There are not many cases in all of written ancient history where we have multiple separate and independent written accounts of the same event, or series of events. We have virtually no multiple separate and independent written accounts of the same events in all of written ancient history. The life of Jesus stands out all by itself in that regard. The events of His life were extremely important to His 1st century followers. “Many” people attempted to write down an orderly account of the life of Jesus, not just a few, but “many”.
The fact that we have 4 ancient separate and independent manuscripts that document the life of Jesus is unique. We don’t have references to these documents, we have actual copies of these documents. In nearly all of written ancient history, we only have references to documents that we no longer have. With nearly all of written ancient history there are no actual copies, it’s just authors who reference documents who reference documents, and the documents…and actual copies of those documents…are no longer with us because they just disintegrated over time.
And yet we have 4 different separate and independent accounts of the life of Jesus, and the reason we have those historical accounts are not because of what He taught, and not because that He was arrested, and not because He was crucified ~ the reason all of these people documented the life of Jesus is because He rose from the dead. And these historical accounts were considered valuable and reliable and sacred and inspired. They were considered scripture by the early ekklesia of Jesus.
i think that we all should go to the Sumerian religion. Sumerian is the first written language so you have to believe that religion is true because it was already written.
if you believe in your Christian God, that's great. you do you. Shinto, Native American, Hinduism...doesn't matter. if you are an atheist, i don't mind. you do you is my motto when it comes to religion.
The Egyptian gods are worth a look at too. Take Osiris for example - he pulled off the resurrection stunt millenia before it was claimed by Jesus' writers, and he even got his wife pregnant post resurrection. What a champ! Jesus never got anyone pregnant - maybe he was a eunuch or something?
i looked at the Egyptians' years ago and it wasn't for me. the Norse religion was almost the one, but i decided on the Animalistic religion with some Shinto thrown in. i'm not big on organized religion, much like Joshua/ Yeshua/ Jesus did.
"Russia sucks." ---- Me, US Army (retired) 12B & 51B
Russian Admiral said, after the Moskva sank, "we have the world's worst navy but we aren't as bad as our army".
In the Genesis story of the Noah it is very clear where the water came from and it fits nicely with the first paragraphs of the story of creation. The mountains were not flattened in the bible as you proposed earlier. "Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered" Yep, the mountains were still there and they were all covered.
Would you mind telling us where the Bible says the water came from? Then I will try to respond, since I believe it to be Truth.
I watched over two minutes of your video. It certainly has some interesting interpretations and seems to strive to distort what the Bible actually teaches. I have no idea how many times I have read the Bible, but certainly didn't get the idea the writers believed it was flat. I always thought the foundations of the earth was gravity. The Bible clearly claims the earth is a sphere and God hunt the north on nothing. It talks about the circle and boundary where light meets darkness.
But, you still didn't answer my question about where you claim the water came from.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
The construct of models to help us better understand how things work are very valuable…. We have naturalistic models…..societal models…..economic models and of models for astronomy.
But, models are not fixed, immutable concepts.
As we gain more knowledge….new information, a model is subject to change….as it should. Such as the “dark matter” descriptions.
In the link below is an example of a an astronomic model undergoing change…
Oddly how astronomers Big Bang theory is changing, even though the moniker “Big Bang” remains.
Also note the emergence of the “everywhere, all at once” concept being discussed….interesting stuff.
HOWEVER….. there is a great danger in developing models…. A “model” is only a model. It may not be totally accurate….the danger comes when we begin to …..believe…. That the model is a totally accurate representation of the true action, circumstance or interpretation of some set of facts or events.
The model may be accurate for what we can see today, bit as new information/facts are presented, the model must change.
So…don’t get to carried away…or… “married up” with some way of thinking or model that you have grown comfortable with…..
It’s going to change….
Cool, so you know what a model is.
However, if you remember my original question or request, it was for bible literalist (people who take every word the bible to be literally true) to explain the biblical model of the cosmos to me. A bible literalist would take those words that describe the formation and structure of the biblical account of the to be true. In other words, the model of the universe that is in the bible is the way it actually is. I'm not creating a straw man here, I've met many that claim to actually believe this.
You responded, so I assumed you were taking the stories of Genesis to actually be true.
In the Genesis story of the Noah it is very clear where the water came from and it fits nicely with the first paragraphs of the story of creation. The mountains were not flattened in the bible as you proposed earlier. "Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered" Yep, the mountains were still there and they were all covered.
You seem to be completely unaware of where the bible says the water came from.
