Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

The .375 H&H M70 Winchester and a Colt revolver in .45 LC were on James Watts,
until the grizzly shot by the .375 ran over him and clawed the pistol belt and holstered gun off James Watts' hip
in the middle of a creek.
The bear did die on the other side of the creek across which he had charged.
James got wet and bruised by a paw swat that knocked him over.
In his mind the .375 H&H and the .45 Long Colt had a baby, in the Summer of 1939.



After 1939, WWII and other factors intervened, so James Watts did not have a shooting
.450 Watts Magnum rifle until 1949.
But he did get to shoot a lot of 50 BMG guns, installing them in bombers and zeroing them.

The gunsmith Harvey Anderson who built the first .450 Watts Magnum, on an FN Mauser in 1949,
copyrighted the cartridge in 1950, and did fair business making .450 Watts Magnum rifle for others.
He and James also produced other cartridges including the .450 Watts Short.
By 1953 the .450 Watts Magnum had been written up in magazines and Jack O'Connor had used it as a Safari Rifle.
About 1954 Watts said he signed "a release" to WRAC for them to go ahead with what would become
the .458 Winchester Magnum, shooting by 1955, all over the world by 1956.
Watts had been begging Winchester to do something like that since 1947.

Some joker without a clue must have written this in 1953 to get it into the 1954 edition of GUN DIGEST:













This is akin to stolen valor, like with Jack Lott inventing a replacement for the .458 WinMag
in 1971 after his gut shot to the buffalo in 1959,
though he and his buddies continued using the .458 WinMag in the interim,
with much better success than Jack's first outing with it.

Nowadays you can buy factory loads with 500-grainers that produce 2240 fps from a 24" barrel.
Jack had trouble handling 2125 fps with 500- and 510-gr bullets from his 25" barreled M70 African.
After a soft to the buffalo's gut, the RN steel FMJ "solid" went squirrely.
Jack moaned a Lott after that.
He should have blamed his own shooting and the lousy RN FMJ "solid."
But no, he blamed the .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge 12 years later,
a likely excuse for face saving and self aggrandizement, naming a cartridge after himself.
Finally, suicide was the only way out.
Very sad.

Sir Ron a velocity and accuracy test between Benchmark and AA2230 would be interesting

Sir John,
Components are sitting on the reloading bench.
Too many ol'lady things going on lately.
Will do.
The Woodleigh manual actually has data for BENCHMARK with the 400-gr PPSN.
Will try that at 3.48"-3.58" with the 404-gr Shock Hammer in the 2.5" brass of the .458 WinMag.

I will do it properly this time, starting low and working up.
Last time I started with H4895 and the maximum .458 Lott load with 400-gr PPSN in the .458 WinMag with COL of 3.425", IIRC.
COL with that bullet in the .458 Lott should be about 3.470".
Loading Manual MV for the .458 Lott was supposed to be 2570 fps.
I beat that with the .458 WinMag at COL that was 0.045" shorter than in the Lott.

.458 Lott: 2570 fps MV, 3.470" COL crimped on factory cannelure.
.458 WinMag: 2627 fps MV, 3.425" COL crimped on a secondary cannelure,

That was with 87.0 grains of H4895, compressed load in the .458 Lott also.
To be fair, my .458 WinMag had a 25" barrel.
The Woodleigh .458 Lott barrel might have been 24".
A one inch barrel differenece from 24" to 25" ought to add no more than 15 fps.
No excuse.
The .458 WinMag still wins.

Instead of starting at the top with heavily compressed H4895 and Woodleigh bullet,
I will start low with BENCHMARK and work up. with 404-gr Shock Hammer and BENCHMARK.

Sir Ron your 4895 load beats my AA2230 load with the 404gr Hammer

Sir John,
Just kind of inconvenient when you have to use a drop tube and compress it that much.
The .458 Lott has 0.045" length of powder column advantage, which is piddly.
H4895 is heavily compressed in the .458 Lott also, when you load it to crimp on that Woodleigh cannelure
with the 400-gr PPSN.

Stay tuned, I have a plan for the Benchmark comparison.
Funny that
SWIFT BULLET COMPANY RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER TWO
has Benchmark data for their 400-grainer in the .458 Lott but not the .458 WinMag !



Good summary on the .458 WinMag.
Just the facts, no Lottite BS.



I have always noticed the Swift A-Frame is bit sticky in the barrel and gives a little slower MV (and/or higher pressure)
than a slicker bullet like the Nosler Partition of same weight. Must be lubricity difference of pure copper versus gilding metal ?
Just my observation.
The 404-gr Shock Hammer with magic copper alloy and PDR bands will be more slippery.





