Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Christianity…

Yes. Faith is a means of perception to apprehend God’s salvation, believing what God says, just as Abraham did in believing what God said in Genesis 15.

Antlers, you need to open your eyes. Your skepticism of scripture is blinding you to the truth. You have to take the whole Bible, not pick and choose what YOU wish…

well said

I can do that. He taught for 3 years. It's what people say he really meant that is a problem. And some folks suppose that the 4th man was Jesus and that the high priest of Salem that Abraham split the loot with was Jesus. Jesus actually had a pretty simple and common sense message.

Does my salvation depend upon what you call my “skepticism of scripture”…? I think it’s OK to kick the tires. I think you can both wrestle with honest questions and skepticism ‘and’ embrace a genuine faith in God. God understands our questions and skepticism, because He understands us. I think He welcomes our honest questions and skepticism, and I am convinced that God would rather have us yell at Him than walk away from Him. We shouldn’t deny our doubts; we can still embrace the Gospel even when we wrestle with God.

I've asked Antlers to be a guest speaker at Church, I think he, "Gets it."

I’m able to “track” with my friend antlers which is why I really appreciate his point of view. I appreciate all the participants and the very learned opinions.

Good folks, the thief on the Cross was saved, you all know that story. Let us Praise Jesus.

I do not know, but upon research, I found an interesting time-line of the Bible.....


The Old Testament era contains the story of creation—how God made everything including humanity with whom He would enter into an eternal covenant relationship.

Creation - B.C. 2000 - Originally, the earliest Scriptures are handed down from generation to generation orally.
Circa B.C. 2000-1500 - The book of Job, perhaps the oldest book of the Bible, is written.
Circa B.C. 1500-1400 - The stone tablets of the Ten Commandments are given to Moses at Mount Sinai and later stored in the Ark of the Covenant.
Circa B.C. 1400–400 - The manuscripts comprising the original Hebrew Bible (39 Old Testament books) are completed. The Book of the Law is kept in the tabernacle and later in the Temple beside the Ark of the Covenant.
Circa B.C. 300 - All of the original Old Testament Hebrew books have been written, collected, and recognized as official, canonical books.
Circa B.C. 250–200 - The Septuagint, a popular Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (39 Old Testament books), is produced. The 14 books of the Apocrypha are also included.

The New Testament Era and Christian Age
The New Testament era begins with the birth of Jesus Christ, the Messiah and Savior of the world. Through Him, God opens His plan of salvation to the Gentiles. The Christian church is established and the Gospel—God's Good News of salvation in Jesus—begins to spread throughout the Roman Empire and eventually into all the world.

Circa A.D. 45–100 - Original 27 books of the Greek New Testament are written.
Circa A.D. 140-150 - Marcion of Sinope's heretical "New Testament" prompted Orthodox Christians to establish a New Testament canon.
Circa A.D. 200 - The Jewish Mishnah, the Oral Torah, is first recorded.
Circa A.D. 240 - Origen compiles the Hexapla, a six-columned parallel of Greek and Hebrew texts.
Circa A.D. 305-310 - Lucian of Antioch's Greek New Testament text becomes the basis for the Textus Receptus.
Circa A.D. 312 - Codex Vaticanus is possibly among the original 50 copies of the Bible ordered by Emperor Constantine. It is eventually kept in the Vatican Library in Rome.
A.D. 367 - Athanasius of Alexandria identifies the complete New Testament canon (27 books) for the first time.
A.D. 382-384 - Saint Jerome translates the New Testament from original Greek into Latin. This translation becomes part of the Latin Vulgate manuscript.
A.D. 397 - Third Synod of Carthage approves the New Testament canon (27 books).
A.D. 390-405 - Saint Jerome translates the Hebrew Bible into Latin and completes the Latin Vulgate manuscript. It includes the 39 Old Testament books, 27 New Testament books, and 14 Apocrypha books.
A.D. 500 - By now the Scriptures have been translated into multiple languages, not limited to but including an Egyptian version (Codex Alexandrinus), a Coptic version, an Ethiopic translation, a Gothic version (Codex Argenteus), and an Armenian version. Some consider the Armenian to be the most beautiful and accurate of all ancient translations.
A.D. 600 - The Roman Catholic Church declares Latin as the only language for Scripture.
A.D. 680 - Caedmon, English poet and monk, renders Bible books and stories into Anglo Saxon poetry and song.
A.D. 735 - Bede, English historian and monk, translates the Gospels into Anglo Saxon.
A.D. 775 - The Book of Kells, a richly decorated manuscript containing the Gospels and other writings, is completed by Celtic monks in Ireland.
Circa A.D. 865 - Saints Cyril and Methodius begin translating the Bible into Old Church Slavonic.
A.D. 950 - The Lindisfarne Gospels manuscript is translated into Old English.
Circa A.D. 995-1010 - Aelfric, an English abbot, translates parts of Scripture into Old English.
A.D. 1205 - Stephen Langton, theology professor and later Archbishop of Canterbury, creates the first chapter divisions in the books of the Bible.
A.D. 1229 - Council of Toulouse strictly forbids and prohibits lay people from owning a Bible.
A.D. 1240 - French Cardinal Hugh of Saint Cher publishes the first Latin Bible with the chapter divisions that still exist today.
A.D. 1325 - English hermit and poet, Richard Rolle de Hampole, and English poet William Shoreham translate the Psalms into metrical verse.
Circa A.D. 1330 - Rabbi Solomon ben Ismael first places chapter divisions in the margins of the Hebrew Bible.
A.D. 1381-1382 - John Wycliffe and associates, in defiance of the organized Church, believing that people should be permitted to read the Bible in their own language, begin to translate and produce the first handwritten manuscripts of the entire Bible in English. These include the 39 Old Testament books, 27 New Testament books, and 14 Apocrypha books.
A.D. 1388 - John Purvey revises Wycliffe's Bible.
A.D. 1415 - 31 years after Wycliffe's death, the Council of Constance charges him with more than 260 counts of heresy.
A.D. 1428 - 44 years after Wycliffe's death, church officials dig up his bones, burn them, and scatter the ashes on Swift River.
A.D. 1455 - After the invention of the printing press in Germany, Johannes Gutenberg produces the first printed Bible, the Gutenberg Bible, in the Latin Vulgate.

