Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Brass is harder than pure copper, but the Hammer Bullets copper, which has a little sulfur alloyed (fire and brimstone),
ought to be hard enough for use as FN solid,
if only Hammer bullets could be convinced to do their first ever FN solid.

Maybe use the BBW#13 nose profile on top of a Parabolic Drag Reduction shaft.
The entire length of bullet might become "nose projection."
Crimp in second PDR trough for use in a no-throat .45-70 Gov't. chambering,
load longer for .458 B&M, even longer in .458 WinMag, heh-heh-heh ...





... or see if CEB will make the 400-gr Safari Solid with 0.750" nose projection,
and spread the bands equidistantly instead of the 3+1 with big gap ahead of base band.
Keep all the diameters same as on the latest "special order" CEB .458-caliber 400-grain brass FN ...

Hot off the press from MIB:



The McCourry Institute of Ballistics report on the .458 Winchester Magnum from 10/13/2023 is greatly appreciated,
as is the entire body of work at MIB.

20″ M70 barrel, Winchester brass, F215 primer, 78 grains of Benchmark

400-gr CEB brass FN solid with 0.650″ nose projection (not Lever Gun solid)
3.330″ COL

MV mean for two shots: 2399 fps
3 fps ES

Pressure mean for two shots: 64,200 psi
1200 psi ES

Since I used the larger case capacity Norma brass, and longer COL,
and am prepared to load to 65,000 psi like with the .416 Remington Magnum and .270 WCF,
I am quite happy with that.
Benchmark should ease any fears of pressure excursions in the equatorial and polar regions of the planet.
One planet, one rifle.
Ought to work on Mars too.

My brass lots compared for once-fired, not resized, 2.500"-length (mathematical correction):
W-W Super (post 1996) = 94.9 gr H2O gross
Latest Norma: 99.3 gr H2O = 4.4 grains bigger

94.9/99.3 = 95.57% volume for W-W compared to Norma

PV = nRT

If pressure with W-W = 68,500 psi
then pressure with Norma = 65,465 psi

Changing COL from 3.420" to 3.580" for longest COL with 404-gr Shock Hammer:

Loading 0.160" longer COL adds 6.7 gr H20 to net case capacity.

Norma brass plus 0.160" longer COL will increase net case capacity by 11.1 grains H2O, versus W-W at shorter COL.

Net case capacity with 0.52" seating depth in W-W brass = 73.2 gr H2O at 3.420" COL.
Net case capacity with 0.36" seating depth in Norma brass = 84.3 gr H2O at 3.580" COL.

PV = nRT

(68,500 psi) X (73.2/84.3) = 59,480 psi for my 2612 fps accuracy load in a 24-1/4" Pac-Nor barrel.

That is if Universal Gas Law can be applied like this. Heh-heh-heh.

I think it will take one big ass North American game animal shot lengthwise to stop that 325 BBW # 13 Safari Solid out of a 458 Winchester.

That Lehigh 380 Copper WFN is definitely no slouch, if it feeds in your 458 Winchester.

Sir Jerry is still alive, been busy planning his next safari, among other things.
Here is his 7mmRemMag FN Browning Medallion that has been fired three times
since it left Belgium in 1965.



He finally scoped it, maybe it is his Wife's rifle ?
We know Jerry has that rifle's twin (almost) in .458 WinMag:



We also know Sir Jerry favors a .458 WM+ Winchester Model 70 Classic in .458 WinMag:



Blesbok at 176 yards meets 404-gr Shock Hammer at 2518 fps MV:









Exit wound:



Maybe Sir Jerry will get his video clips on Youtube one day. Until then, we enjoy low resolution
pics of pics of pics of pics of pics.
But it is all good.

Very helpful info on the solids, and many thanks, Sir Ron. For the life of me, though, I can't figure out why a greater nose projection yields greater penetration. Is it because weight is shifted back with the full-caliber driving bands, and so gives a more stable spin?

Sir Bevan,

Though it has been empirically proven by MIB, I do not fully understand the science behind
longer nose projection increasing penetration,
for two CEB BBW#13 brass solids of same weight and impact velocity.
0.650" nose projection penetrates better than 0.460" nose projection,
quite well demonstrated with the two 325-grainers, Lever Gun Solid and Safari Solid,
ditto the 400-gr Lever Gun Solid (0.460" NP)
and the 400-gr "Special-Order" Safari Solid (0.650" NP).
I am thinking it has more to do with the drag being reduced by the optimum meplat size (67%) with a rounded bevel on edge of meplat,
13* hemi-angle of the truncated cone sides, and a long enough nose projection.
Maybe the nose projection is only involved as the bullet slows down and the "super-cavitation bubble" collapses and the sides of the bullet nose begin getting wetted?
A longer smooth nose would then reduce drag ... maybe ?

