I've been re-reading Francis Sell's Book, ]The Deer Hunter's Guide. It got me to thinking about his ideas on picking a good deer stalking gun. I thought I'd ask y'all what you think.

Here is Sell and his stalking gun.



He describes it as "A light handy combination for brush shooting-- short 20 inch barreled, Mannlicher-stocked , 6.5X55 Rifle with a 2X scope."

I've got two rifles that vaguely fit this.

The first is a bobbed MAS 36 shooting 7.5X54 (it's nearly identical to a 308 WIN). It has the full stock, but no scope.



I have not had this one out all that much. However, I have to say the Frogs had a winner of an idea. If the Germans had just attacked the Maginot Line and we'd seen a second world war in the trenches, this was the tool to use. I use 150 Grain Hornady Interlock SPs.

The second is my TC Compass in 7mm-08 with 139 grain Hornady IL SPs. It sports a 3-9X40 Bushnell.



I have not taken all that much with it, but it's has DRT'd everything I've shot.

It was unclear to me why Sell picked what he did, except to say I dig the idea of a fast-mounting, fast-swinging rifle. However, I don't know how a Mannlicher stock figures into that. I also wonder the choice of 6.5X55 over something a bit beefier like 308 WIN. When building up a short-range deer getter is y'all's preference for small and fast or big and slow.

Truthfully, my days of schlepping through the forest in pursuit of Cervids are probably on the wane. I haven't had a decent schlep in over a decade. I much prefer static setups. In our part of the world deer hunter density exceeds deer density and wandering around during season is not such a good idea. I've got 200 acres to hunt, but I can pussyfoot from the house to the back in less than a half-hour. It's much better to set up somewhere and wait for the neighbors to scare something onto the property.

Hear me out. I think his choice was likely because its what he had and he liked it. I can think of no reasons a Mannlicher stock or a fixed 2x would be choice with today's options. On the flip side, I can see why a 6.5mm bullet my be choice for areas with brush. The bullet is narrower and thus has less frontal surface area which reduces the chances of coming into contact with vegetation. Threading with a smaller needle, per se. It is also lower recoil, so it is easier to follow-up shots on moving game.

A modern ideation may be something more like a Remington Model 7 chambered in .260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor with a Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x.

A Remington Model 7 in 308 or 7mm-08 with a Leupold 1.75-6 would be the modern version :-)

Where is the scope on that rifle? I can't see it.

Jim

I'd go with something with a bayonet lug. Never get closer than that.
Get an actual Mannlicher Schonaur or however you spell it.
Very fine rifles. Peep sight it.

Hard to beet a short light and most importantly well fitted 308 or simular with a nice low power or fixed scope.

This is strictly coincidence.
I shot my first deer with an old Ruger Deerstalker. One of the tube fed ones. It's what my Dad had, and it fit my small frame. It flattened a running whitetail like a bus.

I've carried Marlin 336's and Win 94's. I think the 94 carries easier, and is faster to shoulder and aim. IMO it sets the bar for any other repeater. The fastest long gun I've ever handled was a single shot break action 20ga. I can't recall the brand. Loaded with slugs, I doubt anything could beat it.

I have the described rifle in the classifieds.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...rch/true/re-sisk-rifles-308#Post18249323

I bought this Ruger Hawkeye RSI .308 this year. It has a fixed 3x with a heavy duplex. My load is 150gr RN bullets over Varget. It's light, handy, and points naturally.

Did a lot of still hunting in days gone by and due to the nature of woods and scrub density never took a shot over 30 yards. Whacked a truck load of deer and hogs doing that. My favorite was a Win 94 Trapper, .30-30. Second in line as time went by was a T/C Contender Carbine w/2.5X glass and also in .30-30. Last was a Ruger 77/44 with a red dot. There were no survivors.

Also did a bit of the craft with an Ithaca 37 20 ga. and #3 buckshot. Same conclusion.

The old 1920 Savage was a pretty cool one as well. Slim and easily handled. Today, anything Kimber feels pretty close to right!

Sell lived in Oregon and hunted blacktails in the dripping jungles of the Pacific Northwest. I've spent much of the last 30 years hunting the same deer under the same conditions. Our deer are small and shots are usually within 100 yards, so almost anything will work. At the end of his hunting career, Sell was using a wildcat based on the 25-35 that was about like a 257 Roberts.


Most shots in Pacific Northwest blacktail hunting are offhand. Your answer is just below the front sight in that picture: the steel nose cap. Bolt-action carbines float like crazy on fast offhand shots. The Mannlicher stock and steel nose cap put some weight at the muzzle where it helps settle things down.

I've used revolvers, lever guns, shotguns, and bolt actions. For me, a 22" 308 bolt gun with a 4x scope and cheap 150-grain factory ammo works about as well as anything. 4-5 MOA will put meat on the table IF your rifle balances well and fits you.


Okie John

I hunt this way mostly and my go to is a Winchester 94 30-30

Close in deer rifle?
The best rifle invented for that is well over 100 years old and is a lever action 30-30.

Your French MAS 36 is 7.5 French not 7.62x54R. And it's not a good choice for hunting because it has no safety

He had a rear bridge peep on there in that picture didn’t he?
Either one works for me. Good point about that muzzle weight being an asset. Yup.

Z. H. Sell 3 by Steve Zihn, on [bleep]
OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA by Steve Zihn, on [bleep]
IMG_20190918_192827625 by Steve Zihn, on [bleep]
2018 #1 Ant. Buck by Steve Zihn, on [bleep]
OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA by Steve Zihn, on [bleep]
IMG_20151228_081801 by Steve Zihn, on [bleep]

Savage 99 - full length custom cherry stock, peep sight in .25-35 tomcat (a brainchild of Sell - although someone along the way reamed it out to .250-3000AI which isn’t all bad). It’s a sweet handling rifle just like he might have invisioned?!

PennDog

I've thought for a long time about replacing the scope on my Model 70 Featherweight 308win with a receiver sight. Then a couple threads with all the pertinent info showed up in the Win section. What's saved me from having to leave the couch, is it would still be a long action with a mag plug.

From here I can maybe see the Swede's, and Rem 7's and 600's easier than from the work bench.

One shot is most likely all your going to get. IF you can see the iron sights well enough a lever action has been getting deer and other game to the freezer for a long time. I can't see irons so a single shot in 38/55, 405 a, 35 Whelan, 375 H&H and a low power scope would be my choice

Sell used a number of rifles in his career. He killed 125 deer with two 25-35 carbines. Later his rifle was a model 71 .348. He also used a HVA stocked similar to the 6,5. It was in .358. He built the 6.5 later in his career and finally came back to the .25-35 TC mentioned earlier in the thread. Pretty interesting guy.

I like the concept and use something similar. Most of my hunting in in thick brush and close, but I still want a flat shooting precision rifle to thread bullets through small openings. And I want optics to see those openings in poor light.

An 18-20" barrel with a scope with no more than 3X on the bottom end is about right. Cartridge doesn't matter much but I like 6.5CM, 7-08 or 308. Any of those zeroed at 100 yards won't have the bullet more than 1" high or low out to 130ish yards. That combined with 1 MOA or better will thread bullets through openings. I know 30-30 iron sighted rifles can work but a 2-4MOA rifle with trajectory 2-3" above and below line of sight is going to hit more brush. Especially when you can't see it.

Flat trajectory is probably more important at close range in brush than in the open. Standing out it the open you can always lob bullets in that are several feet high at some point.

A Winchester 94 3030 Win. would be near perfect

Yes, there is a reason for a "Mannlicher" stock on a short-barreled bolt-action: It puts more weight forward, so helps the rifle hold steadier offhand--which is often the shooting position when hunting slowly through thicker cover. I know this from owning and hunting with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer in 6.5x54 MS for several years.

Have written about this aspect of balance in short-barreled rifles ("carbines") before, and its also the reason the Winchester 1894 .30-30 "carbine" became to so popular: When filled with cartridges it also provided more weight-forward. And yes, I know this from owning and hunting with several Winchester (and Marlin) lever-action "carbines."

A Remington Model 7 does NOT balance as well for offhand shots.

Savage 99 in 300 savage

20” Remington Model 7 in .358 for me.

Turdy-turdy

Or a short-barreled .357 mag in a ‘92 repro.




P

760/7600 carbine for the win.

Savage 219 in .30-30:


It handles much like a shotgun, which it could be with a quick change of barrels.

This.

Or a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem

I worked my way logging up the Coast Range from the Humboldt in CA to Neah Bay WA back in my youth. I was never a very prolific or diehard hunter, but worked with local guys who were. The way I remember it, this is in the '60's, the Columbia Blacktail were to be found in the many clearcuts or on the edge of same, the more it rained the more likely they were to be found in relatively open areas. Deer or man don't hang out under big trees that gather drops the size of dimes. Now if hunting pressure was heavy, yeah, they'd keg up in the thick stuff...great place for carbines and Mannlicher styles. So most of the serious hunters I knew or went with, carried regular scoped rifles capable making shots across the canyons and or the big clearcuts. There were local preferences of course, Sav 99's in .300 owned Astoria and SW Washington, the Chehalis/Willapa area had lots of sporter .303 Brits, mostly due to Blackbirds Store in Chehalis selling them for 49 bucks, ready to hunt.
That is just what I observed. I'm not taking anything away from Mr Sell, I'm sure he's killed more bucks than I have mosquitoes.

I can shoot my 760 & 7600 offhand better than any other rifle I own or have ever shot.

To me the M1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer is the ultimate. In fact I found a dandy one a couple days ago and like a fool walked away. I shall correct that on Monday. Thanks for the impetus.

I've owned a couple and regret letting them go. Time to correct that. Been doing a lot of that of late.

One of Melvin's Model 20's would work equally well close and far...

My Savage Axis left hand 350 Legend loaded with my my handloads of a 165 grain FTX and 25 grains of H110. Deadly out to 150 yards.

Ron

You've forgotten more about the 1903 MS than I will ever know...but I did discover something regarding the bore dimension discrepancies. A lot of guys, including myownself, tried .266 ish Carcano dimensioned bullets (usually without much improvement or joy). I gave up and used some Nosler Partitions, got better results but not quite what I had hoped. A friend gave me a bag of Privi Partizan 156 semi round noses, the most unlikely charge of 39gr of the much unloved H380 in Norma cases. Bingo, a 3 moa rifle shrinks to about 1.3, at a very respectable 2,340 fps. It's worth a try if you are disappointed in the results of more traditional load recipes.

I hunt much the same way. I hunt tall grass and cat tail marshes . I hide in trees and ambush them. A light gun is very important. Last deer I got I had the gun raised for several minutes . Dont laugh,, unless ya want to, but I was so tired I could hardly keep the gun still. I use my new Ruger American comapct with 18" barrel in .243 Win. The compact is important, the caliber does not seem to matter.

I've got one that sort of fits, M7 MS with 20" barrel in .350RM with a Swarovski 1.25-4X on it:



It recently shed some weight and the Manlicher stock in favor of a Manner CF stock:



Does well in the thick stuff, but also has enough oomph and flat enough trajectory to work in clear cuts.

I probably don't anymore. I would feel comfortable with any of these. None over a 20" bbl.

gnoahhh and flintlocke are on track! The Mannlicher-Schoenauer's were developed for exactly the usage the OP is taking about. There are many other suitable designs that work as well, but none better in my opinion!

flintlocke, I've had good luck accuracy wise with several bullets in my 1903 but now stick with the 160 gr Hornady RNs and 156 Prvi RNs because they both feed properly and others don't. I have also settled on JB's load of 40 gr of H4831 for both bullets. I wish I could still slip through the woods like I used to do, but at age 74 with very poor balance and bad knees I tend to spend 95% of my time looking at where I step instead of where the deer are. But every now and then the M-S still gets it done!

Have two rifles, a Steyr Classic Mannlicher in 6,5X55, and a new Henry Bigboy 45-70. Retirement property, Arkansas, no shot beyond 40 yards in the woods either work well. Both have irons and a low power scope as Arkansas has a point requirement for bucks and my old eyes are not what they used to be. Short barrels, nice weight when quick shouldering. Fast on target. Second shots not really practical. If you miss the first one, there will be no second one. I compare it to grouse hunting.

I have two 1903s, both measuring .268 groove diameter. I tried the Carcano bullets too, but couldn't even get them to chamber. So far I've had best luck with the soft Hawk 160 RN bullets.

Model 1905 in 9x56.....



M94 in 25-35....

In my opinion fit of the rifle to the shooter is much more important than caliber. Within reason, cartridge doesn’t matter.

Also, I want an optical sight. I am a big fan of, have and have used receiver sighted rifles all my life, but nothing is faster than a 1 power scope, properly set up, with coarse crosswires.

When I next go walking the woods after deer it will be with my Guide Gun with 1-4, my 99 in .303 with a tang sight, or my ( original type) Ruger 44 carbine with a red dot of some sort. All have proven their utility in such circumstances to my satisfaction repeatedly.

Get an nice compact 308win bolt action or if you prefer an leveraction get an savage99, BLR, Henry long-range all available in 308win.

Personally I have the Savage 99, BLR, and my lefty Ruger scout rifle. All 308win and perfect for a left hander like me. Why 308win? Simple, it's well known, available, and it does the duty near or pretty far and it can fell game much larger than deer.

I too remember F Sell's article in Gunsport back in late 60's or early 70's detailing the metamorphis of a 336A into the 25 tomcat with a receiver sight. It being the end all as a brush stalking rifle...mb

Keep the pics coming guys. Some really cool stuff. Thanks.

Sav 99 30WCF

Definitely not traditional but the mini 14 in 6.8 SPC would be a good choice. Shorter than most , accurate enough and very handy

I am very much enjoying the Trijicons on these......

3.25 MOA Red Dots, variable brightness.



Merkel 141 Double, 30-06 Sringfield




Merkel 141, 8 x 57JRS


both @ +/- 65 yds,

I got lucky and scored an Axis hunt beginning on 4/1. I can take a Stag and two does.

Plan on using this on at least one.......




H. Burgsmuller Double, 405 Winchester



ya!

GWB

I'm worried if I get a .308win everthing else will collect dust.

From pushing deer (or elk in this case) out of their beds at close range in the timber:




To taking cross the draw shots that are in the mid 400 yard long range, I find that my little customized 20" .308 is perfect for such things.




It truly is the "All Around/Practical rifle that I envisioned. If someone asked me to go hunt with them and said it was going to be in an environment where the shot opportunities would be close and fast, I would grab this little .308 without hesitation.

My favorites are Winchester 100s, either the 19" carbines or a rifle with a bobbed barrel, and the Ruger 44 International with 1.5-5x20 Leupolds or Weaver K1.5s.

My friend in NH who is a tracker in the Benoit/Bernier mold has convinced me that a K1.5 with a post and cross-hair reticle is a lot better scope for close shots at moving game than most people give it credit for. He buys all of the K1.5s that he can find with condition and price in sync and if they don't come to him with a PCH reticle, he sends them to Iron Sights, Inc., in Tulsa to be refurbish and the reticle changes to a PCH. Certainly not an all-purpose scope, but within that particular niche it is something to consider.

I am in agreement with the 308 Winchester. I started with a Remington model 600 Mohawk in 308 with a Leupold 3 X 9.

For the past several years I have used a 22” 308 Win barrel on an Encore frame with a Leupold 3 X 9 VX-R with firedot reticle. It’s a great rifle to carry in the woods almost a perfect setup.

Closest thing I have right now. Marlin Trapper 45-70



My next choice would be a 760/7600 carbine with a 1-6 power scope.

I’m thinking this one might do the trick for close cover deer and elk.

Marlin 1894 converted to 480 Ruger.

I've got many favorites. Depends on the day and mood.

Or a Browning BLR in .308 or even Mo Betta .358 Win

I think I may have a dilemma....I have a Ruger M77 RSI in 250-3000 with a 1.5-5x Leupold scope. With the scope turned down to 1.5 I can pretty well shoot it with both eyes open. I don't consider the .250 to be a hammer, but it puts Texas whitetails down pretty well.

I also have a Remington Custom Shop Model 7 in a laminated Mannlicher stock. It's a 7mm-08 with a 2.5-8x Leupold. It shoots most anything I feed it into the same 1.5" group, and if I stay with one load it'll stay under an inch all day. It has a Boone & Crockett reticle, so anything up to maybe 300 yards is a chip shot. Lots of versatility here!

Then there is the Marlin 1894 .44 Mag with pretty much the same attributes as the 1894 Winchester within about 100 yards. I've been considering putting a peep sight on it, but a red/green dot may be a good option too. It still wears the factory sights right now. Would it break the rules to put a 21st century sight on a 19th century gun??

Eeny, meeny, miney, moe...

My Marlin 444 with a 22 inch barrel, with a 1.5 x 4.5 shotgun scope on top sure worked pretty darn well in my years hunting in Northern MN swamps, in temps as low as 30 below zero.... sometimes It didn't matter which side of a sapling the deer might be on...

You're right on both points. I stand corrected.

For many years I hunted a wooded area on the edge of a swamp with the worst briars you can imagine. Max shots were 40 yards and you wouldn't want to track a deer in there. I used an H&R 45/70 single shot and a Ruger 99/44 semi auto, both hand loaded full throttle. Both wear low power scopes, are great walking around guns and deer hammers.

They don't have to be "stubbs" to work...Two closest were 4 or so big steps and another around 20 yards. Had it cut down to 21 inches. Balances better and goes 7.3 empty.

I thought they were designed primarily for alpine hunting, easy to carry while climbing and the long forend makes using the rifle as a climbing aid easier. That doesn't reduce their virtues as brush guns.

I’ve drooled over Sell’s little carbine since the 60s, and remember the piece (one anyway) about the custom Marlin he built late in life. Reduced recoil, IIRC, was at least part of the reason he built it. George Mattis, who wrote Whitetail, Fundamentals and Fine Points for the Hunter, used a Model 94 carbine with the old forward-mounted Redfield 2x, and was, “aware of and willing to accept its limitations”. That’s a fine book BTW, well worth seeking out and acquiring and deserves a spot on the shelf along with Sell’s and Koller’s signature volumes.

Brother, I’m right there with you on walking cautiously in the woods. I’m nursing a bum knee right now, likely the product of a long, difficult deer hauling last season. Takes a looooonng time to heal these days. I just picked up a set of trekking poles to help me hobble after turkeys next month. They work great in the yard, we’ll soon see how the handle terrain.

Francis Sell probably had a Cascade Snap Shooter receiver sight on his rifle.
Sell had a hand in the development of the Snap Shooter and wrote of the sight in several articles including the Handloader September 1982 article on the .25-35 Tomcat.

Sell also had the sight on his Husqvarna chambered for the .30 Short Ackley Magnum. Sell wrote about the rifle and cartridge in the 1961 Gun Digest article: The 10% Rifle.
Francis Sell was an interesting and well rounded man. He was a genuine Gun Crank and knowledgeable about firearms and cartridges.

I formed a lot of my opinions about small game hunting cartridges and rifles from Sell and Vernon Megee. In the 1960’s I had my nose buried in the Arms and The Man and the early American Rifleman magazines. Sell had articles in all of the magazines and you had to hunt for them. This was the days of iron sights and low powered scopes. Pre Red Mist.
Here is a picture of Sell in the July 1958 issue of Guns with his Husqvarna. I was disappointed it was not a Model 64 or 71.

Cascade Snap Shooter on Marlin

Cascade Snap Shooter on

Franscis Sell My Favorite Gun

my blood trail rifle for close shots or farther away is a plain Jane 30-06 Browning S.S. BLR /1-6 Burris scope

KInd of funny you have a "blood rifle"'... I have a gun I always called my meat gun. Seems every time I take out that boring old .270Win Rem. 700 ADL I get something, but keep wanting to take out my newest gun instead.

It don't get any better than a .30-30 lever action carbine.

Perfect for me, is my 9.3x57 Husqvarna. 20" barrel, express sights & 232gr bullet at 2250 fps. For close up stalking, it's perfect.

I use a Remington 660 carbine in .243 Winchester with a Timney trigger and a 2x7 Leupold.

blood trails are from friends and the youth hunters my 257 Weatherby mag. has always killed bucks very quickly but my Ruger #1 is a good deer stand rifle but clumsy in the brush so that`s when the BLR is used on blood trails.

The Rem 600 in 308 that I used for black tail in the woods of western Wash. worked fine for me.
It would still work fine for deer and hogs here in the south.

That's a nice rifle, right there!

I like these a lot. Beautiful rifles.
My close in rifle is much more pedestrian then these but it seems to work.

Here's a "close-in" deer rifle I used to own till it was traded to a friend. He won't trade it back so now I have another in 30-06 on the way.

Bbl will be cut to 20" and Williams FP added.

Toss up 35Rem...350 Rem Mag

Forgot this. Might be my favorite.

Ruger American Predator in 358. Grice special.

Some real nice walking rifles you folks have. A close in rifle to me is all about fit and balance. No grabby recoil pads no slings hanging or large scopes. I do like longer barrels for the sight radius and forward weight to steady me up shooting off hand.

All my close in rifles are the same as my far rifles. they all work well

Nice Schoenauer SS.

I'll take this for a walk in the woods any day. Custom build on a tweaked #1 action. 300 Savage

screenshot program

For slipping through the woods:

My favorite is a 21" barreled .358 Win with a 1.1-5x24.

The one I use the most is a 22" barreled .308 with a 3-10x42.

Occasionally I'll carry a .35 Rem 336 with XS ghost ring.

The one I should carry, is a lightweight AR in 350 legend with a 1-4 scope with a 2 point sling....but I'm just a bolt junkie and didn't talk myself into carrying it last season.

Low light is a problem with iron sights around here. Our days are very short during deer season. Rain and overcast skies almost every day shorten them even more. In thick woods under those conditions, a scope adds significant hunting time to each end of the day.


