Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters so....what's the next WSM going to be?

Ken--

Yeah, Kevin Howard and I talked a long time about new WSM's last year, and we batted the heavy-bullets .22's around quite a bit. I suspect the problem is that demand would be extremely limited. The only part of the country that seems to even be aware of the advantages of heavy bullets in .224 centerfires is Texas--hence the .223 WSSM.

John

I think we have enough WSM's for a while. A .338 WSM will not sell as that bore diameter is just not popular. Bore diameters around .25" are really best for nothing as the bullets are kind of small for game but big for safe varminting as richocets are not good.

A large capacity .224 will not do much that a 6mm will. As Elmer is quoted as asking "What's it good for"

That said I am all for something interesting in rifles.

nothin' personal but the 257 bore is good for lots of stuff. the 6mm is another story but I do see some virture with it. my 257 experience included 250-3000, 257 roberts, 257 improved, 25-06 and 257 weatherby and I find a 257 bullet in 100 or 115 grain bullets (partitions are my choice) to be very effective deer killers. I have taken four bucks in the last three years with a 115 partition out of a 25-06, all were one shot kills. where the 2587 beats the 6mm, hands down, is in bullet weight range, 75-120 grn.

When Winchester was polling firearms writers at the last two SHOT Shows, I voted for the .25. Nothing else makes sense.

The 6.5 would never sell well, no matter how much we love it. the .277", .284" and .308" are covered. The .338" and .358" would be cool, but sales would be exceedingly limited.

The .257 WSM would be a very useful cartridge and I suspect it would be a great commercial success.

I get a kick out of the guys who need a .300 MegaBlaster to slay antelope and deer. Apparently, they want to buy field success by using the current wonder cartridge that launches a huge bullet and burns a hundred grains of powder. They have no time, of course, for range practice, but their logic tells them that the MegaBlaster will magically knock over their game.

Smaller cartridges are just plain easier to shoot and they improve out ability to harvest game animals. Yeah, you can go too small, but the .257 WSM would be a hellish cartridge, no matter how you look at it.

Steve

How much velocity would be gained from a 257 WSM or 257 SARUM when compared to a 25-284? Assume that the guns are the same, only the chambered cartridge (and bolt face) are different.

Jeff

the 25-284 is a great cartridge but seems to have lost its commercial appeal, at least the parent 284. I am a fan so dont get me wrong, it may have been ahead of its time. I would expect a 150 fps gain over the 25-284 with the 257 wsm. I like the wsm concept in 257 as I really like the 257 weatherby, just sold mine, and expect similar results from the 257 wsm with less powder.

I find I shoot better with less recoil and have gravitated to the 25-06 as it kills fine, the 257 roberts is even better in that regard, especially handloaded with a 115 partition. interesting, at least to me, the last deer I shot with my 257 rob was a doe, about 40 yards, in fading light. shot her in the boiler room, using a 6x42 fixed leupold, and saw the hit, recalled it like it was a photograph. it was like shooting a pd with a 223. don't get me wrong, shot my best ga deer last year with a 7mm mag in a brown precision stock and never felt the recoil but love those easy shootin' 257s.

Steve....................you are being logical again........ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

FWIW: Having had a little experience on the marketing side of the sporting goods business, I'd suggest the following.....

"It doesn't matter if it works better, as long as we can sell it"

With that said, I think DZ is closer to the truth than any of the other opinions on this subject. 6.5's .338's and .358's have all been somewhere between laggards and disasters from a sales standpoint.

So why a 257 wsm?

Well, the most logical of the dual purpose rounds, (IMO the "Bob") is moribund. The 257 Roy is mostly limited in sales to Weatherby fans (not that many). That leaves the 25-06, and the .243 as the sole "successful" offerings in the category. While the 25-06 does fairly well in die sales, it lags in new rifle sales. Whether a slightly hotter 25 cal would work in the market is a question mark. There are some factors that grant it some appeal.........(A) it's new, (B) it's a "magnum" that gets you some sales right there, and (C) the category is really dominated by the .243 with the 25-06 licking up some scraps among savvy shooters.

So......is it really needed?......god no! Is it really better?.....realistically no. Can it sell?.....it just might.

JimF

my 257 weatherby was a model 70 with douglas barrel. it really was a nice rifle to shoot but may be too much of a good thing in term of bore to powder capacity. the 257 may be close to the same but a bit less powder than the weatherby in a short case may be just the trick. my 25-06 is my "go to" rifle and a 257 wsm would be just more of a good thing. I really think the 257-308 would be a great round but it seems to have little support. fills the gap between the 243 and 7mm-08 (the 260/6.5 moniker is just not going to attrack too much american hunter attention). the boys at hornaday told me they developed the 120 hp in 257 for elk. I am not sure of that and have not tried the bullet but would make for great potential for the 257wsm. I suspect winchester would load the 117 silver ballistic tip lubricated bullet in the 257 wsm. I would handload the 115 partition.