The Reformation Era
The Reformation marks the beginning of Protestantism and the widespread expansion of the Bible into human hands and hearts through printing and increased literacy.

A.D. 1516 - Desiderius Erasmus produces a Greek New Testament, a forerunner to the Textus Receptus.
A.D. 1517 - Daniel Bomberg's Rabbinic Bible contains the first printed Hebrew version (Masoretic text) with chapter divisions.
A.D. 1522 - Martin Luther translates and publishes the New Testament for the first time into German from the 1516 Erasmus version.
A.D. 1524 - Bomberg prints a second edition Masoretic text prepared by Jacob ben Chayim.
A.D. 1525 - William Tyndale produces the first translation of the New Testament from Greek into English.
A.D. 1527 - Erasmus publishes a fourth edition Greek-Latin translation.
A.D. 1530 - Jacques Lefèvre d'Étaples completes the first French-language translation of the entire Bible.
A.D. 1535 - Myles Coverdale's Bible completes Tyndale's work, producing the first complete printed Bible in the English language. It includes the 39 Old Testament books, 27 New Testament books, and 14 Apocrypha books.
A.D. 1536 - Martin Luther translates the Old Testament into the commonly-spoken dialect of the German people, completing his translation of the entire Bible in German.
A.D. 1536 - Tyndale is condemned as a heretic, strangled, and burned at the stake.
A.D. 1537 - The Matthew Bible (commonly known as the Matthew-Tyndale Bible), a second complete printed English translation, is published, combining the works of Tyndale, Coverdale and John Rogers.
A.D. 1539 - The Great Bible, the first English Bible authorized for public use, is printed.
A.D. 1546 - Roman Catholic Council of Trent declares the Vulgate as the exclusive Latin authority for the Bible.
A.D. 1553 - Robert Estienne publishes a French Bible with chapter and verse divisions. This system of numbering becomes widely accepted and is still found in most Bible's today.
A.D. 1560 - The Geneva Bible is printed in Geneva, Switzerland. It is translated by English refugees and published by John Calvin's brother-in-law, William Whittingham. The Geneva Bible is the first English Bible to add numbered verses to the chapters. It becomes the Bible of the Protestant Reformation, more popular than the 1611 King James Version for decades after its original release.
A.D. 1568 - The Bishop's Bible, a revision of the Great Bible, is introduced in England to compete with the popular but "inflammatory toward the institutional Church" Geneva Bible.
A.D. 1582 - Dropping its 1,000-year-old Latin-only policy, the Church of Rome produces the first English Catholic Bible, the Rheims New Testament, from the Latin Vulgate.
A.D. 1592 - The Clementine Vulgate (authorized by Pope Clementine VIII), a revised version of the Latin Vulgate, becomes the authoritative Bible of the Catholic Church.
A.D. 1609 - The Douay Old Testament is translated into English by the Church of Rome, to complete the combined Douay-Rheims Version.
A.D. 1611 - The King James Version, also called the "Authorized Version" of the Bible is published. It is said to be the most printed book in the history of the world, with more than one billion copies in print.