Okie John

A long time favorite of mine is this 20.5" barreled Model 70 9.3x62, which works just as well on a buck 250 yards across a muskeg as it does on a brown bear at 5 yards. With 286 gr partitions any angle is a good angle, and they don't wreck meat badly. I switch back and forth between the Talley peep and a scope. Last year I discovered the Trijicon Accupoint 1-4, which has proven to be my best woods scope by far.

Very important considerations. Low light would for sure be an influence during my intended use.

That is sweet.

You are correct, Pappy. The thing is that alpine hunting conditions require much the same features as those of the OP's, only the terrain is more vertical. Both favor short, light, well balanced rifles. I had seen pictures of 1903s for years and thought the bolt handle being amidship would make the rifle awkward and clumsy. About 4 years ago I ran across this one at an estate sale and picked it for some reason. When I did, the clouds parted, the sun shined through, and the birds began to sing. The thing felt like a fine shotgun for upland birds...like it was a part of my arms.

This handling characteristic is the common element for alpine and stalk hunting in close cover. There are many rifle configurations that meet this characteristic and the M-S is only one of them. I have several others that generally fit this description but the M-S is my favorite.

There's a beauty, right there. I have another, similar setup on an old 721 action. 9.3x62



I wish it had a straighter comb, but it isn't a deal breaker as it sits & the recoil impulse rolls it quite nicely back & up.

I have been using a Rossi 92 in 45 Colt. I needed a scope due to aging eyes or wear glasses, I chose the former, a 2x Burris scout scope. The little carbine is light and hits hard. My thick brush is seldom thin enough to see more than 50 yards and mostly less. It is so thick you have to cut trails through it before season so you don't have to crawl through it. It is a feat to sneak up on them in their beds.

Hunting the western edge of the Adirondacks ALL of my deer rifles are suitable for close in.

Two Savage 99s. And sometimes you can get more than one shot off when surprised up close with these (been up to 4 on running deer, and yes I got the deer, a well broken in 99 can be fast!):
1923 99F type 1, 30/30, takedown, 20 in barrel, Redfield receiver sight. And this 100 yr old rifle is very well broken in.
1956 99F, 300 Sav, Williams receiver sight.

Two short action bolt guns. These are the one-shot rifles:
Kimberly Montana, .308, Leupold VariX II 2-7x33.
Remington 700 Classic 300 Sav, barrel cut down to 22in, VX2 2-7x33.

You know, I've been cogitating about the comments in this thread, including my own. Looking back over my last 50+ years of hunting, I have used many different rifles to kill a lot of deer. Some were specialized, most were not. I can't say that I ever failed to take a deer with one rifle when I would have taken it with a different type rifle, at least I can't think of one right off.

I think it is as much to do with the shooter's familiarity with the rife as the rifle's characteristics. In the early 80s I pieced together my first 7X57 using a Mark X action and a blem Fajen full stock. It was heavy and of medium length, but I carried it exclusively for 2 or 3 years and kinda 'grew' into it. I ended up making shots on running deer with that rifle that I still hardly believe. Being familiar with your rifle can make up for a lot!

Lots of amazing rifles and stories in this thread!

"Close-in deer rifle" for me is a Ruger American in either 7.62x39 or 300 BLK with an Aimpoint Micro H1 red dot sight...or 4x scope. May go with the Trijicon Accupoint 1-4 as well here some day.

Just started using their 3-9x40 with amber triangle/post reticle and like it a lot. It is currently on a 1948 Winchester Model 70 which is of course not a close in deer rifle

I have never had a carbine that fit me so perfectly as the Husqvarna 456 and when I shoulder, it is looking at the target as an extension of me. No, the action isn't anywhere as smooth as my Mannlicher-Schoenauers but, it comes on target quicker and is lighter. I load the .30'06 to .300 Savage or .30-30 velocity, if not using cast bullets, for my close in hunting.

Marlin 1895GS .45-70



Pair of 7600 Carbines running a fall trapline (.30-06 and .35 Whelen)




7600 Carbine .35 Whelen, Marlin 1895GS .45-70, Remington Model 8 35 Rem, Browning Model 71 Carbine .348 Win

A stalking rifle sure reads like a synonym for a still hunting rifle. It isn’t the way most of us hunt deer these days because if most of you are like me, walking around in the woods during deer season just gets “your” deer killed by another guy on a stand somewhere up ahead. Anyway, a good stalking rifle needs to fit. My 99F .300 Savage fits me way better than my bolt actIon 7mm-08, yet I’ll use that bolt action because I’m a sniper type, not a stalker. As mentioned the cartridge choice is unimportant provided it is adequate without being over powerful. Brush deflection happens, so something that is reasonably fast for a following shot I’d think is a plus. The Benoit guys did pretty well with 760/7600 carbines with peep sights and the ability to keep the rifle shouldered chambering a second round and the lighter weight of those carbines I’m sure was a consideration.

I see you had the smith ditch the ears on the receiver, a handsome choice, and I wouldn't be surprised if it helps the accuracy, simplifies the bedding anyway.

Very nice.

I wish Ruger extended their scope base back over the action. I like that.

DF

"It was unclear to me why Sell picked what he did, except to say I dig the idea of a fast-mounting, fast-swinging rifle. However, I don't know how a Mannlicher stock figures into that. I also wonder the choice of 6.5X55 over something a bit beefier like 308 WIN. When building up a short-range deer getter is y'all's preference for small and fast or big and slow."

Man y long years ago when I lived in California, I did most of my deer hunting in the northwest corner of the stat which is thick rain forest. One rifle was a badly bubbaed 1903 Springfield, another a 94 Winchester 30-30 and later a 1903 Mannlicher in 6.5x54. Then in late 1960 I went in the Air Force and did very little hunting until I became a civilian again in 1964. I hunted with the Mannlicher way up at the rain forest again but also in other parts of the state that was more open. There I used a 30-06 most of the time. In 1968 I moved to Nevada and hunted with the Mannlicher much of the time. I just loved the light little rifle especially at the higher lattitudes. I was a heavy smoker at the time. In 1975, after a successful hunt north of Elko, I stopped at a gas station in Elko to gas up the truck and have a well needed pee. When I got back the little Mannlicher was gone. Stolen. I tried for years to find another but no such luck. I got job transfer to Arizona which gave me a noticeably higher paycheck but could not find a replacement rifle. I saw quite a few that were nice on the outside but corroded bores from using corrosive primed ammo.
One day I saw an ad for a Ruger 77 RSI with a fairly low price so I called and went to take a look. It was chambered to the .308 and it was in very good shape. I asked the guy why the low price? Is there something I should know? He said, "It don't shoot worth schitt." I asked for details which he gave but I'd decided I'd buy that rifle regardless. You see I'd looked at a light switch on his wall, closed my eyes and snapped the rifle to my shoulder and opened my eyes. The crosshair was smack dad in the middle of the button for the switch. I tried a few more times with the same result so I decided that rifle was coming home with me. We talked reloading and hunting a bit and $200 poorer when I left with the gun, scope, several boxes of factry and twice fired brass plus the reloading dies and a very big grin on my face. It's the rifle I've posted about that took a little over two years to find a load I could hunt with but I did and that rifle has been hunted hard. I've taken deer with it from about 30 feet to 250 yards and no way will I sell that one. My wife tried to claim it as hers so through a stroke of luck found number two That was her rifle About a year after that I fell into another and just couldn't turn it down. I would love to find one more, but in 7x57 as I've been playing with that cartridge for a while. The other three are all chambered to the .308 Win.

PJ

A little off the beaten path here, but the scaled down T/C Seneca makes a fine little rifle for the thick stuff. This one's a .45.

Ruger made a non-cataloged run of tang safety 77 RSIs in 7x57 in 1986. #770-828xx is on a shelf somewhere. Lipsey's also has sold their limited runs of stainless RSIs more recently.

I could slum this one!

I forgot I owned that book. IIRC, it was a good read. Will have to read that again.

I've come to think of Francis Sells as being the west coast version of Larry Koller.

Yep! Good analogy.

Bearrr264 had an extensive correspondence with him back in the mid-1980s regarding his 257 Tomcat wildcat cartridge in the Marlin 336. I read some of his letters to Dave and they all made good points.

This is my version of a lightweight, light-recoiling rifle for an old man. Howa Mini 6.5 Grendel in a Pendleton stock with a Trijicon Credo HX 1-6.

Need to talk to Wayne York about a Mannlicher version…..

If 'm walking the thick stuff I got a first gen Ruger .44 Carbine shooting 240 gr JSP at a bit over 1800 fps. Short, fast , light , and accurate , nothing else needed.

Nice rifle 721. It would look good with an ebony forend tip.

My close range thumper is a 7600 in 35Whelen shooting 225 SGK at 2725fps. I had a 7400 carbine in the same but felt the longer barrel swung better. It’s topped with a Zeiss DL 2x8 with illumination. Bench warmers for close in duty are a Mini-30 and LaRue PredatAR in .308.

I remember reading a Ken Waters article ( "Pet Loads") about the 6.5x54 M-S 1903. Accuracy wasn't great with great with "normally available" jacketed bullets which had 0.266" diameter (3 moa?) Waters slugged his 1903 M-S test rifle, and got a groove diameter of 0.268" ( 0 .002" larger than anticipated) . He order some 160 grain round nose jacketed bullets that were 0.268" diameter (Barnes original? ). His accuracy improved immediately to - I believe- ~1.5 inches at 100 yards. fwiw.

Great thread with some nice pictures. I always love it when GW posts! I've shot deer in the thick stuff with a few different rifles - mostly a 7600 carbine in 30 06, though. I think, the most important considerations are stock fit, type of sight/scope and practice. You can make most rifles work well if when you see that deer and throw the gun to your shoulder it is as if the post or crosshair is just suddenly where it needs to be with no break in the continuity of your concentration on that vital zone. It's more of an upland bird kind of thing. Weight up front is probably nice for settling the gun but is balanced against the speed of a lighter barrel (do you like 26" or 28" barrels for grouse?). To my mind what makes Sell's gun a brush gun is that very cool aperture sight. I never heard of that one. Nice big ghost ring - perfect. I wonder what kind of post he used.

Well there it is - "Square gold bead" thanks william iorg. I've never heard of that either, a square bead. Sell was definitely a loony. I wonder why a square bead. Now I'll be thinking about that all night.

I've found that my M 70 fwt in 280 works just as well at spitting distance as it does at 400 yds.

Screw that, I could abscond with it when he looks the other way.

Nice rifle.

Lots to be said for a fat square Sourdough gold front sight. Think about it - why do all handgun sights, target/hunting/self defense/etc., present a fat square post front sight to the eye, when once upon a time such front sights on target pistols and a lot of utility handguns were round beads?

Yup. Pistol or rifle, square contributes more to accuracy potential than round and gives up nothing in speed.
Personal choice aside of course.

obviously nothing long and heavy.

Beyond that the sky is the limit and what works for you is what works for you.

I don't put much faith in others choices. They aren't me. I"m not them.

Use what makes you happy.

Up close low power optics with large eye box and field of view. That way you can shoot optics like irons basically yet you have a bit of X to thread a bullet, see stuff that irons and eyes don't allow you to see and so on.

There is no brush busting caliber. The ONLY way you get DRT 100% of the time is with CNS shots. So that tosses out caliber issues of this or that is better.

We have always preferred exit wounds. So we will pick the right projectile. We prefer least amount of meat damage, same thing there, the right projectile.

How you deliver it is totally up to you.

Frankly if I was talking 30 yards and in I'd find almost no reason to ever carry anything other than one of the Glock 20s in the pile. And with RMR those are good with us on deer to 75 pretty easy. That doesn't mean its for anyone else, it simply would be the easy choice for us. Around the house the go to for 300 yards and in has been for many years the AR15. light. Accurate. Totally reliable. Plenty big in 223. quick follow up shots on pigs or coyotes or 2 legged if need be.

I read his piece in Pet Loads, which prompted me to try the now-discontinued Hornady .268 Carcano bullets. The experience wasn’t quite so productive. One issue was was with the neck diameter of the loaded cartridge. All of my cases are recently manufactured Norma, which have thick neck walls, probably thicker than the stuff that Ken Waters used and almost certainly more than cases made in the early 1900s. When seating the .268 bullet, the neck diameter was right at the min chamber spec for the 6.5x54. In my rifle, some cartridges would chamber, others would not. While neck turning was an option, rifle’s throat was also less than ideal for the combination. The blunt profile of the Hornady RN combined with he larger bullet diameter required very deep seating. Not only did the loaded cartridges look awful, they also wouldn’t feed worth a hoot from the finicky Shoenauer magazine.

So I quickly abandoned the effort. Just never felt it worthwhile as acceptable accuracy can be found with .264 bullets, particularly the Hawk 160s.

A 44 mag in a Rossi Model 92 works pretty darn good for deer or elk at spitting distance

My solution for a close in brush rifle was a custom 99 Savage in 450 Bushmaster with a 16" barrel. Ticks all the boxes for me and has performed 100%. With Bear Creek Ballistics high BC bullets, and working up to the optimum load for the rifle, it is easily a 250 yard rifle that shoots 1 MOA.

I also prefer a short semi-auto for close range deer hunting, a Ruger 44 International or either of a pair of short Winchester 100s in 308. At least half the time that I've shot deer while still-hunting in heavy cover the deer were either alert to my presence or already hauling ass to get away from danger. Having 5 quick shots available in a self-cycling action gives me an advantage that I wouldn't have if I was shooting a manually operated action.

6.5 Schoenauer's have to have oal. no shorter than 3.005".Set them at 3.015" and they feed like a hot knife thru butter.Guy's run into feeding problems with the PPU ammo because it's a little short.

As far as the author and the photo...in that time period a person had a Rifle, Shotgun and a .22 if lucky. Probably more deer shot with a Model 94 or 30-40 Krag than anything and the choice was purely fiscal. Very few had the means for anything else so they used what they had.....forever. Don't overthink it..if you like open sights that's even better and just remember that most times you may get a single shot. I am in N.MN. and have hunted on foot for 54 years and love big country. Most areas are less than a 50 yard shot but there are some more open as well as slashings. Longest shot I have made is <100 yards or so with most in the 30-40yard range. I shoulder shoot, as best I can, to take out their front legs.I do this as we have most of our bucks dress out over 210# with a few over 240#. I have a tremendous amount of respect for them as they are big bodied and I want to ensure a quick death. Most times I have an open sight 760 Remington .270 in my hands, though, if I know that I will be still hunting a slashing I will most likely take my Scoped Bolt Rifle in 30-06. As far as a 6.5 Swede....there are thousands of Moose Hunters in Europe that swear by it.....I believe in long bullets as well. Hope this helps.
Darrel Wick

Francis Sell wrote he would go hungry if need be to purchase the next rifle or shotgun.
His pal, Al Lyman was as you describe, shooting a .30-40 Krag and dreaming of a .30 Gibbs.

Your deer are roughly twice as heavy as what I typically see.

I hear this over and over. It's the biggest reason why a rifle with rapid repeat fire capabilities is preferred for still hunting. If you're doing it right, you should be spotting most of the deer before they see you. If you're mostly seeing tails, you know you're doing it wrong. Most of your shots should not be hurried or at running deer. The truth is, most guys absolutely suck at still hunting. They move too fast, make too much noise, don't pay mind to wind direction, stop in the open to look around and don't use binoculars to effectively see into/through cover.

Absolutely! And, if a still hunter pauses every few steps, lingering to look and listen for a bit, a one-shooter should really be enough gun.

The clothing you wear is more important than the rifle you use. Above all it needs to be QUIET when moving through branches/brush. Most hunting clothing isn't.

It used to be called a "Sourdough bead." The top of a round bead can seem distorted if the light hits it from the side, but the Sourdough's flat top doesn't. It works best if you match it with a peep sight.

Sadly, it's like pulling teeth to find one these days.


Okie John

A scope is better than any iron sight anyway. Mainly because it helps you to not hit branches between you and the deer.

With 155 Scenars for both jobs?


Okie John

I use a mod 94 356win with peep sights when raining/snowing and mod 70 compact in 308 4x scope for those rare sunny days in Alaskan rain forest.

Far from it when you have multiple targets or you aren't top of the food chain.

OTOH using the AR on deer I can't recall ever taking more than one shot. Pigs same a lot of the time. Only multiples have been sounders and multiple coyotes.

And on those once they start moving I"m lucky to be better than 50% but even at that I've managed as many as 8 pigs once. Usually 3/5 is the max.

We don't own anymore specific hunting clothes. Camo is a waste unless birds. Even then I've hunted everything without camo and no issues.

We want warm. Dry. Quiet. If possible to get em all.

If the ground is covered with dry leaves you can go slow and still make noise that will alert a deer. You're hunting in their territory, they live there and can differentiate between what are natural and what are unnatural sounds, so the still-hunter is at a disadvantage. I've been still-hunting for over 50 years and was taught/tutored by two experts, Harriet and Thelma. Still-hunting after it has rained or in new/soft snow is a much quieter than when the same ground is dry or covered with snow that has melted and refrozen. We seldom have snow on the ground during buck season in Nebraska, so I still-hunt less often here than when I lived in northern New England.

I would agree that most people aren't very good at still-hunting. They move too fast, make too much noise, and generally don't look low enough to see/identify parts of a deer.

One of the heaviest deer that I've ever shot almost got away because when it came up behind me it was dragging its feet, making so much noise that I thought that it was another hunter trespassing where he had no business being. Both of us were surprised, but I was faster., so he made the trip to the Wahoo Meat Locker.

Funny, one of my closest shots on a muley was at no more than 25 yards, with my 25-06 Remington 700 CDL, all set up for shots out to 400ish yards.

A couple of muleys fell to the traditional percussion lock T-C .50 cal White Mountain Carbine - a stubby barreled muzzle loader. Used the 385 grain Great Plains soft lead bullet on them, one buck, one doe. Factory T-C sights.

Took another doe with a 5" S&W 629 using Federal factory 240 grain JHP 44 mag ammo. That worked just peachy at about 20 yards.

Anticipating a modest range shot last December, I hunted with a 30-30 Henry lever action with a 2.5x Leupold. Was a little surprised at the 170 yard shot, but that worked just fine. I do like lever action rifles for modest range hunting.

A handloaded 405 grain Remington from my Marlin 45-70 flattened a muley at about 70 yards, punching through both shoulders.

Recently inherited Dad's sporterized 30-06 Springfield. I may be able to hunt with it this coming fall. Great old rifle with a lot of memories attached to it. I haven't hunted with it in 50 years or so, back when I was in high school.


Though I often do hunt open country, I really enjoy still hunting the thicker woods for deer and other game. Finished a bear wounded by another hunter after I followed the bear into the brush. Had my 375 H&H Ruger Number One in hand. Those Ruger single shots are rather short overall and handle well. Though it carried but one cartridge, I felt well armed for the task.

Regards, Guy

I’ve cobbled up a couple or three, really blades, using Skinner blade front sights, an Xacto saw (for the brass ones) or hacksaw, a file, and paint pens (those are available at a shocking cost from Skinner, or pretty cheap from Amazon). My old eyes need a square top sight. The sights come in various base widths and heights, and even the steel ones are easy to trim to size. My next one will be for an old FN with its tiny dovetail, which will require a good bit of file work. Standard 3/8” models generally need little or no file work on the dovetail.

The brass ones can be painted black except where you want the brass exposed, and the steel ones can have any color that tickles you on the serrated edge. Painting that part white first makes the final color brighter.

There is something about being close to bear, deer and turkey when hunting. Some of my best memories are from hunting close.
Anyone who has hunted southwest of Corpus Christi knows the excitement of hunting close in heavy brush. Whether Still Hunting, or walking them up like Quail, there is plenty of excitement up close.
Here is a picture of a still hunter from a 1918 Outers. With a belt full of .405’s I would need suspenders.

I've got a Henry single shot in 308, fitted with a Skinner aperture sight . I've never managed more than one shot on a close up deer, and carrying this rifle is a joy compared with the usual scope sighted and suppressed 260.

308 works, and with the break action I can have a 24" barrel and still be shorter than a 20" bolt gun.

About perfect IMO.

You simply have to shoot an 18" Mannlicher stocked rifle to recognize how badly the handling of short-barreled conventional stocked rifles fails.

The Mannlicher carbine handles and points naturally, and a low-powered scope offers the wide field of view needed for close-in shots.

And in 308, the blood trails are easy to follow through the dense brush.

This makes sense and I won't be happy until I have a square bead to try out on the peep sighted 7600. Thanks guys!

I'm thinking you and Fury01 are right. Thanks.

We have filed square every round front sight we ever found on any of our guns.

That said for 30 yards you almost don't need sights at all. I've done fine with a shotgun bead and no rear and smoothbore with round balls to 30 or 40 yards with an old 1800s musket.

And whether you have X or Y front at 30 simply really isn't going to make a difference. Only 2 things that help would be big enough rear ap to have light to see. And bright enough or contrasting enough front to see, rather than shape.

Love this pic!

This rifle/scope pic is the main reason I went with the Trificon AccuPoint 1-4. Love the reticle!

I shot a mule deer from less than 10 feet with my Hawken cap-lock. I was sitting on the ground, leaning back against a tree.

I don't think that's what Sell had in mind, but it worked out fine for me.

Here's an alternative bead application for those of you who are divorced, or soon to be, or want to be: Take your wedding band, cut a chunk out of it and hammer it flat. Then knock the cheesy brass/plastic bead off your front sight, file the sight face to support the hunk of gold, solder it on, then finally file it into either a fat round bead or a flat squared-off Sourdough-like image.

I hit upon that years ago when smarting from a recent divorce and wondering what to do with that accursed wedding band. It worked pretty damned good (and I chuckle every time I look through the peep at that sight and think about how much it would piss her off if she knew what I did, her being anti-gun which she hid from me before the wedding).