This is an issue with so many Christians. They profess a belief in the Bible. They will argue that it is true. Yet they don't even know what the [bleep] the Bible actually says. This would just be a moderately annoying, except they are always try to inflict there personal beliefs on others and using the Bible to justify it.
Interesting response, but you are misstating what I said and then go on to respond with irrelevant comments .... This is an issue so many who participate in these "internet exchanges."
So....in addition to understanding "models," I also understand the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. You seem to respond to what "you wish I had said" instead of "what I actually said."
For example... I never said the "the mountains were flattened... or leveled." You added that ...."eisegesis".....seemingly thinking it made your response more ... what?... more clever"?
Another example... you commented that..."You seem to be completely unaware or where the Bible says the water came from." Nope, not true at all. I never addressed that in my posts. You asked where did the water come from and where did it go. I simply replied in a statement that there was a sufficiency of water.. ....before the flood.... and there was... and that the water did not somehow "go." It is still here.
Note that you took this comment from me and concluded that I..... "seem to be completely unaware of where the bible says it came from." Nope, you're wrong, just more erroneous fluff you just made up.
So, here is legit issue..."with so many (choose your term).." ..... they possess and spirit of antagonism to the Bible and Christians, so they misinterpret the Bible and also attach "their own meanings" to both the Bible and those who speak of it.
So... "eisegesis and exegesis" is relevant.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
I watched over two minutes of your video. It certainly has some interesting interpretations and seems to strive to distort what the Bible actually teaches. I have no idea how many times I have read the Bible, but certainly didn't get the idea the writers believed it was flat. I always thought the foundations of the earth was gravity. The Bible clearly claims the earth is a sphere and God hunt the north on nothing. It talks about the circle and boundary where light meets darkness.
But, you still didn't answer my question about where you claim the water came from.
Typical Christian. I take the time to find a short 6 minute video* that not only answers your question, but explains the cosmological view of the writers of Genesis and picks out a few of the biblical passages that back it up, and you can’t make it past 2 minutes. This is why Christians are considered intellectually lazy morons.
*I skipped over much longer video lectures and essays explaining it in more and better detail. But I thought, this seems new to this guy should go with something short and sweet, even if not as in-depth as I would like.
The construct of models to help us better understand how things work are very valuable…. We have naturalistic models…..societal models…..economic models and of models for astronomy.
But, models are not fixed, immutable concepts.
As we gain more knowledge….new information, a model is subject to change….as it should. Such as the “dark matter” descriptions.
In the link below is an example of a an astronomic model undergoing change…
Oddly how astronomers Big Bang theory is changing, even though the moniker “Big Bang” remains.
Also note the emergence of the “everywhere, all at once” concept being discussed….interesting stuff.
HOWEVER….. there is a great danger in developing models…. A “model” is only a model. It may not be totally accurate….the danger comes when we begin to …..believe…. That the model is a totally accurate representation of the true action, circumstance or interpretation of some set of facts or events.
The model may be accurate for what we can see today, bit as new information/facts are presented, the model must change.
So…don’t get to carried away…or… “married up” with some way of thinking or model that you have grown comfortable with…..
It’s going to change….
Cool, so you know what a model is.
However, if you remember my original question or request, it was for bible literalist (people who take every word the bible to be literally true) to explain the biblical model of the cosmos to me. A bible literalist would take those words that describe the formation and structure of the biblical account of the to be true. In other words, the model of the universe that is in the bible is the way it actually is. I'm not creating a straw man here, I've met many that claim to actually believe this.
You responded, so I assumed you were taking the stories of Genesis to actually be true.
In the Genesis story of the Noah it is very clear where the water came from and it fits nicely with the first paragraphs of the story of creation. The mountains were not flattened in the bible as you proposed earlier. "Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered" Yep, the mountains were still there and they were all covered.
You seem to be completely unaware of where the bible says the water came from.
This is an issue with so many Christians. They profess a belief in the Bible. They will argue that it is true. Yet they don't even know what the [bleep] the Bible actually says. This would just be a moderately annoying, except they are always try to inflict there personal beliefs on others and using the Bible to justify it.
Interesting response, but you are misstating what I said and then go on to respond with irrelevant comments .... This is an issue so many who participate in these "internet exchanges."
So....in addition to understanding "models," I also understand the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. You seem to respond to what "you wish I had said" instead of "what I actually said."
For example... I never said the "the mountains were flattened... or leveled." You added that ...."eisegesis".....seemingly thinking it made your response more ... what?... more clever"?
