…in the world influence the way you see God…? Why or why not…?

Pain and suffering are consequences of sin. Pain and suffering will end when Christ comes and establishes his earthly millennial kingdom, but even then with utopian life on this earth when Satan is released from the pit, he will lead nations into rebellion against Christ. This shows that fallen and unregenerate human heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. After the last rebellion this present universe will be destroyed and in the Book of Revelation we see new heaven and new earth where righteousness will dwell. All unrepentant will be cast into the lake of fire along with Satan and his host, only then will there be eternal peace and rest without sufferings, pain, sin and death for ever and ever.

People blame God for pain, suffering and injustice, but if they would be honest they will see themselves as the ones causing all this. Generally speaking God simply allows us to do as we please to a point, as Sovereign He reserves the right to interfere in our affairs and often does in order to accomplish His will. Pain suffering and injustice is not caused by God but by fallen human heart influenced by father of lies Satan.

Yes

Would this be the same loving God that keeps the pediatric wards full of suffering babies and kids?

The good thing is that that those suffering kids have angels who behold the face of God and God lovingly takes them into His presence when their time comes. In his presence is fulness of joy. In the garden of Eden there was no pain and suffering, after the fall pain, suffering and death entered into the world and has been here every since, but loving God provided salvation through Christ. Ultimately pain and suffering will end but not for rejecters of Christ and mockers of God, their pain and sufferings will continue for eternity in the lake of fire.

It shows his incredible patience. If it was me, I'd have crushed all this sin a long time ago but he's giving everyone more and more chances to repent. Millenia ago, he told Abraham that the sin of the Canaanites was not yet full so he didn't crush them then. He gave them another full 500 years to clean up their act. They didn't and he sent in the Israelites to settle with them. Then those same Israelites became totally sinful themselves. God gave them chance after chance for 1000 years before he sent in the Babylonians to deal with them. 500 or 1000 years is nothing to him. It's hard to say how long he'll let this world go on like it is but the signs are that he might be reaching the end of his patience.

No , It felt like I reached an important point in both my spiritual and mental maturation when I realized all the PSI in my life were dealt to me by my own hand.
By our faith and Gods grace we are healed and made whole.

This doesnt explain away the sickness and suffering of those that seem innocent , misery is something I dont hold The Creator responsible for. YMMV for all the good it does you.

Yes! He is the One Who told Eve, "I will greatly increase your pain in childbirth." Folks seem to forget He is infinite. Therefore, He reacted in an infinite manner and cursed the whole universe when His crowning glory of creation sinned.

God says in His Word, "If a calamity occurs in a city, I did it." He will not spare those who reject His Gift of His Son. They will be tormented eternally.

Antlers, My friend, I thought I’d try to spit out a quick reply before heading off to church. As someone who saw my fair share of pain, suffering and injustice and knowing that you currently see MUCH MORE than your fair share of pain, suffering and injustice I don’t think there’s anyway around it….in some of the worst scenes I’ve watched God’s miracles happen and I’ve felt the calmness of his presence. I’ve never not known the Lord but I know that there have been times when I felt weak and He gave me strength. There were times I was scared but would never let on that I was scared and He gave me courage. Times on the job and in life when I doubted myself and He gave me wisdom. Everything in my life I owe to Him! There’s no way a dumbass like me got the wife, family and life that I have without significant divine intervention. I’ve felt the Lord and I’ve watched his amazing work when everything was the darkest and chaos reigned, when sickness, pain and injustice are present I turn it all over to Him because I know how totally incapable I am in comparison to His Greatness…it’s in those hours that I’m in awe of his power and Grace. I’m sure Antlers, that you have a sneaking suspicion of what I’m talking about. I didn’t know many trauma docs, trauma nurses and paramedics back in the day that weren’t strong believers.

All my best to you antlers!

Yes it is. And He is also the same loving God that is long-suffering and giving YOU an opportunity to repent of your sin and accept the gift of salvation he offers through faith in his Son, Jesus Christ. God is not willing that any should die and go to hell. You choose that for yourself -by rejecting a GIFT! It’s a GIFT- you can’t buy it, earn it, work for it, steal it, etc. you simply have to take what is offered freely.

Ditto.

Wouldn't be anyone left!


The OPs question is The Big Question?
One everyone asks at some point, whether the subject in mind is another, on oneself.

No

no.
the world is fallen, just like man. disease and faulty genes and killer weather and killer dogs and killer people cause death and destruction. Yeshua Messiah DOES NOT promise that believers escape these things in this world. He promises persecution, suffering, the Holy Spirit to get u through the persecution and suffering, and eternity with Him when we leave this world.
now, when He comes back, the world will be a different place, indeed ...

Must be a huge relief to them while they lay up in a pediatric burn ward, go through chemo, etc. Big guys got you!

As someone said above, human pain and suffering exist because sin exists. Suffering is part of the curse of sin in the world, Genesis 3:16-19. We are weak humans in a fallen, sinful and lost world.

Jesus said we will have suffering in this world, John 16:33, but we have an anchor in Jesus who comforts us in all trials and sufferings, 2 Corinthians 1:4.

God is good, 1 John 1:5, and is not the author of evil, James 1:13-17. God made redemption possible through the sacrifice of Jesus, and God knows the fullness of suffering in ways we don’t and can’t even fathom. Jesus’ death on the cross defeated sin and death for believers.

Blaming God for something makes us God’s judge and jury. We are His creation; He is not ours. God is sovereign, in control, and He has a plan—His plan, which might be contrary to our agendas. No human suffering is without a purpose in the plan of God. We don’t understand lots of things on this earth, but we’re not supposed to, as we are not God.

No.

God gives everyone free will. If serving God meant that we would experience less pain and suffering on earth for ourselves or our children we wouldn’t have free choice. We’d have coercion.

“The rain falls on the just and the unjust.” Mathew 5:45

The Bible outlines lifestyle choices that generally lead to happiness, prosperity, and good health rather a believer or not but there are no guarantees.

I guess all those African children that got nailed to those trees were really lucky then.

Imagine creating a hell knowing that a large majority of your failed creation would go there. Or creating people knowing they would fail.

Doesn't have to be like that at all. Scripture says hell was created for Satan and his angles. Maybe it's just the default if you reject God, and all that would entail. It doesn't have to be that God made this place to punish anyone he doesn't like for all eternity.

As to creating people knowing they would fail, I liken that to having children. You know they will fail and cause you all kinds of problems, but you do it anyway for the good.

^ same. If there is a God he shoulda wiped out this planet and started over. Maybe just do animals with no humans this time.

Right or wrong, he might make some think or re-think.

Is it easier to regard pain and suffering and injustice in the world as an argument against the existence of God ~ or as a reminder of our need for God…?

If you believe in the Bible, it the bible that tells you that God knows the end from the beginning, and consequently everything that happen in between.

Therefore, being omniscient and omnipotent, everything that transpires from start to finish is known, planned and approved by the Creator.

She's whinging up a storm.
Lol

Lots of credulous minded trained parrot preaching
from you - but do you have any actual evidence for
such a mythical tale paradise ethereal destination?

I've heard such tall tale nonsense from simpleton
dolt catholics for yrs...They even have a prayer for
every ailment you can think of, except their snake-oil
gibberish never works.

You want infants and toddlers in pediatric wards
to repent?

Why doesn't your Jesus just heal them of their
ailments?..or is Jesus too busy with something
else?..Send some prayers and see if can get him
to show some love.

That's right, ignore the issue and whine about the poster. Just the usual tactics of avoidance and denial.

You avoid and deny what is written in the bible because the hard truth does not suit your own beliefs.

Good?..LoL..Mankind was your g0d's regretful mistake.

Genesis 6:6
"So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth,
and He was grieved in His heart".

