Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Hello Gentlemen - I've tried to read most of the posts here before posting myself, but I couldn't wait. I have a newly acquired Ruger M77 458 WM that I bought here on the Fire from DrDeath. According to the serial number it was made in 1978. As you can see, it is in mint condition with a gorgeous piece of wood on it! This is my first 458, but not my first big bore - I have two 45-70s, a Ruger No.1 Tropical and a Marlin 1895. I've been reloading for about 25 years, so reading all the good info here has given me lots of ideas of where I want to go with this beauty. I'm not sure I'm ready for full gusto, baby steps I have a RCBS mold for a 405gr FNGC that I'm hoping will work, as well as an assortment of other cast and jacketed bullets that I use for the 45-70. This thread has been highly entertaining and informative, thanks for sharing your vast knowledge on all things 458!

That's a beauty! Had one just like it. My first .458 and let it get away - should have kept it. Have had a CZ550 and now a Ruger No.1H - this one stays until I can't walk anymore. Pic on the header of my blogs.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

GunLoony88,
Joining us at the Square Table, eh ?
What is your Sir Name ?
I think you might have a Creedmost Match contender if that Circassian walnut is not too heavy.
Anyway, it is about perfect in conformaton for a safari rifle, for anything on the planet.
I missed out on those Ruger M77 RS and "RSC" rifles, having gone with the Ruger No. 1 and the pushfeed Winchester M70 and Remington M700
for my first three factory .458 WinMags, in that order.

I hear they did the Circassian walnut for 1976-1978, after they started making the .458WinMag RS in 1973 ?
A factory letter on the internet shows one made in 1975 in Newport, NH.
One book source said they started the steel bottom metal in 1976 for .458 WM while all the other M77 tang-safety models (since 1968) had aluminum,
though I had always figured the .458 WinMag M77 had all-steel bottom metal from the start.

The barrel profile seems to be a bit slimmer toward the breech on the M77 than the Ruger No. 1,
but do they both have similar muzzle diameter, exclusive of the band for front sight ?
My Ruger No. 1 is 0.815" at 24" muzzle diameter.
Does your bare, naked rifle weigh 9 pounds or 9.25 pounds ?

A set of low Ruger rings for the M77 (a #3 and a #4) weighs in at 4.3 ounces.
With a 6.5-ounce 2.5x20mm you should be under 10 pounds.
Whatever the exact weight, it will be a marvelous shooter.


Your 405gr FNGC will serve you well in the .458 WinMag if you cast it hard and size it to .460" or .461" diameter, +.002-.003" over groove diameter for the .458 WinMag.
Whether your barrel is a Douglas or a Wilson is unknow.
Another unknown is whether it is .458" or .459" in the grooves.
My Ruger No. 1 is 0.459" in the grooves.
0.461" hardcast bullets work well in either 0.458" or .459" grooves that I have tried.
My alloy is BHN 25 and springs back 0.001" on sizing.
I push a 0.463" casting that has been powder-coat painted through a 0.460" base-pusher die with gas check and it comes out 0.461".
It works.
PC paint is preferred over greasers for best results in smokeless .458 WinMag loads.
If you just want to plink with 1400 fps loads, about any alloy and lube combo will work.

Soon you will be flinging 404-gr Shock Hammers at 2500 fps.
Add a good FN solid to that and ...
one rifle, one planet, etc.

Congratulations on that very nice looking rifle.

Sir Ron - not sure I deserve a spot at the Square Table just yet :-)

I have a Leupold 1.5x5 in Ruger low rings that I "borrowed" from my tanger M77 .243 (my first deer rifle) - it may never go back.....

I believe this one is Circassian walnut, but the original box doesn't have RSC on it. Regardless, it's beautiful to me. I haven't weighed it yet, but it's lighter that I expected based on my calibrated arm. It does have a steel floorplate - my .243 has an aluminum one.

Thanks for the info on the cast bullets - I haven't used PC, but it's on my list for experiments. I have about 1000lbs of wheel weights that my Dad scrounged years ago, so I may not be able to get them to a BHN of 25 easily, but I doubt I'll need a bullet to handle 2400fps for a while. Any recommendations on a sizing setup? My dad has a Lyman .458 setup, but as you mention, .460 or .461 would work better.

Mine didn't have the fancy walnut that was still rather light in color, but it had the steel bottom metal. Also, it had a diagonal steel brace in the forearm: one end attached to the barrel and the other farther back into a channel in the forearm that had a bolt through the forearm bottom that could be removed in disassembly of stock from the barreled action. Also the barrel was 22". The rifle looked very unused - not sure if some of what's been described was the work of a gunsmith, but the barrel band sight was in place without any sign of work on it or barrel was noticeable.

But it was, perhaps, the "toughest" rifle I'd ever owned. And accurate with those 500gr Hornady RNs. I used two similar loads for those 500s: 68 grns of H4895 and 69 of RL-15 for just under 2000 fps. At one time I shot six of those into a ragged hole at 100: three each from those two loads. I did shoot a young bear with a reduced load of the 350gr Speer at 2345 fps as it walked away at 70-75 yds. Hit in the liver and bullet came out near back of head removing part of the skull after removing several inches of spine.