Seriously, real gold on the front sight has a warm glow to it that catches the eye without being shiny/bright, and being gold it'll never tarnish no matter what. I've since then done a few more front sights from that source, and for a couple for fellas here on the 'Fire. So many in fact that I had to source more scrap gold to continue it. Beats the hell out of the base metal brass-colored stuff the sight companies use.

Real-for-real ivory is another good material. Scratch up some in the form of old piano keys, and substitute in the manner I described above but with epoxy. Beats white plastic. I honestly don't know which I prefer, both "shine" in poor light and stand out in bright light without refracting.

At the other extreme, I killed one running whitetail at 20 yards with a fixed 6x scope. This was quite a while ago, when hunting in pretty open country in eastern Montana. Didn't expect to get so close to one, but a buck got up out of some tall grass, and I got the rifle up quickly--and the reticle on the back of his neck. At the shot he crumpled--and the rifle was chambered for that lousy .243 Winchester--which at the time many hunters thought was "too fast" for close ranges.....

Yeah, I killed a mule deer doe at around 10-12 feet with my first drilling, an outside-hammer Sauer made around 100 years ago--a 12x12/.30-30. Was in kind of a similar situation, sitting near a haystack, and the deer basically walked right up to me. It had flip-up open and aperture sights, but didn't need 'em....

Has anyone mentioned a 357 Magnum lever gun or single shot?

Last Muley I shot was with my .257 Roberts at around 10 yards. All the planets were in alignment. I'm standing against a rock face and down wind, with the sun at my back. I just waited for him to look away and shot him quartering away.

That was the fattest wheat field Muley I ever brought home and also the last. Even that Muley was considered "too gamey" by my family, and so I quit hunting them.

However, all is not lost. On occasion, my better half, after perusing the freezer will ask/tell me "you are going to get another elk, right?"

A rem model 7 in either 7mm08 or 308 would be perfect.

My similar experience was with an original M1861 .58 Springfield rifled musket. In the woods adjacent to the Antietam Battlefield, I figured it was apropos for the occasion. (Said woods have since been absorbed into the National Battlefield Park, so no more hunting there.) Sitting on a stump after sneaking in a couple hundred yards over the course of from daybreak to mid-morning (I remember getting a late start because of stopping for breakfast at Denny's and not being able to take position well before first light - sometimes you're forced to still hunt whether you want to or not) the bushes rustled and out stepped a dandy buck. From about 30 feet away I leveled that thing on his front-facing chest and drove that big chunk of lead out his off side behind the leg, dropping him like a sack of potatoes. I never saw so much blood sprayed into the bushes before, or since. My only thought as I field dressed the creature was "they used to shoot people with these things...."

In the main area I hunt I have about a 1/2-1 mile walk through thick woods, bogs, and steep terrain, and that puts me at the edge of an open field where 2-300 yard shots are possible. So the ideal rifle/cartridge for me is one that can handle a 15-30 yard off hand shot if I’m still hunting and also be able to handle a relatively long shot from a rest. For the past couple seasons a Kimber Montana has served pretty well. It’s a pleasure to carry through the rough stuff, but the extreme light weight is also something of a challenge when shooting. Two new to me rifles I hope to hunt with next season are a Ruger 1A and an RSI.

Mounted a 6x fixed on an 1100 years ago. Just to become more proficient with scope and quick use. It took awhile to learn to shoot doves with it. but IMHO it sure helped my brain and scopes work a lot better/quicker...

Here is a picture of a Marbles copy of the Redfield Sourdough. This is on my Marlin 1894 .32 Magnum.

This sight will often look black, depending on the light.

Depending on where you hunt there is a place for the bead and the post sight.

Francis Sell told us you needed a small bead to shoot small targets.

I have found that up close a bigger bead sighted so the bullet hits the center of the bead is best. 

Where I am hunting there is no opportunity for a shot over 100 yards and not often further out than 75 yards.

Blaser R93, 16" barrel, Red dot, 308 Win.



ya!

GWB

I use a model 94 set up just for strolling through wood lots of small timber stands.

Yep, and yet a lot of hunters are still convinced "irons" are quicker. Finn Aaagaard disproved that in one of his American Hunter articles years ago.

I also killed a running boar about 20 years ago with a 6x--at 10 yards....

I much prefer a low power scope to iron sights.

I like 3.5x10 power scopes, keep scope on low power in case something jumps up.

Hilarious! And, good info. I just need to find an old piano now.

Well hell, Mule Deer, "Irons are faster" has been one of the foundational postulates of my personal Loonyism for so long I'd call you out as a heretic if I hadn't recently read a pile of your books. You are vastly more experienced than me and your writing and opinions have all the hallmarks of truth and sincerity and are based on systematic analysis of actual experience. But, that means those couple of missed opportunities in my youth that I blamed on scope magnification biased my opinion and tainted my orthodoxy for all these years! And, worse - might have (can't quite admit this yet) caused some painfully recent missed opportunities. Well, I'm in the middle of acquiring my first new big game rifle in 20 years and I'm actually considering a 3 - 9 variable for it which, if you knew me, would give you an appreciation for your influence on my ideas! (One thing that comes out in your books and RLN that I didn't get when I only read your magazine pieces is that you can be very funny and the other is that you really enjoy being a heretic.)

I've killed dozens of running deer with both iron sights and scopes and a scope is definitely faster. Hunted many years with a large group doing deer drives. I once killed three deer running full out with 3 shots, boom, boom, boom, just that fast with a Remington 760 .30-06 wearing a Weaver K-1.5 scope with post and crosshair reticle. They were only about 25 yards away and crossing at 90 degrees to my position. At close range in the woods, a low power scope is best. You can get away with more magnification in the open when there's nothing between you and your game and/or on going away shots but for crossing shots with trees/obstacles at various distances between you and the game, less magnification is better. To this day my dedicated close cover rifles wear 1-4X or 2-7X scopes and I sure wouldn't want more than 3x on the low end.

1eyedmule,

Well, thanks, I guess!

One thing I "discovered" when first starting to write for gun magazines a few decades ago was that there was some money to be made by actually testing some long-time "accepted" stuff--which had been accepted because so many previous gun writers had repeated it over and over.

One was how slow scopes were compared to iron sights. This was pretty much true with early scopes, because they usually had very narrow fields of view, due to their small-diameter rear (ocular) lenses--which are essentially the "viewing screen." Of course, this was also because so many early scopes had 3/4" or 7/8" tubes. This is why early 6x and even 4x scopes were considered too much for close-range shooting--especially quick shooting on running animals.

But that changed as scopes grew larger. The field-of-view in 4x and 6x scopes increased to about the same as older 2-3x scopes. Which is one reason I eventually started using 6x fixed scopes. (The other reason was they often held up better than "affordable" variables of the same era--and didn't change POI when changing magnification, like many of those variables.)

But one early experience was enough to help me along in my "research." I killed my first deer at 13, with my father's .30-30--a Marlin 336 carbine that was then also marketed by Montgomery Ward (anybody remember them?) under their their Western Field label. My dad had pretty bad eyesight, partly due to being type-1 diabetic since age 11--and his .30-30 also had a 4x "Western Field" scope, made in Japan, probably by Light Optical Works.

Anyway, during the last week of the firearms season I ended up still-hunting (or "stalking," depending on the part of the country you're from) through the thick ponderosa pines and Rocky Mountain junipers on a low ridge. A big doe mule deer doe stood up from her bed at close range, when I raised the .30-30 the scope's field of view was enough to tell the rifle was aimed at the neck/shoulder area. When I pulled the trigger the deer dropped right there--at about 40 feet, not yards.

The first deer for me was running by full speed from other hunters. I shot it with a scoped Deerfield carbine. The old tube fed ones scoped up nicely. Obviously big magnification wasn't an issue for that rifle. I could see the deer clearly in the scope. I was inexperienced, but possessed the reflexes and luck of youth.

The whole time I hunted elk with a center-fire. My variable was carried on 3X.. I never increased it for a shot, but all my shots were less than 75 yards.

My Dad got a big cow one year so close. He said he poked the barrel through some branches and shot looking over the barrel of his scoped rifle. Got her in the neck. Not sure if irons would have helped there.

When I was first stationed in Northern Va, I quickly got into a club that hunted deer with hounds. Shotgun only. Well, since I came from a northern state that used to have to use slug guns I happened to have a 11-87 with a slug barrel and a 1.5x5 Leupold on it. The hunt master was an old Marine as well and said give it a try but when you start missing deer you’ll need to start using buckshot like the rest. For 3 years I hit everything put past me, some was probably [bleep] as luck but some were solid shots I knew I was going to score with. After those 3 years he said “Scotty, would you mind using buckshot anyhow since the other members think you have an advantage with that scoped gun”.. I obliged cause by that time I had the money to get another gun but it wasn’t cause that old slug gun wasn’t effective. I spent a lot of time on the range during those years of work with carbines and handguns so shooting wasn’t a huge hurdle back then. It was a pile of fun though. Never thought I’d enjoy the dog driven deer hunts as much as I did and they have a cool history themselves as houndsman.

The "heretic" comment was a compliment - It is a service to those of us who don't have your experience that you are honest about what you have found.

Being over here on the wrong side of the Mississippi, you were "still-hunting." That's a great pic and great story to go with it. Maybe if I had been able to find those deer in my Bushnell Scope Chief turned up to 4.5x I'd have given scopes more of a chance for close hunting. The first deer I shot after reading Larry Benoit's book and buying a peep sighted 7600 carbine was the buck I'm most proud of. I shot him at a bit under 10 yards when both of us were on the ground and moving after tracking him up a mountain. I used to flatter myself that not many dudes could have pulled that off. But, I'm old enough to know that conditions were perfect and a good deal of luck was on my side. This experience was life changing (sounds over-the-top but it was) and after that the peep sighted 06 was the best deer rifle man ever devised and I would not hear anything different.

Well done! And that's a great buck.

I am also not so inflexible that I don't hunt with iron sights. Have used them plenty, both in North America and Africa, and they're very effective--especially in better light.

And they do have advantages: Did a totally iron-sight safari in Botswana 20 years ago, taking five animals out to 220 yards--and one of the great things was I didn't have to worry if the scope was "off" due to bouncing around in a Toyota Land Cruiser, and hence not having to "check-shoot" the rifles every couple days.

Also continue to hunt with iron sights at least some every year, whether for small game, varmints or big game--these days thanks in part to the miracle of cataract surgery!

Thanks!

Have you ever played with the square beads referenced on this thread? These guys have me very curious and I'll be trying to make one up pretty soon to try out. What kind of front sight(s) did you use on the safari?

I try to get my rigs scoped with quick release rings.

Low power illumination scopes 4 me please.

Heavy snow can slow a low power scope….especially straight tube….they fill right up.

Iron sights……

I like a heavy post in front or white bead…..

Rear sight I like a white diamond…..

Peep it if u can…

Some times it’s easy…..especially 99s…

Been thinking hard about adding a red dot that mounts on the front base where the scope would.

Carbine….

I think 4 me bolt actions get snagged up in my Fanny pack, spare clothes tied around my waist.
Etc. I am right handed but shoulder carbine on left side.

Working up a 308 mx this year Marlin 336 SC with safety of course.

I like marlins because they are easy to get glove loops made 4 them.

Love the thread and the pics. Great deer guns. Another good read is Larry Koller "shots at whitetails" (1948). Great reading and thoughts on rifles from the old days. Neal

Have played with square beads, round beads, totally square posts of different colors, including fiber-optic, etc.

The big thing I've found is you need to be able to see the damn bead--and it needs to provide a consistent aiming point. A typical "gold" or "silver" round bead tends to result in a pinpoint of light off-center of the bead, due to light reflection. So I use a small, fine file to flatten the face of the bead at about a 45-degree angle away from my eye. This not only eliminates the pinpoint of light, but results in a soft, consistent "glow" which allows finer aiming. A flat-topped sight also provides the same sort of aiming point--the reason most are also slanted away from the shooter.

Fiber-optic beads provide a very definite aiming point, but have also found they can be more fragile than metal beads.

But will also note that among the longest shots I've made with irons were a red lechwe in Botswana, shot at over 200 yards with a Ruger No. 1 .375 H&H with an NECG rear aperture, and a bull caribou at 350 yards with a pre-'64 Model 70 .270 and a Lyman 48 rear. The front sights on both were the factory "gold" bead, filed as described.

Might also note that there's an entire chapter on all this, "Iron Sights in the 21st Century," with far more detail, in Obsessions of a Rifle Loony--which some people think is my most entertaining and basically informative of all my books.

Ever notice how the aperture sight fan club is mostly old guys? I can sure relate to that, having hit 73 last month. Had my Lee-Enfield #4 Mk 1 in the deer rifle rotation last fall. Nice rear aperture with a flat top front sight. Woods I hunt won't even give you a glimpse of a deer past 100 yds. Had it out a couple times but no shots were offered. Front sights on M-1's and M-1A's used to get some of that "sight black" when I shot NRA High Power back in the 1990's early 2000's. The rear apertures on them are great, IMHO. Haven't seen sight black in years, it was wonderful for that reflection and glare stuff.

Yep, it's often us "old guys"!

The issue rear and fronts sights on the 1903-A3 ain't bad either....

Good info. I've got to do some thinking. Enjoying this thread. All you guys sharing your experience with front sights - many thanks! My next box from Riflesandrecipes.com will include Obsessions of a Rifle Loony.

My main rifle for hunting since Gretdog built it in 2010 is a single Shot, falling block Ruger of which I have complete faith in when it comes to shots at less than 15 yards .
I have QD mounts on the low powered variable Leupold , and have express sights as well, but the Leuplod has accounted for several fast , close shots in the last few years.
Cat

There's no better quick handling stalking type gun than a lever gun with a low power scope, holo sight or iron sight.

All this talk about iron sights takes me back a long time to my first buck at age 13. I had a borrowed m64 Winchester .30 WCF (.30-30) with the standard buck horn rear and what ever blade was out front. A VERY accommodating fork horn buck fed his way broadside out about 75 yards. Our deer camp guys back in those days would have hung me by the thumbs if I had shot a doe. Knowing that I strained to see antlers above those ears and in the cold weather, my eyes watered, so I couldn’t even see those sights let alone antlers. Minutes passed, I took off my hat and gloves and steadied that 64 over a branch. I’m pretty sure that I saw antlers, yep, those must be antlers, not that I’d seen that many at that age. Relief when he tipped over like a rabbit at the shot and yes, antlers!!! Scopes and magnification have worked better ever since.

And some antler restrictions can be pretty detailed. Sometimes sex and species ID can be too important to chance.

50 yards:

It is interesting to read the etiquette of different areas.
Here we are overrun with does and spikes. Everyone is encouraged to take one of each. The six point is unusual as it seems the youth hunts keep the numbers down.

It was pointed out that “Old Men” were advocating iron sight. May be true on this thread but there are a lot of young people shooting iron sights. For quite a few years hunters out here have been chasing Allyn Tedman’s “Small Deer” (Jackrabbits) with iron sight lever action rifles. The .357 Magnum is arguably the most popular cartridge, but the discussions get warm over cartridge, make and model of rifle and sights.
With iron sights, not every shot is a hit.
I remember Dave Scovill writing of hunting called coyotes with his .25-35 short rifle. The action was close, fast, and fun.

Have anyone noticed you can aim at a close-in deer with an iron sight rifle and it is not alarmed. Raise a scope sight rifle to your shoulder and the Big Eye seems to get their attention. Just something, I have noticed in the yard.
Here is another picture from the ’61 Gun Digest.

A 700 Mountain Rifle in most chamberings available,
A 600/660 in most chamberings - I’ll suggest 243, 6mm or 308
A early 700 “carbine” in most chamberings
A 336 Marlin in 30-30, 32 Special, 375, 38-55
A Savage 99 in 250 Savage, 300 Savage, 303
A BLR in most chamberings
A Model 100 or 88 Winchester
A Winchester 94 in 30-30 or more power
Several light 70’s or 77’s.
Then there’s ultra lites and various other rifles from smaller manufacturers

There’s so many good choices!

The best choice is a matter of preference, experience etc.

I have many of these. My 700 7x57 Mountain Rifle is possibly my favorite for conditions you write about. I have a FX-3 6x on top of mine and I’d prefer nothing else.

Like most of you, I ain't hurting for deer rifles at any range, but one of my favs for genuine "close in" hunting is this one.

.38-55 with 16" barrel, Weaver 1-3x

Amen to that. Which is why my Marlin 30-30 wore a 1-4x 20mm Leupold from 2001 until 2020. Only reason it came off was that I'm now allowed to shoot a half hour before and after sunset. Figured I better get an illuminated reticle for those opportunities at first and last light. Put on a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x that wasn't being used. Played with it in the woods next to me in the evenings and I really like that illuminated reticle in low light. Filled an antlerless tag with it so far at about 60-80 yards. Except it was 3:15 PM in broad daylight, scope was on 3X, which is all that's needed in that scenario. Still waiting to get my first low light opportunity with an illuminated reticle.

Here's another photo of a deer taken up close.

This occurred in Colorado around 20 years ago, when my friend Brad Ruddell (who worked for Weatherby for many years) and I went on a deer/elk hunt in the Middle Park area of Colorado. The buck was glassed bedded down quite a ways away, almost on top of a ridge near a thicket of quaking aspens and other stuff. We decided that I'd sneak onto the open ridge below the thicket, and Brad would sit around 100 yards above me in the thicket. Then another guy would come up the ridge below us and, hopefully, move the buck toward one of us.

It turned out to be Brad. The buck ran through the thicket and he shot it at close range with his "over-scoped" 7mm Weatherby Magnum--which Brad used a couple days later to kill a bull elk at around 300 yards. (The bullet, in case anybody's wondering, was a 175-grain Hornady Interlock Spire Point.)

Which is yet another of many examples of why I don't think the rifle, cartridge and sights don't matters as much as the shooter....

Using a rifle that fits and the scope mounted so when the rifle is shouldered, you're looking through it and not searching for the right cheek weld is PDQ.

Excellent!

Guy

I always thought to best gun for close in shooting, was whatever gun you happen to have with you...

The others really don't matter if they are back home in the gun safe, or in the trunk of your car, or your truck's camper.

Sure you can use a long barreled, bolt action magnum with a high magnification variable scope for still hunting or tracking in thick cover. You can use a carbine with a low magnification scope as a bean field/plains rifle too. That doesn't mean either is well suited for the job.

👍

No thanks. I'll continue to select my rifle based on the cover and hunting style. Still hunting calls for a different rifle than an afternoon blind sit watching a field

One minute I can be in the thick at the top.......and the next looking at this guy 300 yards away. I'll be carrying a bolt action, and I won't be at a disadvantage in either case.



Still hunting in the thick...If I wanted to shoot a gun instead of the camera, it wouldn't have been a .30-30




Posted this before....However, he was on the run at around 25 yards. Leupold 6x...I saw him take the hit thru the scope.

Some guys just don't seem to understand hunting someplace where there are no fields or power line cuts, just woods.

Some guys just don't seem to understand that their hunting experience is far from the only experience.

My son had to learn to hunt eastern NC. Very different from hunting WV. Here we use the terrain and it's easier to find places to set up.

Yeah, you might keep that in mind. I've known a lot of experienced and highly successful deep woods still hunters and trackers. Never knew a one that used a long barreled magnum rifle or high magnification scope .

You are right....some guys don't understand. Woods are open compared to this....

Is always a lever action of one sort or another....

Give you credit....well done!!!!

We've got plenty of thick stuff here too. I don't care if you want to carry a bolt action with 6x scope around all day. I prefer one of my levers for woods hunting. I have turned the variable x scope on my bolt guns up as far as 6x a couple times when hunting farm country though. Once back in 1993 to kill a buck 440 yards across a field and again to kill a piebald doe 270 yards across a field at last light in 2021. I've never needed that many x's to kill a deer in the woods.

I don't expect you to care.....but since we are having a conversation. 1.5-5 and 3x are my two favorite woods scopes... ....and if needed, of little disadvantage out to 300 or so.

I like my 1-4x Leupold just fine.

Where I hunted elk in CO there was open areas and heavy cover. One of the heavy cover areas is a saddle where several ridges funnel game through a relatively small area. It's been discussed here how to properly still hunt. My Dad was very good at it. I'm not. But I am good at sitting quietly and motionless. Many close shots came to me there. The average being 20ft or less. Most of those close shots were with a iron sighted cap lock muzzleloader.

One year I had got a cow there and was camped out well the meat was getting processed in a nearby town. A man and his wife stopped at camp to chat. He asked if I could direct him to my gut pile as he had a bear tag and wanted to hunt it. I happily obliged. They headed in the bush with a 300 Weatherby with big glass. Just at dark I heard him discharge his artillery. One shot. Sometime later they came out dragging a bear. It was a yearling cub but legal. He felt a little embarrassed about it. I said you know it's pretty dark back in that thick timber. Hard to gauge size scope or no scope. It had a beautiful coat. I advised a having it skinned by the taxidermist after getting it checked by the Warden.

Was he over gunned or over scoped? I don't think so. He had planned a public land hunt in varied terrain. The rifle and big glass could have been a boon with a slight turn in fortune. And he was successful.

Nobody has mentioned a 12 gauge slug gun yet, with slug or round ball. I guess I'll be the one to add it to the thread.

For <50 yards, which would certainly be considered "close-in", a smoothbore or rifled 12 gauge slug gun will get the "close-in" deer stalking job done just fine. Rifled slug barrels and matched slugs going a tad further to 75-100+? yards.

+1
And even 20ga or 16ga would be adequate.
& 10ga for the flinchless.

My old 870 w rifled bore and WW sabots was an easy 150 yard rig. Kicked and was expensive to shoot, but was wicked good.

