Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Sir Russ,

Asante sana sana for that.
Close enough.
I am sure Woodleigh did not do all their data in the same test barrel.
Who knows, maybe they let a 26-incher do their 550-grain data
and a 22-incher did their 450-gr HYDRO data.
Or they had all 24-inchers and some barrels are faster or slower than your 24-incher.
Powder lot variability is going to be as minimized as possible with the ADI Benchmark 2/Hodgdon Benchmark.
Are reported velocities corrected to MV from what range, etc. ???
We cannot control for everything, but this is as good as it gets.
Your results are excellent.

Woodleigh did single out BENCHMARK as the best single powder choice for the .458 WinMag.
You too.

Revised from a work by Nick Harvey about the .458 Lott,
a hand-drawn sketch by Jack Lott was spiffed up by a professional draftsman.
Thanks again to Australia.
The dimensions in red below have been altered by -0.100" and +0.100"
to correct the debauchery of reaming a .458 WinMag to 2.800" brass.



Yes, the .458 Watts Winchester takes brass that is 2.700" long.
Long COL loads for the .458 WM+ are perfect in the .458 WW, same-same,
though might be excessive in the SAAMI .458 Lott.

The only way to improve on the .458 WM+ with heavy/long bullets is to increase the MAP to 65,000 psi
and/or use a particular bullet that can be loaded to longer COL in the .458 WW than in the .458 WM+.

Sir Ron, I have no Benchmark but I am satisfied with AA2230. Excellent velocity at 3.380 COAL and fine accuracy

Sir John,
So far, that is my top load too, or you can use AA-2460 with a wee bit of compression,
or H4895 with a lot of compression.
2500 fps with 404-gr Shock Hammer is superb.
I better get to work on some Benchmark loads with 400-ish grainers to see how the "standard" load compares to this.
I have neglected Benchmark too long.

BTW, here is the only clue to .458 Winchester Magnum Denial Syndrome that I was ever able to dig up:



The guy above on the right is also fond of the SAAMI .458 Lott,
but he thinks the .458 WinMag kicks too much. Go figger !
Same character flaws for the guy shooting a .577 Trex below:

I'm using Norma cases and a compressed load of AA2230 with the Hammer 404 grain for 2523 FPS.

77 grains of H4198 should give about 2550 fps for the 404 SH seated long from a 24" barrel. No compression, or very little.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Very good. Norma brass was 4.7 grains greater in gross water (99.3 gr) than Hornady (94.6 gr).
Increasing the COL of the .458 WM+ from 3.380" to 3.480" will add 4.2 grains of water gross.
So a 3.480" COL with Hornady brass is very like a 3.380" COL with Norma brass.


Using Norma brass and the 404-gr SH with AA-2230, I found that increasing the COL from 3.38" to 3.48"
caused a velocity loss of -63 fps.
Adding 4 more grains of AA-2230 to the 3.480" COL boosted that reduced MV by +120 fps.

Seems that you need to add about 2 grains of powder for each 0.1" of extra COL to keep same MV/pressure.
Likewise, use of Hornady brass case requires about 2 grains less powder than a Norma brass case
at same COL for both, for about same MV.

I believe the 404-gr Shock Hammer benchmark-BENCHMARK load ought to be with COL set at 3.340", wherever the crimp may fall.
And it ought to use the more standard 94-ish-grains brass instead of the 99-ish-grains Norma brass.
This should be compared to the "Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual" results for 400-gr PPSN with the crimp in the factory cannelure:
78.0 grains (compressed) Benchmark/Benchmark 2 for 2340 fps MV.
Seems kind of slow for the manual data.
Like what Sir Russ found with his rifle and 450-gr HYDRO.

My listing, again, of findings for brass makes,
once-fired, not resized,
and mathematically corrected to 2.500" brass length for gross water capacity:

Norma: 99.3 grains
W-W Super (post 1996): 94.9
R-P: 94.8
Hornady: 94.6
Federal: 94.6
Federal Nickle-plated: 94.4
Peterson Wildcat tube: 93.8

I think I will save the Peterson Wildcat tube for the .458 Watts-Winchester 2.7": 102.1 grains H2O gross.
MAP for the .458 WW will be 65,000 fps, same as the .416 RemMag.
So it will really leave the .458 Lott in the rear view mirror,
with same loads as the .458 WM+ that uses a SAAMI chamber.