Age of Reason, Revival, and Progress

A.D. 1663 - John Eliot's Algonquin Bible is the first Bible printed in America, not in English, but in the native Algonquin Indian language.
A.D. 1782 - Robert Aitken's Bible is the first English language (KJV) Bible printed in America.
A.D. 1790 - Matthew Carey publishes a Roman Catholic Douay-Rheims Version English Bible in America.
A.D. 1790 - William Young prints the first pocket-sized "school edition" King James Version Bible in America.
A.D. 1791 - The Isaac Collins Bible, the first family Bible (KJV), is printed in America.
A.D. 1791 - Isaiah Thomas prints the first illustrated Bible (KJV) in America.
A.D. 1808 - Jane Aitken (daughter of Robert Aitken), is the first woman to print a Bible.
A.D. 1833 - Noah Webster, after publishing his famous dictionary, releases his own revised edition of the King James Bible.
A.D. 1841 - The English Hexapla New Testament, a comparison of the original Greek language and six important English translations, is produced.
A.D. 1844 - The Codex Sinaiticus, a handwritten Koine Greek manuscript of both Old and New Testament texts dating back to the fourth century, is rediscovered by German Bible scholar Konstantin Von Tischendorf in the Monastery of Saint Catherine on Mount Sinai.
A.D. 1881-1885 - The King James Bible is revised and published as the Revised Version (RV) in England.
A.D. 1901 - The American Standard Version, the first major American revision of the King James Version, is published.
Age of Ideologies
A.D. 1946-1952 - The Revised Standard Version is published.
A.D. 1947-1956 - The Dead Sea Scrolls are discovered.
A.D. 1971 - The New American Standard Bible (NASB) is published.
A.D. 1973 - The New International Version (NIV) is published.
A.D. 1982 - The New King James Version (NKJV) is published.
A.D. 1986 - The discovery of the Silver Scrolls, believed to be the oldest Bible text ever, is announced. They were found three years earlier in the Old City of Jerusalem by Gabriel Barkay of Tel Aviv University.
A.D. 1996 - The New Living Translation (NLT) is published.
A.D. 2001 - The English Standard Version (ESV) is published.

Sources:

Willmington's Bible Handbook.
www.greatsite.com.
www.biblemuseum.net/virtual/history/englishbible/english6.htm.
www.christianitytoday.com/history/i...r-bible-christian-history-timeline.html.
www.theopedia.com/translation-of-the-bible.

Yet 'creation' did not happen within the bible's timeline. Nor is the world how it is described in Genesis, life evolves, animals and plants evolve, they are not created.

Bovine excrement.

Well Raspy has plagarised some sort of list that can be printed out and used to deal with your bovine excrement, plus have something left over for later.

Nah, science paints a different picture to biblical creation, the age and size of the universe, how species evolve, etc, etc....and the evidence is stacked heavily on the side of science, evolution is proven, the theory refers to the means and mechanisms of evolution, not the fact of it, and so on....

So, what is the “bible’s timeline?”

Six literal days of creation, specifying the morning and evening of each day of Creation, and the list of generations beginning with Adam and Eve....Which is not to be semantically transformed into billions of years of microbes followed by multicell evolution in the Cambrian.....etc.

That pretty much sums it up. Doesn’t get more clear than that

I didn't say that. I said that the faith is the same faith.

Genesis 15 gives the account of a pre incarnation appearance of Christ meeting with Abraham, the father of the Christian faith. Paul teaches this very clearly and it is a theme throughout the texts of the OT and NT. Spiritual Israel, the true Israel, is the Israel of faith, the faith of Abraham. In many ways this is pointed out in the complexity of themes throughout scripture when we see that the believer or one who is righteous is not he child of blood but the child of promise.

In Genesis 15 Christ begins to fulfill the promise made in the garden that Eve would bear a Son and that the Son would crush the head of the Serpent. It is one of many steps in the progressive revelation of Christ throughout scripture. Abraham is put into a sleep and cannot participate in the covenant being made. This is purposeful so that Abraham sees that personal responsibility symbolized in the solemn covenant is fulfilled by Christ. This is the covenant of salvation that God makes with mankind. In this covenant many things are beginning to be revealed. One that stands out prominently is Christ's promise that God would do for Abraham, and thus all of the children of faith/promise, what they could not do for themselves in saving mankind from sin and the fall.

It is this truth, seen early in scripture, that Paul addresses in Romans when he begins to teach us the deeper truths of the Gospel, truths found in the OT and fulfilled in the ministry of Christ. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.

theory's proven and skepticisms resolved , can only build ones faith.
at a certain point an awakening occurs and our Creator reveals himself to us continually.

Spiritual Evolution

If you were wrong in both of these assertions….. would you desire to know it?

I doubt it…..you simply don’t know what you are talking about and clearly strive to stay in your cocoon of self-stroking comfortable ignorance.

For example…. Why do you state that the world was created in six literal days? Eisegesis on you part…. Poor scholarship……the biblical word translated to “day” is also translated to be an “epoch” ….also as a “long time.” But. You want to believe it means a “literal day” … so you …. Choose….. not to seek truth and accurate meaning in the Bible.

As has been said before, the word “generation” can refer to years….it can refer to a genetic line….it can refer to an ancestral line. The “Bishop Ussher” chronology is simply incomplete….. but you do not want to accept this biblical fact….

Seek truth rather than be satisfied with error…… but you can’t do that can you? Do you know why?


Should you dare to delve further into truth, look up John 6:66 and try to figure out who left and why.

2 Peter 3:8

Regardless of your assertions, and regardless of your interpretations, and regardless of your extrapolations…Christianity itself began in the 1st century after Jesus died and was resurrected.