Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters A Close-in Deer Rifle

I sure wish I could find some more of Sell's articles scanned so I could keep them for posterity. I buy all his books as I run into them, but they are not that common where I live.

that is good to know that Sell has wrote that.

the full grown deer averages about 150 lbs, but 200-250 lbs isn't unheard of. black bears go from 100lbs to 700lbs. 10 or so miles from my place, someone shot a bear that weighed 694lbs. my first and only black bear was weighed 396lbs, which was 3/4 mile from my place. i used a Remington m760 in 308 with 150gr Hornady RN and IMR 4064 (2700+fps+/- i think and the distance was about 20 +/- yards).

i never used a Hornady FTX bullet, but my brother swears by them. he uses a Marlin m1895 in 45/70 with 300gr Hornady FTX factory ammo. hard on shoulders, it is!!! i used 200 and 240gr Hornady XTP in a Ruger Super Redhawk (7.5" barrel) in 44 Mag and a hot load of Win296 years ago. it was hard on shoulders too. i shot 5 or 6 deer with them and they were 20-30 yards away from me, except a doe that was 120+/- yards and the shot was thru-n-thru with no expansion. i wish i still that gun!!! man, could she shoot!!! now i have a Ruger Super Blackhawk (4 5/8" barrel) in 44 Mag, but i prefer 44 Specials and 255gr Keith-type bullets and a Skeeter load of Unique. i killed about 4 or 5 does at about 25ish yards.

i have a 1972 Winchester m94 Top Eject in 35/30-30 (JES Reboring) and 200gr RCBS FN GC with 2400/tuft of dacron that goes 1726fps. i've killed three deer with it. 2 does about 25+/- yards and 1 buck, 53 yards away from me. they would "jog" about 15 - 20 yards after the shot, look around and then they gave up the ghost. the shot on the buck was high in the lungs, but i blame that one on me. i guess i jerked the trigger instead of squeezing it. anyway, the back of the lungs were trashed (on all 3 of deer), just a .35 caliber hole(s) and a 1 1/2 - 2i" temporary wound channel.

this buck was shot by a Ruger #1 in 270 Win with 130gr Nosler BT with IMR4320 at about 3000fps. i shot the buck about 10 - 12 feet in the shoulder (there was brush in the way of behind the shoulder shot). the buck ran about 30+/- yards and then it died. while tracking the buck thru the brush, there was NO blood. when i found it, there was NO blood. when i field dressed the buck, there was NO Blood until i penetrated the diaphragm. i found the blood of lung soup and chunks of heart. i found the bullet, er well, small pieces of the bullet. the bullet fragment on the shoulder and it went into the lung cavity and the heart. it did not exit the lung cavity or bruise the off side of the deer. aka, lung soup with chunks of heart.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/FP1RbOG.jpg?1[/img]

it was about the time i decided on the 2800fps method on all calibers of the Nosler BT. when i did 2800fps (on all calibers .257 - .308") the bullet never fragmented, instead the BT mushrooms. i guess that Hornady SST is party to the 2800fps method too. i load the SST into my 7x57 and 270 (both are 140gr SST) but i am on cast binge right now, so i don't know.

tdoyka,

I've killed a bunch of big game with cup-and-core bullets, and still do on occasion. In fact I just published an article on 'em in a recent issue of Sports Afield, citing around 2800 fps as a good maximum muzzle velocity for consistent performance, whether on deer or even larger game.

May have taken more deer with the 150-grain Hornady Spire Point from the .270 Winchester than any other single bullet, handloaded to around 2850 fps, including one 300+ pound mule deer buck--and I started using it several years before the Interlock ring was introduced. Back then Spire Points already had a reputation for being one of the tougher cup-and-cores, and I later learned this was due to Hornady using a somewhat harder lead alloy for the cores than most other bullets. Have also used various Spire PointInterlocks in calibers from .25 to 9.3mm to take deer and quite a bit of larger game, from bull caribou to elk-sized.

