Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Thank you Sir Ron for the well wishes. Otto used the Maximum case at 1.6".John Linebaugh loaded the ammo for Otto. My revolver in the picture was built by Hamilton Bowen in 475 Linebaugh. That hunt was 1988

Sir Larry,
Clinton era ammo saboteurs too, you say ?
Handloads only then, when POTUS is a Democrap.

Sir John,
Oops. Makes sense you had a Hamilton Bowen firstie .475 Linebaugh.
If it was a John Linebaugh first-off it would be in a museum.
Please excuse my brain fart.
Blue LOCTITE on .475 Linebaugh for TBSH revolver ammo crimping is what I am thinking.
Maybe red LOCTITE on any remanufacturing of Democrap era .458 WinMag ammo.

I am not able to find any H4198 powder to use with the 325 grain CEB safari solid in 458 Win. Would IMR4198 be a good alternative, or is there a better option for this application?

IMR 4198 is perfect

I have some trial loads of 458 Winchester with the 325 grain CEB Safari Solid loaded with Reloader 7.
At the rate that I and winter are progressing, it might be spring before I get them to the range. I have had them loaded since this past spring.

Sir Ron,
Those Remington Safari loads are quite possibly clinton-era loads.

Sir Larry,
Clinton era sabotage is definitely suspected.

At Sir Bevan's powder choice, you and Sir John got the two alternatives I would suggest first, IMR-4198 and RL-7.
I used those early on in .458 WinMag with 400-grainers, and IMR-3031 with 500-grainers.
Now prefer the H4198 and BENCHMARK replacements respectively for IMR-4198 and IMR-3031.
With a bullet as light as 325-grainer,
RL-7 might be the cat's meow,
awaiting results from Sir Larry.

I always had better results, for one reason or another with H4198,
even with bullets as light as the 250-grainer (GMX) and 300-grainer (TSX).
H4198 is a tad slower, right next to IMR-4198, and two tads slower than RL-7,
but more temperature stable and less lot-to-lot variation,
and responds better to mild compression if you want to go faster, IMHO.

H332 is a tad slower than, right next to, H4198 but has same excellent qualities of the EXTREME line from Hodgdon.
And don't forget BENCHMARK,
and H4895.
From 60% to 110% LR/net fill, H4895 will do it all, right on up to 2600 fps with 400-grainer in a 24" barreled .458 WM+ handload.
Might work well for fair to middlin' loads with the 325-grainer if you compress it some.
If you want faster MV, use IMR-4198 or RL-7 until you can find the H4198.

And then there is all that new stuff, bunch of ball powders, many touted with temperature stability,
many having copper-fouling-eliminator additives, etc.
All being better at packing a greater weight of powder in a given space,
Especially those with flattened balls or a mix of round and flattened balls.
Any powder good for the .223/5.56 is good for the .458 WinMag.
What's good for General Bull Moose is good for the USA, that kind of thing.

And great news has come from Sir Larry that there is a new Ammo Supplier to compete with Buffalo Bore.
Boy howdy do they !

Aria Ballistic Engineering: "ABE Ammo" is hopefully honest as Abe.
They have a physical address, telephone number and email on contact page.

https://www.ariaballisticengineering.org/

Using Hammer, CEB, TSX and hardcast/gas-checked bullets that are loaded for the .458 WinMag is of most interest.
Whether they are using a SAAMI MAP or a CIP MAP, well they are a USA maker.
They are also loading same bullets in the .458 Lott at almost .458 WM+ levels.
I think they must have been reading here and at the Hammer Bullets forum.

The 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer was conceived at this 24hr Campfire thread and birthed at Hammer Bullets in 2022.
I made the first order for those bullets on January 18, 2022, had them in hand six days later.
Already it has taken the world by storm.
No mere component bullet now.
It is in commercially loaded ammo by ABE.
The 404-gr Shock Hammer and CEB 450-gr Safari Solids may not be pictured below,
but can be found in the listings for each cartridge.
This suggests that the website photos were taken before those two were added to the offerings.
CEB Raptors, Hawk bullets, and the ELR bullets by CEB and Hammer may also be found in various cartridge offerrings.
Lots of rifle, handgun and shotgun offerings. Whew !!!