Scripture says God declares the end from the beginning. That does not mean he controls or approves it.

certainly describes my first mother in law....

she believed the more you suffered on earth, the greater your rewards will be in heaven..
so she went out of her way to " suffer " every day of her life...

Come off it. We are told that God ordered murder, killed the innocent first born of Egypt over the actions of the Pharoah, who's heart He had hardened, a set up to play out a game that was set up.....tortured Job over a friendly wager with satan in a game where He knew the outcome (omniscience), we are told in the Bible that God creates evil and the evildoer, for His own purposes, etc, etc. All the relevant verses have been quoted many times, so acting like this is the first time this has been raised is disingenuous.

Me neither. I see His work in creation and I hear His voice in the Bible. Circumstances, feelings or what I see in world or in others has no effect on how I see or hear Him.

I've explained those passages many times. By KJV translation it would be easy to see God as a blood thirsty tyrant. I think it's mostly because the translators viewed kings as such. You could just as easily find bible verses to prove the opposite of your own view of God as a tyrant. What is disingenuous, is to pick and choose verses to justify your own feelings.

Regardless of all that. The bible clearly does not teach that everything happens because it's the will of God.

How many here have children? Did they come from you? Do you love them?

Do you understand that, despite all you do, they will develop their own personality….perhaps become a serial killer or heavy drug abuser (just examples) without any genetic anomalies or abuse? Is that your fault? No, its not.

Would you openly accept the blame of their atrocities when they’re caught for some heinous act? You would most likely feel guilty, but I doubt you’d go on record as saying “He’s like he is because I made him that way.”.

If they were a rebellious child, would you not discipline them? If they became more rebellious towards discipline, would you not discipline them harder? At some point, would you realize that they’re not going to change and space yourself from them? If they returned to you, convinced they were genuine in their begging you for your help, would you not give them another chance?

A wayward child is a realistic possibility, yet you decided to have one, hoping by his/her own free will, that they’d be a productive member of society.

God made us. He provided us our own free will. We are made in His image. As parents, its easy to see how close to God’s image we really are. Unfortunately, we were given a very important choice and chose sin in the beginning.

How much would you tolerate having your 10 year old constantly demand you explain your choices in your household? How about your 13 year old? Your 17 year old? You would probably start by putting them in their place and eventually arrive at showing them the door.

He’s no more of a tyrant than any parent. Having seen how power corrupts humans, I can only imagine any one us would be if we created everything in the universe and had our creations rebel against us or even question our motives. I think its safe to assume (based on human history) that it would get quite bloody and we’d let a fair share of bad things happen out of disgust.

Difference is that I won't and wouldn't condemn the rest of my children's bloodline for the actions of my kid(s).

No. Pain, suffering and injustice are results of the fall.

There is scripture that says the sins of the fathers will be visited upon several generations. I don't see that as meaning God is going to be pissed at them for that long, or condemn them that long or whatever. When you start studying languages you see how subjective to the translator's views any translation becomes.

Those verses could simply speak to the tendency of several generations of a family to have the same issues. How much more likely would anyone be to become a drug addict or alcoholic if their parents were? Is that God cursing them? Maybe in one way of looking at it but maybe not, and free will would still apply.

An understandable perspective and compassionate point of view, however, consider this: You made the rules and your child made that choice. Not you.

Fair enough.


Would you give your 5 year old leukemia? Would you choose not to cure them even when in your power to do so?

Would you let your 10 year old to be beaten daily, for years on end and not put a stop to it?

Would you allow your 13 year old to be trafficked?

Would you sit around and watch your well behaved, by all accounts wonderful 17 year old get into a vehicle knowing they would get t-boned a mile down the road and live as a vegetable or quadriplegic?



I submit that if you would you're a bit of a cu.nt

You are judging an Infinite Being and don't have a clue. If you drew some stick figures you would be closer to them in intelligence than you are to God of the Bible. They can't comprehend you, and you can't comprehend God.

Sure thing Dementia Dan

Bullschidt!

For those who don’t believe in God how do you comprehend, accept or explain the issue of suffering in the world?

God works in strange, and mysterious ways.

Religion has certainly created a lot of it unnecessarily.

Maybe you could tell us from where it comes. I read one doctor who can't understand it. He says the cells appear to be designed to live forever.

Do you mean like this??



L.W.

I don't see a god at all. Why? Because I don't suffer from that delusion, and never have.

Not answers to the question that I asked.

You are critical which is your right. Your view is yours to express. How about expanding the conversation that others have engaged in by offering your personal explanation and understanding of human suffering?

Well, shit happens. There's no free will and you are subject to the environment, genetics, the actions of others etc. Simple really. You do what you can but that's not always enough - you'd need to be a god or something to get what you want.

Sure, just like He didn't exist... where events just unfold according to natural cause and effect in a deterministic world.

The problem of pain and suffering and injustice in the world is likely one of the biggest problems for a lotta people when it comes to having and maintaining faith in God.

A lotta people have stepped back from God, not necessarily into atheism, but a lotta people have stepped back from God because of their inability to reconcile a good and loving God with the pain and suffering and injustice in the world ~ maybe more so than for any other reason.

1. You are the hand of God.
2. Eventually, anything you do or will do means nothing. All that will be left is memory of pain or love.
3. "God" as you have been told was merely marketing by others to gain sway.
4. All lessons of natural observation apply to humans to at least some extent.

The answer has been front and center the whole time.

Throwing a god into the equation generates unnecessary complications and detracts people from dealing with reality.

Good observation, Mauser.
1. You are the hand of God.
2. Eventually, anything you do or will do means nothing. All that will be left is memory of pain or love.
3. "God" as you have been told was merely marketing by others to gain sway.
4. All lessons of natural observation apply to humans to at least some extent.

The answer has been front and center the whole time.

A valid point, however, ours is the perspective of less than a toddler in relation to a father. Despite what we feel to be our entitlement to know, we can’t even begin to make sense of His actions and we often hold tantrums because if it.

Not to dismiss the gravity of the situations you mentioned (because they’re horrible), but these are temporary matters of the flesh.

James 4:14 “What do you know about tomorrow? How can you be so sure about your life? It is nothing more than mist that appears for only a little while before it disappears.”

Mortal life, while long in our times of suffering, isn’t even a line segment. Its a point on the infinite line of time. The things you mention are horrific events and can bring about understandable bitterness and hurt, however, as devastating as they are, they are still temporary matters of the flesh. Not to mention, a further example of my previous point about what we would/could do if we were God.

I understand the question of suffering, but I think we all can agree that, considering the things we do as humans, we wouldn’t show the level of restraint that we currently do. As a pissed-off and unchallenged supreme being, we’d probably conjure up things that makes the heartache of the hypothetical situations you mentioned seem like a cake walk.

Just some consideration to take.

That only applies if you mistakenly think everything that happens is God's will or is caused by God. That is not an idea that the Bible teaches.

You haven't explained a thing. You are bluffing.

Your so called explanations do absolutely nothing to resolve the issue of a God who deliberately creates evil, murders the innocent, condones rape and slavery, requires blood sacrifice, death as a condition of atonement, etc, etc.

The relevant verses been quoted and backed numerous times, but have yet to be resolved.

Despite your protests to the contrary, the issue has not been resolved.

It has not been resolved because it cannot be resolved.

The bible, especially the OT, simply describes a cruel and vindictive God who revels in bloodshed.


'The Lord is a man of war'' Exodus 15:3.

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13

''you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded...'' Deuteronomy 20:17

''Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers.'' Isaiah 14:21

''So now, kill all the boys, as well as every woman who has had relations with a man, but spare for yourselves every girl who has never had relations with a man.'' - Numbers 31:18

A God of Love? Hardly. Divine Justice? No, pure evil.

