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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 28,162 Likes: 2 |
He is sending a target . It looks like a 1 inch square with thick black border .
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 390
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OP
Campfire Member
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 390 |
I'm curious how many of the people bashing our new rifles have actually handled and/or shot one?
I can tell you that personally I'm really proud of what our team has done so far with this project.
...
We have been extremely happy with the overall accuracy of the guns with 5/8"-3/4" 100yd groups being very common. I've shot several 1/2" groups with my personal .358 Win and Lehigh Defense bullets.
...
Some have asked "why a .358 Win"? Well a few of my hunting buddies and I are big .35cal fans and we figured since we were already making barrels for us, why not offer them to customers too. Mr. Wilson, Your guns look awesome and I want a .358 so bad I can taste it. As for the bashing - did you miss the Melvin Forbes shrine on the way in? It's right across from the Ronnie Barrett shrine. If your rifle doesn't fit in a very small, very precise box, these dudes are going to let you know that it doesn't fit in that very small, very precise box. You're not building guns exactly like Melvin did, and you're not building guns exactly like Barrett did. And, there's others who just can't afford your rifles (which is obviously your fault!). I love my 'Fire peeps but, fhuqk them! You have one of the best rifle formats EVER made. And, by all accounts, the chops to deliver an awesome product. Your rifles will be cult classics on here in no time. Mixed in with the jealousy, posturing and bullscheit is probably some constructive feedback. Listen or not, it's your rifle. Personally, that .358 is where it's at. What a weapon! Good luck to you, sir.
"One should not talk to a skilled hunter about what is forbidden by the Buddha."
- Hsiang-yen by way of Gary Snyder
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,472 Likes: 5
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,472 Likes: 5 |
Some people would complain even if the rifles were free. 🤦♂️
Medics bury their mistakes..
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,864
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2006
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The next calibers to be available will be for the model 20S: .223, .300 Blackout, 300 HAM'R and 350 Legend. Sounds great!
Thoroughly enjoying Alaska since 2001.
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Joined: Sep 2013
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2013
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Please twist the .223 right with a 1-8 or 1-7. Give us a little more room in the mag box then 2.25 too. 16” barrel. Good to hear on the locking safety, I’ll be in the market for one.
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Joined: Sep 2008
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2008
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well Melvins rifles do have a cult like following and I am sure thats why he managed to stay in business for so long and why some one bought the rights to his rifle, he also received the golden bullseye NRA pioneer award and Mr. Wilson even said he was a great gunsmith so i guess you are partly right
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,766 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,766 Likes: 1 |
...........
Barrel twist rates were picked because they shoot common hunting bullets the best. Sure a 1-10 twist .308 will shoot 175gr Sierra Matchkings better, but our 1-11.25 will shoot popular 150-165gr hunting bullets great. We've already made some 1-10 .308 barrels too.
.....
... This doesn't mean we can't step out of this box some if a customer wants to order a rifle direct at retail price. Things such as different barrel lengths, crowned muzzle (no wart), different finishes, etc could be done. I wish you and your company the best on this. I want it to be successful. I'm doubtful that the .308 is where most rate of twist complaints are focused. The 103 eldx and 108 eldm aren't an option for the .243 as produced with 1/10. I would guess most buyers would prefer 6 CM over .243 at this point but that's not an argument against the .243, just for the 6 CM. It's nice to read that you'll customize per a buyer's preference at retail price. The option to order exactly what a customer wants nullifies my complaints about chamberings or twists. Again, I wish you the best.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,567 Likes: 10
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,567 Likes: 10 |
Paper "test" targets,appeal to me less than none. Mainly because nobody is going to shoot or load as well as I. What does concern me is cartridge selection,RPM,throat geometry and COAL. Hint.
It's too bad that what could have been the pinnacle,is reduced to an also ran,due same. Hint.
Ronnie rung the bell,which is more than loud and clear. Hint..............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,976 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,976 Likes: 1 |
I'm curious how many of the people bashing our new rifles have actually handled and/or shot one?
I can tell you that personally I'm really proud of what our team has done so far with this project. Especially if you factor in that we only had one rifle we borrowed from Melvin and some crude paper prints and later a second loaner rifle from Richard Mann to go by. Another thing I want to mention is how impressive the quality of Melvin built rifles are after seeing the VERY limited resources he had. It proved to me that Melvin is one heck of a skilled gunsmith!!! While on the subject of Melvin, he and his wife Patty are two of the nicest people I've ever met, truly special people.
