Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

(bigger picture needed)

MallardAddict,
Welcome to the Square Table, pick your Sir Name for Knighthood.

Great rifle and scope combo you are getting set up there.
I am saving an old Leupold 1.75-6X36mm ER with heavy duplex reticle for a .458 WM too.
That is another ideal .458 scope for one and done.

What powder and what bullet weight to start with ?
If you are leaving it to me to specify: AA-2230 at 72.0 to 80.0 grains with any 400-ish grainer, and any COL you like.

The .458 WinMag is probably the most versatile cartridge in the world for loading.
About any fast to medium burn rate powder and any bullet from 250-gr to 600-gr (or heavier, just for kicks)
can be used in the .458 WinMag in some excellent combination.
Any powder good in a .223/5.56 will be outstanding in the .458 WinMag.
Just pick one and go to town with it.

Got any preferences ?



Just kidding.
With all the lies told against the .458 Winchester Magnum, a little levity in this vein is only fair.

Will be trying Winchester STABALL with some 528-gr Lehighs for supersonic in "Tootsie"
the .458 B&M+ of 1:10" twist with 17" barrel length (16.9" actual).
She has same case capacity and throat as the .458 WinMag.
Same loads can then be tried in Freki the .458 WM (24.25" barrel length, 1:10" twist).
Both barrels are Pac-Nor, #5 Sporter on Freki, #4 sporter on Tootsie.
Both have Near Mfg rails and interchangeable scopes.
This will give another check on how shortening from 24" to 17" affects MV,
this time with a heavier bullet and slower powder, ought to be a wash,
about the same as with a lighter bullet and a faster powder,
and this time with same twist.
The difference between 1:10" and 1:14" is near insignificant, of course.
1:10" might be of use with the subsonic-suppressed plinking with the long bullets.
Here is 1:10" twist Tootsie:















Tootsie makes a better sleeping-tent/latrine rifle with a little red-dot on her rail,
or maybe a little flashlight and laser needs to be hung at the forend tip, like on Ol'Fugly.

You know, the SAAMI standard twist for the .458 Lott is 1:10" twist.
It should not make much difference,
but it does cause slightly higher pressures/lower velocities than the 1:14" twist.
That is part of the reason a .458 WinMag can do 2250 fps with 500-grainers at 3.340" COL and 60,000 psi,
whereas the .458 Lott, bless its heart, can only do 2300 fps with 500-grainer at 3.600" COL and 62,500 psi.
Freki with 1:10" twist and SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber/throat will not suffer in comparison to a SAAMI .458 Lott.
This is Freki:



Geri with 1:14" twist has same 24.25" barrel length as Freki, but Geri has a throat that is 0.2" shorter than SAAMI.
Comparing Freki to Geri with standard .458 WinMag Hornady factory loads ought to show Geri to be the faster rifle.
Freki will lose a little velocity to both longer throat and faster twist, for same factory load.
Here is predicted winner on MV, Geri:



Adding the scope caps and with both Freki and Geri wearing same scopes (different rings and bases)
they both weigh about 9#3oz as shown here.
Freki: #5 Pac-Nor
Geri: #5A Douglas (?) has a little heavier barrel contour,
Tootsie weighs about 8#9oz as shown above, #4 Pac-Nor cut to 16.9" length, and a few ounces heavier of scope.
All of that is on my Gander Mountain meat scale so not exact but pretty close.
All three rifles have 0.458" groove diameter.

Two other .458 WinMag rifles are available for comparison, both with 0.458" groove diameter:
McGowen-barreled 23" length, 1:14" twist SAAMI chamber/throat
and a Winchester factory M70 (FN/SC) with 23.75" barrel length, 1:14" twist.

I am ready to shoot if the pine trees will just quit falling over in my back yard.

Still making lemonade here, as usual.

Pm sent to avoid muddying the thread sir.

Sir Ron,

After seeing you sing the praises of the B&C Medalist stocks, I’m considering one as a rough country alternative for my wood stock in the Win M-70 460 G&A - the acacia and dense mopane are the best sandpaper to inflict fine scratches on the buttstock.

Also thinking about one for whatever 0.458” wildcat iteration the Ruger #1 416 Rigby chambered barrel, currently stacked on the workbench, assumes in the next DGR.

Sir Khulu,
The B&C stock for the Ruger M77 Mk II/Hawkeye is a relatively new thing.
They make it with a big barrel channel that easily accepted a #5 Shilen Sporter.
You won't have to do much sanding to fit a fat .458 barrel.
They call it a "free-float magnum" barrel channel, 2.0 lbs stock weight, 13.625" LOP with 1" Decelerator.

https://www.bellandcarlson.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1157



I had to sand the B&C Win M70 Short/WSM stock quite a bit to get a #4 Pac-Nor Sporter to fit,
2.25 lbs approx. stock weight, 13.625" LOP with 1" Decelerator.