Did you and your Boi Mauser get cornholed by a priest when you were little?
Lol

''The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.'' - Psalm 145:9

Contradicts;

''Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" - (Amos 3:6, KJV)


"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". - Isaiah 42:13

This version of God is far from being 'good to all,' with no evidence of 'tender mercies all over His works.'

What too many have forgotten, or never understood to begin with, is God's promise is of everlasting life and peace in Heaven, not here on earth.

This is the issue with translations. One must take in overall message rather than picking specific verses to build a belief on.

But sometimes in the midst of extraordinary pain and suffering and injustice, we often find extraordinary faith in God instead of extraordinary doubt.

Some people leverage pain and suffering and injustice in the world to argue against God; some people leverage pain and suffering and injustice in the world to argue against their personal relationship with God.

Should we maybe proceed with caution when commandeering other people’s pain and suffering and injustice to build our case against God…?

Blessed is the soul who can navigate pain, suffering, and injustice here on earth with peace in their heart and faith in God. That is the whole thing in a nutshell. We are not promised physical peace here on earth, but faith in God and His promises of the after life will put our heart and mind at peace no matter what physically happens to us here.

More so, He glorifies himself by carrying us through such experiences as the human race has a history of forgetting Him and glorifying ourselves when everything goes well for a given time.

Thanks for the edifying words of encouragement. They are what I need. By the way, welcome to the 'fire.

To make your time here more pleasant, you might use the "ignore" function.

Seen enough to feel a WTF moment and why do you let dumb schit go on like this Mr. Big guy in the sky.

Seen enough to think it is his wrath on fuuked up people also.

Is what it is.
God can do pretty much what he wants when he wants.

Ain't no one been able to ask him why, get the answer and come back and tell us still using 02 types.

No problem. Hope all is well, or will be.

Thank you for the welcome here.

I saw one of those meme things somewhere, that very succinctly addresses that.

Oh, wait, here it is.

If you really want to be mind blown, research the gnostic texts. At least what's left that the Catholics didn't destroy.

Is there is rational argument against the existence of a good and loving God…the God presented to us by Jesus in the New Testament…based on pain and suffering and injustice in the world…?

I understand that it’s an emotional argument, and when many of us hear people make it, especially based on their own personal pain and suffering and injustice, many of us get it. Many of us understand it. How could a good God allow that…? How could a loving God allow that…? How could a just God allow that…? Many of us totally get that. I think that many of us have enough compassion and empathy to be able to insert into someone else’s question and their hurt. But past the emotion and past the incident, is there a rational argument to be made against the existence of a good and loving God…the God presented to us by Jesus in the New Testament…?

Has Christianity ever made the argument for the existence of a good and loving God…the God presented to us by Jesus in the New Testament…based on a world where bad things never happen to good people…? Has Christianity ever made that argument…? Has Christianity ever taught that position…? Specifically, does the New Testament make that argument, or teach that position…?

Does the whole idea of throwing up all of the pain and suffering and injustice in the world in God’s face to somehow say that a good and loving God…the God presented to us by Jesus in the New Testament…doesn’t exist, even hold water…?

It’s clearly emotional. It’s clearly powerful. It’s clearly moving. But is it rational…based upon the teachings of Jesus and others in the New Testament…?

That dude in the frock is a total dick.

I saw him also in one of those meme things somewhere.

Oh wait, here it is.

Well the bible depicts god as an asshole, so pain and suffering shouldn't be a surprise.

Wrong, that's not how it works.

I can see how pain and suffering and injustice in the world calls into question the goodness and the love and the justice of God, but not the existence of God. This is a really big deal. There clearly is pain and suffering and injustice in the world, and Christians claim to worship a good and loving and right God…the God presented to us by Jesus in the New Testament…who’s all about right things and goodness and love. But the fact is that there is pain and suffering and injustice in the world, so I can see how it calls into question the justice and the love and the goodness of God, but not the existence of God.

To me, it makes more sense to be angry than atheist. It makes more sense to be angry with God. “God, if you’re love and good and just, then why the pain and suffering and injustice…?” It makes sense to be angry with God. But it doesn’t make any sense to me to be atheist based on pain and suffering and injustice in the world. There is a difference between arguing for God’s existence and examining your personal experience regarding God. The existence of God is different than your personal experience regarding God.

I have been a little sore about it since those kids drown in basement of that school in Norman Oklahoma.


That was unnecessary.

I feel ya’ Mr. Conrad. I was working in the ER at the Healthplex in Norman that very day. I stood out front and saw that tornado smash the town of Moore which was a little over 6 miles north of where I was. Our sister hospital in Moore was demolished in that storm. Plaza Towers Elementary School (where those 7 children drowned) was less than a mile WSW of there. The school and the hospital both took a direct hit from that EF5 tornado, which stayed on the ground for 39 minutes over a 17-mile path, crossing through a heavily populated section of Moore.

https://pursuingthetruth.org/stop-blaming-god-its-not-his-fault/

That's how the story goes.

That's fine, you can believe whatever you want. I'm not a good enough Christian to care much. Jesus wants me to care about you, and all the other [bleep] heathens, but I don't. I can't consider your immense ignorance as my cross to bear. That's something I'll have to work out with Him at some point I suppose.

According to God's Word, that is exactly how it works.

Ok, so I don't miss an important part of the ignorant bliss, I'm not seeing words in the second part of his post on my screen, so if you would tell me what it says.

In Jesus’ day…and by modern standards…there was no dignity, there was no fairness, and there was no justice. But there was a lotta pain and suffering and injustice. And into that world stepped Jesus who claimed that every single person had dignity and that God loved every single person in the world (not just the Jews).

Jesus’ first century followers paid dearly for their faith, and they were treated incredibly unjustly with pain and suffering. They were persecuted for essentially believing something. And Jesus’ first century followers embraced a God that was good and loving and just ~ in a culture that was characterized by pain and suffering and injustice.

If the Christian God had been so fragile as to be able to be argued out of existence based on pain and suffering and injustice, the Christian God would’ve never made it out of the first century because for the first 100, 200, almost 300 years, the followers of the Christian God were persecuted. So Christianity is not so fragile as many think, and as many claim.

The fact that 2,000 years later there are Christians all around the world speaks to the strength of the theology that surrounds what the God that Jesus presented to the world is like.

At a time when the apostle John and his friends were being treated unjustly with pain and suffering…after spending between 3 and 3.5 years with Jesus…he asserted that “God is love.” This concept was introduced in the world at a time of extraordinary pain and suffering and injustice.

^^^excellent as always!

I’m sending this on my friend because you are quite eloquent and spot on accurate!

Allah may already have a spot set aside for you in hell.

Speaks more to the strength of the imposition of the faith by torture, cruelty and death. Yeah, seems to line up with the immorality of the god behind the belief.

How is the answer that pain and suffering prove that there is no God a better answer?

This question isn’t meant to be rhetorical. I’ve been thinking about this in relation to the responses in the thread and that answer seems to leave us in a pretty dark place.

If there is no God, the pain and suffering that is used to argue against a loving God becomes a nameless faceless evil that in and of itself is consumptive, fearful, arbitrary, malicious, unchecked, irresistible, etc. To me that appears to be a hopeless fatalism.

If what you feel and believe in relation to pain and suffering is so strong as to deny the existence of God, how do you deal with or explain the very real existence of that pain, suffering and evil ?

Pain and suffering are just the result of the natural world, some things you can do something about, some things you can't. There is no apparent intent behind it and evil is just a label we use. Evil is not a physical entity. We've histoically ascribed intent to things that we don't understand. Actions can be judged as evil where intent is deliberate, but it's not a separate entity or quality. Pain and suffering are just a part of existence, whether deliberate or not. Making up stories just avoids what may be true.

