetration. Moving up to the .475 Linebaugh, a 420 gr. LBT at 1,335 fps did 47" while the same bullet at an easy-shooting 1,050 fps still penetrated to 40".

We have already mentioned the second-place finishing .500 Linebaugh load. Others from this category of the biggest of the big bores included a 480 gr. Keith-style bullet at 1,200 fps and 41"; a 435 gr. LBT at 1,270 fps, 38"; and a 435 gr. LBT at only 1,000 fps still went 34" into the test medium.

This tells me that for most of us, and the game we pursue, either a .475 or .500 Linebaugh traveling at a relatively sedate 1,000 fps will do anything and everything we could ever hope for.

Actually, we can draw the further conclusion that the .44 Magnum with a 250 gr. bullet at 1,200 fps or a 300 gr. .45 Colt at 1,250 fps will certainly handle any deer that walks -- but then we already knew that!

Now we know with actual experimentation why it is big bore sixguns perform so well on large or dangerous animals including Cape buffalo, elephant, lion and the big bears of Alaska.

The big bore sixguns in this case, from top left clockwise Ruger .44 Magnum Freedom Arms .454 and Ruger Custom .45 Colt.

Ruger Custom .500 Linebaugh and Freedom Arms .475 Linebaugh can actually out penetrate most rifles.
"Who says the .500 Linebaugh doesn't kick?"

Cartridge Bullet Velocity Penetration

.45-70 530 gr. hardcast lead 1,550 fps 55"
.500 Linebaugh 495 gr. hardcast lead 1,270 fps 52"
.500 Nitro Express 570 gr. FMJ solid 2,000 fps 48"
.458 Win. Mag. 500 gr. FMJ solid 2,260 fps 47"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,335 fps 47"
.454 Casull 360 gr. honded core 1,500 fps 45"
.45 Colt 350 gr. hardcast lead 1,400 fps 43"
.500 Linebaugh 480 gr. Keith 1,200 fps 41"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,050 fps 40"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,270 fps 38"
.45 Colt 300 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,180 fps 38"
.45 Colt 310 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,250 fps 36"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,000 fps 34"
.44 Magnum 250 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,200 fps 27"
.480 Ruger 325 gr. XTP 1,350 fps 17"

AR15, 458 Socom, it will ruin their day

I'm taking the big bore rifle

I think a 45-70 lever might be a good choice.

12 gauge 870 short barrel with Brenneke slugs. Not that I have any experience with bears. But this is a fearsome weapon.

Ron

I like it

this should be entertaining ....

That 325gn XTP would be my very LAST choice for my .480s.

Brenneke Black Magic slugs (600gn) would be my first choice.

405gn WFN and/or

380gn copper WFN

for .45/70.

Soooooo, no one is gonna choose a semi auto 10 mm over the big bore rifles!

Though, I surprised that no one choose one of the big bore revolvers. Easier to carry than the rifle as it can be on person at all times while working around camp, ect., faster follow up shots if you have time for a follow up shot than a bolt gun. Though a double rifle would be faster than all others…..for two shots. And….the big bore revolvers out penetrated most of the rifles. Penetration is a nice thing to have on a large animal….more penetration generally means more stuff damaged!

I’d suggest that this test shows the big bore revolvers can hold their on and certainly be effective in a defense situation. Perhaps even superior in some situations! memtb

.45 Colt 310 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,250 fps 36"


Ain't no such critter. Elmer never designed a 310 grain bullet for the .45 Colt. If he didn't design it you'll have to call it something else besides a Keith. Folks get mighty loose with that name.

It probably would have been more appropriate to say….Keith style, rather than Keith! Though, I hope you got a little more from the tests than just that! memtb

I have a cousin who spent a great deal of time in Alaska while he was in the military. His take on the subject was: "You can kill 'em, but you can't stop 'em."

I spent 7 years in Alaska and my take is if you can Kill them, you stop them

I've done a lot of testing of big-bore bullets in tough media (dry glossy magazines, plus wood planks and hard cover dry books). There were a few surprises, like a 500gr Speer African Grand Slam making only 6" penetration, lost the front core retaining 310gr (62%), and a 350gr TSX giving complete penetration, stopping at the last panel of the second box with two planks of wood between the boxes, retaining 100% unfired weight, and fully expanded at 18" penetration .

That's just one thing. A 330gr Barnes Banded passed through all of it and may still be going! A 350gr Hor RN was stopped at 4", lost its core and the remaining jacket weighed 51% with some smeared lead attached... and so on.

The point? There are too many variables to be pontifical! Impact velocity, media type, bullet weight, construction and shape are all players. Some high velocity projectiles penetrated the most and others were defeated early on due to their construction and shape. A 480gr Hor DGX passed completely through, hitting a ledge behind leaving a perfect .458" imprint and that bullet was never found along with a few others. And so on...

I've used a variety of bullets (hardcast, mono-expanders and regular cup-and -cores from my .45-70s and .458s on black bears, and all I can say about that is Big Bores will stop 'em right there!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Quote from Bob:

I've used a variety of bullets (hardcast, mono-expanders and regular cup-and -cores from my .45-70s and .458s on black bears, and all I can say about that is Big Bores will stop 'em right there!



Pretty accurate summary there Bob! When things can potentially get ugly, there is no substitute for cubic inches…..provided quantity bullets are used!


Heck….I forgot to insert a “needmore” into the “stopping” cartridge possibilities list! 🤔 memtb

MEMTB: The Linebaugh Seminar data you presented appears to be from the first seminar. There is much more data from later seminars which is more extensive. As an example a test was added that included cow bones to see how that affected penetration. More loads are available such as .480 Ruger data with cast bullets, Buffalo Bore loaded ammunition, etc.

I shot a wounded black bear once from less than 20’ as it ran towards me. In the chest with a 510gr WW SP from my 458. Bear rolled, changed direction and ran 50 or more yards before stopping dead, happened so fast I didn’t have time to shoot again. 6 1/2’ black bear.

A buddy shot a charging 7 foot grizzly in the center chest with a WW white box 240 SP out of a 6” 44 magnum from about 40-50 feet. He folded and died instantly, never twitched.

I shot another wounded black bear that was over 6 feet with a 150 Norma out of my 300 Savage, he rolled and never moved.

A good friend killed a 6 1/2’ grizzly that was trying to eat him once in the eye socket from 12 feet with his 2” 44 Special with 250gr Keith style bullet doing about 900fps. He too folded up and never twitched.

Watched a guy shoot a small, 4’ 4” black bear through the shoulders with a 45/70 and 325gr Hornady Leverevolution factory loads. It ran 40 or 50 yards at high speed before rolling and flopping around bawling for a while before dying, had a 3” exit hole through the scapula.

Watched a guy shoot a 5 foot bear through the chest with a 375 H&H with Federal premium 300gr Partition ammo. It died pretty quickly but the bullet was perfectly mushroomed and under the hide on the off side. 60 yard shot and didn’t even hit a rib.

Another guy shot a 7 foot grizzly repeatedly through the chest with a 20” 458Socom and Barnes 300ttsx bullets. It didn’t charge or run thankfully because it looked like it had been killed with a .458 diameter drill bit.

On other occasions even bigger black bears would fold right up with a well placed shot from a 100gr 243 or a 130 out of a 270. This plus many other examples I witnessed told me that the only thing that could be counted on to absolutely stop one now either coming or going was a spine or head shot. Everything else is hope and speculation

This bids fair to be epic. I can't wait for the obligatory "alternate slugs with buckshot" guy to pipe in, or the "I'd use a scenar because it smoked an elk." guy, or all the other ignorant options to pop up.

bobmn, Thanks, I’ll try and find it! memtb

What you say is very true! My thoughts on this topic are, the greater the penetration ….the higher the possibility of hitting vital organs, perhaps even something CNS related! memtb

I have only killed bears with my bow and shotgun, typically over bait. Killing a bear over bait with a rifle is like taking candy from a baby lol

KB

Absolutely! But an injured, enraged, sow with cubs, defending a cache, ect…..may not be so easily stopped! memtb

True enough!

Whenever I am Elk hunting in Grizz country I carry this in my hands and my bow my back.

When I kill and animal in Grizz country and am skinning it out and quartering it, my shotgun is within arms reach!

Much, much better than nutt’n ….especially since you folks can’t (or very difficult) own a handgun! memtb

In this Stupid Country, you can not carry a hand gun for defense, unless you are a trapper I believe.

Besides when it comes to Grizz or a big black bear or Cougar defense I much prefer my Mossy 88 Defender with 5 rounds of 3" Magnum 00 Buckshot than a revolver.

KB

Stopping a attacking bear.... assuming one is not hunting bears, pre se.

If thats the case, a shotgun would be preferred, Mostly foolproof and accurate enough for close encounters, keeping in mind one is lucky to get off more than one, maybe two shots if a bear attacks.


Hunting bears is completely different and if one gets attacked while hunting bears, then I would be unquestioning their choice of recreation.

Considering the 4 "P's", if one cant get the first one right, the other 3 dont matter, and generally speaking pistols/revolvers are the most difficult to shoot quickly with good placement.

I actually expected that to be your response! A shotgun makes perfect sense for those under handgun restrictions.

However, when doing camp chores, field dressing game, ect., is the shotgun “ALWAYS” at arm’s length. While somewhat unlikely, bear attacks can be almost instantaneous….giving near zero response time to get to the long gun. A handgun can be easily/comfortably carried in a “cross-chest” carry type holster while doing most any chore! Even if downed by the bear…..there is a chance, albeit small, you may be able to access the handgun. That shotgun leaning against a nearby tree….maybe not! memtb

So, your recommendations would be…..do not resist fate, embrace the inevitable that you will be bear scat? Some folks would prefer to attempt survival! memtb

Haha, bears gotta make a living too... read previous post.

John, My apologies….I missed that post! However, I fervently disagree with a long gun for a stopping/defense firearm…..unless it is in hand at all times! Easily done if only hunting/hiking, ect.…..impractical perhaps impossible when doing other outdoor activities! 😉 me

If I Were in your situation in the USA where pistols were permissible, this is what I would have as my sidearm:

A Colt Python 357 Magnum with the heaviest rounds I could get!

KB

😂😂😂! memtb

That is exactly what happened to me, bear comes in rifle against a tree out of reach. 475 Linebaugh which was in a shoulder holster did the trick

If I were fishing or doing things that would make a rifle not handy, I’d pick my 629 with heavy flat nose cast. Otherwise I would stick with a Marlin 336 in 45-70 - same style of bullet, heavy flat nose cast. But! If I were doing something that would not work well with a rifle, I’d be having my 629 on my hip and have my 45-70 close by if possible.

In bear country, I worry about shooting high if charged.

I have a sling on my 500 mossy, short barrel and birds beak, pretty easy to carry. Sometimes carry a mdl 29 in a chest holster, which is what I would carry if rifle hunting.
This all boils down to the situation and awareness, I have yet to have a bear come through camp, I know it can happen.... Most of the times I see bears they are headed the other way...
I may or may not wear a handgun in camp, usually not.

I have had concerns at night when in a tent as a shotgun would be unhandy, handgun is kept close, bear has the advantage...so it goes in the wilds, no guarantees your not going to be scat..

Unless above timberline (Cascades and North Cascades) I always carry a big bore revolver sidearm, usually a SA.

Not as confident with my 629 as am with my SRH with a heavy projectile.

I was watching a video by a British Columbia hunting guide who was addressing that very subject. He explained how that was more usual than not, "shooting high" against a charging bear.

He said he advises hunters who find themselves in that situation, to immediately drop to one knee, putting the hunter's head and rifle at the same level as the charging bear's head and chest and then firing. He claims that is very effective.

FWIW.

L.W.

I have been to a few of Johns seminars years ago. They were very enlightening for sure.

One of the things I came away with is that most of us seem to feel the need to carry a lot more gun than we need, or can handle. Especially when it comes to handguns. A 500, 475, 454 etc. may be comforting, but a body needs a hell of a lot of practice and experience to accurately shoot a gun in that class even with moderate loads. How many can actually say they have that kind of experience?

It has been proven that lesser cartridges can do the job. I have the choice of a number of heavy hitters, but more times than not a 44 special will be on my hip (or chest) loaded with 260 grn Keith style bullets at around 1050 fps. I really do love the truly big bores, but after packing them around, They are most of the time relegated to hunting duty. The Ruger flattop I carry is lighter and a trimmer package, and I can get it in play and make follow up shots just a bit quicker than I can with bigger guns.

