Would you give your 5 year old leukemia? Would you choose not to cure them even when in your power to do so?
Would you let your 10 year old to be beaten daily, for years on end and not put a stop to it?
Would you allow your 13 year old to be trafficked?
Would you sit around and watch your well behaved, by all accounts wonderful 17 year old get into a vehicle knowing they would get t-boned a mile down the road and live as a vegetable or quadriplegic?
I submit that if you would you're a bit of a cu.nt
You are judging an Infinite Being and don't have a clue. If you drew some stick figures you would be closer to them in intelligence than you are to God of the Bible. They can't comprehend you, and you can't comprehend God.
Last edited by Ringman; 08/21/23.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
You are critical which is your right. Your view is yours to express. How about expanding the conversation that others have engaged in by offering your personal explanation and understanding of human suffering?
Well, shit happens. There's no free will and you are subject to the environment, genetics, the actions of others etc. Simple really. You do what you can but that's not always enough - you'd need to be a god or something to get what you want.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
The problem of pain and suffering and injustice in the world is likely one of the biggest problems for a lotta people when it comes to having and maintaining faith in God.
A lotta people have stepped back from God, not necessarily into atheism, but a lotta people have stepped back from God because of their inability to reconcile a good and loving God with the pain and suffering and injustice in the world ~ maybe more so than for any other reason.
1. You are the hand of God. 2. Eventually, anything you do or will do means nothing. All that will be left is memory of pain or love. 3. "God" as you have been told was merely marketing by others to gain sway. 4. All lessons of natural observation apply to humans to at least some extent.
The answer has been front and center the whole time.
The problem of pain and suffering and injustice in the world is likely one of the biggest problems for a lotta people when it comes to having and maintaining faith in God.
A lotta people have stepped back from God, not necessarily into atheism, but a lotta people have stepped back from God because of their inability to reconcile a good and loving God with the pain and suffering and injustice in the world ~ maybe more so than for any other reason.
Throwing a god into the equation generates unnecessary complications and detracts people from dealing with reality.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
Good observation, Mauser. 1. You are the hand of God. 2. Eventually, anything you do or will do means nothing. All that will be left is memory of pain or love. 3. "God" as you have been told was merely marketing by others to gain sway. 4. All lessons of natural observation apply to humans to at least some extent.
The answer has been front and center the whole time.
How many here have children? Did they come from you? Do you love them?
Do you understand that, despite all you do, they will develop their own personality….perhaps become a serial killer or heavy drug abuser (just examples) without any genetic anomalies or abuse? Is that your fault? No, its not.
Would you openly accept the blame of their atrocities when they’re caught for some heinous act? You would most likely feel guilty, but I doubt you’d go on record as saying “He’s like he is because I made him that way.”.
If they were a rebellious child, would you not discipline them? If they became more rebellious towards discipline, would you not discipline them harder? At some point, would you realize that they’re not going to change and space yourself from them? If they returned to you, convinced they were genuine in their begging you for your help, would you not give them another chance?
A wayward child is a realistic possibility, yet you decided to have one, hoping by his/her own free will, that they’d be a productive member of society.
God made us. He provided us our own free will. We are made in His image. As parents, its easy to see how close to God’s image we really are. Unfortunately, we were given a very important choice and chose sin in the beginning.
How much would you tolerate having your 10 year old constantly demand you explain your choices in your household? How about your 13 year old? Your 17 year old? You would probably start by putting them in their place and eventually arrive at showing them the door.
He’s no more of a tyrant than any parent. Having seen how power corrupts humans, I can only imagine any one us would be if we created everything in the universe and had our creations rebel against us or even question our motives. I think its safe to assume (based on human history) that it would get quite bloody and we’d let a fair share of bad things happen out of disgust.
Fair enough.
Would you give your 5 year old leukemia? Would you choose not to cure them even when in your power to do so?
Would you let your 10 year old to be beaten daily, for years on end and not put a stop to it?
Would you allow your 13 year old to be trafficked?