A lion causing pain and suffering to a Christian in the wild is not evil, just survival. A Roman throwing the Christian into the hungry lion den could be considered an evil action YMMV.

It makes sense when a loving god is removed from the equation, or even a god that doesn't care, or no longer exists.

Being born is a pretty good guarantee that there will be some pain, suffering and death.

Dead pedophiles don't scare me.

Her you go.

The bottom image is cut off, I'm not seeing what's in the text ballon. But nevermind. I don't care enough to worry about it.

If anyone had a reason to stop believing in God because of pain and suffering and injustice, it was Jesus. Because the man who taught us that all people have inherent value and that all people are loved by God, was Himself treated with pain and suffering and injustice…and then executed…by those that He taught these things to. Think about that.

Pain and suffering and injustice are not rational arguments against the existence of God ~ certainly not the God that was presented to us by Jesus and other’s in the New Testament.

There can’t be much worse of a topic than religion to bring up for argument. The same handful of people go after each other with no regard for opinion or truth.

Bringing up the subject is as bad as the lame excuses that deny God.

Why don’t you just leave the dumb subject ideas to Wabigoon and think of something to discuss that isn’t so divisive?

Satan has a pretty tight grip on you bud.

If you understand what Jesus taught then you understand that earth is not Heaven, there is no pain and suffering in Heaven, only here on earth. If you understand what Jesus taught then you understand that God's love is conditional, and the conditions are non negotiable.

You have to make the conscious choice to accept God, to have Faith in God, to love God more than yourself, and to do your level best to stop committing sins that you have control over.....in order to receive it.

There are rules, and those are God's.

Jesus taught that ALL people absolutely have that opportunity to recieve God's love in Heaven. Some choose to ignore that opportunity and carry on with their predestined condemnation. Satan loves you for that.

The scripture says God so loved the world that he sent his Son. It doesn't say God so loved all who would accept him and do their level best.

God's love is not based on how well you do your level best. God's love is not conditional. He will love you whether you accept his sacrifice on your behalf or not.

The thing you don't yet understand is that you cannot accept his sacrifice as long as you think his love is based on your level best. You have to give up relying on yourself to rely completely on him.

Sent his Son to die for your sins, context.

Show me where in the scripture you can keep committing sins that you have control over and be accepted into Heaven. Your very existence makes you a sinner, that is unavoidable, but you have to at least try not to sin. God expects that from you.

God will love you unconditionally (which is the whole hang up here on this thread) even if you are the worst sinner ever, but you will not be accepted into His Kingdom unless you meet His conditions, and yes, one of those is to give over your life to Him and rely completely and Faithfully on Him.

One man's pain... is another man's gain.

One man's suffering... is another man's promotion.

One man's injustice... is another man's justice.

John 5:14

John 8:11

A saved person is no longer a sinner, even when they sin, as we all do. A saved person is saved not by their struggle against sin, but by Jesus's sacrifice to pay for that sin.

If you are accepted by God, it will not be because you did well enough to meet his conditions. His conditions have all been met in Jesus. Your faith needs to be in the sacrifice of Jesus having done everything necessary for salvation for you.

Instead, you want to place your faith in your own ability to resist sin. As long as you think you have to do good enough, your faith is in you.

Saved people will hate sin and want to be free of it. Saved people will do good works. Neither will help them get to Heaven and may prevent them from it if they are seeking their reward by those efforts.

A man can revere God and accept all (good and bad) that occurs...

Or a man can reject God and claim that he alone is responsible for all (good and bad) that occurs...

Each man must walk his own walk... and make his own decisions.

I abhor any man that would instruct/demand otherwise.

Saved people are tempted just like anyone else. That's Satan trying to reclaim what is his. The key is to not fall. Pretty sure we are saying the same thing, differently.

Here's a copy paste about falling.

God may still love them, but the fallen are separated from God.


"Throughout the Bible, many things are described as being fallen or having fallen. There are angels who have fallen and become demons (Isaiah 14:12; Revelation 12:4); the nation of Israel is called "fallen" (Amos 5:2). Even the glory that mankind aspires to gain is here today and gone tomorrow—it is bound to fall (1 Peter 1:24). King Saul fell from God's favor as a result of his sin (1 Samuel 15:10–11). All of these examples point to people or beings that fall into sin and subsequently fall in the path of God's just displeasure and wrath. Fallen people suffer the consequences of their own sinfulness; they are separated from God (Isaiah 59:2; Romans 6:23)."

Yes, saved people are tempted and they sin. They do not fall and lose their salvation when they sin only to regain it when they repent or get saved again if that's even possible. That does not mean saved people can sin all they want and get away with it. The very definition of being saved is that they are changed and do not want to sin again. We will continue to sin and continue to struggle against it, but salvation is not dependent on that struggle.

You stated "The key is to not fall." I'm sorry but that is so wrong. If you hold that belief, you are relying on your ability, not on God's. The key is "Have faith in God."

Give it all to God. All your sin, past, present, and future has been paid for. Trust in the sacrifice Jesus made and NOTHING else. It's that trust and faith that causes you to sin less and desire to be pleasing to God, but he is pleased by your faith that he did everything necessary for your salvation, not in your struggle to be worthy of it.

And that's it in a nutshell. No more complicated than that. Choose God and everlasting peace, or not choose God and continue with your condemnation. It's completely up to you.

What is mind numbing is that so many let their entire self-preservation be consumed by their blip in time here on this [bleep] planet, and completely ignore where they'll spend eternity.

I submit that most of the problems with this earth are created by those people with messed up priorities like that. Satan loves them too.

"Romans 6:12-14

“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

That is God expecting you to make the effort. You have the responsibility to meet his expectations.

You are looking at it wrong. Do you think God expects you to walk sinless? If that was the case, why make the sacrifice of Jesus? Why not just tell everyone to stop sinning because I expect you to, because I created you. God never expected anyone to live without sin. If he thought anyone could live without sin, there would have been no need for the sacrifice of Jesus. God concluded all under sin so that all could be forgiven by faith in him. You must understand that if anyone could have been made good enough for heaven (righteous) by their actions, there would have been no sacrifice needed. They would be righteous by the law.

The scripture you quoted is excellent advice. It should stand in your mind and heart as a buffer against sin, and God wants you to make the effort, but not because he expects you to succeed. He wants you to make the effort because you will be a better human being because of it. He wants you to only trust his effort and his grace though when you fail. If you trust in his redemption every time, you will rise up again and try again without the judgement of previous failures or even future ones.

RHClark,

Lots of satan's work in this thread and you skip right over that and zero in on me, for what, not being the perfect biblical scholar you present yourself to be?

Piss off.

I'm not presenting myself to be anything. I didn't think I needed to correct Satan's work in this thread, so I wasn't looking for the best or worst offenders. I simply read a few posts on the end and tried to correct something I felt needed correction.

I will give you one other piece of advice. Don't think too highly of yourself, and you won't be as easily angered. Pride is a dangerous vice. I wouldn't warn you now except that the attitude that you can earn God's love, acceptance, or salvation through your own actions is also one born of pride.

All of us are a long way from being sinless. I put myself at the top of that list. I am as prideful and arrogant as anyone. I am only picking on you to hopefully make the Gospel clearer to everyone. The Good News of the Gospel is that God forgives us because Jesus paid our way without any requirement on our part except to believe it. We take that knowledge and humbly try to be good sons.

Blaise Pascal said, “People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.” How does this apply…to y’all’s belief in or rejection of…the existence of God?

Cherry pick your battles much?

Figured I'd cut you off before the pulpit pounding got too loud.

Look, friend, I don't need a complicated understanding because it's not a complicated thing to understand.