Just my 2 cents.

Byron

During several conversations with John, he told me the same…..which he has proven. That said, I’m running my 400’s (cast) from my 460 pretty warm…..to flatten the trajectory a bit at my maximum hunting shot range. I just hope that I don’t need a real quick follow-up shot….though if I do, the target should be closer and a bit easier to hit! 😉 memtb

I've always figured it takes a helluva man to pack one of those things and get it into play in a hurry. Me not being a big man, I prefer something lighter. A 400 grain 45 calibre should give a body all the penetration one needs.

That has been the thinking behind me leaving my .44 mag behind and typically carrying a .45 Super with 255 LFN GCs at 1050 fps. It's just easier to shoot accurately, and those 255s will dig in.

Couple of bear stopping episodes. I am not good for story telling sorry.

I lived remote in AK as a kid. I carried a short 44 mag super Blackhawk shooting 300+ gr at full tilt. I was charged at short range by a black bear for unknown reasons and I shot at point blank range. I was soooo slow out of the holster with that gun, thumbed it back and fired. I missed. I took a hit and went down. He overran me, wheeled around and then took off to my left as if he was scared? I don’t know but he gave me enough time to shoot again.

Second bear with problem. I stalked in the middle of the stream because the bear was in the brush up the bank and around the bend. When I rounded the corner bear was 20 yards. Dark and scrunched up looking back the bear was not at the angle I thought and I raked bear behind the ribs into the gut with a 458win mage 510 gr sp. The bear immediately charged and my second shot broke neck/shoulder into the chest. Again I got hit but bear was carcass .

2 dogs later as well, I would rather have the speed to draw and fire with low to moderate recoil.

Maybe don't smoke (so much) pot. Grin.

As to the op. Well, I have a lot to say, but I'll abbreviate.

I don't think a handgun is an overly heavy thing to carry. They can be downright handy when you're up to your armpits in moose guts and your rifle is not on you.

Only hits count, and not all of those do the job. I haven't seen a lot of big bore sixgun shooters with quick and accurate follow up shots. Especially shots 6 and up from that group are slow This is where I feel cartridges like the 10mm come into play. They allow even us average folk to shoot relatively quickly and relatively accurately while producing decent penetration. Not 460 penetration, but certainly faster than 460 follow up shots, and I think if we're being honest better than 460 accuracy on shots after the first. Add 15 round mags and quick reloads to the equation and things skew more in their favor.

I also kind of think the 458 socom has promise (as would the 450 bushmaster were there better bullets available) . If you can approximate 45/70 performance in a semi auto, with reasonably short barrel length, I see that as a win. Again, add 10 round capacity and removable mags to the equation and all the better. I will likely give this a shot as a camp defense weapon and something for the berry pickers to carry while we're out doing stupid things.

A couple years back, the moose camp across the river had company. They shot a sow and two 2 year old bears that were stealing meat off the meat pole in the middle of the night. I helped them drag the sow back to camp and she had a perfect 12 gauge hole 1" above the eyes and perfectly centered between them in the forehead. She went 20+ yards from where she was shot. That stuck with me.

I wouldn't shy away from hunting a bear with a big bore pistol, but I think they make a rather poor defensive weapon against the same animal. So I guess.... Another borough heard from.

Guy I fished with in AK was a retired Trooper. He used a 458 Win Mag to dispatch bears when he had to. He said it worked well on Grizzly and Browns. It was standing in the corner by his recliner.

The gun you have is criteria 1. Getting it into the fight is 2. Shooting it well enough is 3. Bullet able to penetrate vitals from the front makes all the above work. Without that you’re just making noise.
Pistol criteria starts with 356-358 flat nosed 158+cast at 900+ out of your pistol. I wonder what Phil’s chrono-Ed at?
If I know I am going to have to stop something in the pucker bushes then my 458wm is going with me.
If it’s a lovely day for a stroll along the salmon stream with a picnic basket, then a 629 5” loaded with fn cast 310’s at 1100 will be along for the trip.
Or my old beat up stainless Taurus 66 4” 357 with fn 172’s at 1100.
Since I don’t live or play in big bear country, regrettably, the reason the Taurus is old and beat up is that it is most often available, accurate and capable for the 2 legged predators I am most likely to encounter.

Excellent post!

500 S&W Mag 700 grain hard cast at 1238 fps via LILGUN.

I hear that the recoil is surprisingly mild! 🥴 memtb

Not really LOL

shotgun has always been a great defense gun against man or bear tuff to beat.

I definitely disagree with that.

A ridiculously heavy and long bullet that may penetrate like you think.it will. 500 Nitro's shoot 570 grain bullets

Can you expand on that?

Except every time this subject comes up, guys with a large amount of experience with bears come on with evidence that shotguns really aren’t that great. Buckshot isn’t a reliable performer and only certain slugs can be counted on. They’re less handy than a pistol even when equipped with a pistol grip which almost no one can shoot with any accuracy. A rifle is a far more effective tool.

No way am I relying on shot to get through heavy hair and having energy to get deep and kill fast. Plus it is going to expand very little if any at all, minimal energy transfer, the .33 caliber pellets aren't very heavy.

Yeah, I know there is 000 which probably works fine as long as everything goes smooth but if it were going smooth you wouldn't be in the situation to defend yourself.

At least with a large caliber rifle you can break bones that bullet is capable of breaking several in one shot.

Never been in bear country but I can see something in .33 or larger and an 18-20" barrel being mighty handy.

I'm not an expert on this, but, if I was going with a longarm for bear defense, I would, for example, pick my .308 AR10 over a 12-gauge every time. I've shot deer with both 12-gauge slugs and 168-gr lead bullets, and in those limited instances, I found that each .308 round did more damage. And, with the AR10, the .308 recoils a lot less, and accurate follow-up shots would be way faster.


When I first went to hunt in AK, I ignored some advice not to bother to bring a handgun, and I personally am glad I did. I just didn't find it practical to have my rifle (or a shotgun, if I had had one) in the ready position at all times when doing various things, including skinning animals; relieving myself at camp; etc. ...

On my first AK hunt, I carried my FA .454 with 360gr HC rounds with a MV near 1,800 fps.



That may be a good option, but, on my second trip, I felt more confident with my 10mm G20 with a 6" bbl (didn't have my G40 yet) with 200gr HC bullets going about 1,315 fps. I know that may seem crazy to some, but I just can get my first shot off quicker with that and I can fire it accurately at around three-rounds per second for however many seconds the bear, or God, gives me, which I can't (myself) do with the .454.

FWIW, this bear jumped forward about 15 feet when hit by my .375 Wby with a 300gr NP before then dying instantly.



That round blew up much of his insides before exiting. So, I suppose, no matter what you hit them with, they can still release a lot of energy after being hit with just about anything.

A rather large inland grizzly was long ago bonked with a couple shots to the bean with a 22 long.

I prefer big bore handguns unless given the rifle option.
Those of you that choose the 454, 460 or maybe the 500 S&W(guessing here as I am not familiar with that one) might want to consider lower pressure loads. One shot out of a 454 in a shoot now situation and I am deaf above 6K hz. There is a CONSTANT chorus of crickets in my ears as well. Running a heavier bullet at slower vels and lower pressure will save your hearing. I don't need to read from the crowd that says I would rather be alive and deaf than... . While that is true, being alive and not deaf, is always better. Talk (yell) to a cop who had to discharge his 357 inside of a car, to find out that I am not kidding.
I consider my 475 Linebaugh at 1250 fps as good as it gets. Because I don't practice with a single action much, I usually carry a Redhawk 45 Colt at 1250 fps. I have carried a Dan Wesson 44 mag at 1250 fps a good bit. Since I lost most of my hearing the 44 mag is out - I don't want to loose any more. It is a pressure thing that makes the bark sharp and does the damage. Another one not mentioned here, but will take your hearing is a 357 Max.
Shoot straight and HEAR to tell about it!!

I have been in bear country and have taken a few, with a rifle, and mostly because they were in the wrong spot at the wrong time.

If I am hunting I am carrying a rifle and a hand cannon of some sort, typically mdl 29 in a chest rig. If I am on shore fishing walking etc, I would be carrying a pistol and possibly a shotgun if I am particularly concerned about bears. Usally I am not.

Regarding shotgun vs pistol, I would contend the shotgun is more effective, just considering shot placement, in other words I would prefer some double ought hit the bear, rather than a miss with a handgun, which is often likely, bear attacks are fast and I would consider someone lucky if they got off two shots before the bear was on em, they can be seriously sneaky bastards...

Typically alternate between slugs and double ought.

So, safe to say you have never been charged by a bear, as you have never been in bear country, yet somehow feel qualified to dispense advice?

Never said it was advice. Said if I were in bear country.

A lot of things I would do if I were I certain areas but doesn't make me any kind of expert or giver of any advice. Merely things that I would be comfortable with.

LOL, man that's funny!

KB

AR 10 is heavy, maybe heavier than a pump shotgun... regardless, follow up shots on bear attacks are usally wishful thinking, one might get another opportunity to hit some fur, but I wouldn't call it a follow up shot.

I think a 10mm is a great option, if I didn't already have a 44, that's would be my choice

On my first trip to AK on an outfitted hunt, one of the pilots that flew us was a member of the "bear bait" club. His story happened while he was working as a bear guard for a surveyor crew and he carried a shotgun as his primary weapon of choice. A call came in that one of the surveyors had found what was described as a wolf den. As the guy working as bear guard approached the "wolf" den, momma bear came out and he got one shot off before she had him pinned face down. Chewed on him a bit and bounced up and down on him a bit, then she wondered off about 100 yards and died.

So, if a guy only has time to get one shot off, better make it count.

Copy THAT!

Especially as I find plenty of weed in the mountains, but don't smoke it.

Doesn't take much for Canadians to get an erection.

There is a reason a 12 gauge slug gun is popular with bear guides

Sure, besides a 600 gr Brenneke, lack of penetration with common slugs and buckshot. Shoot a plain Foster slug out and you can split one even in a deer. In Alaska you always run into some dip$hit that tells you about alternating slugs and buckshot for bears as if it was some sort of “formula” for success. Anything low recoiling and penetrative would work. If it was pumps and levers I’d rather have a 44 lever 250 at 1100-1200 fps. Or even a bolt 308 over a 12 gauge. With bears of course it’s a choose your own adventure, people have both succeeded and failed in all circumstances… hiding, fighting back, this gun and that.

Not sure which guides you’re talking about but I guess that would fall into the category of what a PH in Africa or an Elk guide in Idaho would know about rifle cartridges and projectiles… not much. Cept maybe Phil and a few others.
You can certainly use a 12 gauge but it’s probably one of the $hittiest ways of getting something done with the given recoil.

My AR10 is about a pound lighter than most--a DPMS GII Hunter.

Phil Shoemaker killed a brown bear boar by emptying an entire 9mm into the bear. I'm not a personal expert, but it seems like follow-up shots are possible in some instances.

That was one well known story regarding a experienced guide, not a typical example, keep trying though

Ever heard of hardcast....


Lol

What’s the point of this?

Obviously you don't get it... think hard, take a deep breath & watch it again, then think some more.
Dont be that dipstick in ideho that thinks Alaskans that use slugs/double ought are dip schits.

No. I'm not trying anything. I've now heard from the "Garden Island" man. Your opinion is the gold standard. I'm a Marine War Veteran. I completely defer to you as to whether I, or anyone else, other than a particular guide, can fire a semi-auto rifle or handgun rapidly at a target under pressure when their life is threatened. Thank you for your wisdom!!!! Just to confirm my absolute faith in your complete knowledge of all things bear related, what is your basis for that? I mean, just to be sure, which I mostly am. I don't doubt your omnipotence in all things. I just want to reinforce it so that I can tell all I know with credibility about the bear-defense prophet and all of his knowledge about how what cannot be done, including firing a second round into a bear about 1/5th of a second after the first shot. I adore your knowledge and unbelievable style in your advocacy thereof.

Yeah I was expecting the 45-70 to do much better than it did

I would have to agree. Add in there heavier weight bullets tend to shoot higher.