But have also taken a bunch of animals with Sierras, usually but not always GameKings, and have probably used the 160 7mm GK started at 2700 fps from the 7x57 to take more deer-sized African "plains game" than any other bullet at ranges out to 400 yards, during 8 safaris. Never recovered one. Am not exactly unfamiliar with Speer Hot-Cors, especially the 105-grain 6mm and 165-grain .30. Have a 165 in my collection that took a running whitetail buck at around 100 yards, using a .30-06 handload that got around 2800 fps. The buck was angling almost directly away, and the bullet end up in the far shoulder, retaining 85% of its weight.

Yes, I also use quite a few "monolithic" bullets for hunting, partly because I live in Montana and they tend to penetrate deeper on elk if the angle is a steep one--but also because they work fine at a wide range of velocities, and much of the local country can result in shots from 25 to 400+ yards. And they do tend to ruin less venison on closer shots, even when started at 3000 fps or more.

The other factor is that due to my job I have to try a wide range of bullets in significant enough numbers to get a good idea of how they work.

Retirement has not fully sunken in yet, huh?
HA!

Wishing you and your bride all the best!

Thanks!

Still am fooling around with firearms, just not as much anymore....

Nice buck, tdoyka. I had almost the same experience with a buck I described about 20 pages ago in this thread. It was a 30-06 180 gr corelokt going considerably slower, though. Less than 10 feet, he ran like a freight train for 50 yards without a heart. Shot behind the shoulder, five small exit holes in a 10 inch pattern, and not even pieces of heart - just red jelly. I think, his heart was mid-beat and full of blood like a balloon like shooting a milk jug full of water at 10 feet. Anyway, that corelokt blew up. They've behaved perfectly for me 30 yards and out.

Brush is a crap shoot. When I was young and dumb(er) I shot a buck through a Christmas tree on top of a mountain. Figured it was only 50 yards and those 180gr round-nose corelokts are brush busters. He was only 5 or 10 feet behind the tree and it was the thin flimsy outer tips of the branches I had to get through. He ran at the shot and not like he had been hit. I ran the bolt, dropped to the irons (we haven't even mentioned see-thru mounts in 20+ pages?!) and put one through his lungs. No evidence that the first shot even touched him. I've also, had good luck with those bullets and brush, so...

Thanks for keeping the Sell stuff coming! Very much enjoying it.

Also, reading a bunch more Mule Deer and thinking about my own 1% or 10% or fill-in-the-blank % rifle. Geedubya's fantastic 30 30 double notwithstanding, that's what we're really talking about. Maybe.

1eyed mule,

Ran my first "brush" test close to 50 years ago, by shooting through a bush where the branches didn't exceed 1/2" in diameter. The bush was 3+ feet thick, and I could just see the aiming point on the target I set up behind it.

Tried two rifles, which were pretty much opposites--a .243 Winchester with the 105 Speer Hot-Cor at around 2900, and a .358 Winchester with the 250-grain Hornady round-nose at around 2300.

The .243 did noticeably better, and my guess at the time (and still is) that the smaller-diameter bullets had less chance of hitting brush.

But the owner of the .358 had once shot through a 6" diameter lodgepole pine and killed the mule deer behind the pine, using a 250-grain Winchester factory load. Wouldn't bet on the .243 doing the same thing.

in the early to mid '90s, i had it in my head that a premium bullet is as good as gold. i bought 85gr Barnes X bullet in 243 Win. i eventually (with many powders) got it to shoot about 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" at 100 yards(5 shots/bench). deer season came and i shot a doe some 30 yards with it. a doe that ran 300 some yards thru the brush and mountain laurel which caused me to be on my knees and hands looking for the doe. at last, i found it. i drug her out on my knees. i field dressed her and i was surprised. the entrance was like the exit wound. in-between it looked as if i shoved a pencil thru. the X bullet never expanded. well my dreams of a gold bullet were washed away by reality. i gave up on the premium bullet and since then it is a C&C or cast bullet. there was a time that i dreamed about going West for muleys and elk, while going up north for caribou, moose and grizzly bear was on my mind. after my stroke (had it when i was 39yo) caused my right leg and arm to be about 20 - 25% good, my dreams and my job went away. but that's alright, now i'll drive Polaris utv to within 50 - 60 yards to my spot for deer. my brother built my "ground blind" and put in a swivel chair. i'll sit there for hours.

my collection of used bullets is close to zero or none. it was either thru-n-thru or fragmented.

tdoka,

Yeah, the first Barnes Xs were not all that accurate--and didn't open reliably. I tested my first, both on targets and game, in 1989--if I recall correctly. They didn't group very well, even in otherwise very accurate rifles--and didn't open reliably.