Around here we just try to live right. Folks keep a good bit of humility about 'em, though I've been known to speak my mind from time to time. Probably that Highland Scott herritage peaking out.

We don't do harm to others. We take care of our family and friends, and when things go really sideways we do the best we can to help out those we don't know. We do our best as lowly sinners to do as God commands us to do.

We know God provides what we need to get through this life and not everything we want. We look past our troubles and pains and thank God for everything we are blessed with no matter how much or how little that is.

We hope when our day comes God will let us in, despite not deserving His Grace or what Jesus did suffering and dying for our sins.

Don't flatter yourself by thinking you make me angry. It takes a lot more than you could ever pony up Hoss. But I will say that the all knowing arrogance of people like you is the reason so many are turned off by "religion". Now pat yourself on the back, you're the first one I put on ignore here. Congrats.
.

You simply said some things that needed correcting and then got pissed when I corrected you. I do apologize if I sounded arrogant doing it. That was not my intention. The idea of earning your salvation by living right has to be corrected. Otherwise I would not have singled you out. If that upsets you enough to place me on ignore, then I don't think you will have many conversations here.

Dude, Jesus told the adultress who was condemned to die per the law that he did not condemn her and to go, sin no more, Jesus' own words written in scripture. Translation: get your [bleep] straight girl and start living right. You're confusing "works" with folks trying to live as God wants them to. There's a difference. Your arrogance shines. G'bye.

You got mad at my correction to your post, told me to piss off, started only speaking hostile, told me I was the only one bad enough for you to ignore, yet I'm the arrogant one. If that's your attitude I would rather not hear from you again anyway.

If you’ve walked away from Christianity, and you assume for the moment that God does exist ~ the God that was presented to us by Jesus and other’s in the New Testament ~ what is your reaction to that notion, and how does it make you feel…guilty, accountable, wrong, or something else…?

And if the existence of the God that was presented to us by Jesus and other’s in the New Testament brings forgiveness, relationship, and truth, are those things attractive or not…?

I can understand walking away from religion but I can’t wrap my head around walking away from God.

The two are often mutually exclusive.

I concur buddy.

I think we can wrestle with honest questions and still embrace a genuine faith in God. God understands our pain. I think He welcomes our honest questions too, and I am convinced that God would rather have us yell at Him than walk away from Him. When we hit the crisis of belief, we shouldn’t deny our doubts. But I don’t think we should run from God either. We can let our doubts drive us to continue to embrace a genuine faith in God, even when we wrestle with God.

Nope. I see no empirical evidence of a higher power. If there is one, it's uncaring, aloof, and unresponsive. It is I DGAF. If a God set it up, it's a rolling stone down the chute. Chit happens. Whatever...

We are basically fugged to our heritage and environs. Period. Muslims, Christians, heathens, Hindus, tribesman, etc. You get one shot in life . Here and now, under the circumstances you are born. Make the most of it. Be decent.

The "one God" concept was invented about 3K years ago, by the Hebrews after a 75K evolution of mankind. Ain't saying they were wrong, but it WAS an invention or REVELATION - take your pick. By the way, it reads "Thou shalt not have no other god above me". Mind the "no other"..

I/we got lucky, and I am very appreciative to me, my time, and place.

Keeping in mind that many of my past opinions over 76 years have proven at least partially erroneous.

I have lived, I am gonna die. I hope I haven't done too many people too much wrong. I have made little or no difference in world affairs, or even in national or local affairs.

That's all.

If there is indeed a God, He can judge me on that. If there is indeed a God, I trust he will be forgiving of my foibles. I don't buy "free will - believe in me un-equivaquably - or you re damned"- hardly the definition of "free will", and all the other stuff.

In other words, "Give me a break, will-ya? "

..

Yep, and I agree with your attitude.

There was a time when heathens like yourself would have a high liklihood of being killed for displaying rational skepticism and appreciation, these days you are more likely to be subject to discrimination and persecution depending on where you live.

Of all the people I know, personally, I think I know only one true Christian, as I understand it, IMO. He lived it, never pushed it.

And I am an azzhole, at times. Most times.

I never really "liked" him, but for years he was my hunting partner. He's in out-of -home-care senior care facility now, memory for chits... tears my heart out. What's the god-justice in this?

I gotta go visit him before I leave for a trip/pseudo moose hunting in a couple days.

LOL…..where?

The majority of “persecutors” these days are those against christians. This is evidenced by the recent world-wide government-enforced shut down of churches during covid, but largely unrestricted gathering for secular-based protests.

Its 2023. You weren’t ever put in a dungeon and I never took part in a crusade. Christians just want to be left alone and spread the Good News among those willing to hear it.

Christianity does teach that God provides a way to save humanity from its shortcomings instead of choosing to only judge humanity for its shortcomings.

Christianity is a system to ensure discrimination and persecution - judgement is made by Christians, not their invisible, non-existent, sky magician. Christians denigrate themselves and their fellow human beings.

God bothering Xtians just want to be left alone..???
If that was actually true they would wait till non-
believers came knocking before preaching.


The historical record over millennia clearly and overwhelmingly
demonstrates any such g0d DGAF.
Atrocious infant mortality rate was not arrested until
modern medical science made the difference..the
Xtian g0d just kicked back and watched millions of
babies and mothers suffer and die, but apparently that
same g0d doesnt approve of abortion...too funny.


Vatican or CF claims of prayers working or miracles taking place
rank with Big Foot claims..But no doubt such find favor with the
credulous minded.

Feeding Xtians to lions was justified for being atheists
(not honoring Roman state g0ds)
And Xtians through history behaved the same
way toward heretics, pagans and Jews via
massacres/pogroms , crusades and inquisitions.

Neither your g0d or Jesus bothered to hard copy record anything,
it was left to anonymous non-witness snake oil salesmen.
(Jews can at least claim their g0d personally scribed the
Ten Commandments given to Moses.)

And pagan style human blood sacrifice of a crazy apocalyptic rabbi Jesus
and fan fiction tall story resurrected corpse is hardly credible argument for
some magical mythical promise of eternal life.

If NOTHING ELSE, is not the Ten Commandments a good way to live your life by?

Or do you reject them also.

Jesus was a great leader and a great teacher. If one doubts His resurrection, you’re in good company. Even His closest disciple’s were skeptical. But those same followers went on to become the spokesmen of Jesus’ ekklesia. They maintained their faith in the midst of incredible pain and suffering and injustice. They were beaten and tortured and killed still claiming that Jesus was their risen Savior.

So what do you make of this defining event ~ the one that became the very foundation of their faith…?

The arguments against Christianity in this thread are laid out as a straw man argument. The basis for the reasoning redefines and misrepresents the Christian faith. Until this who disagree come to the discussion addressing Christianity as it it truly taught this thread is just white noise.

"Addressing Christianity as it is truly taught."

I doubt you can find 2 Christians here that could agree on that.

Starman

Even critics are generally accepting the resurrection. You are behind the times.

It’s the essentials of Christianity that really matter. It’s OK for folks to have the personal freedom to hold varying interpretations on theological issues that are non-essentials. There were disagreements among Jesus’ own apostle’s. The apostle Paul refers to some examples of disputable matters in Romans 14.

I agree with you but there again, everyone is going to interpret what is essential differently. I've been pondering the question 25 years and would have said something different about every 5 years or so. I've basically got it down to just two words now. Trust God!

word

It’s about putting one’s trust and confidence in the sacrifice that Jesus made on our behalf; He did everything that was necessary for our salvation. All of our sin…past and present and future…has already been paid for by Him. Put your trust and confidence in the sacrifice that Jesus made on our behalf, and NOTHING else.