But it seems that the Lever Gun Solids were tested at "Marlin Velocities," 2000 fps and 1900 fps impacts,
while the Safari Solids were tested at "Bolt Action Velocities," in the 2200 to 2500 fps range, IIRC.

It would be interesting to see how the short NP and long NP of same weight CEB brass FN compare
when both impact at same velocity, lower velocity like 1800- to 2000-ish fps for both.
If only I could find that in the MIB lab data somewhere, I have missed it so far ...

For the record, two useful BENCHMARK LOADS:

That high velocity impact of the 325-gr/.458 Lever Gun Solid versus Safari Solid
is the link that I was missing.
The missing link that proves the theory of evolution.
Long Nose Projection Evolution.
Doc M is on the ball, or on the bullet, on call 24-7,
I asked and he provided.
Many thanks to the McCourry Institute of Ballistics.

Same impact velocity,

same caliber and weight of monometal brass FN solid,

same nose shape except length of parallel sides below the truncated cone portion

and

longer projection penetrates better than short projection:

Sir Jerry shot a cape buffalo at 31 yards.
It was a "high shoulder" hit in the tall grass, with 404-gr Shock Hammer at 2518 fps MV from .458 WM+ load.
Rifle barrel was 24" long, a JES rebore of a stainless .375 M70 Classic barrel on an M70 Classic action, walnut stocked,
with SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber.

The bullet exited the offside shoulder.
The dagga boy dropped dead right there.





Just before bullet impact at 31 yards:



Puff of dust (powdered dagga) comes off the bull at impact:





Down and stayed down:

Sir Ron, that same velocity data with the lever gun vs safari solid penetration is fascinating. Does this mean that if one turned down the front driving band on either bullet to the bullet nose diameter, one could instantly gain 6-8 inches of penetration? Seems almost like magic.

Seems also that this is another reason that the 458 WM+ is superior to the Lott: it allows a longer nose projection with these solids, yielding deeper penetration.

Sir Bevan,
Hard to understand that nose projection thing
but understand we must.
The 400-gr/.458 with 0.750" NP might
out-do the 400-gr/.458 with 0.650" NP ...
Hoping to find that with a lot of help from
MIB and CEB.

When CEB specifies a Nose Projection for the brass FN solids at their web site
that includes the width of the leading band (about 0.050") I do believe.
So a 0.650" NP has 0.600" smooth length from meplat to start of first band.
A 0.460" NP has 0.410" smooth length.
The 0.750" NP would be slick for the first 0.700", same as on the 450-gr/.458 Safari Solid.

Slick length + band width = Nose Projection.

The latest explanation of theory from Doc M (Michael McCourry) at MIB, quoted below:

A little more information, or theory, whichever.. concerning the Nose Projection.

As we see the comparison of the .458 caliber 325 gr bullets at over 2500 fps the longer nose projection really proves itself. I believe in the “Bubble” created by the big Flat Nose Solids………. The bubble is what the bullet rides in, and if the meplat is perfectly shaped and aligned the bullet rides for a long deep journey in its terminal state. Lots of things can disrupt the bubble during the ride, if the bullet is not perfectly designed.

Now, Nose Projection, one of the very last factors discovered. This can be two part, or considered in two ways, both leading to the same conclusion. The shorter nose projection makes the base of the bullet longer behind the nose projection. With this, I believe the bubble is collapsing on the base of the bullet, causing drag on the rear, perhaps collapsing just in front of the bottom band. While straight line penetration is not really effected, this drag slows the bullet faster and does not allow it to penetrate as deep. Now, the longer nose projection has a shorter bullet base, pushing the bubble out and around the base of the bullet, collapsing behind the base of the bullet, no drag at all…… deeper penetration.

Now, next step is very low velocity, lets just say less than 1800 fps for a starting point. If we take the 325 .600 longer nose projection and drop the velocity to close to 1600 fps, we find that it basically equals the depth of penetration of the short nose projection 325 at a much higher velocity of over 2500 fps…… We know that the higher velocity creates a bigger, longer lasting bubble, and with no drag on the longer nose projection the more velocity, deeper the penetration….



While the longer nose does penetrate some deeper at lower velocity, the amount of that is much less than the higher velocity, so velocity becomes a factor in nose projection as well, with both designs. However, less effect with the short nose projection from low to high velocity………



Now, lets look at some work done with the Short Nose projection 400 gr #13 Solid, Lever Solid………

Here we have a rather high velocity test at 2370 fps in the 1:14 twist rate 458 B&M. We see 40-41 inches penetration.



Here tested in 458 Super Short same 1:14 twist rate, velocity 1819 fps……… I don’t believe there is any substantial difference here, while the super short might be two inches more, I think that is more of a difference in test medium than anything else…….



And last a test in Sam’s double rifle at 1679 fps, unknown twist rate at test time……… and again, 40-41 inches of penetration.