404-gr Shock Hammer MV & KE from the selected loads below, as listed by ABE:


https://www.ariaballisticengineering.org/product/458-socom



.458 SOCOM: barrel length unspecified, likely 16-16.5": 1850 fps/3069 ft-lbs.


https://www.ariaballisticengineering.org/product/458-hamr



.458 Ham'r: barrel length unspecified, likely 16-16.5": 2000 fps/3587 ft-lbs.


https://www.ariaballisticengineering.org/product/45-70-government-p



.45-70 Government (+P) for modern rifle: 18" barrel: 2100 fps/3955 ft-lbs.


https://www.ariaballisticengineering.org/product/458-winchester-magnum



.458 Winchester Magnum (SAAMI COL and MAP?) 22.5" barrel: 2550 fps/5832 ft-lbs.


https://www.ariaballisticengineering.org/product/458-lott



.458 Lott (SAAMI COL and MAP?) 23" barrel: 2600 fps/6063 ft-lbs.


https://www.ariaballisticengineering.org/product/460-weatherby-magnum
https://www.ariaballisticengineering.org/product/460-weatherby-magnum-elr



.460 Weatherby Magnum (CIP COL and MAP) 23.5" barrel: 2700 fps/6473 ft-lbs

Once again we see hints at the HORNADY lab data that drove Ross Seyfried insane,
resulting in his "denial" of the .458 Winchester Magnum:
If the .458 WinMag and the .458 Lott are kept to SAAMI standards,
the .458 Lott has only a 50 fps MV advantage over the .458 WinMag with a 500 grain bullet.
2250 fps MV versus 2200 fps MV respectively.
That is with a longer COL and higher chamber pressure for the .458 Lott.
If we allow the .458 WinMag same COL and MAP as the .458 Lott it
becomes the .458 WM+ and leaves the .458 Lott far behind in its dust.
(Where is the kissmyazz emoji when you need one ?)

In the ABE example here, the .458 Lott got a half-inch longer barrel,
and the results were the same MV difference, only 50 fps.
This suggests that the .458 Lott advantage over the .458 WinMag is miniscule, at SAAMI standards restrictions,
and it decreases as bullet weight decreases.
This is something that we have long know in regards to comparing the .375 Weatherby Magnum to the .375 H&H, etc.
Heh-heh-heh.

Is it true ?
Sir Larry has suggested it should be verified by home testing.
I will get around to it, dissect a round and chronograph
for .458 WinMag, 45-70 Gov't., .458 SOCOM
and even the 450 Bushmaster of pistol caliber .45 if CEB or Hammer loaded:



Powder charge appearance and weight and corrected MV for a barrel of what length ?

I have yet to shoot that Norma .458 WinMag ammo with 500-gr Swift A-Frame.
Maybe I will get to it when checking the deer rifle zero this week, same rifle,
but the deer bullet is the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
Deer season and honey-do lists sometimes interfere with Bubba Science.

Sir Ron, thanks for posting this. I was totally unaware of this company until I stumbled upon their website.

I was pleasantly surprised to see their 404 Shock Hammer loads. Impressive velocities. I would still be impressed if they were 100 fps less, and consider them top-dog in the world of factory loads.

They do have many different cartridges listed with top tier bullets at very good velocity.

Reminder to the faithful here; Truth is a mighty Oak, slow growing but deep roots that hold against the wind. Lies grow like wildfire but are swept away by their own wind. Sir Ron’s planting of the 458wm truth took some time to spread out but is holding well and we can enjoy the shade it provides while resting from the heat of the lies. All is well.
F01

Amen!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

If these folks' "in house powder blends" give consistent velocity and psi in the vicinity of SAAMI MAP, their 458 Winchester 404 Shock Hammer load is spectacular.
22.5" barrel = 2550 fps
I would have a big smile at 100 fps less than advertised.