There’s something extremely funny if not psychologically troubling about the atheists that feel compelled to interject themselves and their stupidity in every Christian thread while THEY insult us, our God and our faith and then they bitch, wail and cry about how persecuted the little pussies are. 😂

Hypocritical, immature pussies that seek out people to intentionally insult then cry about how mean everyone is and how persecuted they are for insulting us. I’m not perfect which is why I’d love to turn their other cheek for them involuntarily…..then they’d at least have something legitimate and real to complain about!

Yea, but that's just because you're paying attention to them. I don't know what they said or did and don't care. Not that I haven't fallen for that crap too many times before. All of us have better thoughts to let dwell in us. There's always plenty of stuff to find wrong. It won't make you feel any better though. There's also lots of good things to think about. The whole world tries to point you toward the bad so it's a fight to focus on the good but it's there and you will have a lot better time looking for it than the other.

I know what you mean RH but Ray has turned a frown upside down and his recent engagements have been hilarious. I actually don’t now and never have ever had to “electronically ignore” anyone no matter how much I despised them. The atheist cucks here I don’t despise…heck I don’t even “hate” them, I feel sorry for them and I get angry but ultimately they’ve shown how truly stupid they are. I feel sorry for them. They’re not stupid because they don’t believe (although I think that’s stupid) they’re stupid because they can’t formulate their own thoughts in a rational or cogent manner and they allow their emotions from the damage their overbearing mothers and handsy fathers had to inform their entire world view on religion. They’re extremely limited in their ability to discuss or debate anything… without a “shotgun” approach to religious discussions they’re wholly unarmed, uniformed and quivering emotional basket cases. 😂

I don’t care what you believe and I’m not interested in converting anyone unless it’s their desire to seek the Lord. In that case I would do everything I could to attend to that with the Love of God leading the way.

Otherwise I’m just as likely to break your jaw if you acted in person like these clowns act online….(not “you” RH 😉)

Okay. Let’s be honest. Evangelistic outreach is the same inconvenience as any secular solicitor. No different. Nobody is sticking their foot in your door as you close it, much less riding in on horses and hacking down unbelievers. A simple “I’m not interested” gets nearly all undesirable would-be preachers going on down the road.

And again, you’ve never done time in a dungeon.



This gives me a chuckle. I, honestly do not know what is being attempted here. Do you believe in God and hate him so much that you intentionally misspell His name….or do not believe in a god and just look to insult christians. If the latter, I’m forced to assume you have, at least the intelligence to know its provocative and risks nobody taking you seriously. More to the point, if that’s the case, you know pretty much 99% of the christians here see it for what it is and the conversation is no longer about God (with the offender, anyway). It just turns into an ole fashioned worldly mud-slinging between guys that think the other one is a complete and utter douche.

Just wanted to be clear. I know of 2 complete morons that can’t grasp that simple concept.

Which god?

I think you'll find that you meant to type "faith" instead of "trust". For trust you'd need for something to exist and be shown as trustworthy, otherwise it's only faith.

That pains a broad picture. The evidence suggests that those discrepancies were addressed and corrected

Easy, they had no rational justification for their faith and it got them killed. Defiant dickheads I'd say.

Catholics and protestants, for example, get on so well together with their common faith core.

Yo! Easy, fer shure, day had nah ratahonal jus'ahfahcatahon for daahr faahth a' aht got dem kahlled. Defahat dahckheads I'd say. Slap mah fro!

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LOL!!!

No critical thinker believes the resurrection for good reason that there is no evidence that anything like this has ever, or would ever, happen. You are way, way behind the times.

Half of them are pretty much useless as they are just about a self-centred arrogant god. Ain't nobody got time for that. You'd think that a loving god would have something better to say than that - what a waste of dictation.

The essentials of Christianity are pretty clear and concise and simple to me. It’s about putting one’s trust and confidence in the sacrifice that Jesus made on our behalf; He did everything that was necessary for our salvation. All of our sin…past and present and future…has already been paid for by Him. Putting our trust and confidence in the sacrifice that Jesus made on our behalf..and NOTHING else…is where it’s at ~ for me anyway.

I don’t have to believe in the literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative (an example of a non-essential belief) to receive salvation. But I do have to believe in the Gospel (an essential belief) to receive salvation.

Except there's no reason to believe in sin as a thing; what sacrifice was there? (is J-dog burning in hell on our behalf?); and no reason to believe in salvation being a thing either. Reject Genesis and the whole story becomes invalid - I think you are starting to see the light. There are demonstrable fundamental errors in Genesis.

😂😂😂

That's a lot of energy spent by you God haters hating on something you insist doesn't exist. If you ain't got time for that, then why spend so much time on it?

Silly, juvenile, at a minimum.

Your denial of God will exceed your wildest expectations.

I may have said the same a few years ago. Let's just suppose somebody never heard the name Jesus all their life, but they looked at everything larger than themselves and honestly prayed to and trusted in the God, even though they didn't know the name Jesus, does it matter?

Isn't Jesus still that man's savior, even if he doesn't know his name? How many names did Jesus have anyway? If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one as scripture says, isn't trusting Jesus also trusting God?

Weren't the OT saints also saved by faith in Jesus since he is called the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world? They didn't know anything about him but their trust in God was sufficient, so did their trust in God in effect amount to trust in Jesus? I think maybe it did.

That's a lot of energy spent by you God lovers on something you insist exists. If you can't show it to be true, why do you believe it to be true, and want others to join the bandwagon?

Silly, juvenile, at a minimum.

Your belief in a God, and associated wild expectations, exceeds the grasp of reality.

The OT trust was in the promise of the Messiah. Christ said of himself that the OT texts, the law and prophets spoke of him.


Somehow we’ve missed that in the modern era but Christ is central in the OT texts.

More importantly why do you care so much what we believe?

Why does it disturb you so much what we believe that you have to intentionally and repeatedly insult us and our God if it’s so “silly, juvenile at a minimum”?

Your last sentence was obviously a mistake on your part because I agree with you. My (our) God does exceed one’s grasp of reality and his promises ARE greater than our wild expectations…..

If that last sentence is true and I assume it is because YOU said it yourself then why would you still insult us for believing in His Greatness?

things create themselves all the time , from absolutely nuthin', I seen it on utube

Your lot are the ones dumping their crap in my letterbox, and persecuting those that don't comply with your lot's fairy tales.

You don't seem to care about what may be true.



I resurrected and reused that part from Feral_American - you'll have to ask him why he thinks rationality and skepticism are juvenile.

Bullshit….you ARE a liar, plain and simple!

Nobody is forcing you to open these threads and respond. Nobody is dropping sh.it in “your fa.ggot ass “letter box”, boy! You don’t possess self control and you blame others like the cowardly Aussie cu.nt you are….fu.cking pussy. At least take responsibility for your stupidity and lack of self control, boy.

Once the Levitical priesthood is established it is very clear to see the sacrifices as symbolically pointing to the ultimate Sacrifice of Jesus. I think their faith in the sacrifices as taking care of their sins was symbolically faith in Jesus even if they weren't looking at him specifically.

If we go back to Abraham, the scripture simply says Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. He had no concept of the Messiah.

I personally think that there's just no time in God as we think of time. I think all times are one in God. Didn't all prophets see the future to us times within the Spirit of God? I think Jesus is the savior from first to last regardless of when the actual sacrifice happened in our time. Abraham Believed God and in so doing had faith in the Jesus to come just as much as those who sing his name every Sunday.

ditto, and right back at ya

(the bulk of your response is just outrageous - you need to try and control yourself)

Are you retarded or did you suffer head trauma?

You are a disingenuous lying son of a BITCH!

Nobody is forcing you to open these threads and respond. LOL!!!

There really is only one rational answer to those questions.

Satan has a death grip on these people.

He certainly has blinded the minds eye of the non-believers.