The B&C Win M70 Long Action had a little bigger barrel channel, about a drop-in for #4 McGowen Sporter,
2.0 lbs stock weight, 13.75" LOP with 1" Decelerator.









The B&C CZ 550 Magnum stock is a drop-in fit for the factory contour, same on all, .375, .416, .458.
2.5 lbs stock weight, 14.125" LOP, aluminum endoskeleton runs from rear of grip through forend tip sling stud attachment.
I sanded one of these out to fit a McGowen barrel made to Pac-Nor #6 Sporter contour with shortened breech cylinder/knoxform:





Grip circumference on the CZ 550 Magnum palm swell is just a smidge bigger than that on the Ruger M77 and Winchester M70 models.
I like that Ruger M77 MkII/Hawkeye stock just fine.

Here is the B&C Medalist used on the Winchester M70 Extreme Weather (FN/SC) in .338 WinMag, factory rifle.



I can vouch for the aluminum alloy bedding block extending all the way to forend tip on the CZ 550 Magnum model.
I had to cut through it to sink the barrel lug on that .500 Mbogo above.

This makes me wonder if the tang-safety Ruger M77 African had same bedding system as the first model Ruger M77 Magnum MkII aka RSM Generation-One ?
I never owned one of those, tang-safety M77 Africans, I am sad to say.
MallardAddict is going to need to have a look at his bedding when he gets the rifle.
I hope he can take some photos to post here.

I am guessing it might have some similarities to this prior to a glass bedding job, Gen-1 and Gen-2 RSMs:



Gen-3 glass bedded, same would be done for Gen-2 with fatter barrel:



(Actual angle on the Ruger front action screw is not 45*, I forgot what it is, but the point is, it is not a 90* straight up angle.)

So, does the tang-safety African .458 WinMag have the standard recoil lug on the action,
or does it have one of those cantilevered recoil plates in the forearm ?

I would love to remodel a B&C M77 MkII stock to fit a tang-safety African .458 WinMag.
I will do the work on that job, as long as I get to keep the rifle. Heh-heh-heh.

The other, older Medalists I have tried and liked, not as much write-up on them at the B&C site,
the newer Ruger stock got special treatment on the torquing instructions:

I like these stocks

Sir Ron,

In response to your question, “So, does the tang-safety African .458 WinMag have the standard recoil lug on the action, or does it have one of those cantilevered recoil plates in the forearm ?” the Ruger M-77 TS 458 WM, indeed has a version of the steel forend flat bar/integral recoil lug/angled front action screw arrangement that was later used in the RSM. I have not compared measurements of the steel recoil systems in the TS and RSM. I plan to do that at some point just to know. I suspect that the RSM recoil bar/foreend lug evolved from the TS 458 WM.

Without the intact system in place the RSM will split the stock on the first shot, at least in 450 Rigby @ 2400 fps - don’t ask me how I know. Fortunately Numrich still carries 2 versions (Gens 1 & 3) of the RSM stock but not the recoil bar. My current RSM is a Gen 2 stock.

Sir Khulu,
Thanks for confirming that.
The M77 TS African bedding system went on to become the RSM Gen-1 system.

That is actually a more robust system than came on the later Gen-2 and Gen-3,
since the barrel-banded sling stud had a secondary recoil lug built into it, embedded in stock
forward of the cantilevered primary recoil lug.

I can well imagine the result of shooting an RSM-2 or RSM-3 without the recoil lug contraption in the stock.
No recoil lug at all.
One could put a Kimber Caprivi/Rem M700 type washer recoil lug on it and get rid of the contraption.
But that RSM-2/3 single lug set up was extremely accurate.
My .416 Rigby RSM-2 never cracked its stock, knock wood.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/18000168/1

My Gen-2 version .416 Rigby shot so well as it came out of the box, I never messed with it.
I just kept screws tight to no more than 65 inch-pounds,
being a weakling, that is about all I can do with a Fat Wrench screwdriver.
I only tested one powder charge with a half dozen bullets ranging from 380 grains to 410 grains,
all in one session, 3 shots with each bullet,
and settled on a load that afternoon, for my first safari in 2001.
All the bullets were accurate enough, roughly zeroed to check a 3-shot group at 115 yards.
Hey, the bulldozer driver was either drunk or confused on meters versus yards
when he made a first attempt at a 100-yard berm at the public range.
Choice load, same powder charge as John Buhmiller and Jack O'Connor liked for 400-grainers:



Corrected to MV, that would be closer to about 2530 fps, 2509 fps instrumental.