Yep I don’t mind saying so at all… I don’t get it.
Having owned 45-70s, 458s, 416s, 500 NE 3” and A-SQ, 375s and cast my own. Again I am not sure what you are pointing out? A soft swaged 12 ga lead slug breaking a cinder block? Big whoop. A hard cast 45-70 load shot at no man’s land velocity for a hard cast breaking a cinder block? Big whoop. Incidentally, I’d take the 45-70 over the 12 ga any day but that sure as hell wouldn’t be my load.
So tell me again because I don’t connect the dots nonsense videos of brick and frying pan shooting videos. What got you so excited and verified whatever stance you have on this?

Sorry dude, although it is much appreciated, I cant stick with your long winded admiration and didn't finish your tirade.

The point is a 9mm in the hands of a experienced guide is usefull. Do you think that would be his first choice? Do you think multiple shots during a bear attack is typical? Do you think?

What's your personal experience in bear killing or hunting was one of my points. I never above advocated a 9mm. Yeah, I think if you have a good semi-auto and some competence, you can fire a second shot about 1/5th of a second after the first at the same target. What is your personal knowledge that disputes that? What experience do you have on this? Simple question.

Are you daft? Or just wish to as argue? Giving you the benefit and assume that arguing on the internet fulfills some need you have.
Go back and read what has been said, slowly. Its quite simple.

"'This hunter was walking through some downed timber when he was attacked by a bear at a very close range,' says Morgan Jacobsen, Information and Education Program manager for Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks, Region 3. But, like in last week’s attacks, the hunter was prepared. 'During the attack, he shot at the bear several times with a pistol,' Jacobsen says. 'The bear subsequently left.' ..." https://www.kxlf.com/news/fourth-hu...gravelly-mountains-within-about-one-week

I covered this earlier, if yer going to interject, please read the thread.

Thats not a bear attack, that's a thwarted bear attack. Two completely different things. If you have time, you have options... bear attacks leave few options. People have in their head how these things play out, problem is bears have their own playbook.

No, you didn't. You said that bear go the other way from you, but you didn't identify any experiences with bear defense. Prove me wrong.

For criss sakes, are you from idehoe as well?

Late to the game.
Cant read.
Love to argue.

Please answer, rather than deflect. What experience do you have, Oracle?

Yes, the bears now run from me, fughing hilarious.
Keep in mind, bear hunting and bear attacks are two completely different activities.

Lmao johnn is a slugs and buckshot alternating guy. Good grief this is rich . Glad I went back to read.

So, johnn, you won't explain your experiences with bear defense or even bear killing. But I do trust your views about how everyone else is wrong.

I called it. Surprised it took 7 pages to get there, usually happens sooner. I too am curious about the experience that lead to this idea sprouting up again.

When johhn was told to "cease fire" he signals and says: "Hi MOM!"

Phil came to visit me and take some pictures of a rather famous rifle I now own. He brought pictures of the bear and told me the story. The bear looked like it had been hit with a belt fed weapon. If I remember correctly he and a client were going to do some fishing in an area where bear not expected to be. He was forced to shoot it to protect the client. He brought his normal back up gun to show me. It was a 458 so I am pretty sure the pistol would not be his first choice but it was what he had at the time.

It’s my fault! 😁 Observing bear stopping related topics on another forum with similar comments made me remember the fairly extensive testing that John Linebaugh did with various handguns and popular big bore African rifles.

Many people have zero faith in handguns as a stopping cartridge for bears. The test shows some cartridges/bullets to be superior, at least in penetration, to some of the proven African big bore rifles. Yet, with the texts conclusions, people still think that handguns with proper loads are inferior.

Excluding the “shotgun crowd” ….it strikes me as peculiar that some chose the rifle over the properly chambered/loaded handgun. The handgun, is easier to keep on your body at all times, easier to put into use in tight quarters (while getting a “bear hug”), and can likely get a second shot off faster than a bolt gun, or about the same timeframe as a lever gun.

Some downplay the handgun as being less accurate than the rifle! If one is actually being attacked by a bear, most anyone should be able to get at least one shot placed pretty accurately, as the distance will be measured in a few feet …. Not 20 plus yards, where the accuracy benefits lean toward the rifle! JMO. memtb

But nobody with a brain knows they’re going into a fight and chooses a handgun over a rifle. A handgun is a weapon of convenience and compromise. Unless my hands are going to be full with an activity like dipnetting or berry picking, I’m taking a rifle.

I vote this.

I can say without question, that even at a few feet with my heart pumping out of my chest, I can shoot a long gun better than a handgun and control it better to get another somewhat accurate shot off. BTDT.

To the thread in general, I think it is also important to state that people who work in and around bears, to include ADFG, USFWS and even a lot of local LEOs in Kodiak and such carry shotguns with slugs for bear defense. Why? Maybe it is cost or ease of use for somewhat inexperienced personal. Maybe, it is proven effective. I dunno but that is what all field going personnel that I have crossed paths with in the interior west and Alaska are issued by their agency for bear defense, myself included.

I mean..... They also put congress in charge of deciding if we need term limits. I don't know that I can debate govtard actions at the same time as bear defense. One contentious topic at a time!

Breaking News. High level White House official weighs in!

In SE AK where I was. F&G had shotguns. When asked they said they weren’t buying them rifles. They used rubber bullets and one guy had some sort of bird bombs. They only visits and a ton of bears and bear issues were solved by locals. Forest service kids that did work had a 375. They were from a Fed program. They intentionally left it behind. One night they came to our house all worked up and said one of the boys did not return. They wanted me and a the store manager to go look for him at night. We said no and if he didn’t show up by noon we would take a look.

To some degree, I think that is due to the simplicity of a slide action vs working a bolt.

The Forest service or some agency in AK had more pre64 375s than anyone else I ever saw. They’d bring them in by the dozen for cleanings once a year when I was at the shop.

They were all cut down, some 20” some 18” IIRC. Most looking like it had been done by hacksaw and file. They were then fitted with a Williams front ramp, Millet sight blade on most, and either a Williams WGOS rear buckhorn or a Williams peep, most had the peep. 90 percent of them were in Ramline injection molded stocks.

They did have a few push feed 375s and 338s that had been treated in a similar fashion with regard to sights and stocks.

I was impressed that some gooberment agency not known for its great decision making had such an arsenal of serious rifles. If we found one needing a part they had some that were in rougher shape or otherwise out of service that we could scavenge off of. No idea what kind of ammo they fed them.

Big enough to be number 1 in B&C for quite a long time big?

That is absolute fact….but is an anomaly! I would venture to suggest that there would be a lot of Inuit hunters that wish they were carrying something with a bit more punch than they had at the time they were killed by a bear! Of course, getting their comments after the fact is difficult! 😉 memtb

T Inman;
Good morning to you my friend, I trust you're seeing the sun as we are down here - which is rare for us in winter - and you're well on this second Friday of the second month.

As far as I know here in BC shotguns were issued to CO's and RCMP at least. The CO's now have an AR10 .308 but still might have a shotgun for stuff like the Lightfield Smurf Blue plastic dowels? Again I'm not sure sorry.

My gut feel on why they've issued shotguns is a combination of fairly low initial cost, relative ease of training, availability of less than lethal options and possibly the shorter distance the projectile will travel. The CO's will deal with a whole bunch of problem bears in relatively populated areas.

That said T - years ago when I went down the rabbit hole testing different slugs, I corresponded with a chap up in Churchill, MB who was a bear herder. Now who he herded bears for has either vanished from my memory or he never said, but as you know Churchill had and still has issues with the occasional grizzly but the problem bears were traditionally polar bears.

It was somewhere up there where a couple polar/grizzly hybrids have been shot.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...olar-bear-hybrid-killed-canada/84816934/

Anyways this chap who went by the handle "Boomer" and had some really, REALLY close photos of bears, was a firm believer in Brenneke slugs. He and a couple other posters opined that the Canadian loaded Challenger slug shells which use the Italian made Guilandi slugs were likely on par with the Brenneke as far as penetration. The posters who seemed to be the most experienced with actually shooting something with slugs were very adamant that all slugs were not created equally.

That all taken into account, an Alaska 'Fire poster here Klikitarik reported shooting a grizzly with Brenneke slugs and he wasn't that impressed at all so there is that.

As a brief aside on the Lightfield Smurf slugs, I can report that one was fired in if not anger then at least in a general state of ill will towards this idiot cinnamon we had hanging around the neighborhood and I was able to hit it at about 60yds just with a Truglo fiber optic bead. The bear didn't seem to like it but I'd say that was about the extent of it's effective range.

The neighbor who I was hazing the bear with, reported that when he'd hit a different bear last spring with one - at a distance measured in feet - that the bear was able to perform a gymnastic routine which would have resulted in at least a podium placement at the Olympics.

Anyways T, just a few random thoughts on your posts, some of which might be useful and some just marginal at best.

Have a great weekend my friend.

Dwayne

Haven't shot any bears but have run a lot of loads through big bore pistols. More full power loads than was good for me. I'll still pick an 06 with 200 or 220 npt's for carry power. Was and is good enough for Phil S will be good enough for me. Confidence based on your competence with the 06 will carry the day...mb

My same experience with big bore hand cannons and you cant go wrong with a ought-six, if one is going to carry a large bore handgun, I would recommend plenty of practice.

Dwayne, You have to be the most respectful guy on the fire, my hats off to you sir for your well spoken replies.

I have zero doubt sho
Good thoughts Dwayne...as per your usual.
I suspect that the reason a lot of agencies issue shotguns for bear defense are for those reasons you state and more, but I also think that if they weren't effective at all then the story would be different. What a person is comfortable with is likely "best", but shotguns with quality slugs likely have a one size "sorta fits all" kind of thing going.

You have yourself a great weekend. Catch some of those perch.

T;
Thanks for the very kind reply again sir, you're consistently patient with this semi-old Canuck who reads and I realize also writes too much at times.

Your statement about shotguns being a "one size fits all" and work reasonably well most times makes sense to me for sure.

Because we're not trusted with sidearms in the back country in Canada, I've either used a lever rifle or pump shotgun for my personal meat packing or camping arm over the years. I started with a bit of a modified pump gun that I bought when I was maybe 13 or 14, so we go way, way back, then switched to a 94 and then went back to a 14" barreled pump gun which is at least a pound lighter than my old Lakefield Mossberg. We can run short barreled long arms up here - so far - as long as the overall length is 26.5" and it's not a semi-auto. If it's an auto loader it has to have an 18.5" barrel because....

I'll not even begin to attempt to explain the reasoning behind any of our firearm laws, suffice it to say T, the law makers either have armed guards and have never seen a bear other than on a screen most likely.

Should you or anyone be so inclined for some decidedly not "light reading" I've got a trio of books that were written by a chap who moved to Bella Coola country from the US and became BC's bear attack expert. Now for awhile he taught one of the first if not the very first bear course which WorkSafeBC required for certain jobs or job areas.

So for sure he had experience, but was also selling his course and all that - still T - it's interesting reading for anyone who lives, works and recreates in bear country as we both do.

https://www.abebooks.com/9780969809906/Bear-Encounter-Survival-Guide-Shelton-0969809905/plp

https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/bear-attacks-the-deadly-truth/

https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/bear-attacks-myth-reality/author/shelton-james/

For sure as I've noted before when I link books, I'm not Mr. Bezos' biggest fan, so provide Abebooks links. Even here in the BC sticks I've had really good service and shipping times from them.

Thanks again for the pleasant exchange, I usually learn something from you and I appreciate that.

Since our last exchange I've also been sent yet another possible location to try for perch at a lake that isn't intentionally being winter killed, so it's an embarrassment of riches truly.

All the best to you this weekend.

Dwayne

johnn;
Good evening to you sir, I hope the end of the second week of the second month finds you well.

Thanks very much for the kind words sir, I appreciate you taking the time.

Please know I'll do my best in future posts to deserve them.

All the best to you this weekend.

Dwayne

All this dude and his girlfriend proved was a cast iron skillet won’t stop a bear from eating you.

🦫

Bearscat Treadwell proved more than that , he performed at the cost of his life just how stupid his bear knowledge was and all the crap he promoted.

Cultural appropriation.

For those who question the use of a pistol for defense against bears, here is something to ponder:

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/06/handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attacks-104-cases-97-effective/

Just for an idea of size. 22lr, 9mm, no thanks.

Can't argue with the facts

I am not sure how much faith I'd put into that. Several of the examples included situations that aren't conducive to what I would think a normal 'attack' would consist of, nor what I'd consider a "success" in stopping an attack.