While we stayed pretty true to Melvin's original proven action design we have made some noticeable improvements.
ID of the receiver is wire EDM cut so we can hold tolerances to less than .001"
Bolt is fully machined out of bar stock on state of the art CNC equipment
The bolt handle is mechanically attached to the bolt instead of being brazed like Melvin did it which makes it stronger
The bolt knob is user interchangeable
The Bolt stop is beefier and fully machined from bar stock instead of a stamping, it also has a heavier stainless spring
Receiver, bolt and bolt handle are DLC coated by Armorlube and don't require any lube
The stainless 416R WC mfg barrel is Armor Tuff coated for corrosion resistance
Scope base screws are 8-40 thread
All standard SKU barrels are threaded 5/8-24 for muzzle devices or suppressors
We added hinged floorplate bottom metal that's fully machined out of 7075 T6 aluminum bar stock and hard anodized
AG composites is making us a awesome stock that's as light and strong as the labor intensive one Melvin made
The new Timney trigger locks the bolt down when on safety and has eliminated the potential safety issue of the original trigger
We've been able to keep the guns lightweight, before I added a suppressor and optic my 16.2" .308 weighed 4# 12.8oz
We have been extremely happy with the overall accuracy of the guns with 5/8"-3/4" 100yd groups being very common. I've shot several 1/2" groups with my personal .358 Win and Lehigh Defense bullets.
Barrel twist rates were picked because they shoot common hunting bullets the best. Sure a 1-10 twist .308 will shoot 175gr Sierra Matchkings better, but our 1-11.25 will shoot popular 150-165gr hunting bullets great. We've already made some 1-10 .308 barrels too.
Some have asked "why a .358 Win"? Well a few of my hunting buddies and I are big .35cal fans and we figured since we were already making barrels for us, why not offer them to customers too. Also, since we already make .338 Fed barrels for large frame ARs there is no reason we can't for a NULA if there is enough demand.
The next calibers to be available will be for the model 20S: .223, .300 Blackout, 300 HAM'R and 350 Legend
One last thing. Unlike Melvin's business model of dealing directly with the customer and "you dream it and we can build it", WC sells the majority of it's products through distributors like Sports South and key dealers. These customers want the # of SKUs to be kept to a minimum. This doesn't mean we can't step out of this box some if a customer wants to order a rifle direct at retail price. Things such as different barrel lengths, crowned muzzle (no wart), different finishes, etc could be done. It isn't so much people bashing your rifles, but rather not building a rifle to what people are looking for. Because of advancements in bullet technology, some of the old SAAMI dimensions and specifications are a bit long in the tooth. That is part of the reason for the success of some of the "new" cartridges like 6mm Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 PRC, 7mm PRC, and .300 PRC. The new cartridges are optimized for these new bullets, but they can breathe new life into the old rounds and offer performance on par with the new stuff. People want to shoot high-BC bullets. That means longer. That means the 1:9" .243 Winchester doesn't work for the guy wanting to shoot a 108 gr Hornady. The 7mm Remington Magnum is another cartridge that is rarely twisted faster than 1:9.25"; too slow for the highest BC bullets in the 175 gr. plus range. The old 1:10" .270 Winchester just isn't up to par with the 175 gr. bullets out now. From most shooters' experience, it is hard to have "too much twist" except in the most extreme cases. For instance, my 1:10" .308s have zero problems shooting 150 gr. hunting bullets, but my 1:12" barrels do struggle with 185 gr Juggernauts. It isn't a personal jab at you, your company, or the rifles you're producing. It is a matter of the modern shooter not being your target audience.
"Full time night woman? I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart. I packed me a squaw for ten year, Pilgrim. Cheyenne, she were, and the meanest bitch that ever balled for beads."
