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You can't even drill a water well on your own property in the Skagit basin because the tribes say its taking water away from the Skagit water shed hurting the fish runs. Its B.S. Its not rocket science Google fish run numbers before tribal netting started and after, just like Elk herds in Yellowstone before the wolves and after.
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Pull the nets out of the rivers and mouth and you will see a big difference in fish returns after, but it will never happen. Go up to the Mouth of the Baker river were it dumps into the Skagit in Concrete and watch the tribal netting when the sockeye are running then you will get it.
Last edited by sherm_61; 08/04/23.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2011
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You wan to help fish shoot sea lions. I'd do it for $5 a piece. Stack em up like cordwood.
_______________________________________________________ An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
LOL
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2013
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You wan to help fish shoot sea lions. I'd do it for $5 a piece. Stack em up like cordwood. That is a GREAT IDEA... You should do it. And post lots and lots of pictures on the Web.
If you are not actively engaging EVERY enemy you encounter... you are allowing another to fight for you... and that is cowardice... plain and simple.
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This is a very uncomfortable conundrum for the sustainable energy zealots. The dams generate electricity with miniscule carbon footprints. It isn't a conundrum at all, those dams should never have been built in the first place.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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As for dams on the Klamath River, only one was built with a good fish ladder. There is no ice cold water rsleased from these dams, because there is no cold water stored in these shallow water, algea infested pools of water. The ability to dump water volumn from the bottom of Copco and Irongate dams does not exist. If the Klamath is to be restored the Trinity River needs to run free. Thats where the water issue is, taking out the other dams might help, without the water from the Trinity forget about saving anything. Removing the Trinity dams will never happen. It's now supplying California's population, which as we all know is more important than fish. This is a complete different situation than the Columbia and Snake River problems. There you have a choice, that effects the west coast. Remove the columbia dams and remove power from most Washington, Oregon and a considerable amount of California, plus some of Idaho. The lake feeding the river above these dams to be removed on the Klamath River was 69 degrees surface yesterday, with an average depth of 8 ft, not much cold water to release. One problem is hatchery removal, and thinking that the hatchery and native had not cross spawned, prior to trying to segerate them! Goverment at work. The netting, sealions and over fishing the off shore comments are right on!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2006
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This is a very uncomfortable conundrum for the sustainable energy zealots. The dams generate electricity with miniscule carbon footprints. It isn't a conundrum at all, those dams should never have been built in the first place. Yes, but it's Kleeeennn energy.
Hunt with Class and Classics
Religion: A founder of The Church of Spray and Pray
Acquit v. t. To render a judgment in a murder case in San Francisco... EQUAL, adj. As bad as something else. Ambrose Bierce “The Devil's Dictionary”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2011
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Sherm 61 You totally get it! Best post on the thread. I was a boat dealer in OR for 30 years. Actually there are no boats dragging salmon off their spawning beds. By the time salmon start to spawn they are too dark to eat. Unless you are talking dogs and pinks where the processors make lots of money on ripe roe. You list a lot of issues but there are so many more in so many places, ways, and killing salmon at so many different stages. Last number I heard for the Columbia dams was over 10% of smolts are killed at each dam. But the real elephant in the room is the proverbial elephant being inspected by blind men. No one man gets the real picture because everyone is looking at different parts. Divide and conquer... this is truly where we are. We don't always agree, but when we do we're usually both right Again, having worked in the field trying to keep runs going, the statement in bold is something I discovered as a student before even starting to work with salmonid issues. The commercial fishers blamed the loggers, who blamed the Indian netters, who blamed the cattle grazers in the headwaters, who blamed the seal lovers, who blamed the hatchery folks, who blamed the gravel extraction industry (where I lived at the time), who blamed the recreational fishers, who blamed the Fish and Game folks, and on and on and on...............................and no on could (or wanted to) look at their part in the deal. On the big rivers, there's also dams, irrigation, municipal uses, industry, etc.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
member of the cabal of dysfunctional squirrels?