What makes you believe that?

Kinda weird atheists care so much about religion huh?

If it helps this is one of the bots last statement in its native language.


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Jesus is all through the OT texts. We just have to learn to see it because we’ve been taught that He isn’t there.

Christ in the Garden. The proclamation of the curse. The statement that the serpent would bruise the heel.

God, Christ, coming to Abraham and making the covenant of salvation with him in Genesis 15.

If we are faithful to the Faith, Christ and the teachings of the Apostles we have to accept the words of Christ.


Luke 24:25-27

[25] And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! [26] Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” [27] And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

This is a thread about God, a topic I happen to believe in and one that is of interest to me. You on the other hand are an ANTI-theist, a liar, a cuck, an effeminate little fa.ggot and a self-proclaimed victim of terrible persecution…..persecution that you could instantly avoid by not clicking on the persecution threads but you can’t so you lie about it and pretend to be victimized. There really is no hope for your country because unfortunately the younger generation has poor examples of fathers with sh.itheads like you cucks.

Unlike you I don’t voluntarily click on these threads and then claim that they are FORCED on me and I don’t have any choice but to respond with insults and stupidity.

Isurrenderedmymauser is the type of little bitch that goes to a baseball game and starts playing soccer while she screams about being victimized and then blames the guys playing baseball for being mean to her.

LOL. Now he’s being stalked and persecuted. 😂😂

This is pretty much the point where all of the other atheists start looking in another direction, whistling and murmuring “Yeah…I wouldn’t have fed them that line of BS. That’s a bit much”.

LOL!!! Nobody is forcing you to open these threads and respond. LOL!!!

I don’t think that Jesus came to extend an old religion, or to just clarify old truths. From the angel’s proclamation to Mary that she would give birth to a Son, it was clear that Jesus would do something brand new for the world.

Idiot alert.

She's also the type of byatch that will sukadik, then not dukdasik but swaller .... just for cab fare


then walk home lol !

The empirical evidence duh.

Clear as daylight.

How you act, speak, and treat others is exactly what Christians are taught about the actions of Satan's minions.

It'd not shock me at all to hear you diddle little boys in dark closets and kick puppies.

If you see this pattern the bots are crying or whining.



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So are we dealing with fembots?

C.S. Lewis asserted that “God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pain.” He said that “We can ignore even pleasure. But pain insists upon being attended to.”

"What a Friend we have in Jesus."

Poetic, but nothing else.

He dead.

Aces mousehunterwitha9mm, is a typical garden variety douchebag, nothing more, nothing less.

A Wood Tick has more class.

For some people, they were goin' along, kinda minding their own business, they maybe hadn't given God a thought in many years, or maybe ever, and then then got that call, they felt that pain, they got that bad news, and they realized that their life would never be the same again. And they found themselves looking up ~ and then they found themselves face to face with a God they'd maybe never believed in before, or that maybe they’d abandoned when they were younger. For them, that pain was the megaphone that got their attention and they drew near to God.

And for some people, their story is the opposite of that. Pain and suffering in the world, or maybe their personal experience with pain and suffering, caused them to doubt God, it's the thing that caused them to abandon faith. For these folks, that pain was the megaphone that pushed em’ further away from God.

It’s interesting that people with similar personal experiences with pain and suffering can arrive at very different conclusions about faith and God as a result.

Pain has got nothing to do with it. The fact is that there is no evidence of a god - why throw a god into the equation? It does nothing. Better off trying Panadol or something.

There a few hogs here that have had a lot of pearls tossed to them. Gotta ask. Who is smarter? The pig rooting at pearls, or the person that tossed the valuables to the pig? Now there’s a conundrum…

Biblical metaphors are empowering. LOL!!!

RF. Concerned. Hang in there. The feast season is approaching.

Again,

Hard to seek God when one thinks they are a god.

There are no atheists in foxholes.

Have you been reading, A Grief Observed?

No. But I am interested in de-conversion stories, especially of those who’ve walked away from faith because of pain and suffering in the world.

Has anyone who walked away then walked into a world of less pain and suffering?

Two books that CS Lewis wrote come to mind. One is a grief observed, which is him dealing with the death of his wife, after only a few years into that marriage. The other is surprised by joy which depicts his life as he moved away from the faith then back to the faith.

Yes there are - they're not the ones muttering into their hands.

There are plenty of people who have "seen the light" and left the faith having no good reason to return to it. Reality is what it is.

This is a result of brainwashing in school. They teach evolution instead of the Truth of God's Word about from where suffering comes. God claims He, The Infinite One, cursed the universe bring suffering and death.

There are a great many people out there who were people of faith and then they lost a child or they suffered a huge setback…they experienced some big challenging circumstances…and in the midst of it, they lost their faith. I’m certainly not gonna judge those people. I feel for em.’ If I were in their shoes, I might come to the same conclusion.

But at the same time…and I’m not minimizing anyone’s pain or suffering…there are people who have gone through similar things that they’ve gone through, or worse than they’ve gone through, who somehow managed to maintain their faith in God.

What makes the difference…?

I just Hope Death isn’t Preferable to what those 3 Counties that Surround Mordor have in Store for US ..


Pocket Full of Shells

Yeah it certainly makes me see more clearly how gracious God has been in offering His Son to a fallen race.

The pain, suffering, and injustice in our world are all due to human depravity. The fact that we even have a sense of Justice in an unjust world suggests the Creator made things differently than what they are now.

The fact that God allows any of us to continue to exist with or without the possibility of communion with Him is a testimony to His grace.

There are many who have gone through such trials and GROWN in their faith.

That blows my mind.

Divine mystery if you ask me.

I think it has a lot to do with a person's particular brand of faith. Do you see God as responsible for every good or bad thing in your life?

Hmm I don’t know as I’ve ever really thought it through ugh in those terms. I mean… yes & no?

On the one hand God is the author of the laws that govern the universe and He continuously is active in that created order. So yeah, He is “responsible” for everything in my life.

On the other hand my willingness/ability to operate within those laws He established has a direct impact on how good and/or bad my life is from one moment to the next.

I’m a bit uncomfortable with the word “responsible” as I don’t consider myself as a creature to be in a place to accuse the creator by “holding Him responsible” but I get the meaning of your question.

My mother in law, a saintly person who has loved the Lord her God as well as a human can was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s & dementia early last year. She has finished quickly, suffering greatly. Why has this happened? Who is “responsible”?

Well I mean God made the world and provinces it good then we messed it up. Even as she suffers… and I tear up typing this… she acknowledges the Lord as her God and looks to Christ for a day of reckoning when all things (including her mind) will be made new.

We bear witness to God’s faithfulness when we take up our cross and follow our Lord through inexplicable suffering as He did, and as He promised we would do.

I don’t know if that answers your question?

This might be one of those times when we just overthink things.

Dang. That is all too familiar. Not only personally but professionally. I’ve been a PT for 29 years mostly working with a geriatric population. I’ve seen what you and antler’s last posts speak to so many times.


I’d like to have answers to everything but there is the very real issue of paradox and we just can’t see past those chasms. I’ve been through things personally that I’d never want to go through again. Did I grow? Sometimes I think yea and sometimes I think not so much. Maybe the growth is not always visible to us?

It’s beautiful to hear that your mother in law, even now, lives in the hope of the Resurrection from the dead! Maybe the story of her suffering but with hope is meant to encourage us in our lives.

I think that you would enjoy the book Surprised by Joy.

Lewis goes through his loss of faith after his mothers death. His life in the first Great War and his journey back to Christ. It’s a very compelling read. I’d say that it is similar to Augustine’s Confessions. A lot of parallels between what each experienced.