Hell ive shot deer w smoothbore to 150. Accuracy was there, but ballistically was pushin it IMHO.

Sabot stuff after testing for what was best, shot flatter and hit harder. Deer inside 100 crumpled

My last slug gun deer was shot w an 870P running Activ slugs. Went old school, even used a saddle mount for scope. Accuracy wasnt the best, so limit was 75 yards.
Blasted an 8 pt at 25,.slug shattered and it went over 100 yards. Easy BT though.

Even in Montana rifles aren't legal everywhere. North of our little town is a 6-square-mile Wildlife Management Area where rifles aren't legal for any hunting. Mostly its whitetails, since it's all riverbottom land. (Yeah, we do have plenty of whitetails in Montana, including some big ones.)

You can use shotguns with slugs, muzzleloaders, and handguns chambered for "traditional" handgun rounds. Have used all three, but for the past few years Eileen has been using a 20-gauge single-shot with a rifled barrel, and the Winchester sabot load with a 240-grain .45-caliber Nosler Partition at a listed 1900 fps. It works very well--which I discovered years ago when hunting whitetails in Iowa before they legalized any sort of rifle round.

Killed a big-bodied buck, which was called an 8-pointer in Iowa, which had a broken front leg due to a poor shot from a handgun hunter with a .44 Magnum revolver. Eventually killed it with a shot at about 50 yards through both shoulders--which exited. It generally groups three into around three inches at 100 yards, and works well to at least 150 yards.

I've had a gaggle of different slug guns in the 20-ish years I've hunted IL, both smoothbore and rifled. They've mostly been 20 gauge, but also a couple of 12ga. They are indeed very effective, they just suck to shoot for those not fond of stiff recoil, and sabots have gotten absolutely stupid expensive. With slug guns typically being finicky animals, you can burn through a lot of money in a hurry finding out what's going to shoot well out of one.

The old rifled/foster or tail stabilized style slugs out of a smoothbore aren't nearly as bad on the wallet or shoulder. Thicker short range woods work is definitely right up thier alley, and some of them are suprisingly accurate. I've seen a couple that would shoot cloverleafs at 50yds.

Thankfully the state finally joined the 21st century and passed some legislation last year opening deer hunting up to some rifles here. I'll miss the old slug guns about as much as a brain tumor. I did hang onto my old 870 20ga slug gun and stash of sabots though, just in case I happen to ever need it again somewhere. 🤷‍♂️

Soon as this thread got to slug guns, and close-in deer, I began thinking of the fixed 2.5 Leupold that's been on my 12 ga. 870 slug gun since 1987. I've come to realize that it's all that's needed for woods hunting with a slug gun. Great field of view for that close stuff like a couple 10 yard shots it has made, or a memorable running shot at probably 30-40 yards. It's had a fully rifled barrel since 2001 and gets zeroed at 100 yards. I have no desire for more than 2.5x magnification on a woods gun. Although in my previous post I admitted to having my 30-30 scope set on 3x last time I filled a tag with that.

I have a couple of 20 gauges with rifled barrels, two 870s, one with open sights and one with a cantilever scope mount, and a house-brand Mossberg 500 with a cantilever scope mount that I've used on hunts in Iowa. I don't know if Remington ever made a rifled 1100 barrel in 20 gauge, if they did I don't recall seeing one of them, but that seems like it would be a good choice for still-hunting in cover. I can't imaging that a sabot round from a 20 gauge would be any less effective than the same weight/style of sabot round fired from a 12 gauge, but the weight of a comparable firearm would be less for the 20 gauge and the felt recoil would probably be a little less too. Since passing age 65 I seem to be more recoil sensitive than I was as a younger man.

Not questioning those who find a 6x to be workable in thick cover….just sharing my experience for those who are making up their minds about a scope. I was helping a buddy track his buck last year. Was carrying his rifle for various reasons. Had the scope set on 4x,, the lowest setting. Jumped the buck at close range and had difficulty getting on him with the scope, the only shot opportunity was at 15 yards.. I did hit him, but not were I wanted to. Yes, the gun fit me just fine..

I believe I could have gotten on him sooner and tracked him more easily with lower magnification. Have shot other running deer at close range — even a Muley buck that came around a hill and surprised me at very close range. Was glad I had a 2.5-8x on my .300 win mag.

Love the 2.5-8, 2-7 or 1.75-6. Of course, your experience may vary.

Also,, someone questioned if there was any benefit to a mannlicher style stock. I find that they help a short rifle to not be so muzzle light. Yes, there are other ways to achieve that too. Cheers

Here is another pic of Sell from his book.
Cat

I have that book too. Got it about fifty years ago. A lot of valid information there. GD

This is one of the many deer I have taken, some far, some in close with this rifle in .303 Brit, shot was at 9 paces.
Cat

My 870 with a 2moa dot in a saddle mount is perfect inside of 75 yards. I roll my own shells with a sabotsrus 509 gr slug at about 1050fps. Low report and recoil and 1.5” accuracy(50 yards) from a 21” turkey barrel with a rifled choke tube.

At 7 yards with 6x you're badly out of focus and your field of view is about 14 inches. Smaller than the rib cage of a middlin sized deer. At 1x you are well in focus and your field of view is about 6 feet. Big enough to encompass the full body length of a big deer and then some. It's easy to find yourself within 7 yards of deer in heavy cover. I've killed several at that and closer over the years. In fact, I've been that close and still not able to shoot because all I could see was feet/lower legs under the young spruce. My hunting partner had that same situation just last season. Within feet for several minutes and never saw anything but feet. Tempted to guess the location of chest and send one through the branches but did not and the deer eventually blew out straight away without offering a shot. Something to keep in mind when selecting a scope for close cover hunting.

If I had to replace my dedicated 12 ga. slug gun today I would be seeking a Savage 220; a fully rifled, bolt action 20 ga.. I have personally seen the results of what a 20 ga. sabot will do to deer both near & far. Every year I also see guys at the club shooting small groups at 100 yds. with them. Friend of mine has one that I call his "20 ga. rifle". Many years ago we all believed in the " bigger is better" school of thought and went with 12 gauge stuff for shotgun areas. Rifled barrels and sabots changed all that. I know of several 20 ga. sabot, one shot deer kills at about 100-125 yds.. Although they didn't fall down in their tracks, they didn't go very far, either. I'm not getting any younger, and an accurate 20 ga. could give my aging shoulder a break versus the current 12 ga. sabots.

You still have to use slug guns out where you are ? I'm thankful they changed most of NY to rifle back in 2006. Haven't used a slug gun since. Previous to that I killed a lot of deer with slugs. Having grown up and lived most of my life close to the rifle/shotgun line I had places I hunted in both zones every season. Probably had a dozen different slug guns over the years and at one point had 4 all at the same time. Some rifled, some smooth, some 20 and some 12 gauge. Most were pumps but a couple single shots and one bolt action too.

Same story here Blackheart.Delaware-Otsego County border.

For those who want to roll their own shotgun slug loads, here is a link for interesting reading about it:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?36-Casting-amp-Reloading-for-Shotguns

Shaman...
Here is a picture of Francis Sell’s .358 Winchester Husquvarna after Herter’s restocked it. This little article is titles: Summer Work for Winter Guns. Guns Magazine August 1961.
Francis Sell was not a man to be limited to one gun.

Seems like a silly question. Close in almost anything will do as long it's not long as a pool cue.

There are some who will argue a Model 94 Rifle of 26" with full length magazine can be very quick for offhand shooting.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, once killed a running wild boar at about 10 yards with a variable set on 6x. That's obviously not 7 yards--but yes, the focus was fuzzy. But the field was big enough that I could see where the should was--and the reticle was in focus. Plus, the pig was so close I could easily point the rifle at the "correct" end of the animal. At the shot the pig immediately dropped, its snout catching the ground, resulting in the pig lying dead facing the opposite direction from when it was running. The bullet had broken both shoulders and the spine.

Now, would I have chosen 6x for making the shot? No, but there were extenuating circumstances--and it worked. Which you apparently will never be able to comprehend how--or even try to.

I know it can be done. I'm sure most folks who've done much hunting have killed game at close range that was out of focus in their scope, including me. I've had fixed 6x scopes on several rifles over the years starting back in the 80's. I've used them for deer hunting and found them to be less than ideal for use in heavy cover. I would not recommend to anyone to put on a still hunting/tracking rifle today. A 6x scope is simply not a top choice or even a good one for such use. Neither would I recommend a variable with more than 3x on the bottom end for such hunting in mixed heavy cover and open terrain. You might have found it a bit more challenging picking out and hitting the shoulder of an out of focus 10 yard pig with a maze of out of focus conifer boughs between you and it. I know from experience anybody would be better off with fewer X's in that scenario. That's simply a fact and whether you or anyone else could make 6x work doesn't change it.

The best carrying rifle I've ever owned was a Rossi 92 in .44 Magnum. Nothing handier on this earth, I think. Even handier and lighter than a M94, even. It even holds more ammo than the 94, and at "woods ranges", a .44 Magnum is plenty effective on whitetails. Check one out, if you can find one close, and see what you think.

Handy, light, effective, and fun to pack around.

This Sell character is talking my language now: buying his stock with a high comb so he can whittle it down himself until it puts his eye right behind that peep. The peep sighted close range gun with a stock fit like this is really something. However, I've never then removed the rear sight and shot groups to check the fit! That's next level loonyism right there. Of course, I'll have to try it this summer - with the new square bead I'll be fabricating - after I find that old junk piano... You guys are making a hobby out of finding me projects!

I took my first deer, an eight point buck, at 20 yards with a Ruger .44 semi-auto scoped with a 1 3/4x Redfield. 240 gr JHP IIRC. The buck was standing facing me and the between the eyes shot flipped him over backwards and he landed facing away.

That was a very handy rig but it was at best a 4 MOA rifle at 100 yards. It was succeeded by a Ruger 77/44 with a 1x4x Leupold that held smaller 100 yd groups. A 120 yard lung shot with 240 gr JHP did not leave an exit hole and the buck ran about 80 yards before dropping. Current close range rig is an Encore .260 S&W Magnum with a ?20" Katahdin barrel and 1x4 scope. A bit more accurate, more hp than the .44, and shorter than a reciprocating bolt gun with a comparable barrel. The challenge is finding monolithic or magnum rated JHP bullets for hand loading.

I grew up hunting deer where, if you didn't get one by stand hunting within the opening morning, the rest of the season was done in drives. Shots were usually at a buck sneaking through the thickest crap up close or in an all out run past you. We also hunted black bear by driving or still hunting through the mountain laurel. Close shots at moving game were the rule. Some of our favorite rifles were Rem 600-660's. Model Sevens were nice and short, but I didn't like their butt-heavy balance. I have a definite preference for low power variables. 1.75x6, 2x7 to 2.5x8 at the most.
People on here have sung the praises of 6x scopes for years and I've set my scope on 6 many times to see how it would be for up close work. There's no way I'd pick it for this type of hunting. Can it be done? Sure, but it's going to bite you in the ass at some point.

Spoken like a true Pa hunter. However, as Mule Deer said the reticule will still be in focus. And a Deer shoulder will still show as a shoulder and not a big spot of brown.

If in the moment, one thinks they have to see distinct hairs….they don’t, but if they do….then 6x isn’t for them. But FOV isn’t the issue.

Shooting with both eyes open, also makes it much easier.

Another issue is when the adrenaline is on the rise…. And it concentrates focus. It changes what you think you can see and do.
I’ve shot 4 close with 6x. Nothing was…. or seemed….out of focus and where the dot or x rested wasn’t a guess.

I always shoot with both eyes open. That's nothing new. I'd guess in MD's scenario, he made shot more because he's a wing shooter and it was more instinctive pointing than it was using the scope reticle. Anyway, there's certainly more than one way to skin a cat and if it works for you, have at it. Pennsylvania hunters are looked down on pretty good on this forum, so I'm sure my opinion is worth dog schit anyway.

I’ve never had any issue here with being a Pa hunter.

Over the years I have killed more than a few Mule Deer and Whitetails, with many different guns, but have never used a Shotgun of any kind for deer hunting, and have never lived where a shotgun was required, interesting thread. Rio7

It's subtle, but I catch it often enough to notice.

Anyway, it doesn't matter.

I think being a wingshooter sure might have something to do with it, because I do tend to shoot with both eyes open. (I also got a LOT of practice shooting running game with a rifle when young, due to hunting jackrabbits a lot during winter.)

Arguably the best post WWII article on Snapshooting was written by Francis Sell for a 1959 issue of Guns Magazine. The article: Snapshooting and Snapshooting Rifles defines Snapshooting well, giving sound advice.
The key descriptions are on the right side. This article must have frustrated Francis Sell as the word trigger is inadvertently used where the word hammer should have been used. I would imagine every writer has an article like this.
If MD were not such a slacker and got himself all retired that way he could have written a modern interpretation of Snapshooting and we could have chewed on it for awhile.

I've had a lot of practice missing jack rabbits in the grasslands. Those things are fast :-)

I bet that's alot of fun!

When I was hunting in Minnesota during firearms season many years ago I had a 12 ga mossburg bolt action with a scope.

Minnesota firearms season is during the rut, so the bucks can behave rather brazen.

I was sneaking around and crept up on a beautiful small eight point or six point basket whitetail buck. We were both in thick brush. And we were both surprised , but the buck seemed curious.

It was point blank. I filled the scope with hair and shot. I am unsure what scope it was now that I think about it.

After the recoil it was still there.

I picked a slightly different spot and shot….after the recoil the deer was gone…..I saw it bouncing off.

No blood, no deer ……. It was early afternoon, so I searched for hours the neighbor and his dog even helped a little…….I must have missed?

The next day I went back and found two broken branches next to each other. These broken branches were between where I stood and the deer was when I shot. Shotgun cases are easy to spot.

I think if I would have picked identical aim points the second shot wouldn’t have been deflected.

And without a scope; perhaps I would have been able to pick a clearer aim point .

Okay, I'm gonna have to get some of this man's writings. He's carrying his rifle the same way I do much of the time and is describing what I do. This is what comes to mind for me when I hear guys talk about never using a sling on a rifle while still-hunting. The only thing missing is mention of using electrical tape on the muzzle.

I have a pretty good set of qualifications on running game myself. I shot hundreds of running cottontails from in front of my beagles with .22 rifles from the 1970's to 2008.. As stated previously in this thread, I've also killed dozens of running deer and I've done a fair bit of wingshooting, both on a trap range and on waterfowl and upland birds. Over the years I used various scopes on running game and learned it was much easier to keep track of them at close range in thick cover when the game and any intervening cover were both in focus. Particularly in situations where the game is similar in color to surrounding cover or in a dark conifer forest with intervening boughs. I also learned it was much easier to hit game running away, whether straight away or at an angle like trap shooting than when crossing through intervening cover. This largely due to what I call for lack of a better description, "the picket fence effect" wherin over magnified, blurry, intervening cover can make it difficult to time a shot when there's a clear path for a bullet from muzzle to game. The effect is like trying to shoot through a picket fence without hitting a picket. I would bet money that a high percentage of the game killed close up with higher magnification have little or no intervening cover between shooter and game and/or is taken when going away from the shooter. Both of which make it much easier to connect. Regardless, less magnification is always an advantage at close range because it's easier to avoid hitting intervening obstacles and put shots on target when both your target and it's surroundings are in focus.

It all comes down to using whatever works well for you and is legal to use where you are hunting.

When I was stationed at Fort Riley, KS, some of the best deer hunting areas on post were between old Camp Forsyth, where the ROTC Summer Camp cadets were housed, and the Republican River. It was shotgun only because of the close proximity to the old wooden barracks buildings at Camp Forsyth and the civilians who lived across the river in Junction City. My Camp Forsyth deer gun was an old 16 gauge bolt action Mossberg that someone had modified by cutting the barrel back to 20", bending the bolt handle to reduce the rise height, and installing an old Weaver K2.5 in a Redfield mount. Being a smooth bore is wasn't the most accurate slug slinger, but it would keep 5 Foster type slugs within 8" at 75 yards and Brennekes within 5" at the same distance. There have always been some big whitetails on Fort Riley, but I never saw one close to the size of the 218" buck that Devyn Messenger shot with a crossbow last fall.

Exactly !

"I also learned it was much easier to hit game running away, whether straight away or at an angle like trap shooting than when crossing through intervening cover. This largely due to what I call for lack of a better description, "the picket fence effect" wherin over magnified, blurry, intervening cover can make it difficult to time a shot when there's a clear path from bullet to game."

You keep insisting that you know more than anybody else about shooting close-range game, including this quote. But as far as I can tell from your posts, you hunt only in New York, and maybe another neighboring state or two.

You might be interested to know that hunting winter jackrabbits in Montana mostly involves hunting sagebrush--because that's what they use for both food and cover. Depending on the year and location, it's generally knee-high, and sometimes waist-high. When they're in the sage "thickets" they're typically found in during the colder months, one of the best methods for hunting is after a fresh snow, when you can track them into a thicket, which can be anywhere from 20-100 yards wide.

You can then walk around the edge of the thicket, to see if their tracks leave. If they don't, then you go back to where their tracks enter, and follow 'em up, keeping your eyes open. Sometimes you'll find the jack "hiding" under a sagebrush--where they can be very hard to see because the white-tailed species (the kind we primarily have in Montana) turns white in the winter. Sometimes all you can see is their dark eyeball, and if so can get a very close-range shot.

But more often they jump and run, and they're not only running through 1-3 foot high sagebrush--some even between "thickets"--but they bound as much as 10 feet, meaning the target is not only moving fast, but up and down--unlike a cottontail. (And yes, we have plenty of cottontails in Montana too--and I've hunted plenty of them as well.) This can get pretty tricky.

Mule deer also bound up and down unless running flat-out, and in fact usually do when jumped in thick cover, like what is known as "peckerpole" lodgepole pine. The timing is interesting here too. I've found it easiest to hit them by timing when they hit the ground, rather than at the peak of their bound--the opposite of jackrabbits bounding through sagebrush, which are often only visible (and hittable) at the top of their bounds.

I figure there's a good probability I've killed as much running game with a rifle as anybody here and more than most. Lets just say that while my hunting/shooting experience may not be geographically wide comparatively, it runs pretty deep. In addition to the deer and cottontails already mentioned, there have been countless snowshoe hares, gray squirrels, foxes, woodchucks and a few coyotes killed while on the run with rifles over the years. I won't mention the winged game brought to bag while on the fly as most would call me a liar anyway. Of course none of those would require the level of skill of your mulies or jack rabbits but I think I know what works on the game we have here under the conditions we hunt it as well as anybody.

You have me very curious now: Have you hunted anywhere outside New York state?

What difference does it make, are whitetails somehow faster and harder to hit on the run at close range in cover there than here ?

I wasn't wondering about that--but about this statement: "I won't mention the winged game brought to bag while on the fly as most would call me a liar anyway."

I shot pigeons, starlings and sparrows on the wing when I was still in school. First with an air rifle around my grandparents barns and equipment buildings. I got to where I could hit them fairly regularly. Shooting was all I wanted to do back then. Every day after school, weekends and holidays, if it wasn't pouring rain and I wasn't sick, I was spending my spare time shooting. All of my money went on guns and ammo. I plumb wore out several air rifles launching wheelbarrows full of pellets before graduating to .22's.

I did that when young too, starting around age 7-8, and it's great practice.

But one year in Montana I killed 66 sharptailed grouse--legally, because my family and I were eating them almost as fast as they were killed, so never exceeded the daily or possession limit. In addition was hunting other upland birds--we have 9 legal species in Montana, from mourning doves to sage grouse.

Have also killed several hundred gamebirds (not starlings and sparrows) in ONE day in other countries, mostly doves and pigeons, but also including larger gamebirds from "perdiz" (a grouse-sized bird in South America) to 5-pound wild guinea fowl in Africa.

There's also been considerable waterfowling, both in Montana and other places, including Canada where limits are generally higher than in the U.S. Though have also participated in spring snow goose seasons in the Midwest, where the "limit" was even more generous. But know quite a few other hunters who've taken considerably more.

I don't know how many I killed in total but do remember one day when I piled up and counted 47 birds with my trusty pellet rifle. I still love air guns and have a fairly extensive collection of rifles and pistols from Crosman, Daisy, Benjamin, Sheridan, Walther and BSA. Pneumatics, spring piston and Co2. I still shoot them regularly at aeirial targets and can repeatedly hit hand thrown targets with both pistols and rifles. I've never shot hundreds of game birds in a season but when I kept beagles I did shoot hundreds of rabbits per season, both cottontails and snowshoes for many years. I've also been an avid squirrel hunter since I was a kid and killed several thousand over the years. I'm not as gung ho on them anymore but did kill 87 in Sept. alone last year. Used to shoot a lot of pheasants when I was younger but there aren't many of those around anymore. We don't have a season on doves here but I have found it easy to get permission to shoot pigeons and have killed many hundreds, maybe even thousands on several different farms over the years, starting with both my maternal and paternal grandparents farms and an uncles farm when I was a boy. The first good day we get here this spring I will start busting some woodchucks. I honestly can't say that I've never broken a game law and don't know many people who can. I know almost everybody will say they haven't or don't but that is bullshyt and I know that for a solid fact. I have seen it over and over and over again from hunters from all walks of life. Many who you'd never think would do it, church going christians, doctors, teachers, school administrators, cops , you name it, I've seen it. Either exceeding game limits, shooting before or after legal hunting hours, killing game out of season, Stealing/vandalizing stands and game cams, trespassing, using wives, kids or girlfriends tags {this one is huge}. I'm not saying you are a liar at all but it's a rare bird that's never violated a game law.

From a previous post, you don't seem to be all that far from the Northern Pa line. In your time growing up Ruffed Grouse should have been in your area in numbers. Yet you don't mention them in your wing shooting accomplishments.