Here is the rifle that did it with a 1.5-5x20mm Leupold in Ruger rings:







About the buffalo taken with that .416 Rigby, even though the .458 WinMag would have made me happier:

One shot, broke his left shoulder and his heart and exited offside ribs,
he ran 50 yards and fell, gave the death bellow promptly in the mopane of Botswana's Okavango.
PH Ronnie McFarlane (supervising my Appy PH) gladly took my spare ammo off my hands when I left.
He had an original John Rigby & Co. .416 Rigby he was using for backup on elephant.
Hopefully it found good use for him.
While I was there, his client made a bespoke .500 NE H&H Royal fire both barrels at once, and the elephant still died.

The RSM has a weird bedding system, but it is prone to excellent accuracy.

Technical point/correction:

Stuart Ottesen, THE BOLT ACTION Volume II, page 139,
about the Ruger Model 77 (tang safety), said this:

"While the recoil lug under the receiver ring is relatively small,
optimum advantage is gained from what cross sectional surface it
does have. The patented front guard screw works on a rearward
diagonal of thirty degrees to physically draw the lug back into full
contact with the stock."

Thus also is the cantilevered recoil plate of the M77 TS .458 WinMag "African" and all the RSMs,
bearing the primary recoil lug, snugged into full contact
when that 30* rearward diagonal screw is tightened.
Angle in front of that screw is 30* from perpendicular, viewed from the side, screw tilting rearward.

I would never trade my 416 Rem M70 for a 458 Win. There is no comparison in versatility.

That's a description of my first .458 Winchester Magnum: a Ruger M77 TS. I should have kept it.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir EdM,

Would you like to elaborate on that since this is a thread on "The Great .458 Winchester Magnum...", and some of us believe a fair comparison could be attempted but that, all things considered, the .458 Win would win! I've already done such comparisons in an unbiased manner - no axe to grind - and have concluded that the .458 is the best all-around, given the choice of bullets from 250gr to 600, and at any speed possible from black powder vintage to today's best.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I want to qualify some of the above: I'm certainly not assuming that all on this thread believe as I do, but "some", and I think that would include Sir Ron. But my conclusions are not arrived at by feelings or emotions, but by facts. I'm very "hard-nose" in being objective. Some of my .458 Win loads are equivalent to BP loads: less than 2500 ft-lbs, while others are up to 6000+ ft-lbs: a 350gr TSX at 2780 fps/6005 ft-lbs as one example, etc, with dozens of loads in between.

And a lot of that has to do with the SAAMI "free bore" of the .458 Win Mag which easily makes it equivalent to or better than the .458 Lott.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

As a dyed in the wool fan of the 404s, it is difficult for me to assert that there is a better ALTERNATIVE DGR caliber. However, after working fairly extensively now with the 458 WM (both standard and +) I will give the 'devil' his due and recognize both the versatility of the 458 WM(+) and the apparently greater effect of the larger diameter bullet, exerting higher KE/power based on a balance of velocity and projectile mass.

Undoubtedly the 404s I've routinely used (404/375 Ruger, 404 Jeffery) are powerful DGR cartridges and MAY confer a bit greater range vs the 450-500 grain 0.458" bullets I use in my 45 DGRs (458 WM & +, 460 G&A, 450 Rigby Rimless), but bullet weight selection in the 45s and greater close-in power rebalance the scales.

I am happy with both the 45 and 404 DGRs. I use a couple of 416s (Rem Mag & Rigby) but not sufficiently to comment on their efficacy. It would seem that functional differences between the 416s and 404s would be more a matter of preference than actual objective reasoning. YMMV

Amen to Sir Bob and Sir Khulu.
Knave EdM is spouting juvenile comments again, just does not play well with others.

The idea that a .416 RemMag is more versatile than a .458 WinMag is just ludicrous.
As well as the smokeless loads from sub-Trapdoor to super-Lott levels as Sir Bob pointed to,
remember the BP and paper-patched loads,
shot capsule loads for snakes (single or double .45LC),
single or triple PC-painted .457" round-ball "buck shot" loads, etc.
Let alone the supreme 404-gr Shock Hammer at 2500 fps in any rifle made for SAAMI .458 WinMag.

The variety of .45-cal projectiles alone beats any .416 handily.

I like the .404 Jeffery too, have used it on bull bison.
Even have a .423/.416 Rigby wildcat I call the "404 RIP" (Rigby Improved Plus).
It is obvious.
None of them can hold a candle to the .458 Winchester Magnum which shines like the sun.

I see from a post on another forum, both shots were definitely exits.
Outstanding bullet performance, and outstanding buffalo and other animals. Great pictures!