Would you sit around and watch your well behaved, by all accounts wonderful 17 year old get into a vehicle knowing they would get t-boned a mile down the road and live as a vegetable or quadriplegic?
I submit that if you would you're a bit of a cu.nt
A valid point, however, ours is the perspective of less than a toddler in relation to a father. Despite what we feel to be our entitlement to know, we can’t even begin to make sense of His actions and we often hold tantrums because if it.
Not to dismiss the gravity of the situations you mentioned (because they’re horrible), but these are temporary matters of the flesh.
James 4:14 “What do you know about tomorrow? How can you be so sure about your life? It is nothing more than mist that appears for only a little while before it disappears.”
Mortal life, while long in our times of suffering, isn’t even a line segment. Its a point on the infinite line of time. The things you mention are horrific events and can bring about understandable bitterness and hurt, however, as devastating as they are, they are still temporary matters of the flesh. Not to mention, a further example of my previous point about what we would/could do if we were God.
I understand the question of suffering, but I think we all can agree that, considering the things we do as humans, we wouldn’t show the level of restraint that we currently do. As a pissed-off and unchallenged supreme being, we’d probably conjure up things that makes the heartache of the hypothetical situations you mentioned seem like a cake walk.
Just some consideration to take.
“When debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.” - Socrates
How many here have children? Did they come from you? Do you love them?
Do you understand that, despite all you do, they will develop their own personality….perhaps become a serial killer or heavy drug abuser (just examples) without any genetic anomalies or abuse? Is that your fault? No, its not.
Would you openly accept the blame of their atrocities when they’re caught for some heinous act? You would most likely feel guilty, but I doubt you’d go on record as saying “He’s like he is because I made him that way.”.
If they were a rebellious child, would you not discipline them? If they became more rebellious towards discipline, would you not discipline them harder? At some point, would you realize that they’re not going to change and space yourself from them? If they returned to you, convinced they were genuine in their begging you for your help, would you not give them another chance?
A wayward child is a realistic possibility, yet you decided to have one, hoping by his/her own free will, that they’d be a productive member of society.
God made us. He provided us our own free will. We are made in His image. As parents, its easy to see how close to God’s image we really are. Unfortunately, we were given a very important choice and chose sin in the beginning.
How much would you tolerate having your 10 year old constantly demand you explain your choices in your household? How about your 13 year old? Your 17 year old? You would probably start by putting them in their place and eventually arrive at showing them the door.
He’s no more of a tyrant than any parent. Having seen how power corrupts humans, I can only imagine any one us would be if we created everything in the universe and had our creations rebel against us or even question our motives. I think its safe to assume (based on human history) that it would get quite bloody and we’d let a fair share of bad things happen out of disgust.
Fair enough.
Would you give your 5 year old leukemia? Would you choose not to cure them even when in your power to do so?
Would you let your 10 year old to be beaten daily, for years on end and not put a stop to it?
Would you allow your 13 year old to be trafficked?
Would you sit around and watch your well behaved, by all accounts wonderful 17 year old get into a vehicle knowing they would get t-boned a mile down the road and live as a vegetable or quadriplegic?
I submit that if you would you're a bit of a cu.nt
That only applies if you mistakenly think everything that happens is God's will or is caused by God. That is not an idea that the Bible teaches.
Imagine creating a hell knowing that a large majority of your failed creation would go there. Or creating people knowing they would fail.
Doesn't have to be like that at all. Scripture says hell was created for Satan and his angles. Maybe it's just the default if you reject God, and all that would entail. It doesn't have to be that God made this place to punish anyone he doesn't like for all eternity.
As to creating people knowing they would fail, I liken that to having children. You know they will fail and cause you all kinds of problems, but you do it anyway for the good.
If you believe in the Bible, it the bible that tells you that God knows the end from the beginning, and consequently everything that happen in between.
Therefore, being omniscient and omnipotent, everything that transpires from start to finish is known, planned and approved by the Creator.
Scripture says God declares the end from the beginning. That does not mean he controls or approves it.