257Bob:

Spot on IMO. The most logical use for a 25 cal is as a "dual purpose" round. There are better "deer" cartridges and better "varmint" cartridges. The 25 souper would be a good compromise if you were looking at it from the perspective of "practical" (Although the "Bob" is already there, and it's not going anywhere in sales)

One of the reasons that the bigger 25's have not been that hot on the market is that even a 25-06 is a bit wearing for 100 prone shots on PD's. A WSM 25 would be harder on the shooter by a small amount, but it has that marketing appeal of the "Magnum" moniker.

Practical or not, the 257 WSM might just sell.

JimF

.257 Bob

How about the .25/.300 win?

Brass would be cheap and high quality....Use .300 WM bushing dies with the appropriate smaller bushings...

Mike

If the 257WSM was between the 25-06 and 257 wby, or equal to the 257 wby, I would be interested in it. If it is closer to the 257 Bob, forget it.

AD:

The 25 WSM would about split the difference between the two if we go by case capacity. It might (maybe) shade toward the Roy a bit, but not much. Depending upon which axe you are grinding, the difference between the Roy and the std. 25-06 is 200-300 fps or so.

Trying to wedge another cartridge in there does not make a lot of ballistic sense, but that has never stopped marketing departments before. Besides there is the benefit of the short action to ballyhoo about.

Actually though, I wonder if the average Wal-Mart or discount store shopper (who buys about 70% of the rifles these days) even knows that such a thing as a short action exists (on the .243 he just bought).

ya think this horse is dead yet?

JimF

Funny this should come up. Yesterday I was perusing one of my favorite Rifle emporiums and came across a odd sight.

1 Box of brand new RCBS dies in 338 WSM, now here's the funny part, they were A series dies, the same as 30-06 and 308's.

When I inquired about them I was told that RCBS was so sure that Winchester was going to release a 338 WSM they added it to their regular, not wildcat line.

Sounds like Winchester hosed em'.

Regards,

Bob

already have the 25-300 wm in the 257 weatherby mag. really, too much powder for bore size, in my opinion.

it should be similar to the 257 wm in performance, just less powder. same concept as the 300wsm compared to the 300 wm.

my angle is this, the 257 weatherby is only available in weatherby rifles. they are fine but no better than the other choices out there, but they do cost a whole lot more. don't get me wrong, I am happy to see an american firm like weatherby thrive, but they simply are not for everyone. a cartridge like the wsm, can be chambered for most bolt actions and will eventually find their way to walmart. so... the average nimrod can buy the 257wsm in the action of his choice, at several price points, access cartridges for less than $30 per box (the cheap wm stuff starts at $30) and you still have a cartridge with a good, fundamental design that uses powder efficiently and does not require a super long throat that may affect accuracy. simply makes sense to me, even if it only fills the gap between the 25-06 and 257 wm.

I believe the 338wsm will see the light of day, just makes too much sense. what in the hell were they thinking when they introduce the 223 and 243 wssm? talk about a narrow market. neat stuff but definetly a specialty cartridge. the 243 may have been able to handle re regular wsm case. talk about marketing blunders, what were the folks at remington smoking when the devised the new guide gun? the writers are trying to be polite but that thing is a mess.

This is from the wildcats posting forum

Quickload shows

257Scramjet @ 3700fps, w/100grTSX, 28"barrel, 89gr H870, 56kpsi
257Scramjet @ 3850fps, w/90grLRB, 28" barrel, 79gr 7828, 56kpsi

257WSM @ 3700fps, w/100grTSX, 28"barrel, 72gr big boy, 56kpsi
257WSM @ 3900fps, w/90grLRB, 28" barrel, 70gr MRP, 56kpsi

The WSM potential hasn't been tapped yet.
I'm building both a 257 SJ imp and a 243 WSM. Both 28".
The 243WSM will exceed the 257SJ 90gr performance(slightly) straight across the board. But with a 95gr VLD!
The difference is in the bottlenecking of the charge mass. You'll see.
And with ~3.5" shorter action.

Have fun. let us know.

The Lazzeroni website shows the ScramJet at 3750fps with the 100gr Nosler BUT the pressure is listed at 54,700 CUP which is quite a bit higher than the "estimated" pressure you showed.....probably pretty close to 67,000 psi which is OK in the Lazzeroni action using the heavier Lazzeroni brass.

I would not, however, try to sustain this type of pressure using the thinner factory brass in either a Remington or Winchester action and a 'loader won't be able to approach that kind of velocity unless he's really walking the edge on stressing the action.