Proverbs 29:11

Yes there were good numbers of grouse and woodcock back then and I hunted and killed many. Their numbers are but a shadow of what they once were today.

Since it has shifted to birds now, I got this great damascus shotgun and snuck up on this gopher…

Hunting under a center-pivot?

You ever tried hunting where there isn’t what you are hunting for?

Very interesting thread with some very nice rifles. Brought to mind the relatively primitive way I took my first deer — a doe — still the closest at which I’ve taken one, maybe 25 yards or so. Might have been 1970. Remember those “finned” slugs?

This was in Iowa, a shotgun-only state at that time but the interesting thing to me was a sight that was available then for shotgunners out for deer.

It was about ten inches long. Both ends were curled up to form both the rear notched sight and the front sight. The underneath had an adhesive that stuck to the receiver when you pressed it down. Once done, the serious-minded shooter went somewhere to sight this outfit in. The sight was basically a 100% strip of lead, or very close to it as it was very malleable. It was an interesting and functional little gizmo.

A paper plate placed 90 yards away and you went to work, tweaking either the rear portion or the front until you were throwing those bricks into the plate. Actually it was fairly functional.

Put it on the rump of the doe and she crashed barely another forty yards with her left femoral artery severed.

I just thought that it was a funny picture, what with the sprinkler head hanging down out of the sky.

[quote=shrapnel]Since it has shifted to birds now, I got this great damascus shotgun and snuck up on this gopher…



Use Enough Gun

Shrapnel who is the maker of your double rifle in 7X57?

Henry Clarke of Leicester, England

Your a very luck man congratulations.

I bet some people just thought he was stepping up to the microphone.

I seem to have a knack for doing just that!

Shotguns have been my true love sense my first .410 at 8 yrs old, I have always been a avid bird hunter, as the old saying goes " if it fly's it dies " from Black Birds To Geese, up until this last year I have hunted Birds almost every day for the entire season, i still keep about 30 dogs just for Quail,Dove, Pheasant, and Sharp Tail, I think shooting at flying birds with a BB gun or pellet rifle as a kid, teaches us many good lessons on point and shoot, that carries over to snap shooting critters with hair, shooting running Jack Rabbits with a single shot.22 will humble a young guy until he learns how and when to shoot as Mule Deer said. Rio7

Right on. I remember reading that Lanny Benoit was a State Champion skeet shooter. And, for my money one of the very best on up-close and/or running deer in the woods. Last time I heard he used a 3-9 Trijicon. And, once sighted in, the final test is to shoot a can of beans thrown in the air. Having said that, Hal Blood, another deadly son of a gun still uses a peep.

Since my last couple of deer in PA were shot at about 50 yards with a .308 M700, I decided to try lighter and less recoil with a scoped Stevens 325 in 30-30 Win. With Leverevolution powder, I'm getting around 2300 fps with 170 gr Nosler partitions. Puts 3 shots in an inch at 100 yards. Weighs 7 1/4 pounds with 2-7x Leupold scope. Very modest recoil.

This is a close-in rifle.

I used to believe that you needed a woods rifle, mine was a peep sighted Marlin 336 35 Rem, and a field rifle, and I used a Model 700 scope sighted 270. Then I killed a buck in the woods at 10 yards with the 270, and I decided that it would work for both short and long ranges. Practically all of my deer hunting these days in over open fields, and I haven't killed a deer closer than 100 yards in years, but if I ever do hunt the heavy cover again, I will more than likely use the same rifle I'd use for taking longer shots.

"Puts 3 shots in an inch at 2100 yards. Weighs 7 1/4 pounds with 2-7x Leupold scope. Very modest recoil.

This is a close-in rifle."

Damn, what's your long range rifle ?

Hell of a group at 1.2 miles, Even more so considering that the bullet was a 170 grain Partition launched with a muzzle velocity of 2,300 fps.

In SE Texas, the fastest woods rifle I ever used was a Marlin 1894/44 Mag with factory irons. Pure poison! I did almost as well with a Win Mod 94 Classic carbine ( except the heavier barrel made a "slight" difference in getting on target fast.)
Here in Utah, I like the Remington 700 MR, and the Win 70 FWT Classic, or similar. They are a bit "light in the britches" out on the windy prairies, but thats a different kind of hunting too.

Oops! I need to keep the fat finger off the trigger I guess!

This works either close or far. Pre 64 M70 7MM carbine
[url=https://postimg.cc/bDMzR7NV]

Mine is a Bergara B14 SP in 308 Win with a Leupold VX111 2.5-8 in low aluminum Talleys. Shooting 150gr Hornady Round Nose with a middle road charge of Varget.



HeavyBarrel

Show off

That's a cool rifle GSP.

Thank you beretz. This and a 358 are my two favorites.

They’d be mine as well!

This would make a good close up rifle. Nef 44 mag single shot. Picked it up the other day had a 3-9 Burris ff2 but I swapped it for a long tube Burris 1.75-5 x20

When my shots are inside 100yds, I like my 7.62x39 with a K6 loaded with fusions…

I killed my first deer with a Marlin 1894 .44 Remington Magnum. We would go "flush the thickets" as deer were bedded mid day. If you were on foot, you got first crack at the deer you jumped. If you had field duty, you got the open shots on anything driven out. You had to be fast, and the little lever gun was my choice for that job.

That is one sweet rifle. Perfect, right down to the chambering.

Wow….. down right mean to post that……

I brought my first deer to bag with an old Coast to Coast ( mossberg 500) 12ga with a short slug barrel and rifle sights shooting 2.75” winchester slugs. The deer were driven past me and I picked out the fattest doe and let fly. I saw the big hole in her side just behind her shoulder appear and to my surprise she just kept going. The shot was perhaps 40 yards and she only went a short distance after the shot. I’m sure that combo would work equally well yet today. The last time I went slinking through the woods looking for a deer I had a straight stocked marlin 30-30 with a 2-7 redfield set on 4x loaded with 170 Sierra reloads. I never found a deer but I’m guessing it woulda worked just fine. 12ga slugs and 30-30’s have both proven quite capable for me many times over.

Brno 21h in 7X57 with 3X Burris

Steyr 1950 MS in 30/06 with 1X4 Leupold scope.

Model 71 Carbine in 348 Winchester.

This old girl belonged to William Boyden and was in action from 1935 clear to 1972. Sedgley Sporter in 30/06 with a lyman 48.

This HVA '06 weighs 6#'s as shown and handles like a bird gun, so I'm thinking it would fit the description of what the OP is posting. It had been equipped with a Leupold 2-7. Because of the low comb, I converted it to iron sights using a Skinner peep. With this combo, I get great cheek weld, much better than with the higher mounted scope. With the Skinner, you adjust the front sight. This sight screws into the rear action screw (6-48) secured with a lock nut (ring).

This is a new configuration for this rifle and I haven't shot it yet. Due to light weight, I started out using 125/130 gr. bullets at around 3,100 fps. They were so accurate, I never tried heavier bullets. These bullets exit a chest shot WT with quick kills, so why would I need heavier bullets for local WT's and hogs. I use Fed 215 primers and 59 gr. BG. Gun has a Timney trigger. These loads have mild recoil, considerably less than heavy bullets out of a light '06.

Here is a link to the original HVA project, posted previously. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8948791/1

DF

really like the top one. both are awesome!!

That 30-06! Awesome!!

While my case is not as severe as some I am a confirmed rifle loony and am proud of it. I've tried several rifles through the years but Marlin lever actions from 357 magnum to 45/70 have been the rifles most often reached for in the thickets and creek bottoms I tend to hunt the most. My favorite 336 Marlin has long been a plain Jane regular carbine chambered in 35Remington. A hand loaded 200gr RN Core-Lokt has accounted for all of the deer its taken but one.
For years I kept records of every deer I felled and I found that my average shot was just a little over 60 yards. One day while hunting I got to thinking about such things and realized that I was somewhat overgunned with a bolt action 25/06 and a 100gr Nosler Partition at 3400fps. Especially that day as I sat in a climbing stand in a thicket where 40 yards was a long way. The next year found me hunting with my much beloved 35 Remington. I've been a fan of Marlins ever since. I've got several now but keep coming back to my 35 time and again. There's nothing wrong with the rest and I do enjoy my M375 a lot but there is now room for one more.
I have just put together a Glenfield model 30 in a JES rebore to 356. I figured if the 35 Rem worked so well then an additional 300+fps ought to make them "more dead." My model 30 is the half magazine version that was only cataloged for one or two years it has the feel of being lighter all around even though it just removed a few ounces out front. I've replaced the beech stocks with a set of walnut courteous of a take off and eBay. The rifle has a one piece base that incorporates the bottom half of the rings made by Monstrum. In the rings sets my favorite scope, a Leupold 2.5-8x. I'm thinking of sending it in to have a #4 reticle installed as I find the regular duplex a bit fine when trying to get on a running deer in the timber or the first and last few moments of shooting hours.
While many of you may chuckle at the thought this is the closest thing that I'll ever have to a custom rifle. It fits me and the way I choose to hunt quite well. It's fast to the shoulder and my eye is behind the sweet spot of the Leupold when it lands. All my Marlins handle this well but this one now is "mine" it's the way I want it.

Talking about Francis Sell this morning and his description of deer in close cover came up. The movement of a branch from the flick of an ear etc.

I said I thought I could show this as the old does hang out pretty close at this time of year. 

This doe flicked her ears and moved small limbs by browsing but I didn't get my video.

She knew we were there and didn't care but did not want to give me the "Money Shot"

She did take one step out and eat some grass. 

If it was real thick, shots under 60 yards, I’d go with this old 99 in 32-40. The thang is so much fun to shoot. I can get 2” groups or less at 50 yards since I got a new store bought eye. If I was walking around in thick stuff I’d take this.

Is that a: Hank of Hog"

Some fast leverin

I have a 1951 or so Marlin 336 in 35 Remington which is good medicine.

They were caught in trap pens, sat off bout 50 yards, banged away.

Brings back great memories hunting jackrabbits west of Utah Lake during college. The wife and newborn son were in my old 55 Ford pickup driving the dirt roads in the tall sagebrush. My friend Wade and I were in the pickup bed leaning against the cab. When we saw a jack we would knock on top of the cab, she would stop and we would shoot. I was using a Ruger #1 in .220 Swift and Wade was using M71 .348 Win I inherited from my grandfather. Yes we were overturned but sure had fun. Later, I bought a deluxe wood checked 10-22 "for the new son," thinking I had the right rabbit medicine. Turned out it just shot more misses! A well-placed shot more important than a fuselage of golden .22s. Wish I could do that again.

Overgunned, not overturned.

StGeorger,

Good stories!

They reminded me of the time I went night-time jackrabbit hunting with some other guys, on a Montana ranch where I'd worked for a while a couple years earlier. We were all in our late teens and early 20s, cruising in two pickups exactly the way you describe, with two guys standing behind the cabs, ready to shoot.

We were in the hayfields along the "crick" (Montana pronunciation) that ran close to the ranch house. I was in the second pickup, and all of sudden the light from the headlights of the first pickup disappeared--but we could still see the tail-lights, though much higher than they usually were.

It turned out one of the old ranch horses had died, and the rancher's father had used a backhoe to dig a grave in the field. But he hadn't gotten around to dragging the horse into it the hole before dark, so the front pickup was angled at about a 45-degree angle into the hole. Luckily, it "dove" in slowly, and only one the headlights needed to be replaced....

I would use my Remington Hepburn in 45-70 , if I was feeling strong that day .

Good iron sighted 94 is always tough to beat in the woods

Got curious about this question after the thread first disappeared for a while.

So looked through the big game hunting notes I've been keeping since 1966, after taking my first deer. The arbitrary cut-off was a maximum of 50 yards, and here are the results from all the deer since then:

Cartridge/ range(s)/ bullet weight(s)
.30-30/ 40 feet and 12 feet/ 150 and 170
.243 Win./ 50, 50, 20, 35 yards/ 100-105
.257 Roberts/ 50 yards/ 100
.25-06/ 50 yards/120
.270 Win./10, 50, 50, 50, 40, 40, 50 130, 150 yards/130 and 150
7x57/30, 42 yards/140, 156
.30-06/20, 50, 50 yards/165, 200
.300 H&H/35 yards/180
.35 Remington/50 yards/200

The closest range, the 12 feet with a .30-30, was accomplished with an old outside-hammer drilling made by Sauer and imported by the original Charles Daly firm, which had both open sights and a flip-up tang aperture sight. But the 10-yard shot with the .270 Winchester was accomplished with a 4x scope.

Buttstock,
I had a buddy in upstate NY who many years ago sent an 870 smooth bore barrel to PA and had it rifled. He cast his own round balls and loaded them in to a shortened, scissors cut wad. I don’t remember anything else but it was an accurate “rifle” and the round balls killed very well.
Best regards,
F01

I must be reading this wrong. I'm only coming up with 21 deer killed inside 50 yards since 1966 ?

I grew up hunting in Oregon, mostly blackmail. My first few were with a Marlin 336 in .30-30, but being young I was sure I needed an '06. The next year I took another blackmail at about 20 yards with a scoped 06 and it didn't work any better.

I eventually settled on a .257 Roberts.
These days I use a .223 just as often as not.

I wish I kept records like that. Do you keep a daily journal? Do you keep a journal of your hunts? I kept one for one season when I quail hunted. I can read it now, takes me back to that day. I see the locations we hunted, the dogs we had then, wish I had kept one for every year I hunted. My wife has kept a daily journal like her grandmother. She can tell you the day and time most everything that’s happened in her life. It’s in Italian, so I can’t read it.

Thumbs up! Another time we were out in the wife's 73 Super Beetle, me, Wade, her and the kid. Drove into a deep bowl between two hills. Trouble was I couldn't get the car out of the bowl. Many attempts but it wasn't powerful enough. Finally, I went up as far as I could on the back hill, threw it in reverse and floored it going backwards. We made it barely. The foibles of youth.

One of my favorite O'Connor books was "Horse and Buggy West." I think you could do the same, and us gun guys would make it a big seller.

hanco,

I have kept records of my handloading and big game animals since around 20, but couldn't call them journals. Instead they record the technical particulars, such as the animal, range, what it was taken with--whether rifle, shotgun, handgun or bow--and either estimated or actual weight. Eileen bought an 800-pound freight scale at a garage sale maybe 15-20 years ago, and we've been weighing most animals since--which has resulted in some interesting information for her game cookbooks.

I started keeping journals of major hunts around 20 years ago, making notes each day. They've also helped considerably when working on stories, because like many "mature" hunters I don't remember details quite as well as I used to! Or perhaps as well as I thought!

StGeorger,

Now that's a funny story!

Have been thinking about doing one more book, though might not be able to stop there. I also like Horse and Buggy West a lot, but some (including Eileen) have suggest something more like O'Connor's The Last Book.

Somehow I missed this thread when it first posted. I'm glad it got bounced back up to the top. Great photos & stories. Thanks for sharing!

The same. I hunt in areas where the terrain doesn't vary widely. So I have the luxury of being able to pick the right rifle for the type of shot I'll probably encounter. I know that other posters in this thread have to account for a much wider range of varying possibilities where they hunt.


I can identify with this post: My 6,5x55 is a Ruger #1S & my larger bore is a .405 Winchester 1885 Traditional Hunter with a Marble peep sight. The last deer I didn't put in the freezer was in some high grass on the edge of a bog outside of Morrilton, AR. It stepped out into the gloom of dusk right after sunset as I was doing 180 degree scans of the woods & I almost missed it because it blended in so well. While I was trying to determine if it was legal in the low light (it was!), it took a step behind some brush and evaporated like a ghost.


Here are my two rifles for close hunting: An Uberti 1885 in .303 British & a Ruger #1 RSI in .275 Rigby. I use Hornady 150gr Interlock SP bullets in the .303 & Rigby 140gr Interlock SP (also loaded by Hornady) bullets in the .275 with a Leupold Big Bore 3x20 from their custom shop. So my Ruger is very similar in description to Sell's rifle and I can see why he liked that particular setup. Both of my rifles have slender forearms that feel particularly good in my hands. They both go to my shoulder naturally and point well. The Ruger at 36" long is the shortest rifle in my safe (this comparison is true as long as the stock on my Wilson Combat in .300 HAM'R is fully extended). I pulled the Weaver quarter rib off of the Uberti & replaced it with a plain rib for iron sights only.

Woods still-hunting carbine: Ruger 77/357 w/ aperture sight



Factory Federal 158 gr. JSP works surprisingly well, from rabbits to deer.




GR

I have a group of #1's that would qualify, 35 Whelan, 405, 450/400, 375 and a custom High Wall in 38/55. All are short and handy.

Had one of those as a 77/44 with a little red dot sight, fed 300 gr paper patched pure lead.







Dead Deer

My “close-in” deer rifle…..ain’t a rifle! 🤔 If close-in shots are expected, I’ll be using my S&W 460 XVR! 😉 memtb

The Sako Mannlichers would be great

John,

I have read somewhere the H&BW caused a lot of hard feelings among the descendants of some of the Arizona Territory families that JOC wrote about, so you might want to think twice about writing your version of H&BW.

John Wooters was a fan of Sako Mannlichers for hunting the East Texas woods.

The majority of trackers and still-hunters who I know or have known favored lever, pump, or semi-auto actions when hunting in tight cover unless they were hunting during a muzzle loader season and were limited by law to a single shot. As a group they felt that bolt action rifles were slower to cycle for follow up shots. One of my still-hunting mentors, Thelma, shot a Remington 600 in 243, but she moved through the woods like her Abenaki ancestors and shot like Annie Oakley, so most any buck that she went after was living on borrowed time. Thelma was a meat hunter, so she went for big bodies and cared nothing for antler size or shape.

Agreed! Unfortunately for me, I don’t think I’ve seen a Sako Mannlicher (like the recent 85 Bavarian Carbine) in a left-handed model (if one was ever available) & I’ve seen them rarely in right-handed models. The Mannlicher that slipped through my fingers was a nice Dakota 76 chambered in 7mm-08. Somebody at the auction wanted it way more than I did. But I think it would have worked well for the hunting we’re discussing.

I wasn't aware of "The Last Hunt." Just ordered it and looking forward to hearing again from the writer that guided me in my early years. Thanks for the recommendation. Art

It's real hard to beat this combination. While I don't own a 30-30 lever gun anymore, my single shots rifles and pistol caliber carbines get used almost every year. I still haven't shot a deer over 100yds.

You couldn't don’t do much better than that, unlikely to match it even.

I bought my first 600 in 308 sometime in the 60’s. Certainly not in the running for a beauty pageant. That was what I carried on my first elk hunt. The 600 308’s I’ve owned were, to me, perfect close in deer rifles. I never had more than a 4x on any of them - never a variable. The one I gave now is wearing a M8-4x, I believe.

I enjoyed reading through this thread earlier this week & remembered a lot of positive comments about the Mannlicher-Schoenauer. It's a rifle I don't know much about because if a rifle doesn't have a left-handed model, I sometimes don't give it a lot of attention. But I got an auction notice today and saw a few in there so I thought I would post it not knowing if this would be of interest or not. Figured it wouldn't hurt:

Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1903 Bolt Action Carbine

Tiroler Waffenfabrik J. Peterlongo Mannlicher-Schoenauer Model 1903 Sporting Rifle

Mannlicher Schoenauer Special Order Model 1908 Bolt Action Rifle

Steyr Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1908 Bolt Action Carbine

Relevant to snap-shooting:

Most of the deer I've killed - mostly fallow, plus the odd red and sambar, I have shot with my little Browning Stainless Stalker. It is light, handy and accurate. I've had it for about 27 years.

I had a close encounter with a red stag one time. I was with another bloke, and as we came down into a little gully overgrown with lantana the stag was there, in cover. I smoothly sat, behind a log, but my mate hadn't seen the deer, until it bolted directly towards me. I thought for a brief instant that I'd be shooting upward as it jumped over me, but it balked at the last instant, not 5 yards away, and crashed back through the lantana until it emerged on the far side, full gallop across my front at about 70 yards. A bullet through the shoulderblade and spine rolled it like a rabbit, and that was that. I've killed a sambar galloping through blackberries at about 40 yards too, with the same rifle, and the odd fallow that was close in and determined not to be too.

I've also shot a bolting fallow at about 20 yards with a Marlin 1893. The 26" barrel was no hindrance - actually helped the swing-through. Even my Martini Cadet, 5.6x50 R, did for a doe lying down in cover from about 30 yards - I could only see her head and half the neck as she looked up at me, but it was enough for a quick shot before she could get up.

I've shot a few other deer close in, but a lot more pigs. Closest was no more than a yard off the muzzle, and closing fast. He meant to do me a serious mischief, had I not brained him.

The handiest rifle I have is probably my drilling. I just took it out for a walk last week in fact. 6lbs, 22" barrels, 1.5 -6x scope, and the immediate choice of 7x57R, buckshot or slug, it is ideal for really close cover, and proved as much last week. My double 9.3 is also pretty handy, and has plugged a good number of animals including those close in and moving. You save a lot of OAL with a break action.

I reckon the main criterion though is the rifle fits you, and you have confidence in it. It should come up like a shotgun, with the sights materialising before your eye. That allows you to get that bullet where it needs to be, fast. Provided that the bullet is suitable to the game that ability to get it there without hesitation tends to do the trick.
.

It doesn't beat out any of the previously mentioned, but over the last week I've spent some time shooting a CVA Cascade in .350 Legend. Surprisingly nice little rifle. Smooth action/bolt, great feeding from flush fit mags, very nice trigger, free floated sporter-contour barrel, nice balance, and although just factory synthetic, the stock is a very nice pattern that fits me well. For a low $, off the shelf, close-in bolt action rifle chambered in a modern day 35 Rem equivalent, it's a winner.