On the third case they describe, a guide killed a black bear (which in a quote was referred to as both a sow and a boar) with a .22 LR after shooting it 20+ times and dogs fighting it (as opposed to it actually attacking the person).

The fourth example involves a black bear eating a dead woman and they shoot it off her body. Again not what I'd refer to as an 'attack', at least not on the part of the shooter. That same entry states: "The animal was shot and killed", but also that "Michael was very careful *not* to hit the bear, for fear of enraging it."

The fifth example (and the "one" failure) involved a polar bear, again shot with a .22 LR at 15 feet. The article states: "On examination, three shots to the head were discovered, none of them piercing the cranium", so the survivors examined a live bears head??? This isn't to mention that despite the article stating "We found one failure out of 37 documented cases", it describes a second situation in that same example with "two tourists defended themselves with a .22 calibre pistol which proved ineffective. One man was killed, the other injured. Police later shot the bear."....that sounds like at least 2 failures to me.

It was poorly written on several fronts, which makes me suspect of it overall. I didn't even bother reading it further as the first several examples were full of holes, so to speak.

I found the same things and have the same issues that you state. There wasn’t a lot of bear killing going on until the firearm bullet diameter and horsepower substantially increased, even when larger, more powerful handguns were used …. poor bullet design, weight for caliber, ect. for bear stopping should be noted! memtb

I think the point SBTCO was making was that he feels handguns are effective in deterring attacks, and that people can make hits with them under pressure. I am not knocking the article because the bears weren't always killed when shot, especially with a .22 LR. I am 100% a .223 Rem guy for deer but I see attacking bears as a different situation.

My point was that the article was terribly written and wasn't always about 'attacks', nor was it edited for clarity or quality control, so I really have to wonder what else it got wrong or didn't mention???

Had a friend many years ago drop a sow on skilak lake in AK with a glock 10mm. Took the whole mag.

I'll take a rifle

Many years ago, I dropped a sow with a 338WM. Took the whole mag.

Follow me for more Bear Stopping advice...

That's why I take bears as seriously as a heart attack!

Do you know if that poor guy survived?

I would rather pass than to live without a face or eyesight. Geezeeeeeeee.........

These are my choice, will stop any bear from ruining your day or even worse your life.

KB

What bullet, what shot placement, how many rds. did the magazine hold

Bullet used, shot placement, etc.

The 338WM was quite new then and ammo I had was Winchester 200 gr Power Points.
The bear stood up and looked over the willows at me at about 75 yards. I shot her right below the eye and she dropped into the willows.
thinking I had a dead bear, I walked into the willows and had a one-eyed grizzly coming after me. Four more shots in front shoulder area
finally got her down.

Dang! That would get a fellow's attention. Glad you made it. Bullet penetration wasn't so great?

Guy

In a few months taking my 10 y/o daughter brown bear hunting. She has first poke with dad backing her up. The logistics of dealing with a bear, most likely in the dark with a 10 y/o with lots of other bears around is stressing me out a little. Will have 44 mag on me when skinning. The thought of things going sideways is definitely on my mind.

Probably will bring her back to the boat and deal with the skinning solo.

Good times.

Do it Calvin! My son killed his first one at age 10 and used his 9.3x62 with 250gr Accubonds at 2150, basically a replication of the .35 Winchester. Low recoil and plenty of killing power. We had his boar at 40 yards for over ten minutes waiting for it to turn broadside. I was really watching him for nervousness, thinking things might go downhill given how long we were waiting for it to turn. At one point he whispered "Dad, do you want me to just rake him?" and I knew he was doing just fine with not losing his mind. He shot it perfectly, including twice on the run after the first shot. I gave it one round, in retrospect mostly because that was the wife-approved thing to do.

I think your concerns about other bears causing a problem while you're skinning are an issue in the fall, but not so much in the spring. Having skinned a decent number of bears at both times of the year, I've had to fend off various ones in the fall, but never in the spring. What gun is she using? I think a .308 and a good 150gr bullet would be plenty to let the air out of one, as she's not looking to stop a bear, just kill one.

Interesting. I have never hunted there in the Spring. So, I have no experience, but I would have thought the opposite.

Why do you think they're more-aggressive in the Fall? I thought that they would have been more-aggressive in the Spring, just because, I think, they're generally hungrier then.

https://www.adn.com/features/articl...r-attack/2012/09/14/?outputType=amp-type

... Marlin 1895GS and max hand load with Woodleigh 405 grain Weldcore bullet or factory "yellow box" Buffalo Bore 430 grain FN hardcast lead bullet ... if the bear is still standing after the smoke clears the bear was probably a "Smokey The Bear" billboard

As they work to find calories before going into hibernation brown bears become increasingly bold, pushy, and aggressive. In my experience in southeast, September through November are the worst months for aggressive bears because hunger drives them to takes risks or behave in ways they don't at more food-rich times of the year such as spring grass or summer salmon runs.

Yep.


Saw a heifer squatting wearing a big black cloak a mile from the trailhead. Good thing no one was hunting...

... YASS SIR ... I agree ... a 223 is definitely enuf gun for brown bears

Not really sure yet on gun yet. She has her 6.5 127 lrx but might go a little heavier with milder load 7saum/160AB. Haven't decided yet. Good to know about fall versus spring. Going to the S end of Kootznoowoo. Not really looking forward to messing with a bunch of guides but will stand my ground with them.

Fantastic job on the bear btw. I think my daughter is 80lbs soaking wet, so a bigger rifle probably wouldn't go so well.

Short stock, thick pad, heavy jacket.

"TKO value" = Fudd lore

Harold Johnson of Cooper Landing, AK hit upon the right medicine in the early 1950s.
A 400 gr FP out of a Model 71 or 1886 Winchester. Lever actions are faster in action than bolt guns,
and will hold as many cartridges. A 450 Alaskan can push that 400 gr bullet to 1985 FPS with a 24 in barrel-
that is not max -so 2nd and third shots come fast. Johnson had close calls on bears with a 30-06, so used his gun shop: Johnson's Kenai Rifles-to come up with an answer: 450/50 Alaskans

Not just AK-but the lower 48: the WY guide who was ambushed by a sow grizzly and large cub
after taking over an elk kill. About 4 years ago.
Both hunter and guide were mauled, guide killed-leaving wife and kids. One Glock between them, but
badly handled by bow hunter.
BOTH should have had handguns. Widow would agree.

Just like the inner big city...you never know when a bear who has just been in a fight
will come around the corner. A 22 or .410 may eventually kill the bear, but not within your
ER or last visit/ICU time...lifetime.

I've read this whole thread to this point and I'm not about to argue with anyone with experience. And I'm not going back to quote anyone, but at age 87 I'm first and last a black bear hunter since 1989 when I shot my first one over bait using an outfitter in the northeast of our province. I owned a .338 Win Mag but chose to purchase a classic Marlin in .45-70 for that hunt. I didn't shoot a bear that year but did the next. And, in hindsight from many more hunts, the load was perfect even though the bulet was a bit too soft - a Speer 400gr FP at 1865 fps. Range was 100 yds and poi was just behind the right shoulder. The trophy quality bear flipped over backwards and ran full out for ten yards into some alders where he landed on his back with all four paws pointed heavenward. I stood in the treestand and gave another between neck and shoulder that stopped his flaining the air. I was absolutely alone during the process until darkness when the guide and two helpers arrived in a pickup. Then the field dressing, and it took all four of use to load it into the back of the pickup. The Speer bullet expanded to 1" and retained 90.5% of original mass. Not sure which of the two Speers was caught in the offside armpit. The other must have come out when gutted. Bullet impact was about 1550 fps.

In the interim, I've killed bears with a variety of cartridges. Fast forward to 2011 - 2015. I killed four black bears on the same private property bordering a Provincial Wildlands Park. This was an old abandoned farm where I and a couple of partners had privileges to hunt bear - and there were lots of them. During my last hunt there in 2015, I identified on my trail cam eleven distinct bears... two were sows with cubs. Three of the bears I shot over that period were like triplets all six- footers, the other was much smaller that had been wounded by a young, inexperienced friend and partner.

But the point I want to make is this: Three where shot with my 9.3 x 62, including the cripple, wounded by my young friend. I chased it down, shot it with a 286gr Hornady SP-RP going away. MV was +2400. It was a going away shot that entered behind the short ribs, took out three vertabra and make exit somewhere into the wilderness. I killed two others over bait using hot loads from the 9.3 x 62, a 286 Partition at +2600 fps under the chin into the heart, and that 6' went twenty yards and then over an escarpment. It wasn't "fun" getting it outta there! That bullet was found in skinning - it fell from the right side flank, retained 74% eight with some of its "pettals" pointing forward - it had "flipped" and was going backwards when stopped by the hide!

The last bear, on that property was also killed (like the one shot by the 286 Partition) by a single shot from the 9.3 x 62, this time using the 250gr AB at ~ 2700 (high back hit that took out heart and some lung material, making exit between left front leg and chest. The blood trail could be followed by a blind person! Yet it went 20 yards back into the thick brush it had emerged from.

But the first bear I killed with a single shot on that property in 2011, I was using a single-shot .45-70. These kills were over four years but all within a 300yd circle. They were all in uncut grass about 30" deep. But that first one was shot exactly at the same distance and profile as the one shot with the 286 NP. Both under the chin because that's all I could see as both were facing me - one at 68 yds and the other at 70 yards. But the real difference was :THE 465gr FT HARDCAST from the .45-70 FLATTENED the bear on the spot without a CNS hit! It let the muzzle at 1900 fps and impact was over 1700 fps!

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE no matter how we may want to describe those differences or measure them!!!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Our family homestead, and base camp of our exclusive hunting areas ,is centrally located it what AK F&G considers one of the densest populations of Brown bears in the world. And have been guiding brown bear hunters, and killing wounded bears for 43 years, I will say that NO handgun makes an good weapon for stopping wounded bears !

I have zero experience hunting bears of any type. I will say that the two grizzly bears I saw in the San Diego zoo a few years ago intimidated the crap out of me. Made it seem that no gun I had was big enough. Granted I have hunted SA with a .458 Lott and .35 Whelen, but it was something about the bears that messed with my head.

What firearm do you carry when guiding?

I can say I have stopped 2 grizzlies by shooting them both in the head. I stopped them from living, but stopping a bear from living and stopping a bear from killing is 2 different things…

Thank you Phil!

That needed saying.

my friend who lived in Alaska for 20 some years and was a frontline Viet Nam wounded vet who was with the rock soldiers in Nam has killed a few big bears other things because he had too . he said he preferred shooting bears and other things farther away anymore with his 338 .

A business associate had a daughter that had a job with the Alaska DNR doing bear research field work. He told me that they went out in teams and said that they carried 12 gauge shotguns with the first round loaded with fine bird shot and slugs in the magazine. The thinking was that near nothing was going to be decisive in stopping a bear charge, but if they could blind and disorient the bear with bird shot, they could kill it with the slugs.

I’ve watched those warden shows on TV and shotguns with slugs seem to be the weapon of choice there too for putting down a bad bear.

Those poor DNR people were idiots. I'm glad his daughter survived her time around them. Things like .375s, .416s, .458s, and so on have been decisively stopping bear charges for a very long time.

Absolutely no bear expurt here! In my 50 plus years all over the US and Canada hunting I've only once, thankfully, had a very, very, close black bear encounter! And that was up in the NW corner of Saskatchewan on a moose hunt. A lot of things worked in my favor that day allowing me to to walk away from a very bad situation. And when people say it happens fast, it doesn't, it happens even faster than fast! Like I said, a lot of things worked out in my favor and not the bears favor. I'm also fully aware that you have no idea how you'll react or what you'll do until it happens. No idea at all, I don't care what you think or say. On that day, it worked out for me, on another day, it might work out for the bear! This happened years ago and is still very "sharp" in my mind. If I hadn't been facing the direction I was facing, or wasn't at the ready like I was because my guide kept telling me to be ready that it was a big bull moose we were closing in on, who knows what the outcome could have been. As a side note, after the dust settled from the bear incident, we saw the bull moose, across a lake, and he was indeed a shooter, but I never got close enough for a shot at him.

I've bear hunted more than once, mostly bowhunting up in Northern Minnesota. The incident above is absolutely nothing like bear hunting!