I loved that rifle but muzzle blast caused deafness to my right ear from that hunt (I shoot from my left side). So it got traded for my first Ruger No.1 in .45-70. Still, I learned some lessons from that experience that I've talked about in some past blogs.

In any case, a well built and balanced .458 Win is always a good choice. For a handloader, it can serve a lifetime of fun and adventure.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

GL88,
Don't be fearful of trying those wheel weights. More important than BHN is filling up the grooves on your rifle and Sir RC's advice on size is good. Powder coating also is a good thing in the cast rifle load world and the paint does add some size with two coats it seems. The Push through Lee sizer is a good choice, but I don't think they are doing "custom" sizes like .460 or .461 in their shop anymore. Sadly. Here's to hoping your mold drops a nice big .460 bullet and you can Paint it up and enjoy your new magnificent 458 WM.

GunLoony88,
Of course you are worthy. Might as well go ahead and pick your "Nom de Knight."
1.5-5x20mm Leupold in low Ruger rings would be perfect on your rifle.
I don't know if "RSC" was ever marked on the box of an RS with the special wood, 1976-1978 only, just from readings.
Still looking for a box with RSC on it here.
The old clip-on wheel weights can be heat treated to over 30 BHN, if needed.

Like Sir Dennis said:
Shoot as-cast without sizing if they come out of your mould at 0.460"-0.461".
Water-dropping then will give harder WW bullets than air-cooled.
But to apply a gas check, best is to get a simple 0.460" base-pusher sizer from CH4D if LEE is not making them right now.
Might look at NOE too.
Use any reloading press with these push-through sizer dies.
My ".45" sizers are from LEE, good enough, and less expensive than CH4D.

Sir Ron,

As the source for all 458 WM knowledge I suspect you’ll know the answer to my current conundrum.

I was fortunate to source an OEM Win M-70 Safari Express rear sight assembly which will arrive tomorrow. I plan to install it on my Win M-70 Classic 460 G&A as the primary sighting system for my Zim trip.

Do you know the sight radius - rear surface of front sight to rear sight blade - on a Win M-70 Safari Express 24” barrel? I’d like to duplicate the sight radius.

Sir Ron - thanks for the info, collecting quite a bit of data from reading all the past posts. So much info here!!

A little Rifle Loony background - As Mule Deer is one of my favorite gun writers, a lesson learned from him started my quest for a 458 here on the 'Fire about 3 years ago while scanning the Classifieds. I found a chap selling 458WM brass and dies for a good deal, so it started there. So with brass & dies in hand, I start the search for the suitable launch platform. I briefly thought of sending a Mauser 1909 Arg action I have off to be worked on, but when I started calculating the costs, it got outta hand FAST! I'm sure it would have turned out beautiful, but with 2 kids in college, I came to my senses. I started to scan GB every few days for about a year, finding all sorts of interesting ideas. After seeing a few Ruger M77s, my focus shifted there, as the styling just suits me. I found a few, but just couldn't "pull the trigger" as it were. Time went on, then just a couple of weeks ago, low and behold, a fellow member here on the 'Fire had the Ruger above for a great deal, so she now has a new home.

I'll probably never make it to Africa, so the Southern whitetail will be my first quarry. My first "trophy" buck was taken with a Marlin 47/70 using a Hornady 325gr FTX at about 2000fps years ago, so I'll probably focus on the lighter side of 458 to start. I do have some 500gr RN cast bullets saved from my No.1 45/70 loads that should do nicely if I want to shoot through a pine tree or two :-).

If allowed, my "Nom de Knight" name can be Thomas.

More useful techniciana:
A .416 RemMag M70 Classic Safari Express (CT-made) walnut and matte black:
Nominal 24" barrel is actually 23-3/4".
Muzzle to front bead = 1.25"
Breech face to rear sight notch = 4-5/8" (single standing fixed leaf, with insert adjustable with tiny screws on leaf)
Sight radius = 17-7/8" = 17.875"

A .375 H&H M70 Classic Stainless (CT-made):
Nominal 24" barrel is actually 23-3/4".
Muzzle to front bead = 1.25"
Breech face to rear sight notch = 4-1/4" (fold-down single leaf, adjustable with tiny screws on leaf insert)
Sight radius = 18"

A .458 WinMag M70 Super Grade (FN/SC-made):
Nominal 24" barrel is actually 23-3/4".
Muzzle to front bead = 1.25"
Breech face to rear sight notch = 5-9/16" (2-leaf pivoting on base, one up and one down, drift for windage, solid leaves filed for elevation, or change front bead)
Sight radius = 16-15/16 = 16.9375"

Answer: Based on my sample M70s, it varies some, maybe depending on type of rear sight, all front sights same.
17" to 18" would be a good ballpark for sight radius for a "24-inch" barrel.