Yes, about right, Sir Bob, if you make the COL 3.580", maximum possible for the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
Probably an underestimate for the MV of a HIGH PRESSURE load with 77 grains at 3.480" COL

In my 25" Shilen barrel on Bobbarrella the CZ 550 Magnum, at 86*F:

W-W Super brass
GM215M primer
3.480" COL (BOL 1.440", seat depth 0.460")
404-gr Shock Hammer (G1 BC 0.419)

72.0 grains H4198
5-yard Chrono: 2499, 2511, 2503
mean = 2504 fps
MV = 2514 fps

24" barrel would be mighty close to 2500 fps.
From 70.0 to 72.0 grains of H4198, velocity increased exactly 40 fps, about 20 fps per grain.
Adding 5 more grains for the 77.0 grain charge might add 100 fps: 2600 fps unless there are diminishing returns after 72.0 grains.
Or a primer fell out of the expanded primer pocket !

Bumping the COL out to 3.58" might give 2550 fps in 24" barrel with 77.0 grains of H4198.
Using Norma brass at 3.480" might work too.

70.0 grains of H4198 with W-W Super brass and 3.380" COL might be a great load for the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
And so the powder burns and the world turns.

Some elaboration on the point to EdM on another thread needs to be posted here for its
pertinence to the history of the .458 Winchester Magnum:


You can even make better birdshot/snake loads with the .458 WinMag than with a .416 RemMag.
I will concede the .458 Lott might make a better shotgun.


.416/400-gr SD = 0.330
.458/500-gr SD = 0.341

.416 RemMag: 400-gr at 2400 fps and 65,000 psi

.458 WinMag: 500-gr at 2200 fps at 60,000 psi:

The .458 WinMag will out penetrate the .416 RemMag on game animals if a proper FN monometal solid is used.
When you get to 2200 fps little is gained on penetration by going faster,
other than shock and awe,
more to the shooter than the shootee.

Thus the .458 WinMag is better at long range with 404-gr Shock Hammer.
It is better on elephant at close range with a 500-gr FN.

Those are routinely attained MV's with 24" barrels.
Winchester is loading the 500-gr Nosler Partition and Solid at 2,240 fps.
Hornady used to offer 500-grainers at 2260 fps, soft and solid, when their bullets could not handle it.
Lately they have backed off to 2140 fps with better bullets.

This reminds us of a possible explanation for why Winchester reduced the MV of .458 WM factory loads
from 2125 fps with their 500 & 510-grainers (standard from 25" barrel since 1956),
to only 2050 fps in 26"-barreled double rifles.
They were catering to the .458 WinMag double rifle craze that sprung up when the rimmed DR ammo got scarce.
It was not because of any problems with the .458 WinMag.
It was because of the abuses of the ammo by shooters of double rifles,
lower pressures for the delicate things.
Factory goofs and bad storage of aged ammo can explain any anecdotes of the
.458 WinMag bullets dropping to the ground right out of the barrel in deepest Africa

The .458 Winchester Magnum is without peer. It is the King of +.40-bore hunting rifles.
Everybody ought to have at least one of them as a show of good judgement.
Re-barrel or re-bore your .416 RemMag to .SAAMI .458 WinMag, and you will have two rifles in one.
A SAAMI .458 WM and a .458 WM+.

Man, you put a bayonet right into the heart RC! I like it!

No holds barred!

Sir Ron,

My comment of 77 grains of H4198 for a 404 SH at ~2550 was due to some experience with the original 400 X-Bullet over 78 grains of the same powder at 2590 fps (corrected to MV) from the 24" barrel of the Ruger No.1.

I'm not recommending it, but IF I were going "North" again for a bull moose, that might be my load. I'd have no qualms in using it. The COL was 3.65". The 404 has a BT so would be seated a bit deeper, but since I've none at hand, I don't know where the first groove would be, Soooo, I'd estimate 77 max for the 404. But would make any compromises essential to safety and accuracy within reason. I still have a bunch of those "longed for" 400 Xs.

The 404 being the best replacement - thanks to your good work... as always!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,
You make good sense as usual.
Here is a repeat on the COL, BOL, and seating depths
sort of like me doing a commercial for Hammer Bullets:





Poor ol' .458 Lott gets to work with only one COL, 3.580".
I heard Sir James (Hydehunter) used a 3.68" COL, in his CZ 550 Magnum .458 Winchester Magnum,
for a fast and low pressure load one-shot cape buffalo bull kill with the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
Sir Jerry stuck with a 3.480" COL and 2500 fps in his M70 .458 WM+ using AA-2460.
There are more ways to load a .458 WM+ than to skin a cat like the SAAMI .458 Lott.