I agree, but isn't the object of having a good, large caliber handgun on and handy, to have immediate access to it while cleaning/dressing out large game. When one's rifle is leaning against a rock, bush, or tree, and not immediately available??

I've killed only two Black bears -- both with my .280 Remington -- and have only seen one Grizzly in Glacier Park and another in the L.A. Zoo. But when I've hunted elk in Grizzly country, I carried my .338 Win. Mag., and my S&W .41 Mag. When my partner and I were gutting, quartering, and packing an elk in Grizzly country, the rifles were usually leaning against a rock or tree... but our handguns were always on us.

Fortunately, never had to kill a Grizzly who was wounded or wanted our meat.

Just my thoughts.

L.W.

"Those poor DNR people were idiots" because the carried shotguns? Let's not get ahead of ourselves! Shotguns are cheap (tax payer $s here) and are much easier to shoot with accuracy than a heavy bolt action in 375 or 458. The BA requires much more skill and cool nerve to use as a defensive rifle and most DNR folks are not trained for such skills, it's more of a matter of economy of scale, what works best for most people.

I'm a retired electrician, I did a lot of work at the Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago and also the Brookfield Zoo. Every animal house has a Homak gun safe in it with what they deem the appropriate threat response firearm, but only the head zoo keeper in each house has the keys to said safe. In the Polar Bear house there's a 375H&H, in the hooved animal house (very large exotic buffalo) there's an 870 12 gauge slug gun. I was there long enough to get to know the head zoo keepers in each house. They were required to "qualify" with each firearm but in talking to them, none of them knew where to shoot the animal to stop it. I also happened to be a range officer at the range where they qualify. All I'll say is the safest place to be when they shoot is in front of them! I can't I imagine them touching off a 373H&H in that densely populated area.

Interestingly, in the Polar Bear house, there's a taped off section on the floor surrounding the door they open to feed the bear in bright yellow tape. I asked the significance of the tape as it was about 10 feet away from the door on the 3 sides. I was told that's how far they can reach! I'm sure a little extra was added for more safety, but it impressed me and thankfully, I didn't have a lot of work in that area of the house.

Just some facts I found interesting for methods in a very populated area.

I disagree and this article of handguns being 97% effective against bear attacks tends to prove my point

https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/d...97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/

They're idiots for using birdshot as a defensive round. Actual experience has taught me that shotguns as a bear defense weapon are compromise weapons. I've killed brown bears trying to kill me. I've spoken to multiple people who've been mauled. I've dealt with a fatal mauling. I've cleaned up the messes of multiple brown bears wounded by slugs. Muscle memory and training are definite considerations, but the overriding consideration should be effectiveness. Shotguns have only one suitable loading that I know of: The 3" magnum Brenneke loading (and that's no .375 I can tell you!) That means there's lots of sub par loadings out there that the uninformed trust their lives to. Bolt actions are easy to use effectively, one need only take the time to learn.

In all of hunting and gun lore, nothing stirs dudes' the hearts like the idea of "bear stopping", "bear charge" or "bear gun". It's an idea that drips with excitement. The promise of danger and the manful concept of being greatly tested and prevailing are joined to the fact of actual threat for people out roaming where dangerous animals live. Consequently the topic gets alot of talk. But much like 14 year old boys discussing sex, most of it is fantasy and imagination promulgated by people with no actual experience, bloviating as though their opinions are the real deal. Having sorted some stuff out and gained some experience I can tell you a couple things. First, if you take the time to gain proficiency with an effective weapon, and do plenty of if-then thinking you'll likely prevail. This means you know how to use a proper firearm and can keep your head with things go sideways. Secondly, you don't get the fight you want, you get the fight you get, and sometimes stuff goes bad in spite of your best efforts, so carry the tools you need in that case. I hear lots of talk about guns, but little to none about tourniquets, blood stoppers, pressure bandages, and communication devices. We would all agree that being able defend yourself and others is a basic skill of manhood. In this case, lets make sure that we properly prepare and equip ourselves to do so.

Just to add to this: the majority of slugs on the market are soft lead and penetrate about the same or worse than a 9mm bonded JHP from a pistol. I've shot a lot of slugs into auto bodies/auto glass and shot a lot of deer with slugs and they are great for deer or two-legged critters but that's about it.

Untrained DNR interns would be better off with a shotgun than a hand cannon or a big bore rifle. Some may have real training, most would be rudimentary. When dealing with bears, I think the #1 defense is to pay attention to the situation. Usually they have their heads down absorbed in whatever.

Pretty good example of that here https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/201...im-of-fatal-interior-black-bear-mauling/

Not sure any firearm would have changed the outcome.

Not really, the forest service has been equipping seasonal college kid types with .375s for years around here.

Bullet placement and penetration (a result of its shape and construction) are the primary and irreplaceable components required to quickly stop a serious bear charge.
And even if you are highly familiar and competent with your weapon of choice, ESPECIALLY A HANDGUN!, your fine motor control skills will rapidly deteriorate, as will your ability to hit a small, rapidly moving target

Why does it seem to be commonly assumed that any old Joe or Jane can’t miss with a shotgun?

When I did maintenance on FS guns like I mentioned above they would occasionally bring in a shotgun along with the 375s.

The only ones I remember were 18” Mossberg pumps with either a bead or a peep and blade setup.

I fail to see why I could make a hit any faster with the same sighting arrangement on both guns just because one is a shotgun.

I also know from experience that a synthetic stocked 18” barrel shotgun kicks like dammit with 3” slugs, I’d say close to if not worse than a 375.

I stand by my recommendation for a rifle for serious use.

Why does everyone assume they are putting slugs in their shotgun?

Because buckshot sucks at any range where it has spread enough to provide any advantage in making hits.

I’ve dealt with bears shot with buckshot. It sucks terminally.

I knew a guy when I lived in Alaska that had a close up encounter with an inland grizzly. He was eating supper in his camp where he was panning for gold. He looked up and the bear was just a few yards away walking at him. He dumped six rounds of 357 magnum into the bear. Luckily for him he said the bear just turned and went into the trees. He also left the area immediately. Lucky man. Edk

It might suck, it still a hit compared to miss from a 458 or whatever caliber is your favorite......and buckshot doesn't spread much at 10 yds......

There is a lot of what-ifs and maybes, and coulda dones in this thread.... and adamant opinions about the best solution, bottom line is use whatever you are comfortable with an fits your scenario.
There really is no one size/solution fits all for everyone.

Biggest thing is pay attention when in bear country.......!

I know an outfitter who considered 00 buckshot as less lethal bear control on grizzlies hanging around the camp.

After many years it caught up with him and one died from a pellet getting between ribs but those guys shot a lot of grizzlies with buckshot to chase them out of camp for many years before one died in camp.

A proper fitting rifle in about caliber like 30-06 and a decent bullet would make a lot more sense to me than any shotgun.

While I don't have grizzlies, I do have far too many bears around our cabin.

I tend to stick with a 12 gauge with buckshot, slug, buckshot, slug, slug slug.

My reasoning, especially in summer with thick vegetation, I would hope the buckshot would spread out more because I may not have a lot of time to get fully centered up on target. Especially if he's charging.

By the 2nd shot (slug) , I would hope that I would be squared up and on target and able to put the 1 oz slug somewhere on it better.

I have patterned the gun and know that the modified choke I keep in it will keep most of the pellets on a disposable plate at almost 20 yards. Considering that bears are a lot larger than a paper plate, I'm not all that worried about having a bunch of pellets not connecting with fur somewhere. I'd be fine with a wall of buck, but realistically, a 16 inch spread at 25-30 yards is still likely going to connect with something. Hopefully if not, the slug will fly more true.

we are lucky to receive some knowledge from some of these guides and people who live around these big bears . thank you ,Pete53

Might be a dumb question but how would a 308 Winchester fare as far as Grizzly defense?

There was a "problem" Bear(Late Fall and the fhuqker was simply hungry on the way to den) on a porch,a few blocks away. After the dust settled,there had been (17) Smoothbore rounds fired,all of which were slugs or buckshot. Hint.

Scatterguns and their fodder are Feel Good Notions,for DUMB Fhuqkers that don't shoot and/or deal with Bears. This schit is never not fhuqking HILARIOUS. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!..............

Consider 0 or #1 buck for more pellets on target.

Lace them with Honey too,for MAXIMUM "effectiveness". Hint.

You dawdling Mall Rats are fhuqking HILARIOUS! Hint.


Fhuqking LAUGHING!............

Doesn’t sound dumb at all. Put a box or so in the mag of an AR-10 or M1A and you’d have a giant killer. +P if you make ‘em Partitions or TTSXs.

Weiner,

Dangle a pic of "your" large frame AR or '14. Hint.

You Day DREAMING Brokedick Fhuqk. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!.............

Because most everyone that has minimal knowledge of ballistics, mass, sectional density, ect. would never use buckshot! It would probably be effective at absolute “point blank range”…… but, only on a head shot. On a large bear, at any distance……Penetration will suffer greatly! memtb

So am I the only one that watched the stuck in the rut youtube video? That pistol saved their lives.

Yep, I just know that some wisened hunter will claim that just the whiff of a high BC bullet can kill a grizz. 😂

I saw that and was dumbfounded. Murphy’s Law at work. First Rule of Gunfighting: Bring a gun! They were rapidly running out of options.

Watched it at my brother's last week. Pretty crazy. We were wondering wtf was going on, I said catastrophic case failure. What were the odds of a blown primer getting bound up between the front screw and the action? Either way, I would have thought that family would have brought more than one rifle, considering their other videos.

Maybe the dumb fugheries in yer neighborhood figgered that didn't need to aim said scattergun, either that or they are lousy shots.... 17 shots, and all complete misses! That's some funny schit, even from you.

Uh, huh, you go expert..., shoot something at 10 yards w D0 and tell me how little penetration there is.

I say carry what works for you.

So serious question for those who've actually shot big bears.

I see many people mention only penetration when discussing bear defense with little acknowledgment of wound channel.

The quickest deaths I've observed have been from the bullets that upset the greatest volume of vital tissue. Likewise, I've observed through and through penetration with a narrow wound channel resulting in death taking much longer.

Having not dealt with a grizzly charge, I'm speculating that large wound cavity is going to stop a charge faster than two small holes and less volume.

I carry a pistol always when hunting in griz territory, even in rifle season, one of us generally carry a short .308 when bow hunting, as well.

But like every other situation, bullet choice should be optimized for the situation. I'm just not sure that means giving up a large wound channel for penetration.

It is a HILARIOUS constant,that those the most enthralled with Smoothbores,have seen/interacted with the least number of Bruins. Hint.

You Pavement Pounding Pussies are a fhuqking riot! Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!.................

just watched the video on " we almost died " sure they made few mistakes but they will never forget that trip for that bear. i figured right away what brand and model rifle they had trouble with because i had the same brand rifle that i had trouble with when i was faced by momma grizzly and her 2 older cubs i was lucky she ran away. matter fact 3 of us had the same type rifle all 700 Remingtons none worked that mourning up in the mountains. next day i carried old faithful my 338 Winchester pre 64 model 70 this rifle has never failed me. glad these two made it out ok with a neat story and a bear rug for the wall. thanks for posting the video,Pete53

A 308, or even 30-30 carbine slung over the gal’s shoulder would have changed the situation completely. “Nobody plans to fail. Some just fail to plan.”

WELL SAID , anything but a Remington 700 .

I totally agree with your premise….they work great at moderately close range on Whitetails, humans and smaller big game!

However, unless I’m guaranteed the attack be by a cub…..I’ll pass on buckshot! A large bruin (a lot of bear to penetrate to get to vitals), thick hair, probably a thick fat layer, heavily muscled…..will severely limit the penetration of buckshot!

I chose not to follow Brandon’s recommendations as to the effectiveness of a shotgun! 😂

I do however….fervently support a person’s right to carry/use whatever they desire! Though, I retain the right to question their decisions! memtb

Pete 53, how about filling us in as to how three Remington 700s did not work up in the mountains. Just wondering.

Thanks.

L.W.

17 misses is whats hilarious... carry on

Pete 53, how about filling us in as to how three Remington 700s did not work up in the mountains. Just wondering.

Thanks.

L.W.[/quo .... seafire hacked his accounts...thats why it sounds unbelievable......bob

Serious question Stick----how many of those 17 shots were hits in something somewhat vital, and were they a quality slug or buckshot?