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Joined: Sep 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 45,559 Likes: 32 |
As for dams on the Klamath River, only one was built with a good fish ladder. There is no ice cold water rsleased from these dams, because there is no cold water stored in these shallow water, algea infested pools of water. The ability to dump water volumn from the bottom of Copco and Irongate dams does not exist. If the Klamath is to be restored the Trinity River needs to run free. Thats where the water issue is, taking out the other dams might help, without the water from the Trinity forget about saving anything. Removing the Trinity dams will never happen. It's now supplying California's population, which as we all know is more important than fish. This is a complete different situation than the Columbia and Snake River problems. There you have a choice, that effects the west coast. Remove the columbia dams and remove power from most Washington, Oregon and a considerable amount of California, plus some of Idaho. The lake feeding the river above these dams to be removed on the Klamath River was 69 degrees surface yesterday, with an average depth of 8 ft, not much cold water to release. One problem is hatchery removal, and thinking that the hatchery and native had not cross spawned, prior to trying to segerate them! Goverment at work. The netting, sealions and over fishing the off shore comments are right on! Interesting you brought up the Trinity situation. Some folks don't realize that by some estimates up to 2/3 of the spawning area in that system disappeared when they put in the dams up there to divert water to the Sacramento system. A lot of water that, as you say, not many want to see go back into the Trinity/Klamath system.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
member of the cabal of dysfunctional squirrels?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Heym, I'm no fish guy by a long shot...and I don't carry a thermometer in my pocket...but the fish ladder you spoke of is on the last dam downstream...Irongate. It goes directly into the hatchery, I have accompanied at least 4 skool kid field trips to the hatchery over the years, it is and has been a hugely successful operation for 60+ years. Copco 1, Copco 2 and Irongate are over 77 feet deep full pool and the water IS ice cold below the surface. Link River dam/Klamath Lake itself is a pool of water and cowschidt, horrible water quality...John Boyle dam is only 12 feet deep...at each succeeding dam downstream the water quality IMPROVES because the temp and silt load go down. Time will tell, but I predict more stress on the Chinook runs. And just as a side note, 2 of the Karuk Tribal hires, paid as full fledged fish biologists and dam removal experts? I know them personally, neither graduated High School. The fix is in...and Warren Buffet's PacifiCorp is smiling.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The 3 biggest concerns for returning runs here are HABITAT, HABITAT and HABITAT! If they can’t spawn no amount of money will increase escapement.
As Calvin mentioned earlier the wash from the roadways after the first heavy fall rains has killed untold numbers of coho here. The oil, rubber and crap from cars all summer long washes into the creeks and rivers during low water of summer and since dilution is the solution to pollution there’s not enough water to dilute it to tolerable levels.
Habitat HAS to be a priority!
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
--------------------------------------------------------- ~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2005
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A couple kids with .223's shooting seals and pelicans would make a discernable difference.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/9...gon-has-produced-few-discernable-resultsToday in "your tax dollars at work" news, the state of Oregon has found out that $9 billion it has doled out to help its salmon population (yes, the fish) has failed to produce any discernable results. And to think, that's perfectly good money we could have sent to Ukraine! A new report from NBC affiliate KGW8 this week noted that "hundreds" of projects the Columbia River Basin has undertaken - including "habitat restoration to bounty programs on other fish that prey on salmon" - have all failed to produce results. The revelation came from a Oregon State University co-authored by Bill Jaeger, an applied economics professor at the university. His research was recently published in the journal PLOS One. His study looked at 50 years of salmon return data from the lowest dam on the Columbia River. The study found that before the dams went up, 16 million salmonids returned to the basin each year. By the 2010s, that number had fallen to 1.5 million. “For a long time, there have been questions about the effectiveness of a wide range of activities taken to try to restore salmon and steelhead in the Columbia River Basin. We do not find evidence of an increase in wild fish,” Jaeger said. The