Got a nice 327 Fed load with 86gr Shock Hammers cooked up for the peeped Henry BBS 16" carbine, but haven't used it deer hunting yet.

I sort of envisioned that as a load for bump walking along creek/ditch bottoms since it snap shoots well, and any offhand shots I take would be VERY short. The rifle works great as a short range small game potter with 32 Long/32 H&R cast loads.

I don't see Sako Mannlichers pop up on a regular basis. They might not be super rare but they're definitely not really common. While surfing around & drinking coffee this morning, I saw a LNIB Sako AII Carbine chambered in .243 Winchester for sell on GB. It's at times like these I wish I shot right-handed:



The same person was also selling a short-barreled LNIB Sako AII Handy Cabin Rifle chambered in .308 Winchester with a DBM. I think that would make a really good close-in deer rifle & again a model that doesn't appear too often:

45-70, 1895 Marlin, 400 gr. Speer, 53 gr 3031 & you'll never have to trail another deer.........................ever.

Unless you just flat out miss.

MM

Mine was a Win 70 Classic Compact that I rebarreled to 250-3000 at 20", Leupold 2.5-8x36. A great little stalking rifle.

Exactly what I use in my Guide Gun, with the exception of 54 grains of Varget instead of your 53 grains of 3031. I have only had to follow up one deer I can recall (out of many) taken with that rig. It was the last hour of the last day of the season, early December, and colder than hell. I was on a small ridge above a gulch where I've shot a number of deer traveling through. I saw one heading right down the middle and got ready. Instead of continuing on the usual path however, the buck angled off coming right toward me, diagonally up the slope of the ridge. He was in the brush where I couldn't get a clear shot until he broke out and stood, trying to figure me out, no more than 20 feet from me. I didn't give him time to think about it, smacking him square in the chest with the 400 grain Speer flatpoint. He crashed down thrashing, came to his feet, and flew straight ahead, crashing into a small tree 6 feet to my right, fell, came up facing back the same way he came and was out of there like a shot. I didn't try to shoot again, knowing I'd hit him solid and with a couple of inches of snow on the ground. I was surprised at how far followed his track before he started leaking, and not much when he did. I found him about 100 yards from where I'd shot him, lying on his side in a massive pool of blood. A nice buck, 8 or 9 point, but worn down from the rut.

Probably would be my 1958 Marlin 336RC in 35 Remington shooting 200 gr. Remington Core-Lokts or Hornady’s Leverevloution 200 gr. FTX.

I've been loading 53gr 3031 under the 325gr FTX for a friend's 1895 guide gun for a while. Packs a heck of a wallop, and excellent accuracy.

Too much recoil for me, but he loves that thing.

My 1920 303 Savage, 20" barrel, 6lb 3 oz has worked well for me.

Imagine this in .30 caliber if you will. It weighs 5-1/2 pounds.

Those Contender Carbines are damn handy.

I’ve got one with a 16” bbl in .223 that I’ve killed a schitt load of coyotes and hogs out of the window of a JD Tractor with.
And all of my nieces and nephews used it to kill their first deer and hogs with too. It’s an accurate little SOB.

My little Winchester Trapper Model 94’s in 30-30 & .44 mag also work very well for a “close-in” deer and hog gun.

I’ve never really thought about a “dedicated stalking rifle”……or perhaps that’s all that I ever considered! I want a rifle that is fully capable of handling any situation that I may find myself in!

My hunting can result in shots measured in feet, while hours later could result in the potential to shoot to the Earth’s curvature …..though, my personal max range is a self-imposed 600 yards in perfect conditions! My cartridge/caliber choice also reflects the possibility of taking game of sizes ranging from a 100 pound Pronghorn to deer, moose, elk, Black Bear depending upon the licenses that I have…..then there’s also the “very remote” possibility of bumping into a grizzly in a foul mood at the aforementioned range measured in feet!

While my cartridge/caliber choice in 9 pound pkg (scoped, loaded, slung) is certainly not #1 on everyone’s list…..it has worked quite well for me for 33 years!

As a qualifying statement…..I am a “one gun” hunter! memtb

Pre-mil 1950’s era d&t Savage M99F .300 Savage. End of discussion.

What the hell are you doing here then???? That is so sad; whadaya want, help or pity?

MM

Doing what I enjoy doing ……hunting since around 5 or 6 yo (with adults), shooting since around 7 yo, and hand loading since age 14 or 15. 65 or so years of hunting/shooting!

Been a member of this forum since January 2001……when did using multiple firearms to satisfy inadequacies or with which to hunt become a qualifier for participation? 🤔

I need nor want help or pity! Perhaps it is those that require many firearms with which to hunt when one firearm can suffice……that need help or pity! Or is it the need to attack someone via a keyboard to prove one’s virility! memtb

my first rifle was a 1972 Winchester m94 in 30-30. it killed my first buck and first doe. it went kill many more deer and then the m94 was put in my safe and i just forgot about her. then about 4 years ago, i sent the m94 to JES Reboring and he did a fabulous job reboring her to 35/30-30. i put on a Williams FP aperture sight because my eyes ain't what they used to be. i use 200gr RCBS FN GC with 2400/tuft of Dacron that goes 1726fps. i've killed two does and one buck. last year, i didn't hunt , i was scheduled for a heart cath. i'd say that i luv the m94.

my second choice is a Husqvarna m46 in 9.3x57 and a 2-7x Leopold scope. it uses 275gr WFN GC and IMR4895 that goes about 1800-1900fps (i forgot to chrony it). it is a sweet rifle, and it thumps deer with authority.

my third choice is one that came down to me. it was used by great grandpap, pappy, Dad (RIP), late uncle and finally by me. it will be passed on by my sons. it is a sporterized 1898 Springfield Armory in 30-40 Krag. i put on a Redfield 102K aperture sight. it uses a 165gr Ranch Dog with H4198 and it goes 1926fps. i killed my first cast bullet deer with the Krag. i then added 8 or 9 deer and my oldest son also added 5 or 6 deer.

my fourth choice is a TC Encore with a 23" MGM heavy factory barrel in 444 Marlin and a 2-7x Leopold. i've shot many deer with 255gr Kieth -type bullets, 275gr Ranch Dog, 280gr WFN GC, 280gr LFN GC, 300gr SAECO FN GC and 265gr Hornady FN. the fps is anywhere between 1600 - 2300fps. the one bullet i liked best is 280gr WFN GC with Reloder 7 that goes 1937fps.

this year i'll use my TC Contender in a 10" barrel in 30 Herrett and a 2-7x Swift with 130gr Speer HP and Reloder 7 (i still have to chrony it) but it will go 1700 - 1800fps. i also bought another 10" barrel in 357 Herrett but i'm not going use that for a couple years. when i do, i'll be sure to use cast bullets.

the place that i mostly go to, 60 yards is considered a long shot. depending on the deer, my shots can go either 10 or 12 feet oy 60 something yards. most of the time, it is around 25+/- yards.

i shot deer through the 22-250AI, 243, 25-06, 6.5 Creedmoor, 270 Win, 7-08, 7x57, 30-30, 30-40 Krag, 308, '06, 7.65x53, 8x57, 35/30-30, 9.3x57, 44 Special, 44 Rem mag, 444 Marlin, 45-70 and a bunch of other calibers.

I'd like to see your 9.3x57 set up. I have the same rifle and have debated getting it drilled and tapped for optics or at least for a peep sight.

You have two problems. 1) Your loony status is suspect, and 2) You aren't hunting in the swamps, where a long shot is 50 yards. Both can be cured, trust me!

Now, Queen Elizabeth she fell in love with me
We were married in Milwaukee secretly
But I got tired and shook her and ran off with General Hooker
To shoot 'skeeters down in Tennessee!

I grew up hunting in Central Louisiana, and have a pretty good idea of what it takes to hunt the thickets….I stand by my choice! 😉

DD, we have lots of guns to shoot…. but, prefer to use only one rifle for hunting! 🙂 memtb

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i had my gunsmith bent the bolt handle, 2 position Bueler safety, Dayton Cock on Opening Speed Lock kit and D&T for scope mounts. i did cock on opening because i had a stroke and i'm only left with one arm and the original cock on closing was hard for me to do.

the D&T for a scope mount was for my eyes. (they ain't what they use to be!!! ) i, or rather my gunsmith, did an old Lyman aperture sight on my '91 Argentine Mauser, but don't forget about your stock. he removed about 1/8 to 1/4" x 1" of the stock action channel and then he matched the color of the stock to the divot he cut out. i don't have a picture, but.......

1944 '98 Mauser
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35/30-30


30-40 Krag
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I bought an '60s FN Musketeer 264WM with a 22" barrel.NIB. It had a very fast handling stock. Talk about a confused rifle. But the fast handling stock interested me. It was a why do the ergonomics work so well ? It all boiled down to the angle of my wrists. The pistol grip was fairly flat, allowing a quick, more natural raising of the rifle. A deliberate aim works better with a more vertical one, (which is what a 264WM should have). The fore-end helps too with a pronounced slope. This makes for a good looking rifle. You will find this type of stock on rifles with totally inappropriate calibers.

Interesting. Had to google that to see where it came from. That was an interesting song, DD.

Great choice, have one, 130 Barnes shoot great in it

I have a 99 in 375 Win now. I’m eager to try it on deer or pigs. It has a 3.5x10 on it

Have used a Thompson Encore in 405 Win and a 4x fixed scope with excellent results. Big holes in and out.

Looks like where I hunt. The gun doesn’t have as much to do with success here as quiet clothing and a good set of binoculars. I have a pair of moccasins I use for still hunting, being able to feel the ground and any debris on it helps.

Have had some success in dry leafy areas using a trick an old man showed me years ago. One does not step or walk, more shuffles, mimicking the rambling scurrying of a squirrel. Perhaps it is only my perception, but I have neck or head shot a bunch of deer after using the technique during movement. I don’t shoot running or frightened deer. Too easy here to find them calmly eating or sneaking through the brush. And a deer snuffed instantly with a CNS shot while in a calm state just tastes better. Others’ experiences will vary, no doubt.

I too have an MS model 1905 in 9x56MS and I feel it was purpose built to be the best still hunting rifle ever built.

Pumpkin balls kill great. Illegal in Shotgun only NJ woods where i hunt, damned if I know why other than because NJ laws are a mess.

My favorite stalking rifle is a .45 caliber White super 91. Its neither light nor has a backup shot, but it packs a Wallop, has a full stock, shoots where I point it and fits like a glove.

A short range, woods rifle doesn't just mean a big, heavy, slow moving bullet. Many times it is more precise placement that wins the day in the thick stuff. This Husqvarna in 243 has done the job up close many times.



This Marlin 336 in 35 Remington is normally my first choice for the deer hinting I do now. It is smooth and accurate. It leaves a hole on both sides for easy trailing, if it is necessary, but most of all I have carried it enough over the years that it seems to almost have become part of me. This one replaced a Marlin 336 in 44 magnum that I had been using off and on since 1967. The 35 Remington gives me the chance to take a deer at a longer range than the 44 magnum did. But basically the same rifle



Thinking I needed a new more modern rifle for my deer hunting, I bought this Remington 600 in 35 Remington from a friend a couple of months ago. It is very accurate, short and handy. I'm going to give this one a try in the woods this year to see if it will displace my Marlin 336

My favorite is the winner I pull out in the great “who goes hunting today” contest I suffer with. Records say my Whitworth 458 WM loaded with 485 cast gc fn is in first place with my 1903 Springfield 35 Whelen loaded with 285 cast gc rn in second.
The Whitworth is scoped 1x 5 Burris and the Whelen goes with a peep and post.

I wanted a bolt action 35 Rem for years and could never find one at a reasonable price. I decided to have one made and I am very happy with the results. A Shaw MK Vll, stainless, 21" barrel.



I would still like to find a Remington Model 600 in 35 Rem(like the one above) or a Remington Model Seven KS.

[quote=kandpand]I wanted a bolt action 35 Rem for years and could never find one at a reasonable price. I decided to have one made and I am very happy with the results. A Shaw MK Vll, stainless, 21" barrel.



I would still like to find a Remington Model 600 in 35 Rem(like the one above) or a Remington Model Seven KS.[/quot

I wanted one for awhile myself. I like the 35 Remington. I put a 20' tube chambered for 35 Remington on a Tikka T3 and a 1.5 -5 Leupy and it moved to the number one spot for deer and hogs. I have 2 Marlin 336's and a CVA single shot also. Right now everything eats 200 gr. RCBS.

Mathsr, When I was shopping for my first rifle, 56 years ago, I really wanted a Remington 600 in .350 REM Mag. I don’t regret my ultimate decision, but really wish I could have gotten both!

Nice group of hunt’n rifles! memtb

memtb, to me, luck has played a large part in my hunting rifles. My brother was talking about a bolt action rifle in 35 Remington he was building at our hunting club meeting. A friend mentioned that his wife hunted with one for years in 35 Rem and that she didn't use it any more. When he asked if I was interested, I jumped on it. My brother had looked for years for one in good shape, finally gave up and started his build. I wasn't even really looking hard and had it fall into my hands.

Congratulations on your find! Good Luck can be a good friend!

I now often wish that great deals do not present themselves to me……too many firearms, and not enough relatives that would appreciate them…..especially those that are very important to me! memtb

The world needs more bolt guns in 35 Remington.


Okie John

and a steady supplier of brass

.35 Remington's can be made from .308 cases.

Hoo boy, this could get expensive. Do you just expand and shorten or do you need to ream/turn necks?


Okie John

Ruger 44 carbine, Sold
Marlin 44 still have it with a 1-5 Leupold.
Mannlicher carbine full stock in 243 vintage weaver 3-9

or this. Only have 1 deer with it. Swed 1913 Carl Gustav, barrel cut to 19" , ramline stock, 2-6? bushnell

Hoo boy, this could get expensive. Do you just expand and shorten or do you need to ream/turn necks?
Okie John[/quote]

You need a stout enough press to reduce the diameter of the head of .308 cases slightly; I use a Redding Big Boss, and Redding Imperial Sizing Die Wax. Since the necks are being expanded, they don't require reaming or turning.

Decided to try it after owning (and hunting with) several .35 Remingtons. It's pretty easy, especially handy during the "shortages" that keep reoccurring every few years now. The .35 Remington is one of the rounds the major manufacturers make "seasonally," meaning whenever they get around to it.

So I looked at the case dimensions and decided to try it. It was so simple I only mentioned that it could be easily done in my chapter on the .35 Remington in the first Big Book of Gun Gack.

In those calibers and velocities, a soft lead nose works pretty well on deer and smaller hogs, but will still punch a clean hole through a rabbit.




GR

You need a stout enough press to reduce the diameter of the head of .308 cases slightly; I use a Redding Big Boss, and Redding Imperial Sizing Die Wax. Since the necks are being expanded, they don't require reaming or turning.

Decided to try it after owning (and hunting with) several .35 Remingtons. It's pretty easy, especially handy during the "shortages" that keep reoccurring every few years now. The .35 Remington is one of the rounds the major manufacturers make "seasonally," meaning whenever they get around to it.

So I looked at the case dimensions and decided to try it. It was so simple I only mentioned that it could be easily done in my chapter on the .35 Remington in the first Big Book of Gun Gack.[/quote]


i'll have to try it. my son's Marlin in 35 Rem only has 30 or 40 cases. i have about 100 308 cases that are just sitting there.

JES Reboring did an amazing job making my 30-30 to 35/30-30 in Winchester m94. i have Federal, Winchester and Remington 30-30 cases, but i gave them to my youngest son and Savage m340 in 30-30. i use 30-30 Starline brass in my 35/30-30, 30 and 357 Herrett.

FYI - I got a notification email from MidwayUSA yesterday that they had some Hornady LEVERevolution .35 Remington in stock. It’s been a bit hard to find for the last few years:

https://www.midwayusa.com/ltd/product?pid=449035

Thanks. Would a Rockchucker work?


Okie John

I have 100+ 35 Rem cases made from 308 that I no longer need. They were made by GRUMPA over on the Cast Boolit site a while back. About the time I bought them, a friend gifted me with a pile of older factory ammo. I loaded and tried a few of the reformed 308s and they worked well.

I would trade them for 1X Grendel brass if anyone wants a deal.

Okie John,

I would guess a Rockchucker would work. Probably the quality of the lube is more important than the press.

Use the same one for up close as you would for out far.

Easier to make a short shot with a longer range set up than it is to be handicapped with a short range rig on a longer shot.

i use the Lee Classic Cast press. i have done '06 cases to 270 Win, 6.5x55, 7x57, 8x57, 9.3x57, 7.65x53 and a couple of more that i forget. i use 30-30 cases for the 35/30-30, 30 Herrett and 357 Herrett. the 221 Remington Fireball to 20 Vartarg.

i use lanolin and 99% isopropyl alcohol (8:1) or just straight lanolin. i can't tell the difference, other than the time using straight lanolin.

tdoyka,

Turning .308s in .35 Remingtons takes a little more effort that the resizings you list, because the case head of the .35 Remington (thickest part of any rifle case) is only .457" in diameter, considerably less than the the .308's head.

gotcha, i wasn't thinking of that.

I've always wonder why Savage used that head dimension! But back when the .35 was introduced the ".30-06" head-size hadn't quite become standard. (Actually, the "standard" .30-06 head-size is actually 12mm, the diameter of the 8x57's head. But that's another subject.)

I missed something.... Mule Deer, what head dimension, that Savage used, are you referring to?

Mathsr,

From my reply to Todoyka:

"Turning .308s in .35 Remingtons takes a little more effort that the resizings you list, because the case head of the .35 Remington (thickest part of any rifle case) is only .457" in diameter, considerably less than the the .308's head."

I wasn't thinking about the Savage 300 case being the one that generated the idea of the 308 Winchester. I was thinking from the 35 Remington end and why did Remington pick that head size for the 35 Remington which is different from nearly everything.

I would love to have my 12 gauge Rem 870 rifled with a 1-100" twist for round balls. Do you remember who did the rifling?

I may have had a Dog with me that day...In fact some of the nicest Bucks I've crossed paths with was with a Dog running in front of me while hunting Grouse. However, while being quiet is one thing, many of my Deer have been shot while walking thru the woods, while trying to be quiet, but not making a job of it. Most times I caught them watching me while I was walking along. Or saw them move, then stop to watch me. Have also shot a few running, after bouncing them out of their bed. Or if they didn't go that far before stopping to look back. Some obviously made a fast escape and left me with nothing. However an all day hunt, not trying to make a sound wouldn't be all that much fun.

Have shot two within steps close. Model 70 Fwt for one and a Kimber Montana for the other. Others have been shot close on Deer drives with Model 70 FWT's


Addition: Familiarity with a good mount and getting into the scope, will make most rifles work close.

Have mentioned this before in such discussions, but have killed running bucks and pigs at 10-20 yards with 6x scopes, or variables set on 6x.
But have also killed big game out to 350 yards with iron sights.

And have friends who are even better at it. Mine was a bull caribou, about the size of a cow elk. Have a good friend who's done it, first shot, on a pronghorn a little farther away. And mine with with an aperture rear sight. If I recall correctly, his was with open sights--and a Savage 99.

It depends mostly on the hunter, not the rifle. Which has been said in many ways, many times....

The most informative discovery I made was on stocks . This one rifle should be painful and isn't. I wondered why ? Another comes up quick. I wondered why ?

I think that if you act like a predator, then animals treat you accordingly. They can tell when you're walking along doing something else.


Okie John

I've taken several deer in excess of 200 yards and one at just over 300 with an aperture sighted Winchester 94 .30-30. Doesn't mean an iron sighted .30-30 is particularly well suited or a good choice for hunting deer out in open farm fields. Neither is a 6x scope well suited to hunting deer at short range in heavy cover. Just means sometimes a good marksman can often make do with whatever happens to be in his hands.

blackheart,

You are a good example of the word "provincial." Unlike you, I have hunted a wide variety of big game, not mostly deer, and have taken plenty of others at 50 yards or less. (There are seven legal species of big game other than deer just in Montana, but also travel to other places quite a bit.) Just went through my hunting notes, and found I've taken 13 other species at 50 yards or less, ranging in size from under 100 pounds to around 1500, including Cape buffalo and a grizzly.

As for 6x scopes being a poor choice, much of the myth that 6x's too much for closer shooting appeared when scopes were much "skinnier" than nowadays. The major factor in field of view is the rear (ocular) lens, which is essentially the "viewing screen" in scopes. In older 6x scopes it was very narrow, but modern scopes have much wider oculars. The typical field-of-view for new fixed 6x scopes or variables set on 6x is at least 20 feet at 100 yards, which means 10 at 50 yards, and around four feet at 20 yards. Since the front end of even the biggest whitetail or mule deer isn't more than four feet tall, this means there's plenty of field of view to make a 20-yard shot--or closer--IF the shooter is reasonably well-practiced with a scoped rifle.

Those that can shoot a scope with both eyes open have fewer issues with higher magnification. At least that is my experience.

If the rifle is pointing in the right direction, it helps the sight picture. Not as critical as a shotgun, but the same sort of thing.

Unlike you I have killed many deer at close range in heavy cover with a wide variety of rifles and scopes. Not sure I'd be giving advice on what works best there if I'd only taken 22 total at less than 50 yards and 3 at less than 20 in 56 years with a limited variety of armament. A reasonably competent hunter could easily rack up those numbers in 10 seasons here and a good one might well do it in five. Multiply your sub 50 yard totals by 6-7 and you'll be getting closer to my neighborhood. In fact I have killed 6 inside 50 and 3 inside 20 in just the last two seasons and I missed most of last season due to illness leaving 4 tags unfilled as a result. Like I said before, my experience may not be wide but it runs fairly deep. Oh and BTW, I do have a modern 30mm variable and the field of view at 6x is still less than I want for those sub 20 yard shots which occur for me pretty much every season and often multiple times per season.