I'm not a shotgun junkie for bear protection but do carry one at work on the 'Slope and sometimes when fishing in griz country, but with Foster or Brennkee slugs only, either normally of Brennkee manufacture. I must admit though, I do feel a bit better when I have my .375 H&H slung instead of the shotgun.


Every law enforcement or research agency that I know about in Alaska and the western US issue shotguns for bear defense, though it sounds like SE AK Forest Service may have some rifles, which is awesome...I can't imagine cost doesn't have some sort of a bearing on that, but there has to be some sort of other benefit to shotguns...ease of use for normal people, reliability in the function, something. It may or may not be effectiveness.

I've dealt with a number of problem brown/griz but have never actually shot or killed one in those situations. I must say that 'warning' shots a foot from their nose at 50 yards hasn't done a damn thing...

Nobody "missed",it was just a Smoothbore Goat Fhuqk. Typical Slug/Buckshot Fairy Tale melding and "results". Hint.

Pass the Carbine and hold The Fluff. Hint.............

we were in the mountains N.W. corner of Yellowstone park area where its legal to hunt ,we were 10 miles up on mules snowing and raining was cold and windy 6 - 8 inches snow on ground 10-20 degrees , 9,000 ft up, we all had our leather scabbards top open, Remington 700`s were loaded safeties on lots of grizzly sign we were hunting elk. a momma grizzly came out with her 2 almost adult cubs around 60 feet away from me i was leading us up .momma grizzly took a look at me i drew my rifle . with some luck she ran away with her cubs when i yelled at her ,thinking my rifle was going to work ,after bear left i then check my rifle and found firing pin was froze up and so were the other 2 Remington 700`s was not a good situation that far from camp. next day we went back up on our mules same area same weather condition i chose to use my 338 Winchester model 70 per 64 ,the other 2 friends used their unthrawed Remington 700`s but there rifles froze up again , but my 338 Winchester 70 did not . after that day they put plastic bags on their 700`s so they did not freeze up on the ride up but i never had too with my Winchester model 70. so now if i hunt in cold nasty weather i either use my Ruger #1`s or Winchester model 70`s never again with a Remington 700 nor will my friends anymore. i have no problem for hunting in easy good weather for people to use a 700 but out in elements camp with a tent in cold weather i would never trust a Remington again that`s why i won`t use a 700 , my family we use Rugers ,Winchesters ,Weatherby mark5`s and Mausers.

That sounds more like a maintenance issue than a Rem 700 issue. I am guessing that Win 70 didn't have as much oil or whatever used on the pin mechanism, or a better low temp oil was used, as opposed to the Remingtons. I've had a number of Ruger, Ithaca, Winchester, Marlin and Remington trigger/firing pin systems freeze up over the years. Once with a very lively and mean spirited wolverine in a foothold. I completely degrease actions now and use a dry graphite lubricant have haven't had an issue down to -40F and that includes on a couple of different Rem 700s.

Not to get into a different argument, but carrying hot is dumb enough, let alone when the rifle is in a scabbard, bouncing around on a mule and not in your immediate control.

It's called "Pin The Tail On The Donkey",for very fhuqking GOOD reason(s). Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!...............

Stick,

You for sure are slippin'.

Your goat fhuqk story does not live up to your potential.

I think you make sheet up .....and you are not fully awake at said posting.

I reckon nobody got bear jammed. Did the noise wake you?

Laffin' laffin' hint -hint hooey.

Full of ballooy.

Crisco,

Your VERY Tender Feelers and Raging Estrogen Levels are hilarious...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

I've been killing problem Bears,for very nearly 40yrs and Scatterguns are for Feathers and Beaks. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!..............

I would never favor a shotgun. I'd take an adequate handgun over a shotgun

Nobody missed...... uh huh. 17 shots and the bear walks... what a hoot...

Raging hormones don't make for good marksmanship.... laffin

We have now established that Remingtons dont work on bears, shotguns are no good, but adequate handguns work....
Haha

Joan,

I missed where it was cited,that said Bear "walked"? Do tell,you AMAZINGLY Stupid Kchunt. Hint.

There's zero need to reiterate your Estrogen Levels. Hint.

Knock it out of the park and cite what you "do" for a "living" and where,you Pavement Pounding Pussy. Hint.



Fhuqking LAUGHING!...................

17 misses, oh no, 17 hits, oh no.... bear walks...
Oh no.. oh here is a picture of me with the neighbors bear... funny schit, goatweed.
Keep it coming, it scattetday and we are starving for entertainment... haha

Joan,

You've never even "seen" a Bear,you Brokedick Pavement Pounding Pussy. Hint.



Don't "forget",that Imitation is THE most Sincere form of Flattery. It's funnier than fhuqk,that suffering being you sucks so fhuqking much,you are trying to turn into a "we". Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!............

Haha, get your meds in order and your story straightened out and get back to me, good pic of you and bear, my how you have changed....!

Joan,

Fortunately for you,Imagination and Pretend are free,so even a Brokedick like YOU can "afford" to "contribute"...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?



Bless your poor poor(literally) heart,for TRYING though.

Fhuqkin LAUGHING!..................

Pete 53, thanks for the information. Now I understand, but as T Inman posted, it was more a maintenance problem than design problem. Frozen or very sluggish firing pins in super cold weather are not exclusive just to Remington 700s. For example, in 1990, my two hunting buddies and I went to Wyoming on a booked elk hunt, out of DuBois. It was October and very cold. There were seven of us dudes in camp. At night, everyone left their rifles in a separate tent where the saddles and tack were stored. Temperature at night got down to below 0°.

First day was "blue bird" weather... until afternoon when a snow storm rolled in. As everyone was out seeking the wily wapiti, our rifles got snow on them. The following morning, before we hunters left camp, the outfitter gathered us in the cook tent and said he wanted us all to check our rifles for any problems. We unloaded and of seven rifles, six of the firing pins were "frozen."

We all took out the bolts, stripped and cleaned them, and then without any oil, replaced them in our rifles. The firing pins then struck as they were supposed to strike.

I was carrying a Ruger 77, tang safety, in .338 Mag., one of my buddies was carrying a Ruger 77, tang safety, 7mm Mag., my other buddy was carrying a Rem. 700, .30-06, another hunter was carrying a Win.70. I do not know if it were pre or post '64. I think it was a .300 Win. Mag. Another Rem. 700 and another Win. 70 had "frozen" up. If I recall,the only rifle still working correctly was a Sako one of the hunters was carrying. Although I kept my rifles clean and knew how to strip the bolts and clean them, it never crossed my mind to do so. Thereafter I did so with my other rifles at home.

As an aside, of the seven hunters, we killed six bull elk on that trip. Two were killed by hunters using Remington 700s. That was great elk country.

FWIW.

L.W.

I am not a bear "hunter", sometimes it's just bad news for bears.





And no retard, I did not use a scattergun.... laffin

Joan,

If you hooked (4) come-alongs to that fhuqking hideous Rat and acted FAST,you might have enough "rug" to reupholster a toilet eat...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Kudos on the Goat Fhuqk rifle,"mounts" and scope. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!................

Your toilet seat, probably 3 axe handles across, just cuz yer such a azz.

But yeah. north slope bears typically don't get all that big, there are exceptions..
at least they are purty unlike the fish eating coastal brown globs....

But the real story is you accuse me of never seeing a bear, then you dont like my bears.....
So, in typical stickup, hiccup fashion, you backpedal cuz your story is full of stick schit.


Funny stuff dude.

Joan,

Keep them Hurt Feeler Reports coming...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

"Tell" me "more",because you are doing fhuqking "GREAT!". Hint.



Don't "forget",that Imitation is THE most Sincere form of Flattery. HINT.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!..................

In spite of my initial impression of you…..I hope that you “never” have to prove your shotgun buckshot usage of a quite large bear!

As you have so much faith in a shotgun……did you kill the bear with a rifle, or simply borrow one for the photo op! memtb

Read the thread nimrod and get a clue....

schcit, big ffing deal, you saw a white bear....! (or scammed a pic form the web) laffing,

Apparently you admire me so much you feel like you have something to prove... laffin.......... what a lipstick sniffin, crayon eating retard.....

Joan,

Good time to wax eloquent,on how suffering being you,makes you steal punctuation...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?



You Whining CLUELESS Brokedick Pavement Pounding Pussies are a fhuqking hoot! Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!..............

What a ugly runt of a bear....................! surprised you wasted your time, keep showing pics and trying to impress, I am bored beyond belief but flattered you care so much.... laughing.....

Joan,

You be SURE to imitate me,if only to ease the suffering of being you,for fleeting moments...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?



You Whining CLUELESS Brokedick Pavement Pounding Pussies are a fhuqking hoot! Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!.................

Repeat, repeat, repeat..... keep trying... I have to go do something, but keep on posting the same pic, I will check in later today and see how you did.... laffin

Repost because it is true…



I can say I have stopped 2 grizzlies by shooting them both in the head. I stopped them from living, but stopping a bear from living and stopping a bear from killing is 2 different things…

Joan,

It's your Imagination,simply Pretend with it as you MUST...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

PLEASE reference any/all frames that your pointy head and crossed eyes deem as "duplicates",as it will be FUNNIER than fhuqk. Hint.

Pardon my not being "blessed" like you,with Lady Fingers. I shoot a goodly sized herd of Pro Bodies,but configure all in like fashion,ala BBF,AI Servo,CP AF,EM,AP,HSD,1/2 stop metering/aperturecontrol and full native stop ISO control. Hint.




I reckon it ain't very "fair" for you there,either. As an aside,I'm slamming a NIB scope aboard another LEGENDARY Rifle. Hint.



You Whining CLUELESS Brokedick Pavement Pounding Pussies are a fhuqking hoot! Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!.................

Wow, pretty aggressive remark there ……even for a computer cowboy! However, all of your professed exploits are very questionable…..when your ineptness and total lack of understanding about terminal performance indicates otherwise!

You should be OK though, as I understand that the Good Lord takes care of drunks and fools…..you may be overly qualified for assistance!

However, you are entertaining….continue my good man! Gee, I hope that I didn’t misgender! memtb

I'd say it was a design flaw. Rem 700 has an enclosed trigger, the M-70 an open trigger

I have no idea.

But with that being said, for a few years I had an M1a Bush Rifle. And I always thought that thing had two great career paths: one, a hog gun in the South and two, a camp gun in grizzly country. Load the 20-round mag with, I dunno, 180 Partitions or TSX’s and keep it handy. I had it set up with a ghost ring rear sight and a tritium front post. Badass rifle. It was my bump-in-the-night gun for my rural property for a few years there, but we don’t seem to get bears (30+ years) despite them being seen not far away. So I switched to an AR for that job and got my money back out of the M1a.

So while I don’t know diddly about killing big angry bears I gotta think a short handy .308 semi with 20 rounds of whupass on tap would not suck.

If you miss, seems like the long gun will give you more room and more time to scream.

the Remington 700`s we had were all clean and dry tell we went up the mountain those Remington 700`s filled up with moisture /water and froze slowly as we rode up Remington have a design problem. my Winchester model 70 pre 64 does not have that problem. most hunters have never been on a nasty cold snowy hunt riding mules like that in the mountains and i hope i never do again . > be glad you never have we never seen any elk either just bears and if you wanna use a Remington 700 in these conditions good luck.Pete53

Thus happens because Remington uses an enclosed trigger which will freeze up in such conditions. The Winchester M-70 has an open trigger which will not collect moisture and freeze up

For the past 52 years hunting in the Rockies, including horsepacking and backpacking, plus two DIY Alaskan moose/caribou float trips where we spent a total of 31 days floating the river, and where it rained more days then not, I've carried M700's most of the time. Never had a trigger or FP freeze up.

But had one malfunction....

When I was 14 my dad gave me a M700 to use. When I was 15 I pulled the trigger three times on a raghorn bull and nothing went bang. A friend of my dad's had come hunting with us and had worked for Remington as a machinist in the late 50's. He looked at my ammo with primer indents (I had picked up the rounds because I knew the adults weren't going to believe me otherwise) took my rifle and began to field strip the bolt. Dirt, pinecones, dead squirrels, etc came out as he pulled the FP out of the bolt body. A little Coleman gas to poured over the FP and into the bolt body and then he reassembled the bolt, and of course the rifle worked perfectly.