"Norma Swift" factory load with 500-gr A-Frame was chronographed.
I sure am glad I never bought a Lab Radar.
Excuse was that I had not destroyed all my optical chrono's yet.
Now when that happens I am going for a Garmin Xero.
Speaking of cash, at five bucks per pop, one round dissected and 9 rounds fired is fifty bucks.
I blame the Swift A-Frame for not living up to 2116 fps MV.
They are either slower or develop higher pressure if velocity is achieved.
Apparently the .457" diameter of this bullet does not get the MV advertised.
Heck of a good bullet otherwise.
G1 BC = 0.361



That was shot with the Ruger1 No. 1, Miss Daisy, 24", 1:14" twist. 50 yard target.
She is not slow.
Nine shots of Swift produced some copper fouling of note.
Had to sight my deer rifle with the Hammer bullet today too.
Used Freki for that so as not to mix the fouling.



The 2600 fps long COL loads are fun in Freki too, seems to be her accuracy node with the 404-gr Shock Hammer.

Sir Bob is the Chaplain of the Square Table.
Looks like we have an Assistant Chaplain in Sir Dennis.

It's Alive !



Yes, it will allow 2 bands in and 2 bands out of the case for 3.34″ COL .458 WinMag with 2.490″ brass (satisfying SAAMI homologation),
and 3 bands in and 1 band out of the case for 2.99″ COL .458 B&M with 2.240″ brass length (as per MIB homologation).

Let the brass go to 2.500″ long in the .458 WinMag and it becomes a .458 WM+ load with 3.35″ COL, heh-heh-heh.

With the belt and suspenders crimp a 3.45″ COL is possible now in the .458 WM+.
That adds 4.166 grains of water to net case capacity, versus 3.35″ COL.
That is about the same increase in net capacity as realized in using the Norma brass
instead of the other common brass for the .458 WinMag, both at same seating depth.
Sadly, other common brass for the .458 WinMag is not so common lately.
Trim the .458 Lott to 2.5" length whenever possible.
That is like asking the space aliens to eat the Canadians first.
It's a joke, Sir Bob. We all love Canadians here, except for Fidel Castro's son.

That extra 0.100″ of bore-riding nose projection on the 0.700″ version
also will add to effective throat length versus the 0.600″ bore-rider nose.
More effective case capacity or pressure let-off than with the 0.600″ version when both are loaded to same COL.
Might have to use more than 78.0 grains of Benchmark to get it to 2500 fps at 3.350″ COL in 24″ barrel.
Accuracy of the longer-nosed bullet will hopefully be as good as with the shorter-nosed bullet.
To be determined.

Quote from Sir Michael of McCourry Institute of Ballistics in South Carolina,
Doc M at MIB:

There are many good reasons to be in possession of properly designed Solids for every endeavor in the field, and there are NO good reasons for not having them.

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom."

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com

Sir Ron,
I definitely like the nose projection & band location on this 400. It will be most interesting, if testing is conducted to see the penetration comparison compared to the shorter nose. I am presently sitting out on the 400's.

The 325's will more than handle my wants. And of course not to forget the 380 Lehigh. The 380 with the big meplat might turn into my closer range general use bullet for my local area.

Very nice work Gentlemen of the Four Five Eight Round Table, 404 Hammer coupled with 400gr CEB flat nosed solids will indeed do it all, and do it to 400 yards if a man knows his drops. i also agree with Doc M at MIB, i love solids and have loads worked up for them in rifles from 9.3x62 to 577 Nitro Express.

We are not afforede the luxury of asking ANY game animal to pose for the perfect shot angle!

ABE Inc is a great outfit, as a matter of fact, a 'Smith there, a nerd lab boy that hangs out down at Ratheon in Sherman, and a Baptist minister out of Iowa built my 500 Linebaugh single action revolver ; ] a hell of a mind bending collaboration.

Sir Larry,
Understood on all that. Got a feeling that MIB will do the test.
Sorry about calling you out as Assistant Chaplain to the Square Table, meant Sir Dennis, of course.
Just a typo brainswoggle due to all the praying we are doing for your first cousin Sir John.
He is not out of the woods yet.
We pray for him to be returned to good health.
Amen.

If we have a Chaplain and Assistant Chaplain,
seems I ought to volunteer as Surgeon of the Square Table,
sort like of my "no-duties" office at the local chapter of the SAR.