I and the Dog were both acting like a predator in that we were both hunting Grouse. In those situations the Deer was concerned with the Dog and how it would respond to a possible threat. Similar to a Coyote. I could have shot the Deer easily, since its attention was not on me. Seen it happen with Deer enough that if allowed, I would have little hesitation of doing it often. Train the Dog to just wonder around out front and it would be deadly.

As far as being constantly on sneak alert...I agree with you. It isn't necessary to be successful. There is a lot going on in the woods and if a Deer had to flee at every sound, they would be running into trees.

Addition: The big ones may play a different game. If it is not the rut, they make few mistakes in the daylight.

Hunters every year are drawing back bows and killing Deer at close range. It is even easier with a rifle. Even one that isn't considered a close range woods rifle.

Yep. Killed a bunch with a bow, shot placement is the key

How many have you killed with arrows, how many of those were while still hunting or snow tracking, how many with a bow wearing a 6x scope and how many were on the run ? If the answers to these questions is none, how do you know how hard it is ? I have killed deer with arrows flung from both compound and crossbow and it isn't terribly difficult from a stand or blind. In fact, in some ways it's easier as the deer are more relaxed and move about much more naturally than they do during rifle season. Which is why rifle hunters here bellyache about bowhunters killing all the big bucks before rifle season opens. I killed a 7 point buck at 17 yards the first day of crossbow season last year within 5 minutes of climbing into my stand. The seat didn't even have time to warm up. The year before I killed a doe 1.5 hours into the first day and a buck a half hour into the second. That buck was the third one past my stand that morning..

I’ve never killed a deer on foot with a bow, always in a tripod

Two and then I quit the game of bow hunting, because I would rather hunt rifle season. And I could have killed them with a rifle and it would have been easier. What is your point?

I certainly have killed at least 60 plus Deer with a fixed 6x. And more with 4x our 3x. And most have been under 50 yards. It's not that hard.

Anyway, I've posted these previously..

Leupold 6x...Around an 8 pound Model 70. The Deer was on a serious run after being bounced. Around 30 yards.




Leupold 6x at 3 big steps max....Kimber Montana




Leupold 1.5-5x....Set on 5x...McMillan stocked Pre 64 70....Bounced out of its bed. It made the mistake of stopping to look back. 80 yards +/-





Before you start calling me out, perhaps you should come up with something other than talk.

It may not be that hard but it certainly isn't optimum or neccesary either. I know a lot of very successful trackers and still hunters here. Haven't known one who used or advocated for the use of a 6x scope. I killed my first buck and several thereafter with a .22 rifle. That doesn't mean it's a good choice or even close to optimum but it wasn't very hard either.

What does that have to do with another's success. You seem to do well with your .30-30...So what? What does it prove? Actually nothing, except it works for you.

And that .30-30 would be far from a first choice of the "successful" Deer hunters I know. But again, that would prove nothing.

As long as it works for you, it all good!

And you and I killing a bunch of small Bucks and a whole lot of Does....means little as far as our being good Deer hunters..


The good ones kill the big ones, and they do it on a regular basis.

The most successful deer hunter I ever knew used a .30-30. Course he didn't let bag limits get in the way of his fun and routinely killed 4-5 bucks every season. He had killed well over 200 bucks right here in NY before he died. Those who don't use one tend to underestimate their effectiveness and suitability for woods whitetails. I have many scoped bolt actions from which to choose but most often a .30-30 will be in my hands if I'm going to hunt the woods. It will do everything that needs doing to kill whitetails.

Depends on what you're after now doesn't it ? I have killed my share of big ones but meat has always been my priority. I have 6 good ones and two exceptional {for where I hunt} on my living room walls and four more in the computer/gun/reloading room. Add in the turkey fan/beard mounts, the fish and small game mounts and I really don't have room or a pressing need for more.

Most successful one I know uses a bow or a .30-06. Not many can pull back a 100 pound bow. He likes to blow thru both shoulders. He most likely would be as successful with 50 pounds.

Yes it does… and no reason one shouldn’t be happy shooting the easy ones. Like I do most of the time.

However, there is that player and fan analogy Those that are better than good are the players. And even in your area, they would constantly find the ones others most often only stumble into.

While getting all the meat they need with your multiple Doe tags. 😉

There is no doubt I could have killed more big ones if I had wanted to. I saw many over the years that I had to let walk because I had already filled my buck tags. The limiting factor has always been that I like to kill deer very much and lots of them. I like venison and I like my freezers full of it every year, no ifs ands or buts. To this day I'll still shoot the first 2.5 year old buck I see, even when I know there's a bigger buck in the area. No regrets and I don't give a damn if the antler crazy, QDM geeks like it or not. I really never did get those guys anyway. Rich fuggs that don't need the meat and probably don't even like it but they'll try to force QDM on everybody, spend a fortune on land, leases, game cams, stands, seed, feed, etc., etc. and basically do everything to exclude competition from their hunting grounds to make it as easy to get big antlers as they can and then beat their chest over what a great hunter they are. Yeah right, get out there on public land and do without all that crap on your own two feet and we'll talk. What a drag.

Blackheart,

Dunno what difference there is in killing deer or any other big game at 50 yards or less in thick cover, but apparently believe because you do it with New York whitetails that you're some kind of amazing.

For your info, when I started hunting in Montana it wasn't legal to kill more than two deer a year, and sometimes only one. These days you can kill more, but generally in my specific area its 2-3. I could drive around the state (which is 800 miles long) and kill maybe 9, seven of which would have to be whitetail does. But there are too many other big game animals to do that--and some of them fill far more freezer space than a whitetail doe.

I have taken 9 big game animals in Montana in one year, but aside from a whitetail or two, they included mule deer, elk, black bear and pronghorns. Many of those were taken at 50 yards or less--and have been in other years

Have also taken as many as 20-30 deer-sized or larger big game animals in one year, when also hunting other states, or sometimes countries. Some of these were when culling deer in the U.S. in various places, especially Texas, or similar-sized animals elsewhere in thick cover.

Sorry you have trouble 6x in your variable scope. I have never called it the best magnification for big game hunting, whether for deer or anything else, but back when variables were less reliable I hunted with 6x a lot, and found it worked far better than most hunters believe, even a close ranges--partly because it provides a better view through vegetation than lower-powered scopes, and especially iron sights. That's not just my experience either.

I have a 6x Redfield Widefield on a 223, jumped quite few pigs using it. It works really well.

hanco,

I bet it does!

There's also nothing like pigs for getting lots of shooting experience.

Yes, you're the greatest, most experienced hunter and marksman that ever lived and you should no doubt take every opportunity to remind everyone of that every chance you get. Feel better now ? When I started deer hunting here you were only allowed one buck with rifle per year and you MIGHT get a party permit to share with three other hunters allowing one of you to shoot a doe. Other than that, the only way you could legally shoot more than one was with an archery tag and you were only allowed one buck OR one doe with that. Now we can shoot one buck with rifle, another buck with bow, crossbow or muzzleloader, a doe with bow, crossbow or muzzleloader and get up to four doe tags, two in the first draw and two more in the second. We are also allowed to have two more doe tags signed over from another hunter. It has been that way now since the 90's and since my dad, brothers and wife are always willing to sign over some doe tags I often end up being able to kill two bucks and seven does for a total of nine per season. I usually stop at 6 or 7 because that's all we need but will sometimes shoot more if I know somebody that wants the meat. I have occasionally shot more on nuisance wildlife tags but I don't count that as hunting.

I have never claimed that--or as I pointed out before that 6x is the ideal scope magnification. (If you can find either claim in print or on the Internet, please let me know.) I also know plenty of hunters, outfitters, guides and and shooters more experienced than I am in certain aspects--and have learned plenty from them.

Have also learned a lot from being a guide and going on many hunts with several other hunters, allowing me to observe not just how they do in the field but the results from a wide variety of cartridges, bullets, scopes, etc. One of these was a month-long African cull-hunt where close to 200 big game animals were taken. I only took 13, but observed around a third of the other animals being killed, and interviewed many of the other dozen hunters on their results.

You, on the other hand, do apparently know everything about hunting/shooting close-cover deer from your personal experiences with whitetails in your particular region of one state.

Well thanks, I have killed and seen killed a shytload of the things. You aren't the only one who has hunted with a bunch of people using a bunch of different equipment and tactics over the years.

Have found hunting whitetails is always interesting--and teaches something no matter where they live. Plus, they're very good to eat!

It is clear Blackheart has forgotten more about hunting than the rest of us will ever know!!

Blackheart is a old smelly flap.

My god, we are now arguing about what is most capable close in rifle? Pick anyone, you can kill a deer with a pellet rifle close in. I can't believe this has gone on 21 pages?

Killing ship isn't that hard at close rage. Long range gets difficult.

i have hunted in swPA and northern WV (Fairmont to Clarksburg area). most of which i hunt is brush covered wood like this...



the longest deer (doe) i shot was 365+/- yards on my friend's field. i can count my fingers and toes, have a few left over, that i have shot deer from 100 to 300 yards. i don't or can't remember the number of deer that i shot under 100 yards or 50 yards. i used to hunt for antlers, but i found out that antler soup ain't that good. i am a meat hunter now, besides which, i am disabled too (i had a stroke, right arm/leg are kaput). and Mule Deer, i can remember only 2 old bucks that were anything but tasty!!!

my first deer (small spike) was about 7 or 8 feet and i got it with a Winchester top eject m94 in 30-30 with open sights. i did a bunch of killing deer with the 30-30. my furthest shot with the 30-30 was about 175 yards, give or take. i put her in the safe for about 20 -25 years and then i sent her to JES Reboring and he did his magic to make her 35/30-30. then i put on a Williams FP aperture sight and i have got 2 does and a buck.

my next rifle was a new Remington m700 Mountain rifle in 30'06 with a 4x Bushnell or Tasco, whatever it was, it was cheap. i killed a number of deer with, but it just wasn't me. so i traded it for a new Remington m700 BDL and 3-9x Swift. i traded and sold it for an ADL and then CDL and then i traded it to a Savage m116 ss adjustable muzzle brake in '06. then i traded it for a Remington m7 in 7-08 with a 3-9x Swift. a nice little rifle that deer hate. i bought and traded many more rifles. i bought alot of 3-9x Swift scopes (old ones that had an over-the-counter warranty.

i set the Swift scopes to 4x and that is way i hunted, 6 - 9x was for targets. i hunted 4x for years and then my eyes got bad and then it 6x. then 10 years or so ago, i was gifted an 1898 Springfield Armory in 30-40 Krag from my grandpap. i could not see the open sights, so i an Redfield 102K aperture sight and it was good as rain. when i was 18yo, i was in the US Army and thats when i 'found" the aperture sight. i luved m16a2 apertures, but for years, i just plain forgot about them. my son holds the record (me and 2 sons) for the furthest shot on deer (doe), 173 yards (laser range finder) with a Krag using 165gr Ranch Dog and H4198. i have old Redfield's and Lyman's aperture sights on a 7.65x53, 8x57, 30-40 Krag, '06 and a couple more. while i have only one Williams aperture.

i can't see (danged eyes) the target or the deer using open sights, but i can see the target/deer using the aperture sight. when i had the 35/30-30 with open sights during deer season. i was sitting in my spot when a doe came within 30+/- yards from me. i put the rifle on my shoulder and lined up the shot, until...........i couldn't see the doe. she was like a brown blur to me. when i lifted my head off the sights, she was there. when i put the sights back on, brown blur. she walked away from me and i had the eye doctor's appointment the next day. i have glasses now, they are a "cure" for nearsightedness.

i have a story that i did about 12+ years ago. i have a Ruger No. 1 in 270 Winchester with a 3x9x Swift. she can part your hair at 400 yards. she is a shooter!!! anyway, i have her out one season and i'm trying to still-hunt for deer. then i see the deer and it is about 10 or 12 feet. the 8 point was screened by brush (see the picture on my post and then you know about brush). i put the rifle on my shoulder and i could see the deer. i was trying to thread the needle to shoot the deer in the chest. i finally found the spot on the brush that i could shoot the buck high shoulder in the lungs. so i did and the buck ran. i waited about 1/2 hour and then i began tracking the buck. where i first shot it all i can find is a little bit of brown fur. luckily, i was on a deer trail thru the brush, when 20 yards later, i found him. i took the round out and then i seen 6x on the scope. well, can i imagine that, i used a 6x on the scope. i should have put in 4x but.... now i have 2-7x Leopold's and 2-7x Vortex's. 2x is nice for me to take hunting, but 6x is for targets/deer.

i have hunted compound and crossbow for years, but i still like my rifles. i gave up hunting archery about 3+/- years ago, it got to be pain using crossbow with one arm.

When they pass out tags like penny candy, and even to the point they let family pass them around, there must be a lot of Deer to be killed …. It can’t be all that difficult to pad your numbers with 5-7 Does per year.

Sounds more like shooting than hunting. Similar to Doves, which is a shoot more than a hunt.

Since I'm the OP, I kind of hate being the turd in the punchbowl, but after reading through all this, I realized my own experience was worth mentioning.

I have not done much pussyfooting in the deer woods recently. The lingering neuropathy in my feet will probably preclude it for at least this season. However, I did do quite a bit of time early on in Ohio and Indiana. There really was nothing better than 12 Gauge. Even when I moved my hunting to Kentucky, I still tried to spend at least one day playing Buckeye old-schooler.



I give you 3 examples:


This is a Remington 1100 with a smoothbore barrel and rifle sights. This is my first and overall favorite. I used to shoot everything with this: dove, turkey, trap, skeet-- albeit with different barrels.



Mossberg 500 with rifled barrel. What the 1100 could do at 50 yards, this one could duplicate at 100 yards. It is my turkey gun most years.



When my buddy, Big Bob, died, I inherited "Luigi." It's a Stoeger SXS with Mauser sights welded onto the rib. I still haven't had this one out.

It dawned on me that we've kind of had this discussion before:



——————–

JBabcock
Campfire Regular

Reged: 12/07/02
Posts: 560
Loc: Auburn, Wash.
Re: Brush Guns [Re: shaman]
#1062925 – 10/30/06 07:35 AM

I think the whole concept of a “brush gun” is nothing more than a myth.

I use my bolt actions for all hunting, including heavily wooded terrain. There, I can pull the trigger on it just as fast as I can any other kind of gun. And most times, you only get one shot. I can run the bolt fast enough if needed.

shaman
Campfire Ranger

Reged: 12/28/02
Posts: 1368
Loc: Neave, KY
Re: Brush Guns [Re: JBabcock]
#1063018 – 10/30/06 08:37 AM

Then I would not change a thing. Some things just work. You’re lucky enough to stop right where you are. Me? I gave up all my other vices, and I got married. I got bored with college football, I’m lousy with cars. It was either deer rifles or a saltwater aquarium.

I personally find that when I walk out to one of my bow hunting stands with my bolt 30-06 and my beanfield scope and try to hunt, I keep hearing sniggers. It may be just the wind. It may be my imagination but it might be the deer. On the other hand, I have a hard time seeing the other end of my pasture without binos. As a result, I’ve got to pick a venue and take a rifle to hunt it.

Probably my best overall deer rifle is the Savage 99 in 308. If I was going somewhere where I did not know what I run into, it would be either my primary gun for deer-sized stuff or certainly the backup. It comes as close any I would have to the one-gun rifle. The Winnie bolt gun in Ought-Six comes in #2, but it has a big honkin’ scope on it leftover from my days using it as a varmint gun. Close-in, you have your choice of which small patch of hair you want to see.

I am a hunter that shoots, rather than a shooter than hunts, so I don’t have all that many closets filled with deer rifles, but the subject of what makes a good deer rifle intrigues me. It’s a fascination instead of an obsession. I can quit at any time, honest.

The Shaman’s Myth of the Brush Gun– the real one

You’re right in the end: the brush gun is really just a myth. On the other hand, I can pick up my 1100 and a fresh box of Sluggers and walk into the cedars and something magical happens. The deer are sniggering as much as ever, but for one brief Saturday afternoon I’m away from the shaving mirror and me and the brush gun can slip into the woods.

I can stalk the deer and when I look down that 1100 is still as bright and shiny as the day I bought it. The Remington Sluggers are just as green, and as long as I stay along the ridge, and maybe angle downhill a little bit and don’t try to go back it can be like twenty-something years ago back in Hocking Hills on Opening Day. The only thing missing is the stray shots zipping through the treetops. Those I don’t miss at all.

Of course the 1100 is starting to get a little dented, but I’m not wearing my reading glasses. I don’t see the wear on the stock, or the lines on my hands. Along about sunset, I start trudging back up the ridge and as long as I do it slow enough the myth keeps working. Finally, I get back home and put my brush gun up on the rack next to Moose’s Garand and Angus’ Mosin Nagant– my sons don’t seem to mind the weight. They’d schlep a boat anchor through the woods if they thought it would get them a deer.

Once in a great while I catch some deer laughing a little to hard or too long out there in the cedars, and it makes the trip worthwhile by reaffirming the myth and topping off the freezer. KY rifle season ends, and I don’t feel bad about not buying an Ohio tag and joining the orange army the next Monday for the start of shotgun season. I put the 1100 away and don’t think about it until next year.

Pretty hard to find a topic that hasn’t been done to death multiple times. Usually some new blood brings one up and we pounce like hyenas on a chance to preach on it yet again, like a pastor giving the annual sermon on tithing……

Hello Shaman
I have killed 2 deer with a Stevens 20ga. SXS. Do yourself a favor and take out that Stoeger and give it a try. You just got to get close.

kwg

Everybody I knew that put up numbers like that used a 22 mag

It is good to know what poachers use. Perhaps Blackheart can show pictures of his vast successes.

anymore, i only shoot 3 deer (150lbs per deer and that equals to 65-70lbs of meat) to feed me. one buck tag and 2 doe tags. i don't shoot the little ones, just average to oh my God, thats a big deer!!!

"back in the day" my friend had farm depredation tags, so he and i shot many, many deer.

we hunt for doves, we would go 1 bird/15 shotgun shells to 1 bird/2-4 shotgun shells. my God, were those things quick!!! dove season opened to pheasant season and it was shooting balloons out of the sky. 1 bird/1 shotgun shell.

There is a lot of truth there. After I moved my hunting from Ohio (shotgun-only at that time) to Kentucky (anything goes), my first attempts were simply shooting my Rem 742 in 30-06 with 180 grainers from my bow treestands. That habit persisted for the better part of 30 years before I really started to extend my ranges. Let me tell you: if you thing Ought-Six is a wonder inside 200 yards, you should see what it does inside 20 yards.

I kind of had come to your conclusion myself as part of my 44 Magnum experiment. I put up a stand meant for 50 yard shots and the only buck that showed up gave me a shot at 100 yards.

As I reach 65 this month, I still have so much deer-related goo rolling around in my head. It probably comes from reading way too many Outdoor Life magazines as a kid. I started out this thread trying to figure out why a well-respected author chose a 6.5 mm Mannlicher stocked gun for close-in stalking. 18 pages later, I am scratching my head even more.

The one basic truth of deer hunting I've gleaned from all this is that inside 50 yards, anything goes.

I went through a close range phase where all I wanted to hunt with was a 30-30 or 35 REM lever action. I put scopes on them, telling myself that they were real threats at 225 yards. And they were, just not as good as a 280 Rem. The 280 Rem and its close kin are better at 50, 100, & 300. In an 8lb rifle setup, it’s not a bad carrying rifle either. A 3-9X scope set on 3X has plenty of Field of View too. Your mileage may vary. Good luck.

Killed quite a few "woods" deer from whitetail does to 300-pound mule deer bucks with the .30-06 and 200-grain Nosler Partitions. Not all were 50 yards or less, but all well inside 100.

Used this combination because at the time a bolt-action .30-06 with a 4x scope was my only big game rifle, having lost some others due to a divorce. Had long known the .30-06 was a fine all-around cartridge for Montana game, but didn't realize quite how well it worked with that one load until using it.

It worked very well on whitetail does without ruining much meat at all, and also shot lengthwise through a big mule deer buck facing almost directly away.

Of course, it also worked well on elk--which is the main reason I started loading it. But also killed one pronghorn doe with a rib-shot at 250 yards, and she dropped quickly as well--with the same minor meat-damage.

All of which is one more factor about why the longer I hunt, the more I've started disbelieving all the agonizing rifle loonies often go through to pick the "perfect" rifle and cartridge. This may seem like heresy, but there it is.

I don't think there is a perfect rifle and cartridge.

But there are darn good ones, and a couple rifles in different cartridges might suffice.

If I HAD to go with one rifle for woods hunting (under 150 yards) I'd have a Ruger #1 RSI done in .35 rem.

Alas, it wouldn't kill my deer any more dead than my beater 760 in .35 rem.

I really need to leave it in the safe this season and blood my bolt rig in .30-06.

That last paragraph should be graven in granite at the foot of Mt Rushmore.

One I plan to use this fall, close-in......




hope to hammer em'





S X S double, 30 WCF





ya!


GWB

Thanks!

Geedubya,

Nice old double!

Who made it?

Have mentioned before that I had a Sauer hammer drilling in 12x12/.30-30 for a number of years, which worked very well on game from deer to birds, both ducks and upland.

Aside from the open sights, it also had one of those flip-up tang aperture sights some older German break-action guns feature. At 100 yards, standard factory 170-grain loads shot 2" high--which was perfect.

John

John, that was a bit of a shock, yet quite refreshing to see you say that! Heresy or not……maybe we’re not on opposite ends of the spectrum in our thoughts about hunting firearms!

Though, having anything in common with me “will” likely have you labeled as a heretic! 😉 memtb

Can't argue with Geedubya. I'd carry that trackin' rig. If it'll let you pull both triggers at the same time for the big ones, it's the perfect brush gun.