It's a lesson I have never forgot. Every year after hunting season I disassemble my rifles and clean triggers, bolts/FP's, feed rails, all of it. Then I squirt a bit of oil in the trigger and FP. Never had a mechanical malfunction since.

10-11 years ago I purchased a M700ADL early A series rifle that was in excellent shape. When I was inspecting the rifle the action screws appeared to be unblemished. I was thinking the stock had never been off the rifle. Bought the rifle and brought it home, pulled the stock and sure enough dirt, pine cones, dead squirrels fell out and the entire underside of the rifle was coated in a THICK coat of gunk. Couldn't even see the trigger housing and the little window that shows the sear engagement was entirely plugged.

First, that rifle was a AD looking for a happening, and second it was a malfunction of every other sort looking for a happening.

Most of these stories of firearms malfunctioning in the field, including the most popular bolt action rifle in America are generally a malfunction of firearm care.

thanks for posting that

Accuracy International AW's(Arctic Warfare) are enclosed triggers. I've schlepped 700's from hell to breakfast and seldom had to apply Sun Lotion. Hell...I even got one damp and cold,one time. Hint. LAUGHING!

I don't have a receiver that's shot out more than five barrels(7-08 all) and tend to flog on schit as a rule. The striker assemblies as cited,are typically a Goat Fhuqk,whether NIB or secondhand. I like Starting Fluid and it has a LIGHT lube in it,which I do NOT add to. Never an issue,but I'm only talking 100's of thousands of rounds. Hint.

That being said,I go through a fair number of follower springs,in 700's and Montuckies both. Hint................

Lighter fluid and paint thinner/mineral spirits are indeed a lubricant. A very, very light lubricant, but still a lubricant. I soak my trigger assemblies and and gun parts in paint thinner in a "parts basket and bucket" I made for that purpose.

Huh....I may have to try the lighter fluid thing, though dry graphite has never given me a reason to dislike it in extreme cold.

How many bears pictured thus far were shot in a DLP? I suspect none and thus they really don't have much bearing on this thread's purpose. I've rifle shot plenty of bears that had no clue I was around and haven't found any common hunting cartridge/bullet combo that didn't work.

I prefer Starter Fluid,because it's got some ass and leaves dick nothing behind. Hint.

LEGENDARY Status reinstated. Hint.






If you are fhuqking DUMB enough to grab pics of a DLP,that's your fhuqking fault. Hint...................

The ideal is expansion with lots of penetration. The reason is that the squared-on angle you get in a defensive shooting requires a bullet to track straight through some heavy muscle and some bone. Expansion is good because it wrecks stuff, but that means nothing if the bullet fails to reach stuff that matters. In my experience, if forced to pick between expansion or penetration, I’ll take penetration every time. That said, all my experience is with brown bears so maybe lighter built critters such as cougars, wolves, or leopards would be different. I’ve seen some really poor and some really spectacular results, which tends to color my thinking. I’ve never looked at a shotgun wound on a bear and been terribly impressed, but I regularly am impressed with what proper rifles do to them.

Or just carry a Marlin 45-70 336 with 400 grain Keith style cast with GC’s, steel sights such as an open V or an open ghost ring aperture sight and call it good.

FWIW, the 34mm 4-16x Arken is every bit of that dang low when mounted with their Low rings on a stock rail on a CTR. Thankfully the Arken "caps" are half rubber, and just barely squeezed on.

This is a tough thing to find as they are counter to each other.

I don't own big wheelguns, but tried a .45 LC, and although I could shoot it I wasn't as quick to get it on target and make good hits with it. So I carry auto's generally a 1911 .45ACP with Buffalo Bore ammo. I know I can get several hits in couple seconds. I'll get a 10mm 1911 when funds allow but it's been easy to put off. I feel even a 9mm is better than nothing, and two legged predators are just as likely so far.

I really like my ‘95 45-70…..but prefer a bit heavier bullet! I think that my 430’s offer a good blend of velocity and weight for penetration. If it were to be only used for “up close and personal” …..I’d go heavier than my 430’s. But, that’s just me! 😉 I do however, like 400’s in my handgun! 🤔
memtb

I don't mind overpackin'.

45-70 + .480 Bisley SBH 4.62"/6.5".

I'd pack a tomahawk and a Bowie if they'd let me!

I wouldn't disagree with that, even if the troopers cleared it as a legal DLP but my point remains.

I was bluff charged by an interior griz last August. It happened too quick for me to get a shot off, even if it hadn't been a bluff. My heart was pumping so fast I have no idea if I could have hit it with a net gun, let alone the .300 Win I had.

No pics of course...though I did kill a bear a few days later that very possibly could have been the same one. He was just minding his own business that day...

Unfortunately,the Arken caps are THE schittiest in the business. Hint.




Just sayin'................

I lived remote in AK, no DLPs existed, ever. I got run over by a bear on a charge. I couldn’t clear leather and line up fast enough. Ripped off a 320 gr into the dirt. For what ever reason the bear jumped to the side and gave me his second chance. BTW I fully believe a heavy 44 mag or larger at full tilt is about the $hittiest handgun I could use, especially if it’s a single action.

You have a habit on not keeping up. Carry on, mumb lee

I think you guys are right. More than 400 grains would be better. But I’d still select cast over jacketed. If I were to use jacketed I’d look at a heavily constructed bullet.

John, I had posted and since deleted a comment, which would have been improper and less than civil! You continue to believe what you wish, as logic and physics mean little in the basis of your opinion!

I do however have a question……what type of shotgun and what was the shell type that was carried by your guide as his/her client back-up firearm! Also, please disclose the guides name…..should I ever have a guided bear hunt! Thanks memtb

Bugger, if this was in reference to my 45-70 comment……both firearms mentioned will be using my cast bullets. I use “only” cast in my larger bore, slow movers! I reserve expanding bullets for others that step a bit faster! memtb

For you, I recommend you carry a sharp stick as you prefer to poke and provoke.

Ooppsie

A nice, witty response…..but, you have avoided answering the question! I suspect that if truth is involved in your answer….it may not support your position on this topic! memtb

I HAVE SAID MULTIPLE TIMES CARRY WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND YOUR SITUATION! Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Would you venture to agree that situations vary and not everyone is competent with the same firearm as someone else?
Geez man, you just want to argue and poke...

You Brokedick Window Licking Google Gals,are a fhuqking riot and Joan wins The Retard Tournament...the "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Scatterguns are for Beaks and Feathers. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!..............

Haha, you and your 17 shots and the bear still walked.... that says it all...

Joan,

You are welcome to any/all Delusions you can concoct,as you obliviously quantify that STUPIDITY isn't a "secret advantage",despite your schlepping it everywhere...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Do not "forget",that Imitation is THE most Sincere form of Flattery,as you "live" vicariously. Hint.



Fhuqking LAUGHING!...............

Haha, bear walker now posting boo pics, hoping to impress, non plussed, I've seen it all..

Practice aiming..... its amazing... I hear dry firing can help..


Keep trying, i will check in later, got schit to do and can't sit by the computer all day waiting on you... grins

Joan,

It's your Imagination,simply Pretend with it as you MUST...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?



Do not "forget",that Imitation is THE most Sincere form of Flattery,as you "live" vicariously. Hint.

Fortunately for you,Imagination and Pretend are free,so you can "afford" to "contribute" and dry fire. Hint.



Fhuqking LAUGHING!.............

👍 Yep…..should’ve never called you out on your choice of firearms/ammunition! You have a nice day….ya here! 😉 memtb

So disappointed in you stickbug, gone all day and hoping for something new, but alas, samo, samo, pics and rhetoric we have all seen heard countless times..

You get a BIG F for new content, and a B- for copy & paste...

But hey, keep trying lil buddy, I'm rooting for ya...
Grins...!

For a guy with less than a thousand posts, you sure are a mouthy person. Where is Garden Island, New Jersey?

That was my guess! There was lots of evidence indicating that region! memtb

I believe Garden island is somewhere here in Fairbanks.

That's news. I guess I didn't realize the amount of post was required to call someone out. Seems many have been doing it for years. But maybe they have the required number of posts.

This was a bear stopping thread originally.

All the threads go into the chitter , especillly when stick and his language of "Stick Latin" posts.

Well I am not a "Stick" fan boy, and I don't think I have ever posted in a tread that he is participating in, but I have noticed that in 2 or 3 threads of late that he has been helpful in the discussion and fairly articulate in a Stick kind of way.

Melting Snowflake Crying Karens,will ALWAYS find reason(s) to cry...you "lucky" kchunts. Hint. Congratulations?!?



You gals are a "rugged" lot. Scatterguns are for Beaks and Feathers. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!................

Don't forget rabbits

It's Wabbit Season! No, it's Duck season!, No Wabbit season!!! etc. ad nauseum....... LOL

We occasionally drift off topic! Sometimes to return…..often not! memtb

Before writing off shotgun slugs completely it might be worth doing some penetration tests with the Brenneke "magnum crush", which throws a 1.5 ounce {666 gr.} slug at 1600 fps with 3800 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy and particularly the Brenneke "special forces maximum barrier penetration magnum" which throws an extra hard alloy 1 3/8 oz {602 gr.} slug at 1650 fps with 3545 ft. lbs. muzzle energy. No doubt either would far out penetrate a Foster slug or any of the old 1 - 1 1/4 oz. Brennekes.

Good slugs, such as described, can be extremely effective! memtb

Since I don't have a rifled barrel, I'll stick with my well-stocked Brenneke Black Magics!

Depending on the situation. If I can, run and run fast.

Okay, running is not a good idea. Let's practice working smart so bear and humans don't mix.

If I can, I will always take a long gun over a hand gun.

Handgun: I like 45 ACP/ I trusted my life to a 45 ACP

Years ago I shot a whitetail buck square in the brisket as it faced me head on with one of the old Brenneke Gold 3" magnum slugs and recovered the slug from a hind quarter. Those Brenneke Gold magnums threw a 1 3/8 oz. slug at 1500 fps., exactly the same ballistics as your Black Magic slug loads. I have to wonder if adding the additional 64 grains and 100 fps. of the Magnum Crush would have had the slug exiting out the rear end of that buck.

Anyone that thinks brenneke slugs are “The Ticket” needs to find and read member klikitarik’s post about a brenneke failure vs. a small/medium brown bear.

Klikitarik didn't use either of the slugs I listed. It's too bad the old Dixie Terminator and DGS slugs are no longer available. The DGS {dangerous game slug}was an 870 grain hard cast slug loaded to 1200 fps and if I remember correctly the Terminator was a 1000 grain hard cast at 1100 fps... I remember reading the results of penetration tests with those two where they shot them through various mediums that included cattle bones and the penetration equalled or exceeded some real thumper rifle rounds. There are some solid brass slugs being loaded today that also give significantly better penetration than Foster slugs. If I remember correctly it was thirteen 3/4" pine boards for the brass slugs vs 7 for the Fosters and 7 gallon jugs of water vs 4. I remember watching a video review of them but can't remember who makes them.



Edit.

Found it. The brass slugs are made by Ballistic Machinist.

I watched a special on Churchill MB one time. Most of the locals seemed to go about with Winchester 30-30 rifles slung on their backs in case of Polar Bear trouble. It always surprised me they didn't have 12 gauge shotguns instead. I guess this thread has shined some light on that

Shotguns have only one suitable loading that I know of: The 3" magnum Brenneke - My Mossberg handles 2 3/4 quite well, 3" shells don't cycle quite as reliably...something to consider

Bring your bear "tools" (and your porters):



https://www.mountainzone.com/mountains/washington/whatcom-wa/summits/american-border-peak/

This has been an interesting read. So nobody likes a 12 Gauge solid? I have absolutely no experience on grizzly, but this surprised me. Thanks to all who shared with experience. I'll have to rethink my sasquatch medicine!

I shot a 900 pound freshly dead angus bull with a 12 ga slug in the front leg/ shoulder

I wasn’t impressed with the penetration.

I shot a freshly dead 1200 pound Holstein cow with a 416 rigby….impressive

I would imagine a metallic cartridge would harness more energy?

It depends entirely upon the 12 ga. solid. A few specific types would be quite effective……most slugs would be near useless! memtb

Get the Brenneke Black Magic if you carry a 12ga instead of a rifle.

Regardless of what the couch talkers, say.

More than a few posts have come from people that have actually seen a bear, shot a bear, and a done a lot more...

