Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters JB; PRC die dimensions and "clickers"

So far we have three options: open up a few thousandths at the .200 line; use a mandrel die to hit just past the .200 line every time in addition to FL sizing; use a custom die; or a combination of all three.

Guys are already wearing out barrels with this round and with this methods, not wearing out brass prematurely, and winning trophies.

Pressure induced extraction woes are not the same as “clickers” imo. They feel completely different. But that is my opinion. It is like they say about spornography (spelling intentional). It’s hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

Agreed

My experience with clickers (using non-PRC cases) is that the initial bolt lift feels normal, but the primary extraction is difficult. Hence, the "click" when the bolt handle hits the camming ramp on the receiver. I've had this happen, even with moderate loads, in .243AI and .223AI cases after 4-5 firings. And by "moderate," I mean near-max published loads for the non-AI, SAAMI versions of the cartridges. Admittedly, I am one who is certainly ignorant to the actual pressures of those loads, but the various pieces of evidence available to me leads me to believe that peak pressures were moderate. Seems to be a work-hardening issue near the base of the case, as FL sizing seems to help. A SB die would be even better, I'm sure.

If your convinced the SB die will work then why not just use the AW2 reamer? many have just ran it in by hand on a saami chamber.
I tried the SB thing and it just cracked the die so I said F it and had my reamer reground. Problem solved
If your mechanically inclined its not that hard, if you dont have the know how or not sure of yourself have a smith do it, some have even polished the back end .002
If you dont have access to a lathe i suggest not to try the latter.

I'm not convinced that a SB die (possibly custom) would work with the PRC problem we're discussing, but I don't see why it wouldn't. I'm also not opposed to any particular reamer. I don't have experience with PRC cases and clickers, so I'm trying to understand the issue and am asking questions more than giving answers. My comment above was about my experience with clickers using .223AI and .243AI cases. There's nothing special about the dimensions of new brass. A die of the proper dimensions can size fired brass to dimensions that are smaller than new. Work hardening plays a role and may require an extra tight die. But again, I'm not opposed to the AW2 reamer, either.

Your die cracking is the first I've ever heard of that happening when sizing a brass case.

There is nothing special about the dimensions of new brass? Have you cut a case apart at the base? Explain to me how you size smaller at the base of a new case thats a solid piece of brass there.
Hey man you wanna do the SB thing go ahead spend your money. As far as the case cracking cant explain it, I cut .100 off the bottom and parted off the shoulder part to of a Redding 28 Nos die like Butch Lambert earlier said to do and after 10 cases it cracked.

Really it's time to let this thing die, if people think they have better ideas then have at it, HELL ya might learn something.

No, the SB dies have been proven to not work, and likewise custom dies. The dies crack before brass can be sized small enough at the base (smaller than new, due to spring back of the brass, particularly with hard ADG brass).

The mandrel dies seem to be hit and miss. Mostly miss with the ADG brass.

If the problem is that the new brass is expanding at that location, then it can be compressed at that location. I'm not sure that the problem is that solid brass is expanding, but the point directly in front of where the brass is solid. Even solid brass can be compressed with enough force (though that may be why your die cracked).

Fair enough. It was a question worth asking.

Small base dies are a poor solution, they just work the brass more which is never a good thing
This topic was done to death when Lapua started making brass for the 6 BR
THE answer was make the reamer larger at the base
THERE IS NOTHING NEW ABOUT THIS, IT HAS ALL BEEN SUCCESSFULLY DEALT WITH BEFORE

Not arguing about the solution to the problem, but this statement doesn’t make sense to me. If a SB die sizes the rear of the case to 0.004” under chamber diameter (assuming the die held up to this), how is that working the brass more than opening up the chamber, allowing the case to initially expand an extra 0.004” and then sizing it to 0.004” under the new chamber diameter using a standard FL die every firing afterward?