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,835 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,835 Likes: 6 |
I’m convinced a lot of the fussing about twist rates, mine included, is because of what people think they might do, someday, rather than are actually doing. Certainly a .308 is going to be at its best with bullets of modest weight simply due to limited powder capacity. Some others, OTOH, can make use of longer ones, and in my limited experience I’ve seen no downside to the 1-7 in my 6 CM when shooting bullets in the 95-100gr range, and I like the way it shoots heavies from 107-115gr. Still, I can’t imagine any serious limitations for general hunting use with the ones you’ve chosen, except maybe for those who routinely shoot far in high winds.
What you’re doing is IMO a real service, providing high-quality and ready to go hunting rifles without the custom drama. There’s a fine smith just down the road from me, but his wait times are incompatible with my life expectancy. The floorplate is a big improvement IMO, again on a hunting rifle. Looking forward to the chance to handle one someday.
Best of luck.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,567 Likes: 10
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,567 Likes: 10 |
Retard Twist Rates,simply slam doors of opportunity SHUT. Doubly so on all things threaded for a can and the ability to shoot subsonic fodder. Stabilization is a gross function of twist rate and lineal velocity conjoined,to real gross RPM. It is a Blue Haired Cat Lady Notion,that a 1-10" 308Win isn't as "forgiving" as one 11.25 or 12"(I shoot them all). Hint. Stone Age Myths don't bolster Sales and is yet another avenue where Ronnie knocked it out of The Park. The 243Win example,is more than a "touch" glaring,as this newest version of the theme is slated as 1-10",where the Fieldcrafts were 1-7". Hint. ![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/924/7ghPoo.jpg) ![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/923/gpxVHQ.jpg) It is a fascinating constant,that Manufacturers remain fhuqking CLUELESS to mechanics. Hint................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 62
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 62 |
I'm curious how many of the people bashing our new rifles have actually handled and/or shot one?
I can tell you that personally I'm really proud of what our team has done so far with this project. Especially if you factor in that we only had one rifle we borrowed from Melvin and some crude paper prints and later a second loaner rifle from Richard Mann to go by. Another thing I want to mention is how impressive the quality of Melvin built rifles are after seeing the VERY limited resources he had. It proved to me that Melvin is one heck of a skilled gunsmith!!! While on the subject of Melvin, he and his wife Patty are two of the nicest people I've ever met, truly special people.
While we stayed pretty true to Melvin's original proven action design we have made some noticeable improvements.
ID of the receiver is wire EDM cut so we can hold tolerances to less than .001"
Bolt is fully machined out of bar stock on state of the art CNC equipment
The bolt handle is mechanically attached to the bolt instead of being brazed like Melvin did it which makes it stronger
The bolt knob is user interchangeable
The Bolt stop is beefier and fully machined from bar stock instead of a stamping, it also has a heavier stainless spring
Receiver, bolt and bolt handle are DLC coated by Armorlube and don't require any lube
The stainless 416R WC mfg barrel is Armor Tuff coated for corrosion resistance
Scope base screws are 8-40 thread
All standard SKU barrels are threaded 5/8-24 for muzzle devices or suppressors
We added hinged floorplate bottom metal that's fully machined out of 7075 T6 aluminum bar stock and hard anodized
AG composites is making us a awesome stock that's as light and strong as the labor intensive one Melvin made
The new Timney trigger locks the bolt down when on safety and has eliminated the potential safety issue of the original trigger
We've been able to keep the guns lightweight, before I added a suppressor and optic my 16.2" .308 weighed 4# 12.8oz
We have been extremely happy with the overall accuracy of the guns with 5/8"-3/4" 100yd groups being very common. I've shot several 1/2" groups with my personal .358 Win and Lehigh Defense bullets.
Barrel twist rates were picked because they shoot common hunting bullets the best. Sure a 1-10 twist .308 will shoot 175gr Sierra Matchkings better, but our 1-11.25 will shoot popular 150-165gr hunting bullets great. We've already made some 1-10 .308 barrels too.
Some have asked "why a .358 Win"? Well a few of my hunting buddies and I are big .35cal fans and we figured since we were already making barrels for us, why not offer them to customers too. Also, since we already make .338 Fed barrels for large frame ARs there is no reason we can't for a NULA if there is enough demand.