Sir,

The seller had recently acquired 5 doubles. I purchased this 30 WCF Double and a Burgsmueller & Sohn Double chambered for the 405 Winchester from him.

The information I got was that the rifle was made in 1976 in Suhl, Germany. The only identifier that I saw was the "KruppStahl" stamp.





ya!

GWB

GWB,

Thanks for the info, and the photo.

A bunch of old German guns that don't really reveal much more. Have owned several with only the "Kruppstahl" stamp, which only indicates where the steel was produced. But have yet to own one that wasn't a fine gun! That .405 sounds like another....

Good hunting,
John

Never did I imagine a SxS hammer gun chambered for the .30-30. KUDOS!

my grandpap(RIP), Dad (RIP) and my uncle (RIP) had '06s. my dad and grandpap had Rem m760, while my uncle had Rem m760 (pump actions are a PA thing.) i had a Rem m700 Mountain rifle in '06 with a 4x scope. we had Rem 180gr RN factory ammo. most shots were 50 yards and under. my dad had killed a very old and fat 9 pt at 250ish yards and he used open sights. he had a 1.5 - 5?x Weaver on a see thru mount, but he never sighted it in. my dad killed alot of deer with that rifle.


the more i think about the "perfect" rifle and cartridge to hunt with is my Winchester m94 TE in 30-30 (which is now a 35/30-30) that my grandpap gave me. i killed alot of deer with that rifle. what do i do with it? i put her in the safe for about 20 years and then i forgot about her. then a few years ago i heard about the 35/30-30 and i sent it to JES Reboring and he did an awesome job.

ya!

GWB

Any Savage 99

I would love that! But I am a 30-30 nut

With a red dot no less!

Wow, Mr. GW.... that 30 WCF German hammer gun is WAY TOO COOL.

That SxS .30-30 hammer gun strikes a lot of the right notes for me: caliber, style, origins.... just so nice.

Don't currently have a .30-30 and all the ones I've had in the past were 94's. I probably won't ever have another, unless the next time I ask my usual question at the LGS, "What caliber is that No. 1 on the consignment rack?" and the answer is .30-30 and the bore is bright and condition very good. Then it will come home with me for no good reason. I already have too many rifles, which I am trying to do something about, and am saving up for another nice Italian shotgun (because I only have enough of those, not too many, and let's not even let S&W revolvers enter into the discussion.) Anyway...

there is no cartridge better than the .30-30 for killing deer in the woods (unless it's the .303 Savage.) The bullets made for it are made for it, not for whatever .308 caliber cartridge they might be loaded into. They've been refined for killing deer from that cartridge for over 100 years. It uses a very little powder, makes very little noise, has very little recoil and just plain works.

You're being far too reasonable.


Okie John

I'm traveling an hour tomorrow morning to buy a Winchester 94 in .32 Special. It will make a great Woods gun if I can scare up loaded ammo or .321" bullets. If!

.321 bullets at LG Outdoors. 165 flex tip or 170 flat tip Hornadys

Thanks

I have a Marlin 336 with a 17 1/2 inch barrel chambered in the 35-30 Wildcat cartridge. I can't think of a better deep woods rifle. It has nearly the thump of a .35 Remington, but you can make the brass out of 30-30 brass that you can get anywhere. Another perk is, you can load any bullet that a .357 magnum pistol shoots along with .35 rifle bullets, and it has a longer neck than the .35 Remington so longer bullets are easier to load. Perfect for quick shots as well with a low power scope or ghost rings.

i have a Winchester post '64 m94TE in 35/30. i use 200gr RCBS FN GC with 2400/tuft of Dacron and it goes 1726fps. i put a Williams FP aperture sight because i can't see as good as i used too. i killed two does (25ish yards) and one buck (53 yards). i was going to go 250-260gr WFN GC, but the 200gr FN GC is great. i use 30-30 Starline brass and a CH4D reloading dies.
i have Remington, Winchester and Federal 30-30 brass that i picked up and shot over the years. my son has a Savage m340 in 30-30 so i gave the brass to him.

JES Reboring
sighting it in at 100 yards

Yowsir!


GWB

William iorg wrote….”Sell wrote about the rifle and cartridge in the 1961 Gun Digest article: The 10% Rifle.”

Long time ago, but I actually recall reading that article at that time. The 10% rifle was for the rare cross clearcut shot that he occasionally had to make IIRC. I remember the story he spun was quite interesting. Re-read it many times. Thanks for jogging the memory!

There is a bit of humor associated with the 10% Deer Rifle Article.
In the 1985 Gun Digest Francis Sell wrote the article: Middle Ground Deer Rifles….

I've often wondered what Sell would think of today's array of big game bullets. Back when he was hunting, aside from the Nosler Partition the only bullets readily available were cup-and-cores--which is of course one reason many hunters used lower-velocity cartridges for "woods" hunting": C&C bullets worked most reliably at close range when started at moderate velocities--and ruined less meat, important to Sell when he was hunting for lumber camps.

But today there's a far wider variety of bullets, some of which work very reliably at close range even when started considerably faster--and also ruin less meat, especially "monolithics"--which also penetrate very well even in lighter weights than "traditional" for close-in cartridges. I know this due to actually using them to kill a bunch of game from up close to several hundred yards--as has Eileen. And anymore meat is the main reason we hunt--well, along with liking to hunt. We already have too many inedible big game parts hanging on our walls (and from the garage rafters), and have seen about the same amount of meat damage from lighter-weight monolithics at 3000+ fps as larger, slower cup-and cores started at much slower velocities.

all of my rifles are either the cup-n-core or cast bullets. COWW (clip on wheel weights) with a skosh of tin or Lyman #2 with a skosh of tin kill deer and black bear. you can shoot on the shoulder or behind the shoulder and it will exit the game. C&C bullets are great for deer or black bear too. i, personally, no longer use premium or monolithic bullets. the Nosler BT really wastes meat when the impact is over 2800fps. what the BT does at that speed (2800fps+) is like a hand grenade. it goes in and fragments. lung soup with chunks of heart and little itty bitty bone fragments on the entry shoulder and the BT never exits. if you do 2800fps and under, it will do a perfect mushroom bullet. this is just my experience with the BT bullet (6.5, .277, .284 and .308"). i don't do Nosler BT anymore because of the price went way up. instead, i use Hornady SST and i limit myself to 2800fps because the range of deer/bear is only under 60 yards.

the cast bullets, which i use for hunting, are "eat up to the hole(s)" they will leave. i try to shoot the game behind the shoulder, but every once in a while, i will take a shoulder shot and they will exit the game and "eat up to the exit hole." the wound channel leaves only a hole in muscle tissue (heart or the shoulder), while the lung tissue (permanent and temporary channels ) is destroyed by the cast bullet. the velocity of the cast depends on the caliber of the bullet, but it is 1200 - 2000fps (.512 - .308").

i guess i'm an old timer or a cheap basturd. whatever it is, i still eat deer.

One point Sell made and I find jives with my experience is the ability of certain cartridges to penetrate brush better than others. Like him, I’ve found that velocities between about 2100-2500 do better in this regard than higher velocity loadings. This is total heresy today, but if I was to pick one velocity for all my hunting it would be 2400 or thereabouts.

Many years ago there was a test run by a hunting magazine (Shooting Times or Guns and Ammo) writer, that shot various bullet types, styles, velocities, through a maze of wooden dowel rods. The higher velocity, spritzer bullets actually maintained there initial path better than the bullets accepted as “brush buster” cartridges/ bullets! I think that his conclusion was that the higher bullet rotational speed (gyroscopic effect) helped those bullets remain better stabilized! memtb

tdoyka,
Francis Sell’s thoughts on C&C bullets mirror yours.
In the article, Middle Ground Deer Rifles Sell wrote of C&C bullets shot from magnum rifles blowing up at close range and Sell included the Partition bullets in this thought.
Sell felt C&C bullets performed acceptably at 3,000 fps and below in the 6mm’s, 25’s and 6.5’s.

Sell, in his American Rifleman article on his .25-35 Tomcat wrote that he felt the best velocity for the “Brush Busting bullet” was between 2, 250 and 2,500 fps.
In Rifle Magazine No. 83, September 1982 Sell wrote of his .25-35 Tomcat pushing the 117-grain Hornady round nose bullet to 2,585 fps. It was this article, I believe where Sell wrote he was getting a bit more velocity from his cartridge than originally intended.

Our deer and pigs are not overly large and like you, most everyone I know shoots C&C bullets almost exclusively.
The Hornady FTX bullet is a plastic tip C&C bullet with a reputation for Rapid Expansion inside 75 yards. The FTX bullet, when fired from the .308ME, 307 Win, and .300 Savage is hard on front shoulders, even when the bullet enters just behind them.
Many of us have observed hair blown off the entrance wound in a 1” circle. This is seen with shots taken inside 75 yards. The FTX bullet does kill well but in many respects the tissue damage is smiilar to the 130-grain .270 Win when it is used at close range.
All that bloodshot meat goes to the Ravens. Like a lot of olderguys I would rather it went to me – the old “Cake and Eat It Too’

If I think about what my my perfect deer rifle would have been. It's a past tense, my knees are shot. I'm a sit and wait type, now.
1) weight, I would be packing it in my hands in front.
2) reasonably short for both quick movement and not getting tangled in the bush.
3) stock ergonomics, it would have to come up fast. The subtle shaping of the stock has a big effect, often ignored.
4)sight picture, your eye should line up with the sight, even if it's closed. This is a stock fit question. again often ignored.
5) a single sight to line with the deer would be easier.

I'll leave the cartridge and bullet choice for debate, though I think they are almost irrelevant .

I sure wish I could find some more of Sell's articles scanned so I could keep them for posterity. I buy all his books as I run into them, but they are not that common where I live.

that is good to know that Sell has wrote that.

the full grown deer averages about 150 lbs, but 200-250 lbs isn't unheard of. black bears go from 100lbs to 700lbs. 10 or so miles from my place, someone shot a bear that weighed 694lbs. my first and only black bear was weighed 396lbs, which was 3/4 mile from my place. i used a Remington m760 in 308 with 150gr Hornady RN and IMR 4064 (2700+fps+/- i think and the distance was about 20 +/- yards).

i never used a Hornady FTX bullet, but my brother swears by them. he uses a Marlin m1895 in 45/70 with 300gr Hornady FTX factory ammo. hard on shoulders, it is!!! i used 200 and 240gr Hornady XTP in a Ruger Super Redhawk (7.5" barrel) in 44 Mag and a hot load of Win296 years ago. it was hard on shoulders too. i shot 5 or 6 deer with them and they were 20-30 yards away from me, except a doe that was 120+/- yards and the shot was thru-n-thru with no expansion. i wish i still that gun!!! man, could she shoot!!! now i have a Ruger Super Blackhawk (4 5/8" barrel) in 44 Mag, but i prefer 44 Specials and 255gr Keith-type bullets and a Skeeter load of Unique. i killed about 4 or 5 does at about 25ish yards.

i have a 1972 Winchester m94 Top Eject in 35/30-30 (JES Reboring) and 200gr RCBS FN GC with 2400/tuft of dacron that goes 1726fps. i've killed three deer with it. 2 does about 25+/- yards and 1 buck, 53 yards away from me. they would "jog" about 15 - 20 yards after the shot, look around and then they gave up the ghost. the shot on the buck was high in the lungs, but i blame that one on me. i guess i jerked the trigger instead of squeezing it. anyway, the back of the lungs were trashed (on all 3 of deer), just a .35 caliber hole(s) and a 1 1/2 - 2i" temporary wound channel.

this buck was shot by a Ruger #1 in 270 Win with 130gr Nosler BT with IMR4320 at about 3000fps. i shot the buck about 10 - 12 feet in the shoulder (there was brush in the way of behind the shoulder shot). the buck ran about 30+/- yards and then it died. while tracking the buck thru the brush, there was NO blood. when i found it, there was NO blood. when i field dressed the buck, there was NO Blood until i penetrated the diaphragm. i found the blood of lung soup and chunks of heart. i found the bullet, er well, small pieces of the bullet. the bullet fragment on the shoulder and it went into the lung cavity and the heart. it did not exit the lung cavity or bruise the off side of the deer. aka, lung soup with chunks of heart.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/FP1RbOG.jpg?1[/img]

it was about the time i decided on the 2800fps method on all calibers of the Nosler BT. when i did 2800fps (on all calibers .257 - .308") the bullet never fragmented, instead the BT mushrooms. i guess that Hornady SST is party to the 2800fps method too. i load the SST into my 7x57 and 270 (both are 140gr SST) but i am on cast binge right now, so i don't know.

tdoyka,

I've killed a bunch of big game with cup-and-core bullets, and still do on occasion. In fact I just published an article on 'em in a recent issue of Sports Afield, citing around 2800 fps as a good maximum muzzle velocity for consistent performance, whether on deer or even larger game.

May have taken more deer with the 150-grain Hornady Spire Point from the .270 Winchester than any other single bullet, handloaded to around 2850 fps, including one 300+ pound mule deer buck--and I started using it several years before the Interlock ring was introduced. Back then Spire Points already had a reputation for being one of the tougher cup-and-cores, and I later learned this was due to Hornady using a somewhat harder lead alloy for the cores than most other bullets. Have also used various Spire PointInterlocks in calibers from .25 to 9.3mm to take deer and quite a bit of larger game, from bull caribou to elk-sized.

But have also taken a bunch of animals with Sierras, usually but not always GameKings, and have probably used the 160 7mm GK started at 2700 fps from the 7x57 to take more deer-sized African "plains game" than any other bullet at ranges out to 400 yards, during 8 safaris. Never recovered one. Am not exactly unfamiliar with Speer Hot-Cors, especially the 105-grain 6mm and 165-grain .30. Have a 165 in my collection that took a running whitetail buck at around 100 yards, using a .30-06 handload that got around 2800 fps. The buck was angling almost directly away, and the bullet end up in the far shoulder, retaining 85% of its weight.

Yes, I also use quite a few "monolithic" bullets for hunting, partly because I live in Montana and they tend to penetrate deeper on elk if the angle is a steep one--but also because they work fine at a wide range of velocities, and much of the local country can result in shots from 25 to 400+ yards. And they do tend to ruin less venison on closer shots, even when started at 3000 fps or more.

The other factor is that due to my job I have to try a wide range of bullets in significant enough numbers to get a good idea of how they work.

Retirement has not fully sunken in yet, huh?
HA!

Wishing you and your bride all the best!

Thanks!

Still am fooling around with firearms, just not as much anymore....

Nice buck, tdoyka. I had almost the same experience with a buck I described about 20 pages ago in this thread. It was a 30-06 180 gr corelokt going considerably slower, though. Less than 10 feet, he ran like a freight train for 50 yards without a heart. Shot behind the shoulder, five small exit holes in a 10 inch pattern, and not even pieces of heart - just red jelly. I think, his heart was mid-beat and full of blood like a balloon like shooting a milk jug full of water at 10 feet. Anyway, that corelokt blew up. They've behaved perfectly for me 30 yards and out.

Brush is a crap shoot. When I was young and dumb(er) I shot a buck through a Christmas tree on top of a mountain. Figured it was only 50 yards and those 180gr round-nose corelokts are brush busters. He was only 5 or 10 feet behind the tree and it was the thin flimsy outer tips of the branches I had to get through. He ran at the shot and not like he had been hit. I ran the bolt, dropped to the irons (we haven't even mentioned see-thru mounts in 20+ pages?!) and put one through his lungs. No evidence that the first shot even touched him. I've also, had good luck with those bullets and brush, so...

Thanks for keeping the Sell stuff coming! Very much enjoying it.

Also, reading a bunch more Mule Deer and thinking about my own 1% or 10% or fill-in-the-blank % rifle. Geedubya's fantastic 30 30 double notwithstanding, that's what we're really talking about. Maybe.

1eyed mule,

Ran my first "brush" test close to 50 years ago, by shooting through a bush where the branches didn't exceed 1/2" in diameter. The bush was 3+ feet thick, and I could just see the aiming point on the target I set up behind it.

Tried two rifles, which were pretty much opposites--a .243 Winchester with the 105 Speer Hot-Cor at around 2900, and a .358 Winchester with the 250-grain Hornady round-nose at around 2300.

The .243 did noticeably better, and my guess at the time (and still is) that the smaller-diameter bullets had less chance of hitting brush.

But the owner of the .358 had once shot through a 6" diameter lodgepole pine and killed the mule deer behind the pine, using a 250-grain Winchester factory load. Wouldn't bet on the .243 doing the same thing.

in the early to mid '90s, i had it in my head that a premium bullet is as good as gold. i bought 85gr Barnes X bullet in 243 Win. i eventually (with many powders) got it to shoot about 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" at 100 yards(5 shots/bench). deer season came and i shot a doe some 30 yards with it. a doe that ran 300 some yards thru the brush and mountain laurel which caused me to be on my knees and hands looking for the doe. at last, i found it. i drug her out on my knees. i field dressed her and i was surprised. the entrance was like the exit wound. in-between it looked as if i shoved a pencil thru. the X bullet never expanded. well my dreams of a gold bullet were washed away by reality. i gave up on the premium bullet and since then it is a C&C or cast bullet. there was a time that i dreamed about going West for muleys and elk, while going up north for caribou, moose and grizzly bear was on my mind. after my stroke (had it when i was 39yo) caused my right leg and arm to be about 20 - 25% good, my dreams and my job went away. but that's alright, now i'll drive Polaris utv to within 50 - 60 yards to my spot for deer. my brother built my "ground blind" and put in a swivel chair. i'll sit there for hours.

my collection of used bullets is close to zero or none. it was either thru-n-thru or fragmented.

tdoka,

Yeah, the first Barnes Xs were not all that accurate--and didn't open reliably. I tested my first, both on targets and game, in 1989--if I recall correctly. They didn't group very well, even in otherwise very accurate rifles--and didn't open reliably.

I got to now Randy Brooks around 10-12 years later, and he acknowledged the problems. He said the major problem he had early on was getting consistent copper--often supposedly "pure" copper was harder than it should have been, which not only caused expansion but accuracy problems.

He couldn't afford to buy more consistent copper until the late 1990s--and that's when I found X-Bullets (not the present TSXs) started grouping better and expanding more reliably. This included the 120-grain X-Bullet started at around 3000 fps from a 6.5x55--which grouped three shots into 1/2" or so at 100 yards--and expanded very well on a pronghorn buck at just under 400 yards. (There were some other animals taken along the way.) Also has great luck both in accuracy and expansion with the 250-grain 9.3 around that time.

Anyway, the accuracy and expansion problems were totally solved with the introduction of the Tipped Triple-Shock X-Bullet in 2007. Eileen and I have used a bunch of them since then, and I've also seen around 100 more animals taken with them by fellow hunters. They work very well but it took a while to work out the details. Just as it has with various other bullets.

Have a big tackle box filled with bullets recovered from big in calibers from .224" on up to .40+--and hunting notes that describe how each worked, along with the specific animal, range, muzzle velocity, etc.

Haha! The ole ".358 bunker-buster"!

my grandpap and my dad (RIP) had a Remington m760 in '06, while my uncle had a Remington m7600 in '06. i had a Remington A,B AND CDL and a Mountain rifle and a Savage m116 with adjustable muzzle brake in '06. we shot Remington 180gr RN factory ammo. as a matter of fact, my dad bought 5000 180gr Remington RN cartridges after Remington decided not to make them that year (i think it was in the late '80s or early '90s). we could not find them. there was 180gr Rem spire points, but no round noses. when they do the RN, my dad went to gun store and ordered 5000 cartridges. he shot only 400-500 cartridges. so i got the Remington m760 and about 4500 cartridges. my son has my grandpap's '06 and he comes to me every year to "borrow" the a box or two of 180gr RN.

and yes, both of the Remington's are see thru sights.

i bought a early war Arisaka Type 99 with a Lyman or Redfield aperture sight in 30'06. even after 2 or 3 years, i still have shoot it.

Ain't that some screwy stuff?

Nice gun GWB.

Cool, practical.

Even if hammer SxS, 30-30, and red dot don't seem like something you would
see together.

i know that bullet didn't group well and i'm ok with that. i didn't know about the copper until a few years ago.


i luv the Husqvarna m46 in 9.3x57. it is a cast bullet dream. i use 280gr RN GC and my favorite 275gr WFN GC with IMR4895 that goes around 1800-1900fps. i've shot 6 or 7 deer with the 275gr and 2 or 3 deer with the 280gr. the 9.3x57 really puts the deer down, i'm talking a DRT (dead right there). this is my second favorite rifle (#1 being a Winchester m94 in 35/30-30).

9.3x57




i had my gunsmith D&T for a scope, bent the bolt handle, put a Buehler 2 postion safety and a Dayton-Traister cocking piece/speed lock striker spring (aka cock on opening kit). i had a hard time using the original cock on closing, being one handed.

This girl is named GG. She knows her name but will not eat from my hand.

The Whitetail does try to bully her but she is rather tough. I have thought a 125 grain cast bullet.327 Federal from the Henry would be enough.




These young Axis hinds are considerably tougher when a body shot is the choice. They are regularly taken with .17 Hornets and neck shots.




Just a few years ago it was easy to start a conversation like this in a San Angelo coffee shop or Cafe. Today the Man Bun prevails. 

I will say with non-tipped cup and core like speer hc, hornady il, sierra ph have take a lot deer sized game at close range with 270, 280, 243 100-140 gr bullets. Always
worked great and normally full penetration on deer including mule deer and northern whitetails. On bigger pigs normally do not exit but still penetrate plenty even on shoulder and raking shots. These all going between 29-3100 fps. Tipped bullets like btips/sst are a bit more explosive in this velocity range and I have migrated to bonded versions for the poly-tipped version but lower velocity would help

Lou

My mauser in 45-70