Yep. And while it's less known in the hunting world, it happened when the Sako 220R 'balloon head' case used for the PPC was phased out in favor of the 'PPC-USA spec case head dimension. A couple thousand Benchrest competitors had to change up their chambers. As most have multiple barrels, this was no small thing. But the benefits outweighed the small amount of effort needed.

And when Lapua released their excellent 308W brass, it was significantly larger at .200 ahead of the extractor groove than what was on the market at the time. Over a relatively short period of time, 'smiths needed to have their 308W reamers either pulled back or new ones made to work with the new brass dimensions. And every competitive shooter with the 308W....Palma, etc...either got new chambers or the back ends of their existing chambers opened up via polishing. Again...benefits trumped a bit of inconvience.

Savvy rifle builders like Charlie Sisk stay ahead of this from the start by understanding the reamer/brass/die relationship and spec'ing a reamer accordingly. Others like Butch Lambert take a different approach by getting two reamers and have complete control over sizing to their reamer. All of this starts with having a good relationship with the reamer maker and understanding tolerances and how to use that to their advantage.

Adults work through things like this by sharing info and working together for everyones benefit. Other types are only interested in being argumentative and divisive. Like always....do your homework and due diligence.

Good shootin' -Al

I think Charlie used a standard SAAMI reamer without problems. Above is his quote

Ordering anything from PT&G these days is akin to a restaurant we had in town, you could order anything you want, doesn't mean you're going to get it.

Kiff probably f'ck up and made it fat at the web......

Like Alice's Restaurant?

When ordering a reamer, I've found it best to to specify "Not less than....." on each dimension rather than working to the reamer makers tolerances, which is normally +/- of the print. On angle tolerances, it can be +/- 15 min., which can stack up pretty quickly, as you know. I've got a new 30BR-ish reamer due in a few weeks so spec'd.

When Stan and I did the 30 WolfPup, we sent a half dozen fired cases to the reamer maker with the instruction to make it not less than... our specified dimension at the shoulder and .200 ahead of the extractor groove. Worked great. Ditto on my 30BRX. Most reamer makers would extrapolate from the 6BRX print which would have proven to give issues up front, rather that at the back end as is more common. That'll have you chasing your tail.

BR shooters have known for decades that Queen nailed it with 'Fat Bottomed Girls'.

Stay warm buddy...we're 40 degrees here with 35-40 mph North winds today...headed your way. Sunday's tournament will be brisk and not for the soft and smooth types. -Al

Man, isn't THAT the friggin' truth. I had "custom" .257 Roberts reamer made a couple years ago that was a [bleep]-show. Should have been fairly simple, more or less minimal SAAMI body with a shorter throat so that a 100 grain accubond seated to 2.820 just kissed the lands. I provided them with a dummy so-loaded to work from. 9 months later I found out they'd forgotten to make my reamer. The found the order and made me a reamer only they failed to set up a throat section, it was case mouth to rifling, no gap. I took it back. They said fine, it'll be 6 more months. At that point I gave up and took a standard reamer which proved to be throated too long .. plan was to set the barrel back 2-3 threads on my Kimber Montana and cut a clean chamber to clean up a screwed up chamber Kimber wouldn't stand behind. Before all was done I basically had a rifle that was chambered for 117 grain round nose bullets and pointed bullets had nearly 1/3 inch of jump if loaded to max magazine length. Which is why I no longer own a Kimber Montana in .257. Someone got a nice action to build on.

Later on my gunsmith met an ex-employee of PTG. He said in that period, he was the only one making reamers, the other employees made other stuff, and probably he'd been the one who made my fubar reamer. Said he would not work for them again, Kiff, though nominally in charge, had passed off control to his GF and she was a [bleep] show in charge.

So will it be a 3.5PRC then?

Clickers are simple to eliminate. You just Dremel away the primary extraction angle and carry a mallet.

the video that i watched with Eric explaining the reason does make sense and i need a 6 BR die to make the case base smaller i see the need . i also asked a friend who just shot the nationals and said its all true for shooting better /tighter bench rest groups . Pete53