My bear guide on Kodiak backed me up with a.


.270 win.

I had zero worries.

He guided to plenty of 10 footers before mine

You were very young…..he was very dumb! 😂 Or maybe he was a track star! 😉 memtb

I believe a smart guy somewhere close has made comments about the 30-06. I watched my son kill a brown bear with a 25-06 with 80gr bullets. He made 2 lethal shots and the bear had no choice but to die.

I did in fact get more from it. The last time I was in the presence of a live bear was nearly 50 years ago. My dad was stationed in Alaska twice when I was a kid and we spent a lot of time fishing. He carried a Super Blackhawk and I kept his Ruger carbine strapped on my back from the time I got out of the truck till I got back in it. Not real convenient but it gave me the false sense of security only a kid could get from the small number of rounds it held. Fortunately I never saw a bear on our side of the river. If I was going where bears could be a problem now I would be wearing a .45 Colt or my Flat top Ruger with heavy loads and have close at hand either my Marlin Cowboy 45-70 with cast 405 grain or my Winchester model 71 with Woodleigh or Barnes 250 grain . With the current state of my health this is not likely to ever happen.

never been by a brown bear , been way to close to a grizzly and came around a corner in the woods and a huge male black bear was 10 feet from me not a good situation . shot black bears with my bow and arrow but never a gun. i have been around grizzly bears and black bears in camp , at home and hunting don`t care for bears much . if i ever went on a guided big bear hunt which i won`t be i would do as the guide tells me. i would have no trouble ever using just a pain Jane 30-06 but i do want either my Winchester, Browning,Weatherby or Ruger rifle i have trust issues with other brand rifles.

what brand and model rifle did you use ?

No doubt about the 270’s ability to kill a big bear…..but, not the ideal “stopping cartridge”! Simply put…..there are others far better for “stopping”! memtb

Maybe the .270 wasn’t to shoot the bear. 😳

😂 I guess that using the 270 on the client means the guide doesn’t need to be a track star! 😉 memtb

Hahahaha!!!

Everyone involved knew that.
The bear never twitched after my first shot.

Everyone involved knew that.
The bear never twitched after my first shot.
That's not my bear.

I absolutely pole axed my bear with the first shot with a .300 wby mag.
With 20p gr Nosler Partitions.
When I approached I dumpled the rest of the magazine into him for insurance.
Thread is cheap...🤣

If that's the case....

> i had the same thought. 22 short in his knee and run like heck !

I’m glad that the “stopping” power of the 270 wasn’t tested! memtb

A fellow with a .270 is far from unarmed. Load it with Partitions or TTSX's and I'd choose it over most shotgun loads and any handgun. Best tool? Probably not, but not exactly a popgun either.

About 30 years ago there was a bear stopping article in one of the gun mags. In it they compared the .44 Mag with 240g hardcast to larger rifle cartridges with expanding bullets. I can't remember what the rifles were, but I think one was the 30-06 with 180g bullets of what kind I don't recall. It could have been Sierra Game Kings for all I remember. The 44 easily out penetrated the rifles. Now we can say if the rifle had similar solid bullets they would out-penetrate the .44, but it is a rare person who is loading solids in a rifle for bear hunting/defense.

Having not ever shot a bear but thinking stopping one would be more difficult then just shooting it behind the shoulder, the .44 in this case with better penetration might be better. But then again how deep do you need. Also, we have heard over the years of bullets not penetrating from rifles. Again not knowing what bullet was used. Basically, is it the bullet or the cartridge?

About the same time a guide in MT killed a charging Grizzley with a 7mm Rem Mag. that had already mangled his client Bullet unknown.

Just a Hunter, if you look all the way back to my opening post……you may find the inclosed data interesting! memtb

Thanks. Good info

John Linebaugh is having another “get together” this June…..you should come on down! It should be a good time! memtb

Finally watched the video yesterday……very good! Shows that almost anything can go wrong at any time! I listened very carefully for the young lady to suggest that having a semi auto would’ve given a much better “feel good” moment! 😉 memtb

If that was the video with the wounded bear and the two people basically unarmed, then a single shot rifle would have changed their world. A dangerous situation would have been just a good story to tell. Even a 270 :-)

A .454 Casull is a pretty darn good stopping cartridge (and he was using good bullets)……you just gotta put them where needed! An adrenaline fueled “anything” is hard to stop……especially a big Brown or Grizzly! memtb

You are such a woman.

I doubt you could EVER carry my jock strap...your need to question your inner urges through projection and other mental handicaps, only you can grasp is sad. A pathetic little man on a hubristic journey to the center of the Earth, hoping to find a drop of testosterone in his own scrotum.

And failing.

Understand, you just crossed a border and you are now on a special list. I will never put up with the slightest bullshit from a pathetic POS like you. Nothing is out of bounds and you are now a total POS.

We're dispatching a WHHANNBULANCE to your location.

Be sure to put on your slippers and housecoat.

just a simple 45 -70 Marlin guide rifle open sights with a sling just a good back up and light to carry rifle . i would think when your hunting a big bear in a Alaska why would only have one rifle ? forget the bow they were rookies with limited experience they were really lucky to live . hopefully they learned a lesson always bring a spare rifle with ammo and don`t bring some odd ball cartridge rifle either !

If you’re referring to the Stuck in the Rut video and crew, they’re hardly “rookies with limited experience”. I do find it amusing though that by your own admission, your closest call involved a griz sow and cubs that ran away while still 60 or so feet out and a black bear at 10 feet that did same, yet you’re critiquing folks who have hunted, shot and killed multiple brown/grizzly bears in AK and constantly hunt in the thick of Idaho’s panhandle griz areas.

T Inman;
Good afternoon my friend, I trust the weekend was a tolerable one for you and your start of the week has been behaving.

Once again I'll say up front that my grizzly experience in next to nothing so let's be clear about that for sure and certain.

Your mention of the Idaho panhandle isn't insignificant as our Kootenay grizzly bears have been instigating more and more incidents since the leftist provincial government shut off the grizzly season to buy off the Green Party. They admitted they had no scientific reason for it as well, it was all politics T...

Good of them to come clean and all that.

Anyways, the Kootenay grizzly bears are likely as aware of the medicine line as our local elk, sheep, whitetail and mulies that head south into Washington and the turkeys and Fox squirrels that come north, which is to say not at all.

Lots of stories coming out of there these days though, for sure some anecdotal and some that get loud, sporty and graphic which make the news at 5:00 type.

Again I'm not sure about the disposition of the Alaska ones, but buddy who spends the summer in the Yukon is of the opinion the grizzlies up there might be better behaved than ours down here and to the east.

It pays to pay attention regardless, that's beyond dispute I'd think?

Best to you this week my friend.

Dwayne

Good day to you too Dwayne…it is commonly referenced that hunted grizzly bears behave better around people than unhunted bears, and I am sure there is some truth to that.

I have however, experienced both ‘nice’ and ‘not so nice’ inland grizzlies, in the lower 48, as well as remote Yukon and Alaska. I guess a guy can catch them in about any kind of mood. Maybe the hunted bears in the Yukon and Alaska that I have been around simply hadn’t been around many people before and therefor may have been ‘unhunted’???

I dunno but a couple sure reminds me of lower 48 bears.

I have limited experience with brown bears though have seen them closer than I’d prefer. They ‘behaved’ but I also didn’t try to take their steak supper away from them…

That would be fun and embarrassing for me. I sold my .475 Linebaugh and don't know if I can lift a revolver yet. I had shoulder surgery a little bit ago on my shooting arm. My only 2 large calibers are a Ruger Bisley in 45 Colt and an Anaconda in 44 mag.

Just a Hunter, I guess that you hadn’t seen the recents posts about John……he passed away yesterday afternoon! Truly a sad time for all who knew him and for the firearms folks in general! memtb

No. Is it on another thread? I never met him, but admired his work.

Yes…..over in handguns and on the Hunters Campfire! memtb

After much reading and deliberation of posts by people with far more experience than me, I'm leaning to minimum .308/.30-06 with 165TSX or 180 grain bonded bullets, preferably heavier. This would be in a handy light weight rifle like an M70 FWT with either an Aimpoint or a low-powered scope on top. These bullets are relatively easier to come by for those cartridges. Handloading would be 180TSX or 200-220NP or Swift A-Frames or something similar. It's good to have options. Also IME many people in the north have .223, .308/.30-06 or some other .30 caliber.

I had a Marlin Guide Gun, but factory ammo up here was only Hornady Leverevolution or the trap door loads. Also I felt like the Marlins would be a PITA for field maintenance, and maybe a PITA to load and unload around machines all the time. A Model 70 field strips with no tools. So does an 870 to a point. I replaced the Marlin with a stainless boat paddle Ruger Mark II in .338WM with iron sights and bought some 250 grain Nosler Partitions.

We used to carry shotguns but the Foster slugs we were issued tells me people didn't really know enough. IMO they were kept around partly for the rubber bullet option. When a problem bear had to be dealt with, the old SMLE went out to do it.

As to slugs, there's a guy on YT named Brobee that tested both the Brennekes and the Federal Tru-Ball Deep Penetrator and found them about even. If I was forced to carry a shotgun, I'd look for either of those. Heard good things about the challengers, but haven't seen any tests. One thing that bothers me is if you stop a charge ay point blank with a 12 gauge and the wounded bear puts distance between you. What about the potential danger for everyone else? Once hit squarely at spitting distance, I think I would have to ensure that the bear was dead, and wouldn't stop firing until I knew there was no longer a threat.

Tikkas have enclosed triggers and are accepted around the north as robust arctic rifles. The only video I've seen of a Model 70 trigger freezing up was the old style open trigger, in the arctic no less. No reports that I can find on the new FN trigger. It seems simple enough, and FN doesn't make crap. You'd think some military experience may have factored into the design. Canadian Ranger rifle is a Tikka with laminate stock and was selected for northerners in remote conditions after a lot of consultation, deliberation and testing.

Also I'd prefer a .338WM or .375H&H if I could hump the weight all day. Given one day at the range with 500 grain .458WM and Lotts kicked the crap out of me in four rounds, a .458WM is probably too much for me but I like the idea of using 350grain TSX handloads. The .375H&H is night and day easier on me and I suppose a .458 with similar bullet weights would emulate that. But then why not just stick with the .375?

Iron sights are handier and I'd like them as backup, but not essential. Aimpoints in QD mounts can be changed for Leupolds in QD rings if one or the other fails. Some people I've spoken with in the arctic don't like scopes at all - probably with good reason as arctic climates are hell on gear. Rifle sights get bumped and broken off too though, and aren't easily replaceable. Perhaps one needs a scope to back up the irons! But I'm way quicker on point with an optic of some sort and both eyes open, and sometimes it's hard to spot the front sight. I think a ghost ring with an orange or brass post front sight (white would suck in the snow) is quicker, but still not as fast. A 70 FWT with an Aimpoint Micro works about as fast as a shotgun with a bead.

It would be pretty cool if Leupold made a 1x30mm version of the FX-II 2.5x20mm. I have that scope on the .375H&H. Both eyes are doable, the 5" eye relief is great and fairly forgiving, and it's simple and rugged.

With any luck, future bears will either not be interested in me or the other options (bangers, spray) will work first. So far all of the above have applied. Nice to see them when on walkabout, and I don't wish them any harm. They help make make wilderness wild and remind us of a planet with stuff going on where we are generally not.

I like the post reminding us that radios and medical kits are just as important. So is a giant orange flag.

Yeah, don't be high when shooting.

How about you not being a deliberately stupid D A...or are your transitioning drugs to be a male affecting your womanhood ??

I just got an m&p mold they'll casts around 420g for my 45/70. It's got all the pin sets so I am going to cast some cup point ones with about a 15 hardness lead. They will be for my marlin guide gun.

I used to carry Hornady 350g flat noses at almost 2100 fps but the recoil is too much. My plinking load has been a cast 340g lee powder coated and it's much more manageable so I planned to load the new heavier cup point cast to about 1500 as well.

I regret selling my bfr 475 linebaugh sometimes but it was heavy and had a 7.5" barrel so I never carried it. When I decided to get away from it I sold a rossi 92 in 480 that I had as well. I wasn't casting at the time or I probably would have kept it. I still have a 420g mold for the 480 and I'll bet that little 92 would have done well with a moderate loaded 420g.

Bb