salmon are facing pressure from “hydro, habitat, harvest and hatcheries,” he added, noting there have been "steep declines" in coho, chinook, sockeye and steelhead populations because dams block fish from swimming upriver. “Many of those species listed since the 1990s under the Endangered Species Act are ones for which the numbers have declined and continue to be of great concern,” Jaeger added. He railed on the egregious spending's lack of impact: “Cost effectiveness was a term that was occasionally used in a report but was never really undertaken as a serious methodology for determining where to spend money. The operations and the administration of these projects could have done a lot more to do serious cost-effective analysis to determine which of these activities seems to be generating more bang for the buck.” He concluded: “I'm not sure how useful it is to talk about whether the money was wasted or not. That's behind us. I think what one can do, and what one should do, is look at this evidence and ask 'what should we be doing differently going forward?'” The salmon are screwed…. they have too many interface points with us, too many ways things can go sideways in the various stages of their life cycle. I agree that it can be argued in good faith that it’d be throwing good money after bad to keep trying to save the runs. I’d add to that that it’s be a pathetic state of affairs if we don’t at least keep trying. I catch them in the ocean. Not that that’s better karma or anything like that; but the quality of the meat is off the charts when they haven’t sniffed freshwater yet. Yes, that calm looking pond is the Pacific. She lays down for us some days.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,682 Likes: 3 |
The 3 biggest concerns for returning runs here are HABITAT, HABITAT and HABITAT! If they can’t spawn no amount of money will increase escapement.
As Calvin mentioned earlier the wash from the roadways after the first heavy fall rains has killed untold numbers of coho here. The oil, rubber and crap from cars all summer long washes into the creeks and rivers during low water of summer and since dilution is the solution to pollution there’s not enough water to dilute it to tolerable levels.
Habitat HAS to be a priority! They cover millions of square miles of "habitat" in a huge variety of circumstances and situations with salmon being either a target or innocent bystanders, but killed just the same.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2015
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Heym, I'm no fish guy by a long shot...and I don't carry a thermometer in my pocket...but the fish ladder you spoke of is on the last dam downstream...Irongate. It goes directly into the hatchery, I have accompanied at least 4 skool kid field trips to the hatchery over the years, it is and has been a hugely successful operation for 60+ years. Copco 1, Copco 2 and Irongate are over 77 feet deep full pool and the water IS ice cold below the surface. Link River dam/Klamath Lake itself is a pool of water and cowschidt, horrible water quality...John Boyle dam is only 12 feet deep...at each succeeding dam downstream the water quality IMPROVES because the temp and silt load go down. Time will tell, but I predict more stress on the Chinook runs. And just as a side note, 2 of the Karuk Tribal hires, paid as full fledged fish biologists and dam removal experts? I know them personally, neither graduated High School. The fix is in...and Warren Buffet's PacifiCorp is smiling. Heym, I'm no fish guy by a long shot...and I don't carry a thermometer in my pocket...but the fish ladder you spoke of is on the last dam downstream...Irongate. It goes directly into the hatchery, I have accompanied at least 4 skool kid field trips to the hatchery over the years, it is and has been a hugely successful operation for 60+ years. Copco 1, Copco 2 and Irongate are over 77 feet deep full pool and the water IS ice cold below the surface. Link River dam/Klamath Lake itself is a pool of water and cowschidt, horrible water quality...John Boyle dam is only 12 feet deep...at each succeeding dam downstream the water quality IMPROVES because the temp and silt load go down. Time will tell, but I predict more stress on the Chinook runs. And just as a side note, 2 of the Karuk Tribal hires, paid as full fledged fish biologists and dam removal experts? I know them personally, neither graduated High School. The fix is in...and Warren Buffet's PacifiCorp is smiling. You are correct about irongate and the hatchery. Copco one and two are pools of frog water from the basin. and Klamath Lake. John C. Boyle is way deeper than 12 feet. Not sure how much, and has the best fish ladder in my opinion. Keno will be left and it is close to the 12 ft depth. As long as the Trinity is diverted iinto the Sacramento it’s game off. Not to mention opening up the the mouth so fish could enter the system, during low water. Lots of man made mistakes on the Klamath River system. The best thing no dams will do , is help with parasites in the river. They can flush and dry.