Velocity has made no change in the 400 gr short Lever Nose Projection bullet. Perhaps ? the bubble is collapsing further up on the bullet base basically causing all to react the same? I really don’t know. Perhaps if we broke that 2500 fps mark with the bullet we would see some depth increases. We just don’t see it between 1679 and 2370…….

Now enter our latest new Solid, the 400 gr CEB #13 Safari, longer nose projection solid at 2300 fps……… Depth of penetration showing up with the longer nose projection, bubble collapsing behind the bullet, instead of causing drag on the base.



Now one might argue, or consider… why did SD not take over with the 400 Long Nose as opposed to nearly the same penetration with the 325 longer nose?????? Take a look at the VELOCITY……. The 325 started out at 275 fps faster than the 400……Still making SD the “Last” factor in solid penetration…….. Velocity trumped SD………

So velocity does aid penetration with the FN solid in the MIB test media,
but the NOSE PROJECTION must be factored in too, relative to the base length of the bullet.
More important than weight for caliber/SD.

I bet it works the same on bovine, hippo, rhino, giraffe, elephant, bears, walrus and for whales.

Here is hoping that CEB catalogs a regular offer of 400-gr/.458 CEB Safari Solid
with longer nose projection than the 400-gr/.458 CEB Lever Gun Solid.
Cheers.

Very, very good information. Thank you, Sir Ron. I think in the absence of the 400 grain long nose, I will try out some of those 325 Safari Solids. Since I have never shot a lighter weight bullet than 400 grains in my .458, and since velocity has been shown to be important with this bullet, which powder would be optimal for highest velocity at reasonable pressures?

Yes, but how much and with which bullet?
There were two different velocity penetration tests with the 325 grain Safari Solid on the same day.

Velocity Impact 2472 fps = 52"

Velocity Impact 2226 fps = 51 & 52"

An extra 246 fps did not provide much to any additional penetration in the test media.

Sir Bevan,
My first thought is: Use H4198 with the 325-gr Safari Solid.

Sir Bob and I have used up to 81 grains of H4198 with the 350-gr TSX getting to +2800 fps with that bullet
in the .458 WM+. I loaded mine to 3.440" COL.

Here are some low pressure loads with the 325-gr CEB Safari Solid in a 24"-barreled Winchester M70 .458 WM,
MIB data done by Doc M in 2013:

Standard-capacity brass, not Norma, most likely Winchester brass case,
Short COL, 3.340" or less
F-215 primer

65 gr H4198, 2 shots: 2413 fps and 2412 fps, ES 1 fps, mean velocity = 2412.5 fps, mean pressure = 47,805 psi
69 gr H4198, 2 shots: 2547 fps and 2546 fps, ES 1 fps, mean velocity = 2546.5 fps, mean pressure = 54,605 psi

You can do similarly with RL-7 grain-for-grain, possibly giving slightly higher velocity at slightly lower pressure,
but with greater lot-to-lot variability and temperature instability, greater ES and maybe not as accurate.

I would need only H4198 for the 325-gr Safari Solid,
starting with 70 grains and working up.

I tried AA-1680 with light bullets and it was wild in the .458 WM.
Save it for handgun loads.

I saw other examples where the 450-gr Safari Solid gave similar penetration at 2200-ish fps impact and 2400-ish impact.
I attributed that to higher order impact media getting more resistant at higher velocity, like real game animals.
Could be variability in the impact media beyond Doc M's control.
Overall we are seeing a picture of speed increasing the penetration,
but that doesn't mean I have stopped scratching my head
and wondering about statistical significance of 2, 3, or 4 shots.
Maybe one more bullet test is needed.
400-gr/.458 with .650" NP versus .750" NP
at low velocity and high velocity.
Heh-heh-heh.
It sure is hard looking the gift horse in the mouth, but eventually we must.

I believe there could be a velocity "wall" regarding resistance. But, is it unique to each bullet weight ? What single factor or combinations of factors in the design minimizes or maximizes it, or neutralizes it ? All beyond my level of investigative capabilities.

The .458, 325 grain Safari Solid is impressive to me. It is the poster child for sectional density is not the single holy grail factor for penetration. Perhaps that is why I am so fond of it. Plus as a hard cast flat point fan, I think it is one handsome bullet. The lever gun version certainly enhances the 45-70.

The limited-penetration solids as in the .458 North Fork Expanding Cup Point Solids in 325 & 350 grain would be pretty potent for anything in North America. The 350 grain in the 458 Winchester & Lott gets my vote for the In-The-Timber bullet.

The .458's pretty much have a bullet for all occasions.

Super-Penetrator Imaginary Bullet:



The CEB Safari Solid is about as perfect as yet to be found, according to the MIB tests,
but still questions remain about that asymptote ...