I got to now Randy Brooks around 10-12 years later, and he acknowledged the problems. He said the major problem he had early on was getting consistent copper--often supposedly "pure" copper was harder than it should have been, which not only caused expansion but accuracy problems.

He couldn't afford to buy more consistent copper until the late 1990s--and that's when I found X-Bullets (not the present TSXs) started grouping better and expanding more reliably. This included the 120-grain X-Bullet started at around 3000 fps from a 6.5x55--which grouped three shots into 1/2" or so at 100 yards--and expanded very well on a pronghorn buck at just under 400 yards. (There were some other animals taken along the way.) Also has great luck both in accuracy and expansion with the 250-grain 9.3 around that time.

Anyway, the accuracy and expansion problems were totally solved with the introduction of the Tipped Triple-Shock X-Bullet in 2007. Eileen and I have used a bunch of them since then, and I've also seen around 100 more animals taken with them by fellow hunters. They work very well but it took a while to work out the details. Just as it has with various other bullets.

Have a big tackle box filled with bullets recovered from big in calibers from .224" on up to .40+--and hunting notes that describe how each worked, along with the specific animal, range, muzzle velocity, etc.

Haha! The ole ".358 bunker-buster"!

my grandpap and my dad (RIP) had a Remington m760 in '06, while my uncle had a Remington m7600 in '06. i had a Remington A,B AND CDL and a Mountain rifle and a Savage m116 with adjustable muzzle brake in '06. we shot Remington 180gr RN factory ammo. as a matter of fact, my dad bought 5000 180gr Remington RN cartridges after Remington decided not to make them that year (i think it was in the late '80s or early '90s). we could not find them. there was 180gr Rem spire points, but no round noses. when they do the RN, my dad went to gun store and ordered 5000 cartridges. he shot only 400-500 cartridges. so i got the Remington m760 and about 4500 cartridges. my son has my grandpap's '06 and he comes to me every year to "borrow" the a box or two of 180gr RN.

and yes, both of the Remington's are see thru sights.

i bought a early war Arisaka Type 99 with a Lyman or Redfield aperture sight in 30'06. even after 2 or 3 years, i still have shoot it.

Ain't that some screwy stuff?

Nice gun GWB.

Cool, practical.

Even if hammer SxS, 30-30, and red dot don't seem like something you would
see together.

i know that bullet didn't group well and i'm ok with that. i didn't know about the copper until a few years ago.


i luv the Husqvarna m46 in 9.3x57. it is a cast bullet dream. i use 280gr RN GC and my favorite 275gr WFN GC with IMR4895 that goes around 1800-1900fps. i've shot 6 or 7 deer with the 275gr and 2 or 3 deer with the 280gr. the 9.3x57 really puts the deer down, i'm talking a DRT (dead right there). this is my second favorite rifle (#1 being a Winchester m94 in 35/30-30).

9.3x57




i had my gunsmith D&T for a scope, bent the bolt handle, put a Buehler 2 postion safety and a Dayton-Traister cocking piece/speed lock striker spring (aka cock on opening kit). i had a hard time using the original cock on closing, being one handed.

This girl is named GG. She knows her name but will not eat from my hand.

The Whitetail does try to bully her but she is rather tough. I have thought a 125 grain cast bullet.327 Federal from the Henry would be enough.




These young Axis hinds are considerably tougher when a body shot is the choice. They are regularly taken with .17 Hornets and neck shots.




Just a few years ago it was easy to start a conversation like this in a San Angelo coffee shop or Cafe. Today the Man Bun prevails. 

I will say with non-tipped cup and core like speer hc, hornady il, sierra ph have take a lot deer sized game at close range with 270, 280, 243 100-140 gr bullets. Always
worked great and normally full penetration on deer including mule deer and northern whitetails. On bigger pigs normally do not exit but still penetrate plenty even on shoulder and raking shots. These all going between 29-3100 fps. Tipped bullets like btips/sst are a bit more explosive in this velocity range and I have migrated to bonded versions for the poly-tipped version but lower velocity would help

Lou

My mauser in 45-70