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 28,738 Likes: 13 |
Heym,
Do you support Jeff O’s outlook on American politics?
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 28,738 Likes: 13 |
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/9...gon-has-produced-few-discernable-resultsToday in "your tax dollars at work" news, the state of Oregon has found out that $9 billion it has doled out to help its salmon population (yes, the fish) has failed to produce any discernable results. And to think, that's perfectly good money we could have sent to Ukraine! A new report from NBC affiliate KGW8 this week noted that "hundreds" of projects the Columbia River Basin has undertaken - including "habitat restoration to bounty programs on other fish that prey on salmon" - have all failed to produce results. The revelation came from a Oregon State University co-authored by Bill Jaeger, an applied economics professor at the university. His research was recently published in the journal PLOS One. His study looked at 50 years of salmon return data from the lowest dam on the Columbia River. The study found that before the dams went up, 16 million salmonids returned to the basin each year. By the 2010s, that number had fallen to 1.5 million. “For a long time, there have been questions about the effectiveness of a wide range of activities taken to try to restore salmon and steelhead in the Columbia River Basin. We do not find evidence of an increase in wild fish,” Jaeger said. The salmon are facing pressure from “hydro, habitat, harvest and hatcheries,” he added, noting there have been "steep declines" in coho, chinook, sockeye and steelhead populations because dams block fish from swimming upriver. “Many of those species listed since the 1990s under the Endangered Species Act are ones for which the numbers have declined and continue to be of great concern,” Jaeger added. He railed on the egregious spending's lack of impact: “Cost effectiveness was a term that was occasionally used in a report but was never really undertaken as a serious methodology for determining where to spend money. The operations and the administration of these projects could have done a lot more to do serious cost-effective analysis to determine which of these activities seems to be generating more bang for the buck.” He concluded: “I'm not sure how useful it is to talk about whether the money was wasted or not. That's behind us. I think what one can do, and what one should do, is look at this evidence and ask 'what should we be doing differently going forward?'” The salmon are screwed…. they have too many interface points with us, too many ways things can go sideways in the various stages of their life cycle. I agree that it can be argued in good faith that it’d be throwing good money after bad to keep trying to save the runs. I’d add to that that it’s be a pathetic state of affairs if we don’t at least keep trying. I catch them in the ocean. Not that that’s better karma or anything like that; but the quality of the meat is off the charts when they haven’t sniffed freshwater yet. Yes, that calm looking pond is the Pacific. She lays down for us some days. What’s the over/under on how many cocks fit in Jeff’s head?
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 2,044 Likes: 3 |
It doesn't matter how much habitat you have if there's nothing to use it. There were dams on the Skagit for 40+ years with the best runs of Steelhead and Salmon in the lower 48 untill the Bolt decision, its been a steady decline since. Like I said spend a considerable amount of time on the rivers and witness whats going on instead of believing everthing you read.
Last edited by sherm_61; 08/04/23.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Tribes hire biologists to give the opinions they want to hear. There are lots of studies on the klamath supporting both sides of the issue. Money won. Trinity is still the best chance to cure. I wonder why they didn’t start there. I actually would like to see one , tall dam with bottom outlets. That backed water from the California line to Keno. Then we could store cold water and create a great fishery.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Heym, I think all of us in the PNW want healthy runs. I just don’t think it’s gonna happen. Their life cycle is too complex; there’s too many places it can go wrong.
Contrast that to the ling cod, another of my favorite fish. I understand they were in trouble from overfishing in the 70’s. Some limits were put on their catch and BOOM, they rebounded and are THRIVING. But they have a very simple life cycle with minimal human interface. Reducing take and not allowing trawlers to scrape the bottom for them was all it took. We screw salmon in multiple ways, from the spawning beds to the ocean and back again.
I certainly support trying, but I’m not optimistic about saving the salmon runs. Nobody quite knows what human-caused warming is going to do to the northern Pacific, although the snow crab massacre is really spooky…. but it’s likely “something” will be changing and with our luck, it’ll be bad for the salmon.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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