So, some short-COL loads to satisfy SAAMI.
Note brass used above was Federal and barrel was 1:14" twist and 24" length, by Wiseman.
The .458 Lott data that follows is where the Benchmark loads were found.
Note brass used was Norma and barrel was a 1:10" twist and 24" long, by Wiseman.



Historical note above about the .458 Lott is faulty in not telling that Jack Lott waited over a decade
to suddenly realize in 1971 that the .458 Winchester Magnum was faulty,
even though he and his friends continued to use it successfully from 1959 to 1971.
After he helped his buddy create the .460 G&A circa 1970, he realized he needed a new Schtick too.
Thus the .458 Lott was sold by badmouthing the .458 WinMag and totally ignoring the .450 Watts Magnum.
The note is excellent in noting the part that the A-Square Company had in commercializing the .458 Lott in 1989,
shamefully from Kentucky location at the time,
and SAAMI homologation in 1995.

So, we have Woodleigh data with Benchmark propellant in the SAAMI .458 WinMag
and Swift data for the SAAMI .458 Lott.

Recall that I tested two .458 WinMag Mausers, Freki and Geri,
as examples of 1:10" and 1:14" twists,
both with 0.458" grooves,
both with 24" barrel length (or 24-1/4" to be more precise),
but Geri has a 0.200" shorter-than-SAAMI throat while Freki has SAAMI throat for the .458 WinMag.

Predictably Geri was faster in MV, with the Hornady 500-gr DGX factory load advertised at 2140 fps MV.
Geri: 2196 fps MV
Freki: 2145 fps MV

So 1:10" twist has no significant speed impediment according to that.
My previous testing of other SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag rifles of 1:14 twist,
whether 0.458" or 0.459" in groove diameter,
all showed about 2140 fps MV for 24" barrel. Honest Hornady.

I will use Freki to test the Benchmark, in Norma brass to be most like the Swift data.
I will start at 3.28" COL and 78 grains of Benchmark for the 404-gr Shock Hammer.

3.280" COL 78.0 gr Benchmark
3.380" COL 80.0 gr
3.480" COL 82.0 gr
3.580" COL 84.0 gr

Will fine tune from there.
Equivalent loads with the W-W/Hornady/Federal/R-P brass would need COLs 0.100" longer than above.
Maybe skip any 3.680" COL. That is a bit of a stretch.

Oops, their I go again, started with a Woodleigh max load for 400-grainer in .458 WinMag.
However, I am starting low and working up to more than the .458 Lott max load in the Swift manual.
Tell your kids not to try that at home.

I've often wondered if the "sticky" A-frame bullets could be powder coated (and sized after if needed) to reduce pressure and increase velocity. A direct comparison with all other variables held constant could be interesting.

Sir Bevan,
Interesting. I never thought of that.
There will be some spring-back.
Soft copper jacket and soft lead (bonded) cores with a thick copper partition in the middle.
If it springs back by .002":
A .458 A-Frame pushed through a 0.455" sizer might spring back to .457" and get painted up to .458" after degreasing.
Or, squeaky clean bullet painted to 0.459" then pushed through a 0.456" die might spring back to 0.458".
Yep, latter sounds better.

Having a set containing .455", .456", .457", and .458" sizers would be a good start.
It seems when I size a .463" PC-painted BHN25 hardcast with a 0.460" sizer, it springs back to 0.461".
Soft lead sizes true: 0.000"
TSX springs back 0.002", IIRC.
Probably A-frame 0.002" also.
A worthy experiment. Would have to try and see.

Forgot to mention Swift data for CFE 223 and 500-grain A-Frame in the .458 Lott:





The .458 Lott requires compression of CFE 223 (109% LR) to get over 2200 fps.
Use same powder charge (or more) with 3.600" COL, easy with the longer bullet in the .458 WM+
and a second cannelure on the 500-grainer.
Reduce copper fouling with CFE 223, or use PC-paint and proper sizing.
Ought to be able to outrun the .458 Lott with CFE 223 in the .458 WinMag using 500-grainers.
.458 Lott max load is .458 WM+ starting load. Heh, heh, heh.

That's great news for CFE223! I'm already using it in my .35 Whelen and .375 H&H. Now I've another choice for the great .458 Win Mag. Thanks Sir Ron!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,
Glad you like it.
Funny how they had to use compressed loads
with 6 out of 9 powders in the .458 Lott.
AND they did not even crack 2240 fps MV
which is available as a factory load for the SAAMI .458 WinMag and 500-gr Noslers.