Speaking of the .458 Lott.
I heard Jack Lott's significant other was named Mona.
They had fun by going to a restaurant without reservations.
They would wait on the bench in the entrance foyer for the hostess to call them:

"Table for Jack and Mona Lott."

They enjoyed hearing everyone in earshot bust out in laughter as they arose and sauntered in,
Jack and his sister Mona high-fiving as they followed the red faced hostess to their table.

Good Day Fellow Knights of the Squared Table.....

I finally got some range time with my newly acquired Ruger M77 458. It's a beautiful rifle - looks practically brand new although the serial number shows it was built in 1978! I added a Leupold 1.5x5 scope I've had for several years.



Anyway, I loaded some very light loads to start out with - 45-70 level stuff. I didn't get to do much accuracy testing, only had time to get it on paper at 25 yards. I was very surprised when I only had to make a few clicks right to get things lined up.

I had 2 loads, both using the Hornady 325gr FTX:

30.0gr AA5744 w/CCI 250 primer COL 3.319 - averaged a leisurely 992fps. Recoil was nonexistent. I probably need to add some powder, but it's fun to have a subsonic 458!

48.0gr H4198 w/CCI250 primer COL 3.319 - averaged 1846fps. Should knock the snot out of our Southern Whitetails.

I may up the charge to get an even 2000fps, similar to a factory Hornady Leverevolution 45-70 loads.

Here's the FTX at 3.319, seated to the groove, and a 45-70 load for reference. Looks like some ICBMs to me!

I still have 30 of a box of 50 of those 325gr FTX's. They were bought 15 yrs ago for my NEF single-shot in .45-70, which I took wolf hunting in January. Never shot a wolf but they were accurate at ~2400 fps. Have never loaded any since nor fired any in my .458s. I'd donate them to someone handy in Ontario.

But the Hornady 250gr MonoFlex is a bullet I like very much from my Ruger No.1 Tropical in .458. It's very accurate and punches well above its weight. I've two loads for it, and neither is max: One from Sir Ron that shoots into sub-moa - 65 grains of A5744 at ~2610 fps, and a load I put together using H4198: 69 grains of H4198 at ~2708 fps. That too is sub-moa. Using a max load of H4198 I've gone over 3000 fps with that bullet, but there's little point as the velocity drops off rather quickly due to a rather poor BC. However, using Sir Ron's load, I test fired it into a very tough media (dry glossy magazines) from 10 ft and it retained 94% of it's unfired weight. So, that's one of my "go-to" loads for this area where shots will never be more than 150 yds. It's also very mild in recoil at about 30 ft-lbs, less 15% from the Mag-na-ports = about 25 ft-lbs - about the same as a heavy load in an 8 lb .30-06. A5744 is not quite as good as H4198 in resistance to extremes in temps.

That bullet was made by Hornady for the Marlins in .450 and .45-70 at around 2200 - 2300 fps max... and recommended for elk, moose, bears, etc. The 325 FTX has a lead core and is much more frangible.

All of that is somewhere earlier in this thread, but this may save having to read the whole document - which you should anyway.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob - thanks for the recommendations! I have a couple of 45-70s, a Marlin 1895 w/22" barrel and a Ruger #1 Tropical, so I already had the FTXs Having 1 bullet for 3 rifles works pretty well. I'll keep them around 2000-2100 max for sure. I've shot a couple of pigs and a nice 10 point with the Marlin and the FTX really wacks them.

I'll probably never get to Africa, so it may be a while before I start loading heavier loads, but that's one of the great things about the 458 - you can make it whatever you want!



p.s. I have read all the pages of the thread, it's great reading! Such a great source of knowledge of all things 458

Sir Thomas,
Thanks for posting images of your mighty .458 Winchester Magnum.
You are dangerous now.

good day eveyone, that reminds me of a couple customers that I had, when they came in even though I knew their names I always had to ask and not chuckle. Harry and Cherry Crack was their names

Sir James,
Asante sana sana.

Now to figure out a double date joke of some sort for the Lotts and the Cracks.
Here are Harry and Cherry Crack in a meme revised so as to be more socially redeeming:



Now accepting any comedy writing to work the Lotts and the Cracks into a skit together, tag team style or double date, or ttwhatever.

"When Jack and Mona Lott Met Harry and Cherry Crack" could be a movie starring Hunter Biden as Harry Crack.
Might already exist on Hunter's laptop.

Though Ross "denied" the .458 WinMag, he liked posing it at short COL
next to the .416 Taylor at Long COL:



And the .416 Taylor was used in a Blaser !
That is sick.