Sir Thomas,
Yes, Mule Deer/Barsness is a National Treasure. I've got all his books through GUN GACK III, need to check on what the latest is ...
What did he say that got you on the quest for a .458 WinMag ?
You made good choices along the way, congratulations again.

I called Richard Near of Near Manufacturing on the Summer Solstice.
He had what I needed on the shelf.
His Picatinny rails, 20-MOA, stainless steel, nitride black finish,
for an M70 Classic WSM actioned .458 B&M+
and an M98 FN/Parker Hale commercial Mauser .458 WinMag.

For anybody doing Creedmost Match Rifle weight calculations,
those weigh about 4 ounces, for a M70 Classic long action.
I will try to get weights on all three rails when in possession.
They have an integral recoil stop on bottom of rail, super duty.

More trivia:
I weighed a set of two Burris Xtreme Tactical rings, one-inch LOW rings.
They each registered 991.6 grains on a digital scale capable of 1500 grains.
Precise Chinese manufacture, eh ?
Anyway, a set of two of them weighs 4.533 ounces, call it 4-1/2 ounces.
30mm LOW pair of same make = 4.8 ounces.

Recall that a set of LOW Ruger rings (3&4) for M77 = 4.3 ounces
A set of LOW Ruger rings for the No. 1 (3&3) = 4.1 ounces

A 9-pound Ruger No.1 with a 9.6-ounce 1.5-4x20mm Leupold and 4.1 ounces of rings = 9 lbs 13.7 oz.
Creedmost Match worthy and then some.

Sir Ron,

Very helpful. The dimensions you provided for sight radius are very similar to what I had in mind for the 460 G&A and the total rear sight height works quite well with the stock.

Measuring my barrel I note that the diameter at the point where the 6-48 screw which attaches the sight base to it is 0.960”. After calculating the barrel wall thickness (0.251”) a tapped hole of 0.10”-0.120” depth should work - about 4-5 threads engaged - and still leave sufficient steel for safety. Will probably reinforce the installation with Loctite Black Max 480.

Do you have any experience with a sight mounted with a screw at that depth on your 458s?

Sir Khulu,
For a Winchester rear sight base 4-5 threads engaged should do well with your Loctite.
If not: J-B Weld.
I had a Ruger No. 1 quarter rib (rear sight, scope and rings for recoil action-reaction abuse) come off the barrel of a .475 Linebaugh factory Ruger No.
Never a problem after J-B-Welding.

Sir Ron - it was something along the lines of grading the amount of "Rifle Loonyism" someone has. Like "have you ever started a project because you got a good deal on brass?" which is how I got started on this quest :-)

Sir Thomas,

Just saw the photos of you M-77 TS 458 WM. Quite a piece of wood you have there! To my untrained eye it certainly seems like Circassian, with the grain pattern very reminiscent of the Ruger RSMs.

My TS 458 has a totally unremarkable, plain but straight-grained and dense light stock. Its DOM is 1978 and it too has a steel floor plate. These are nice rifles. My biggest peeve is magazine length set at 3.340”. My rifle’s ramp configuration is unfriendly to FP monolithic, so I feed it Barnes RN 500 grain solids when the situation calls for it. However I prefer to shoot Berry plated RN 350s in this one and reserve the FP Solids for the Hawkeye.

Very nice rifle you’ve acquired to launch your Square Table quest. Kudos, Brother Knight. I’ll leave the formal welcome to Sir Ron.

Been there done that, Sir Thomas. Sounds perfectly sane to me.

For Sir Khulu: I was only joking about the "Dirty Finn Rifle" as a substitute for a "Dirty Harry Rifle."

Turns out Finn Aagaard had a "Clean Finn Rifle."
His first .458 WinMag rifle was indeed a Dirty Harry that he cleaned up by removing the ARSE (African Rear Sight Equipment)
and installing the Lyman 48 to use as a ghost-ring peep sight.
I will go load up some historically significant images ...

From Saint Sir Finn's latter-day epistles (1995):






Well, that may make no sense to anyone but me, but my sense of humor likes it,
the Dirty Finn Rifle versus the Clean Finn Rifle made from a Dirty Harry Rifle, heh-heh-heh.

The factory ammo tested in Saint Sir Finn's rifles:



The four rifles used by Saint Sir Finn for chronographing velocities of the factory loads:



The results:



Note the "free-travel distance" in throat of the various rifles.
This would be for free-travel movement of bullet to first contact in the rifling at bullet = groove diameter,
which should be at minimum 0.6725", with no slop in a SAAMI chamber and assuming bullet diameter = groove diameter = 0.458".
Saint Sir Finn's .425 WR rifle re-barreled to .458 WinMag had a very short throat,
allowing higher velocities and pressures.
He thought pressures were never excessive in this rifle or any of his rifles with any and all factory loads he had ever used.

This might be a young Saint Sir Finn on the right below,
sometime after 1967:

Here is the mature Saint Sir Finn, from an earlier epistle, shooting his "Clean Finn Rifle":



Dirty Harry, eat your heart out.