Another example... you commented that..."You seem to be completely unaware or where the Bible says the water came from." Nope, not true at all. I never addressed that in my posts. You asked where did the water come from and where did it go. I simply replied in a statement that there was a sufficiency of water.. ....before the flood.... and there was... and that the water did not somehow "go." It is still here.
Note that you took this comment from me and concluded that I..... "seem to be completely unaware of where the bible says it came from." Nope, you're wrong, just more erroneous fluff you just made up.
So, here is legit issue..."with so many (choose your term).." ..... they possess and spirit of antagonism to the Bible and Christians, so they misinterpret the Bible and also attach "their own meanings" to both the Bible and those who speak of it.
So... "eisegesis and exegesis" is relevant.
Yes, eisegesis and exegesis is important. Try using those concepts when reading the Bible and you’ll be more likely to understand it.
I watched over two minutes of your video. It certainly has some interesting interpretations and seems to strive to distort what the Bible actually teaches. I have no idea how many times I have read the Bible, but certainly didn't get the idea the writers believed it was flat. I always thought the foundations of the earth was gravity. The Bible clearly claims the earth is a sphere and God hunt the north on nothing. It talks about the circle and boundary where light meets darkness.
But, you still didn't answer my question about where you claim the water came from.
Typical Christian. I take the time to find a short 6 minute video* that not only answers your question, but explains the cosmological view of the writers of Genesis and picks out a few of the biblical passages that back it up, and you can’t make it past 2 minutes. This is why Christians are considered intellectually lazy morons.
*I skipped over much longer video lectures and essays explaining it in more and better detail. But I thought, this seems new to this guy should go with something short and sweet, even if not as in-depth as I would like.
I watched over two minutes of your video. It certainly has some interesting interpretations and seems to strive to distort what the Bible actually teaches. I have no idea how many times I have read the Bible, but certainly didn't get the idea the writers believed it was flat. I always thought the foundations of the earth was gravity. The Bible clearly claims the earth is a sphere and God hunt the north on nothing. It talks about the circle and boundary where light meets darkness.
But, you still didn't answer my question about where you claim the water came from.
Typical Christian. I take the time to find a short 6 minute video* that not only answers your question, but explains the cosmological view of the writers of Genesis and picks out a few of the biblical passages that back it up, and you can’t make it past 2 minutes. This is why Christians are considered intellectually lazy morons.
*I skipped over much longer video lectures and essays explaining it in more and better detail. But I thought, this seems new to this guy should go with something short and sweet, even if not as in-depth as I would like.
Oh boy... where to start.....?
1. Do you understand that the maker of the video took disparate verses from the Bible and attempted to explain how ancient Jewish scholars.... MAY... have interpreted the Creation scriptures?
2. As knowledgeable as the maker of the video may be, he jumped from these many different verses....took his own thoughts and interpretations ...... and made it into a CARTOON? And then, in your ignorance, you told one of the previous posters that this video/cartoon ANSWERS his question ......?
3. Given your comment on eisegesis and exegesis, one would presume you did in fact understand it. Apparently, you do not. The maker of the video was perhaps giving us his best and most accurate rendition of what Jewish scholars thought about the Creation story..... but understand this..... he did indeed take many different verses from different books of the Bible that were not descriptions of the acts of Creation. This is classic "eisegesis."
Now, pls read the following quote.....
"If we accept Genesis 1 as ancient cosmology, then we need to interpret it as ancient cosmology rather than translate it into modern cosmology. If we turn it into modern cosmology, we are making the text say something that it never said. . . . Since we view the text as authoritative, it is a dangerous thing to change the meaning of the text into something it never intended to say. . . . If God aligned revelation with one particular science, it would have been unintelligible to people who lived prior to the time of that science. . . . We gain nothing by bringing Gods revelation into accordance with todays science. In contrast, it makes perfect sense that God communicated his revelation to his immediate audience in terms they understood ."
Further.....Walton brings analogies to the readers attention that reinforce the coherence of his thesis. For example, when the Old Testament speaks of the mind and refers to the seat of emotions and intellect as the heart, liver, kidneys, and intestines, modern science cannot be aligned with such a notion. As Walton notes, When God wanted to talk to the Israelites about their intellect, emotions, and will, he did not revise their ideas of physiology and feel compelled to reveal the function of the brain. . . . Consequently, we need not try to come up with a physiology for our times that would explain how people think with their entrails
A point to be made...... The Old Testament scholars could see THAT God created.... but they could not understand HOW.
In the same way, Martin Luther could see..... THAT.... God created but could not understand HOW.