The Square Table theme is the quest for the Holy Grail.
Like Monty Python we do a bit of tongue in cheek here,
especially when it comes to the .458 Lott.
Never with the .458 Winchester Magnum,
especially when pulling the trigger on one.
Might bite tongue off.

King .458 Winchester Magnum hears plea of the Black Knight of the Lottites:

I saw one of these at the Lexington, KY Cabela's Gun Library, used, good price.



In retrospect, I should have bought it.
Could have fixed it by running a SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer into it.

I am grateful to have found this .458 WinMag on sale at the Grand Opening of the Cabela's Store in Louisville, KY:

The rifle that got me excited again about the .458 WinMag
after "decades of denial" fueled by the lunatic ravings of
exalted Gun Guru Ross Seyfried:





The pristine .458 WinMag take-off barrel resulted from the "decades of denial."
Bought that CZ 550 Magnum just to re-barrel it to some feral wildcat.

Not all goes well, with those efforts to make lemonade from a lemon,
to undo the violation of a .458 WinMag.
I had another .458 WinMag that I thought was good after I had a .458 Lott reamer run into it,
during the "decades of denial."
I was hoping it might be salvageable by shortening by 0.3" at the breach.
Alas, the relief cut required to get the barrel off messed that up.
It still took 2400 ft-lbs of torque to unscrew the barrel,
as unbeknowst it had been epoxied into the action at the CZ factory.
I think the Czechs discovered J-B Weld long ago.

One .458 WinMag take-off barrel was resurrected.
However that one that had been turned into a .458 Lott
(the devil made me do it)
sure went to hell in a handbasket.
Might have saved another one but for the unknown epoxy installation of barrel by CZ
on the innocent original .458 WinMag chambering.

At least the deceased .458 Lott barrel was able to donate an organ.
Marcella got a banded front sight out of the deal.
Hard to find a lighter front sight with banded ramp than on a CZ,
especially after some of the rear end of the ramp is hacksawed to shorten it:



I now use that .458 Lott barrel as a cheater pipe on an arbor press.
Could also be used in place of rebar for concrete reinforcement.
Or as a garden stake.

Good news on the Hodgdon BENCHMARK (ADI Benchmark 2).

Rifle was Freki the FN Mauser with 24-1/4" Pac-Nor No. 5 Sporter, 1:10" twist.
Scope: Leupold FX Freedom 3-9x40mm Muzzle Loader UltimateSlam Reticle,
Scope Mounts: Near MFG Rail, 8x40 screws, Burris Xtac Low Rings

400-gr CEB Safari Solid "Special" Brass FN: COL 3.360"
BOL = 1.225"
G1 BC = 0.180
Norma brass
GM215M primer
69*F
78.0 gr Benchmark with drop tube: Not Compressed, ~ 99% fill
5-yard chrono for 5 shots, mean = 2481.8 fps ... corrected to MV = 2506 fps
5 shots went into one hole at 50 yards.

404-gr Shock Hammer: 3 different COLs, 3.380", 3.480" and 3.580", just could not bring myself to do 3.280".
BOL = 1.440"
G1 BC = 0.419
Norma brass
GM215M primer
69*F

COL 3.380"
78.0 gr Benchmark (mildly compressed): Chrono 2453 fps mean ... MV = 2463 fps, accurate
80.0 gr Benchmark (more compressed): Chrono 2589.8 fps mean ... MV = 2600 fps, not as accurate

COL 3.480"
82.0 gr Benchmark (mildly compressed): Chrono 2610.25 fps mean ... MV = 2620 fps, accurate

COL 3.580"
84.0 gr Benchmark ("full case"): Chrono 2602 fps mean ... MV = 2612 fps, most accurate

Target pictures and further discussion to follow.

Stocking up on Hodgdon BenchMark is recommended.
Excellent for 400-gr to 550-gr bullets in the SAAMI .458 WinMag and same with .458 WM+ loads.
Best level TBI.
Tiny little extruded grains meter very well, like the ball powders.

Hot digity dog Sir Ron you just set a new BENCHMARK

I just wish all the .458 Win Mag 'haters' would visit this thread... but they'd probably be still in denial!

I should know - I've been arguing with people on various forums for 20 years now over my beloved .458 Win Mag.
I've written hunt reports, articles, stories and even given load data and people still refuse to believe on just how good the .458 Winchester Magnum is...

I honestly believe that this thread is without a doubt the leading authority on the .458 Winchester Magnum in the world today, and for this I thank Sir Ron, Sir Bob and all the other knights from the bottom of my heart.

To everyone who's contributed... Thank you.

Russ.