The next calibers to be available will be for the model 20S: .223, .300 Blackout, 300 HAM'R and 350 Legend
One last thing. Unlike Melvin's business model of dealing directly with the customer and "you dream it and we can build it", WC sells the majority of it's products through distributors like Sports South and key dealers. These customers want the # of SKUs to be kept to a minimum. This doesn't mean we can't step out of this box some if a customer wants to order a rifle direct at retail price. Things such as different barrel lengths, crowned muzzle (no wart), different finishes, etc could be done. It isn't so much people bashing your rifles, but rather not building a rifle to what people are looking for. Because of advancements in bullet technology, some of the old SAAMI dimensions and specifications are a bit long in the tooth. That is part of the reason for the success of some of the "new" cartridges like 6mm Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 PRC, 7mm PRC, and .300 PRC. The new cartridges are optimized for these new bullets, but they can breathe new life into the old rounds and offer performance on par with the new stuff. People want to shoot high-BC bullets. That means longer. That means the 1:9" .243 Winchester doesn't work for the guy wanting to shoot a 108 gr Hornady. The 7mm Remington Magnum is another cartridge that is rarely twisted faster than 1:9.25"; too slow for the highest BC bullets in the 175 gr. plus range. The old 1:10" .270 Winchester just isn't up to par with the 175 gr. bullets out now. From most shooters' experience, it is hard to have "too much twist" except in the most extreme cases. For instance, my 1:10" .308s have zero problems shooting 150 gr. hunting bullets, but my 1:12" barrels do struggle with 185 gr Juggernauts. It isn't a personal jab at you, your company, or the rifles you're producing. It is a matter of the modern shooter not being your target audience. Drop_Point, You're points are valad and noted. Changing twist rates is no big deal at our barrel shop.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,430
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,430 |
Bill,
I’m a pretty strong advocate for your products. Drop_point’s commentary is spot on.
A fast twist 6mm Creedmoor or a 7mm PRC would garner some attention.
As much as I like the 308, reality is, as my local smith said to me the other day while building another custom PRS rifle, “The 6.5 Creedmoor did to the 308 what the 308 did to the 30-06. And the 6mm Creedmoor is doing that to the 243 Win.”
All of the Creedmoors, 6.5, 6 and 22, are worth a look, in my opinion.
Tikka just came out with a 1 in 8 twist 243 Win, and I’m scratching my head over why it’s not a 6mm Creedmoor?
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General
John Stark.
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 28,162 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 28,162 Likes: 2 |
Order one twisted how you want.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,220 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,220 Likes: 3 |
Goat Fhuqks,due RPM alone. Shame. Hint.............. I wouldn't say it like you did but a little faster twist would be good. Priced out of my income range anyway. Pretty rifles. kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
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Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,976 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,976 Likes: 1 |
I'm curious how many of the people bashing our new rifles have actually handled and/or shot one?
I can tell you that personally I'm really proud of what our team has done so far with this project. Especially if you factor in that we only had one rifle we borrowed from Melvin and some crude paper prints and later a second loaner rifle from Richard Mann to go by. Another thing I want to mention is how impressive the quality of Melvin built rifles are after seeing the VERY limited resources he had. It proved to me that Melvin is one heck of a skilled gunsmith!!! While on the subject of Melvin, he and his wife Patty are two of the nicest people I've ever met, truly special people.
While we stayed pretty true to Melvin's original proven action design we have made some noticeable improvements.
ID of the receiver is wire EDM cut so we can hold tolerances to less than .001"
Bolt is fully machined out of bar stock on state of the art CNC equipment
The bolt handle is mechanically attached to the bolt instead of being brazed like Melvin did it which makes it stronger
The bolt knob is user interchangeable
The Bolt stop is beefier and fully machined from bar stock instead of a stamping, it also has a heavier stainless spring
Receiver, bolt and bolt handle are DLC coated by Armorlube and don't require any lube
The stainless 416R WC mfg barrel is Armor Tuff coated for corrosion resistance
Scope base screws are 8-40 thread
All standard SKU barrels are threaded 5/8-24 for muzzle devices or suppressors
We added hinged floorplate bottom metal that's fully machined out of 7075 T6 aluminum bar stock and hard anodized
AG composites is making us a awesome stock that's as light and strong as the labor intensive one Melvin made
The new Timney trigger locks the bolt down when on safety and has eliminated the potential safety issue of the original trigger
We've been able to keep the guns lightweight, before I added a suppressor and optic my 16.2" .308 weighed 4# 12.8oz
We have been extremely happy with the overall accuracy of the guns with 5/8"-3/4" 100yd groups being very common. I've shot several 1/2" groups with my personal .358 Win and Lehigh Defense bullets.