In the same way, you and I can (possibly) ..see THAT.... God created but we cannot understand HOW.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
I watched over two minutes of your video. It certainly has some interesting interpretations and seems to strive to distort what the Bible actually teaches. I have no idea how many times I have read the Bible, but certainly didn't get the idea the writers believed it was flat. I always thought the foundations of the earth was gravity. The Bible clearly claims the earth is a sphere and God hunt the north on nothing. It talks about the circle and boundary where light meets darkness.
But, you still didn't answer my question about where you claim the water came from.
Typical Christian. I take the time to find a short 6 minute video* that not only answers your question, but explains the cosmological view of the writers of Genesis and picks out a few of the biblical passages that back it up, and you can’t make it past 2 minutes. This is why Christians are considered intellectually lazy morons.
*I skipped over much longer video lectures and essays explaining it in more and better detail. But I thought, this seems new to this guy should go with something short and sweet, even if not as in-depth as I would like.
Well put. Sums it up nicely.
Nope..... see my last post.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
If you knew that Christianity was true, would you become a follower of Jesus…?
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
No I wouldn't. The god described in the bible is a total cunt.
Your position clearly has zero to do with truth and logic and reason and ‘lack of evidence’, or science ~ despite your many assertions (recent and past) to the contrary. Your position is clearly a matter of the heart. Period. You have clearly pointed out what has been known by many here all along.
My position is always about facts and truth. You're in love with Jesus even though the story is devoid of facts makes no sense at all, and god is portrayed so badly. Yet you still strive to be one of god's bitches. So sad that you want to forgo morality for a life, and pretend beyond, in a fairytale.
In these forums, it is indeed very sad and disappointing when a person like you repeatedly demonstrates such hypocrisy and emptiness - accentuated by rotten blather. Your position is NEVER about facts and truth, as shown again and again by these and many other posters who have exposed your falsity and delusion. That fact is demonstrated in many past threads.
It must be horrible to live every day in a quest to somehow convince yourself that you are a normal, healthy person in the face of such nagging evidence. Your value here amounts to the simplicity of a bad example.
LOL!!! CCCC the Class Clown - here to keenly display his buffoonery!!! Off to the corner you go, and don't forget to put on your dunce cap. LOL!!!
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
The waters from the great flood story of Noah came when God opened the floodgates of heaven and let the great ocean of water above the firmament poor onto the Earth. At the same he opened up the deep springs and let the great ocean of water under the Earth rise up.
That is what the Bible says! Read your Bible before preaching it to others. Or better yet stop preaching it all together.
(As a little bonus, I'll let you in on a little secret. The aren’t and never have been great oceans of water above the sky (fermament), nor has there ever been a great deep of ocean water below the Earth.)
I watched over two minutes of your video. It certainly has some interesting interpretations and seems to strive to distort what the Bible actually teaches. I have no idea how many times I have read the Bible, but certainly didn't get the idea the writers believed it was flat. I always thought the foundations of the earth was gravity. The Bible clearly claims the earth is a sphere and God hunt the north on nothing. It talks about the circle and boundary where light meets darkness.
But, you still didn't answer my question about where you claim the water came from.
Typical Christian. I take the time to find a short 6 minute video* that not only answers your question, but explains the cosmological view of the writers of Genesis and picks out a few of the biblical passages that back it up, and you can’t make it past 2 minutes. This is why Christians are considered intellectually lazy morons.
*I skipped over much longer video lectures and essays explaining it in more and better detail. But I thought, this seems new to this guy should go with something short and sweet, even if not as in-depth as I would like.
Well put. Sums it up nicely.
Nope..... see my last post.
I did. It's a rationale, not a rebuttal. The author/s of Genesis borrowed from a set of creation myths and cosmology from surrounding cultures and adapted them to construct a religion and identity for the Israelites, that's all.
For those people who were raised on a version of Christianity that relied on the Bible as the ‘foundation’ of the faith, a version that was eventually seemingly dismantled to them by the realities of their lives or by academia, maybe it’s possible for them to change their minds about Jesus. Maybe it’s possible for them to consider the original version of Christianity that relies on the event of the resurrection of Jesus as its foundation.
If people gave up on Christianity because of something in the Bible or something about the Bible, maybe they gave up on it unnecessarily.
The waters from the great flood story of Noah came when God opened the floodgates of heaven and let the great ocean of water above the firmament poor onto the Earth. At the same he opened up the deep springs and let the great ocean of water under the Earth rise up.
That is what the Bible says! Read your Bible before preaching it to others. Or better yet stop preaching it all together.