I don’t think that there’s really an argument against the existence of God…the one presented to us by Jesus and other’s in the New Testament…based on pain and suffering and injustice in the world. To me, pain and suffering and injustice in the world does not prove that that God doesn't exist. All that pain and suffering and injustice in the world proves is that the God who doesn't allow pain and suffering and injustice in the world doesn't exist.

I mean, there's clearly pain and suffering and injustice in the world, right…? So clearly, there is no God who doesn't allow pain and suffering and injustice in the world. Theists oughta be able to agree on that. But here’s the thing about it ~ Christians have never believed in that God. That's not the God that Christians pray to; Christianity doesn’t even believe in that God.

If your thing is, “I don't believe in God because there's pain and suffering and injustice in the world”, I guess we kind of agree. I don't believe in a God who doesn't allow pain and suffering and injustice in the world either, because there's certainly pain and suffering and injustice in the world. The God of Christianity certainly allows those things.

On the contrary, Christians believe in a God who allowed the worst possible thing to happen to the best possible person ~ Jesus. And as disturbing as that may be to some, that's what Christians believe because that's what happened.

John 3:16

The literal definition of a Christian is someone who believes in THE ONLY God, who SENT his Son to be tortured and put to death, to pay the debt for all the sins of all mankind.

Nothing was "allowed" to happen, it was all a predetermined part of God's plan. Jesus himself knew his purpose and what would happen to him. Jesus paid the debt by dying on the cross. The Resurrection was proof of God's promise of everlasting life in God's kingdom.

Yes, that was God’s plan from the beginning, because God knew…God is OMNISCIENT and knows everything, even from the foundation of the world.

God had a plan of salvation in place because He knew man would fail without His help. It was foreordained before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-21 and Ephesians 3:9-11. God told Adam He would provide a Savior who would crush the serpent’s head, Genesis 3:15.

Jesus made it CLEAR in scripture His purpose was to die on the cross for the sins of the world. It was God’s divine plan from the beginning for Jesus to die on the cross for our despicable sins.

The problems are that there is no evidence for any god, and the god stories are simply ridiculous at best - just look at the bible for example.

Non-falsifiability does not provide any support to a claim, no matter how hard you try to make believe that it does, or how childishly you try and defend it.

Look at this reverse jehovah witness brogan stroking off in the religious forums again.
Lolq

For the Ebonics speakers this is what the FEMBOT posted.


Yo! The beefs is dat dare ahs nah evahdence for ay god, like, wow, a' da god starahes is sahmply rahdahculous at best - jus' loaahahght at da bahble for exisple. What it is, like, Mama!Non-falsahfahabahlahty doeses not provahde ay support ta a claahm, mostly, nah Gonorsan Jer how hard ya try ta make belaheve dat aht doeses, fer shure, or how chahldahshly ya try a' defend aht.

In my life and during the darkest times of my life I never questioned God, I never doubted his love for us and because of His love I was able to endure the pain and sadness. I have never felt closer to Him than in those desperate moments and that gave me strength. There were times that I knew I’d bought the farm and my time here was now measured in minutes….I’d continue my ongoing and daily conversations with God, some call prayer, and ask for His forgiveness for my sins and the strength and clarity of mind to make the next right decision. There were times that I did make the next right decision but there were times when I just seemed to somehow get through it…not because of anything I had done.

I’ve never not walked with the Lord and I don’t ever recall a time when I felt he wasn’t right beside me so I’m probably not a good person to ask about this stuff since my beliefs are based on real and observable accounts that happened to me and that I WITNESSED. Nobody can convince me that He isn’t who He says He is and in fact everything I’ve seen in 52 years leads me to KNOW without a doubt that He IS who He claims to be!

I don’t need anyone else to agree with me or confirm that what I know is true to be true! You could spend 24 hours a day for the rest of your life telling me what to believe and you’d be wasting your time!

1. God's divine plan was to torture his best person to death.

2. For something he didn't do.

3. Which was that time an imaginary Jew ate an apple.

4. Four thousand years before he was born.

5. And now that his will is done, and his best person was tortured to death,

6. We get exactly the same pain, suffering, and injustice which we'd already had before he tortured his best person to death.

7. With the bonus of being burned in a lake of fire forever if we fail to follow every word of this bullshit.

The only despicable thing here is your God.

You need to do a little more reading. Some of your information is really flawed.

Admiral Jim Stockdale was a POW for 8 years during the Vietnam War. He was a Vice Admiral in the Navy and he was the highest ranking United States military officer to be imprisoned in the Hanoi Hilton. He was tortured many times and he still refused to participate in the North Vietnamese propaganda machine. He even cut up his own face with a razor so they wouldn’t put him on camera.

Many years later he was interviewed by Jim Collins when he was writing his book ‘Good to Great’ and in the interview he was asked how he survived 8 years in a POW camp. He replied, “I never lost faith in the end of the story.” That’s a pretty powerful statement. He went on to say that he never doubted that not only would he get out, but that he would also prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of his life.

And then he said that the lesson to take away from all of this is: “Retain trust and confidence that you will prevail in the end...regardless of the difficulties...and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.” That statement is known as the Stockdale Paradox. Bristoe posted it on this forum many years ago.

His point was to never give up hope but at the same time never deceive yourself about your current reality either. You never give up hope but at the same time you don't refuse to face the things that you don't wanna face, the things that would cause you to possibly lose hope. You hold both of em.’ You never give up hope and you never deceive yourself about your current reality either.

All this love is killing me .

Yeah, the tale is a casserole of nonsense.

Jesus was a cult leader and failed apocalyptic, and was put to death for blasphemy - play stupid games, win stupid prises.

Pedophile dundee trying to hide in the jeezus forums again.

You’ll have to excuse him. He was a little side tracked for a while.
🤣🤣🤣

Nah, they sound more like the whining snot nosed fat kid who just dropped his oatmeal cream pie in a mud puddle.

I think that there is a similar paradox with Christianity: followers of Jesus also have a future hope and it is also tethered to a brutal fact. The problem is that many people get so focused on the future hope that they maybe try to pray away, and/or reason away, and/or faith away, and/or obey away, and/or just deny the brutal fact that is also part of the package.

There is a brutal fact of Christianity. And it’s easy to lose sight of, especially when things are going good. But if we lose sight of it when things are going good, it creates doubt and/or confusion, and/or despair, and/or faithlessness, and/or disbelief when things turn upside down. Here's the brutal fact of Christianity:

There is a cause and effect relationship between sin and pain and suffering and injustice in the world. And we all know this on a personal level because all of us have done things that were bad and we suffered because of it. We have all experienced the negative consequences that are associated with bad behaviors. We have all experienced the personal consequences of our personal sin. But the brutal fact of Christianity that I’m talking about…the one that is so difficult for many people to get their hearts and minds around…is this ~ the cause-and-effect relationship between sin and pain and suffering and injustice in the world goes way beyond personal behavior. It is a global reality.

The brutal fact of Christianity is that there is a global relationship between sin and pain and suffering and injustice in the world. This is the part that so many people resist. And the reason it’s resisted is because it's not fair and it takes everything out of our control. But the fact is, that when sin entered the world, it held the door open for pain and suffering and injustice, along with sorrow and illness and death and despair, etc.. They all snuck in right behind sin. When sin entered the world, all of the bad came in right along with it.

Great post!

antlers,

A couple of good posts. Thanks for your insight.

When you read the New Testament, Jesus acknowledged this worldview ~ Jesus acknowledged this brutal fact. The message of Jesus was clearly a message of hope that never lost sight of the brutal fact that sin was making its way through the world and would impact every single person. This was built-in to the perspective that He lived with and that He embraced and that He left us with in the Gospels.

As I consider the reality of our condition I find comfort that Christ is described as the “Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world”.

There is more in that declaration than we can comprehend.