Barrel twist rates were picked because they shoot common hunting bullets the best. Sure a 1-10 twist .308 will shoot 175gr Sierra Matchkings better, but our 1-11.25 will shoot popular 150-165gr hunting bullets great. We've already made some 1-10 .308 barrels too.
Some have asked "why a .358 Win"? Well a few of my hunting buddies and I are big .35cal fans and we figured since we were already making barrels for us, why not offer them to customers too. Also, since we already make .338 Fed barrels for large frame ARs there is no reason we can't for a NULA if there is enough demand.
The next calibers to be available will be for the model 20S: .223, .300 Blackout, 300 HAM'R and 350 Legend
One last thing. Unlike Melvin's business model of dealing directly with the customer and "you dream it and we can build it", WC sells the majority of it's products through distributors like Sports South and key dealers. These customers want the # of SKUs to be kept to a minimum. This doesn't mean we can't step out of this box some if a customer wants to order a rifle direct at retail price. Things such as different barrel lengths, crowned muzzle (no wart), different finishes, etc could be done. It isn't so much people bashing your rifles, but rather not building a rifle to what people are looking for. Because of advancements in bullet technology, some of the old SAAMI dimensions and specifications are a bit long in the tooth. That is part of the reason for the success of some of the "new" cartridges like 6mm Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 PRC, 7mm PRC, and .300 PRC. The new cartridges are optimized for these new bullets, but they can breathe new life into the old rounds and offer performance on par with the new stuff. People want to shoot high-BC bullets. That means longer. That means the 1:9" .243 Winchester doesn't work for the guy wanting to shoot a 108 gr Hornady. The 7mm Remington Magnum is another cartridge that is rarely twisted faster than 1:9.25"; too slow for the highest BC bullets in the 175 gr. plus range. The old 1:10" .270 Winchester just isn't up to par with the 175 gr. bullets out now. From most shooters' experience, it is hard to have "too much twist" except in the most extreme cases. For instance, my 1:10" .308s have zero problems shooting 150 gr. hunting bullets, but my 1:12" barrels do struggle with 185 gr Juggernauts. It isn't a personal jab at you, your company, or the rifles you're producing. It is a matter of the modern shooter not being your target audience. Drop_Point, You're points are valad and noted. Changing twist rates is no big deal at our barrel shop. I am glad to hear there is some flexibility there. I've got a stack of your Bullet Proof line in my pistols and like your Sig grip modules quite a bit.
"Full time night woman? I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart. I packed me a squaw for ten year, Pilgrim. Cheyenne, she were, and the meanest bitch that ever balled for beads."
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,567 Likes: 10
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 58,567 Likes: 10 |
Goat Fhuqks,due RPM alone. Shame. Hint.............. I wouldn't say it like you did but a little faster twist would be good. Priced out of my income range anyway. Pretty rifles. kwg I think it helps more than a bunch,to paint a purty picture. Hint(grin) As the 243Win chambering alone goes,I shoot it in 7,8,9 and 10" RPM's. I'll greedily take 8" as a minimum twist rate. Hint. ![[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/922/q8rJFc.jpg) Bullets ALWAYS matter wayyyyyyyyyy more than headstamps. Too bad,most Manufacturers are fhuqking CLUELESS. Hint.................
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,936
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,936 |
I don't fret much over twist rates but I do care about a light rifle. But these are out of my price range anyway. I could never afford the NULA either which is why I use the Colt Light Rifle
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,029 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,029 Likes: 3 |
Goat Fhuqks,due RPM alone. Shame. Hint.............. I wouldn't say it like you did but a little faster twist would be good. Priced out of my income range anyway. Pretty rifles. kwg Only a stoned, drunk, illiterate cajun would say it like he did. Johnny one note. Fast twist, big numbers, long oal. All the really big "virtual" numbers for the small virtueless virtual hunter
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Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,252
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,252 |
223, 7 twist
Mag box 2.55” COAL
Needs to take 5 down.
Stainless or nitride.
Make it 2500$less.
Can’t say you’ll sell a ton, but I’m in for 2-3
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