(As a little bonus, I'll let you in on a little secret. The aren’t and never have been great oceans of water above the sky (fermament), nor has there ever been a great deep of ocean water below the Earth.)
So… I assume you were intending to respond to me but erroneously addressed the above response to DBT…. IDK, but whatever…..
If you were responding to me, pls note that I did not ever say or confirm that I held to concept that there were great oceans of water above the sky….. nor did I confirm …or deny…. that there was ever a great deep ocean of water below the Earth. These were points that you were apparently trying to make when you first posted the Heiser video.
So again, you are just making stuff up.
You remain confused …
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
I watched over two minutes of your video. It certainly has some interesting interpretations and seems to strive to distort what the Bible actually teaches. I have no idea how many times I have read the Bible, but certainly didn't get the idea the writers believed it was flat. I always thought the foundations of the earth was gravity. The Bible clearly claims the earth is a sphere and God hunt the north on nothing. It talks about the circle and boundary where light meets darkness.
But, you still didn't answer my question about where you claim the water came from.
Typical Christian. I take the time to find a short 6 minute video* that not only answers your question, but explains the cosmological view of the writers of Genesis and picks out a few of the biblical passages that back it up, and you can’t make it past 2 minutes. This is why Christians are considered intellectually lazy morons.
*I skipped over much longer video lectures and essays explaining it in more and better detail. But I thought, this seems new to this guy should go with something short and sweet, even if not as in-depth as I would like.
So answer the question in your words.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
The waters from the great flood story of Noah came when God opened the floodgates of heaven and let the great ocean of water above the firmament poor onto the Earth. At the same he opened up the deep springs and let the great ocean of water under the Earth rise up.
That is what the Bible says! Read your Bible before preaching it to others. Or better yet stop preaching it all together.
(As a little bonus, I'll let you in on a little secret. The aren’t and never have been great oceans of water above the sky (fermament), nor has there ever been a great deep of ocean water below the Earth.)
You are appealing to knowledge you can't possess. No one alive can say what was or wasn't before the Flood. At least you got the part about where the water came from correct.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
The waters from the great flood story of Noah came when God opened the floodgates of heaven and let the great ocean of water above the firmament poor onto the Earth. At the same he opened up the deep springs and let the great ocean of water under the Earth rise up.
That is what the Bible says! Read your Bible before preaching it to others. Or better yet stop preaching it all together.
(As a little bonus, I'll let you in on a little secret. The aren’t and never have been great oceans of water above the sky (fermament), nor has there ever been a great deep of ocean water below the Earth.)
You are appealing to knowledge you can't possess. No one alive can say what was or wasn't before the Flood. At least you got the part about where the water came from correct.
''In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.'' Genesis 7:11
The waters from the great flood story of Noah came when God opened the floodgates of heaven and let the great ocean of water above the firmament poor onto the Earth. At the same he opened up the deep springs and let the great ocean of water under the Earth rise up.
That is what the Bible says! Read your Bible before preaching it to others. Or better yet stop preaching it all together.
(As a little bonus, I'll let you in on a little secret. The aren’t and never have been great oceans of water above the sky (fermament), nor has there ever been a great deep of ocean water below the Earth.)
You are appealing to knowledge you can't possess. No one alive can say what was or wasn't before the Flood. At least you got the part about where the water came from correct.
Yes, I got where the Bible a says the water came from correct. Not hard, that’s what it says. But I repeatedly asked you and you seemed unable to answer, even though it clearly states it in Genesis. So Bible Boy, have you never actually read the Bible or were you too embarrassed to say yourself what it says.
As to no one alive being able to say what was or wasn’t before the flood. A couple of points: You’re saying everything before the flood story is bullshT then. And therefore your using the Bible to determine the age of the earth is just the ramblings of an idiot. I would agree with you on both points.
The waters from the great flood story of Noah came when God opened the floodgates of heaven and let the great ocean of water above the firmament poor onto the Earth. At the same he opened up the deep springs and let the great ocean of water under the Earth rise up.
That is what the Bible says! Read your Bible before preaching it to others. Or better yet stop preaching it all together.
(As a little bonus, I'll let you in on a little secret. The aren’t and never have been great oceans of water above the sky (fermament), nor has there ever been a great deep of ocean water below the Earth.)
You are appealing to knowledge you can't possess. No one alive can say what was or wasn't before the Flood. At least you got the part about where the water came from correct.
How do you say what was or wasn't before an event that never happened?
Saying you can't know what happened before an event that did not occur doesn't make any sense.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
T then. And therefore your using the Bible to determine the age of the earth is just the ramblings of an idiot. I would agree with you on both points.