Come off it. We are told that God ordered murder, killed the innocent first born of Egypt over the actions of the Pharoah, who's heart He had hardened, a set up to play out a game that was set up.....tortured Job over a friendly wager with satan in a game where He knew the outcome (omniscience), we are told in the Bible that God creates evil and the evildoer, for His own purposes, etc, etc. All the relevant verses have been quoted many times, so acting like this is the first time this has been raised is disingenuous.
I've explained those passages many times. By KJV translation it would be easy to see God as a blood thirsty tyrant. I think it's mostly because the translators viewed kings as such. You could just as easily find bible verses to prove the opposite of your own view of God as a tyrant. What is disingenuous, is to pick and choose verses to justify your own feelings.
Regardless of all that. The bible clearly does not teach that everything happens because it's the will of God.
You haven't explained a thing. You are bluffing.
Your so called explanations do absolutely nothing to resolve the issue of a God who deliberately creates evil, murders the innocent, condones rape and slavery, requires blood sacrifice, death as a condition of atonement, etc, etc.
The relevant verses been quoted and backed numerous times, but have yet to be resolved.
Despite your protests to the contrary, the issue has not been resolved.
It has not been resolved because it cannot be resolved.
The bible, especially the OT, simply describes a cruel and vindictive God who revels in bloodshed.
'The Lord is a man of war'' Exodus 15:3.
"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13
''you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded...'' Deuteronomy 20:17
''Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers.'' Isaiah 14:21
''So now, kill all the boys, as well as every woman who has had relations with a man, but spare for yourselves every girl who has never had relations with a man.'' - Numbers 31:18
A God of Love? Hardly. Divine Justice? No, pure evil.
Imagine creating a hell knowing that a large majority of your failed creation would go there. Or creating people knowing they would fail.
Doesn't have to be like that at all. Scripture says hell was created for Satan and his angles. Maybe it's just the default if you reject God, and all that would entail. It doesn't have to be that God made this place to punish anyone he doesn't like for all eternity.
As to creating people knowing they would fail, I liken that to having children. You know they will fail and cause you all kinds of problems, but you do it anyway for the good.
If you believe in the Bible, it the bible that tells you that God knows the end from the beginning, and consequently everything that happen in between.
Therefore, being omniscient and omnipotent, everything that transpires from start to finish is known, planned and approved by the Creator.
Scripture says God declares the end from the beginning. That does not mean he controls or approves it.
Come off it. We are told that God ordered murder, killed the innocent first born of Egypt over the actions of the Pharoah, who's heart He had hardened, a set up to play out a game that was set up.....tortured Job over a friendly wager with satan in a game where He knew the outcome (omniscience), we are told in the Bible that God creates evil and the evildoer, for His own purposes, etc, etc. All the relevant verses have been quoted many times, so acting like this is the first time this has been raised is disingenuous.
I've explained those passages many times. By KJV translation it would be easy to see God as a blood thirsty tyrant. I think it's mostly because the translators viewed kings as such. You could just as easily find bible verses to prove the opposite of your own view of God as a tyrant. What is disingenuous, is to pick and choose verses to justify your own feelings.
Regardless of all that. The bible clearly does not teach that everything happens because it's the will of God.
You haven't explained a thing. You are bluffing.
Your so called explanations do absolutely nothing to resolve the issue of a God who deliberately creates evil, murders the innocent, condones rape and slavery, requires blood sacrifice, death as a condition of atonement, etc, etc.
The relevant verses been quoted and backed numerous times, but have yet to be resolved.
Despite your protests to the contrary, the issue has not been resolved.
It has not been resolved because it cannot be resolved.
The bible, especially the OT, simply describes a cruel and vindictive God who revels in bloodshed.
'The Lord is a man of war'' Exodus 15:3.
"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13
''you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded...'' Deuteronomy 20:17
''Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers.'' Isaiah 14:21
''So now, kill all the boys, as well as every woman who has had relations with a man, but spare for yourselves every girl who has never had relations with a man.'' - Numbers 31:18
A God of Love? Hardly. Divine Justice? No, pure evil.
Did you and your Boi Mauser get cornholed by a priest when you were little? Lol
