Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

LOL Sir Ron, you're having too much fun with all those wares, BTW, if you ever get tired of that Marlin Trapper i have a cousin looking for one, you'll get that Creedmost match handled just fine, still thinking of my saami FN Browning 458 WM and safari, iirc i did get, or very near 2300 fps with 500gr Partitions and AA-2460, man that's hard to beat at 3.340"

I need to find some Woodleigh 215gr solids for my little 303 British double, even little doubles need a good solid load, also iirc, Bell slew some Ele's with those too.

Sir Jerry,
Asante sana for noticing.
I am OCD about guns and hunting and I will do what I can about it.
I am sure you know the feeling.
If I can't go shoot something, I am preparing to, to no end.
Here is another funny, the Dwarf Scope on the Dwarf Rifle, a .458 B&M+ (Winchester Throated),
which, if barrel was not just 16.9" long, could run with your Big Dog FN Browning .458 WM:





Fits perfectly on the Near Mfg. 20-MOA rail with LOW QRW.
That rail is same length on Freki the FN M98 .458 WM+, works there too.
Those rings get the scope tube about 0.30" above the top surface of the rail.
Large objective bell has to taper over end of the rail so full bell diameter is out in front of the end of the rail.
Barely works !
Would have to use it in the scout-scope location on the Ruger-Marlin peep-rail, and with higher rings, too funny !
Near 9" of eye-relief on 3X, near 5" on 9X, heh-heh-heh.

Please tell your cousin to keep the faith on the Ruger-Marlin, and keep looking !
I waited over 2 years for the local emporium to get one and they never did.
Must have been a long waiting list and I was nowhere near the top of it.
Then I strolled into a non-local emporium and they had 2 in stock for 2 days, before I left with the last one at full MSRP+.

BTW, those Low QRW 30 mm rings have been lying fallow since 2013,
when I walked into an emporium in Las Vegas and spied them.
Finally found a use for them.
Only time I have been to Sin City and what did I do ?
Look for gunshops and Elvis impersonators.
Oh, yeah, flew over the Grand Canyon on a helicopter ride with the Wife.
Not enough gunshops in Las Vegas to make me ever want to go back there.

Good Morning Knights! It seems Ron Spomer has seen the light regarding the great 458WM - here's his latest YouTube video:

I don't mind listening to Ron at all. Pretty even keeled fella.

Well, since the .458 Winchester Magnum is my favorite, and I'm a long-time handloader, I'll make a comment or two:

I too like Ron Spomer comments even though they are often quite amateurish. He's a good talker and a friendly type guy. That's my first comment.

My second is this: I would never recommend this video to anyone interested in a .458 Winchester Magnum. He is simply too amateurish. All that he said and presented came from very limited research (available to anyone) and no personal experience. Many of the bullets for handloading that he talked about, he knew nothing about, like the MVs possible and their use. And he's giving advise to handloaders?! having never handloaded a .458 . . . has he ever fired a .458 Win?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I’d agree with that. He’s more of a small caliber sorta fellow it seems.

Quite superficial as it was, at least he has begun to pay some respect to the King of Cartridges.
"Everyman's big bore" and "Most versatile ..." did cross his lips.
However, he is strangely confused about whether .452-caliber handgun bullets may be satisfactorily used in the .458 WinMag,
and he does not even include the 404-gr Shock Hammer in his list of bullets for the .458 WinMag !!!

A basic comment would be to tell that even in 1955-dated H. P. White Laboratory testing
using that antique HiVel #2 powder (71.0 grains NOT COMPRESSED),
a 500-grain WRA FMJ RN was propelled to 2160 fps from a 25"-barreled .458 WinMag at 3.340" COL,
at low pressure of 50,410 psi.
That was an instrumental velocity 20 feet from the muzzle, average for 10 shots.
Corrected to MV that is 2174 fps, assuming BC 0f 0.295.
24" barrel velocity would be about 2159 fps MV.

That was reported to General (Ret. USA) Julian Sommerville Hatcher, Technical Editor for THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN,
circa Nov. 8, 1955.
Did Hatcher typo the CUP to psi in reporting that ?
Even if it was actually 50,410 CUP, that is still much less than 60,000 psi,
and less than the 53,000 CUP limit used back then, equivalent to 60,000 psi current SAAMI standard,
which Ron Spomer had so much trouble remembering.

Also took him the longest time to remember the 460 Wby and 577 Tyrannosaur are more powerful than the .458 WinMag.
He must be star-struck by his new discovery of the .458 WinMag.
Maybe he will actually shoot one and handload some ammo for one, someday.
If he does it and documents it with another Spomer-style video, we shall invite him to have a seat at the Square Table.

That last video would lead one to believe the .458 WinMag was plagued by super-compressed loads
that pushed bullets out of the cases at the most inopportune times.
Not so.
There are all kinds of gossip out there, undocumented except by hearsay.
Propaganda from the little old ladies promoting the .458 Lott.

Any factory ammo problems for the .458 WinMag were caused by sabotage,
meaning the same quality control standards and incompetence, or malicious intent, as a Joe Biden voter.
What competent handloader has ever been disappointed by the .458 WinMag ?

You guys are gassin' on it so hard i had to pull my little 303 double out of the safe and work up a solid load for it for the very first time, thread below, ALL things Africa belong in the King 458 WM thread imho ; ]

Great bullet for training with iron-sighted rat caliber to mimic .458 WinMag with iron sights.
Fun to try in subsonic 300 Blackout too, heh-heh-heh.



See Sir Jerry's 303 British Double Rifle thread.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...33/303-british-double-rifle#Post19097033

I would recommend the 303 British Double Rifle for shooting off of your step ladder in the elephant grass.
Great for braining elephants according to Karamojo Bell.
Many more great elephant hunters kept both feet on the ground and used a .458 WinMag.
Some of them had bags 3 times the size of Bell's, and I do not mean their scrotums.

LOL, fun stuff Sir Ron, and yes, Bell had no where near as good a solid bullets we have available today, across the caliber spectrum.

From Sir Jerry:



Make up some practice loads with those to match the .458 WM+ trajectory.
Practice with scope and iron sights if you got 'em.

The only 7mm rifles in my cache are the 7x57mm Ruger M77 Mk II walnut & blue
and a 7mm STW Remington M700 stainless/synthetic.
Both are accurate shooters.
Accuracy is about the only thing the 7mm STW has going for it.

Yes Sir, those solids would also be perfect for the tiny ten, plus, if a bull Eland, Wildebeest, Gemsbok, Zebra stallion etc turned to run after a soft nose bullet hit i bet busting them on the butt with that solid would roll them and may even exit the front.

A great addition to do the light lifting while the mghty 458 WM handled the hard work.

A followup on SWFA rings I said I wanted to try after discovering their scopes,
late to the party:




If the crossbolt is square on both sides, or at least allows nuts on left side of rifle,
then they do beat Burris X-Tac.
Flat top too is an improvement, though Burris Picatinny tops come at extra cost.
1" inserts in 30mm rings is OK too, for free with every set !
All for a price that beats Burris.
Cheap !
I have a new favorite ring, even if it is made in China like Burris.

Will be checking them out. Just ordered some.
Probably made in the same Chinese factory as Burris X-Tac, but SWFA is trying harder with features and pricing.

Yep, I need to get out more often.
Late to the party on many things, but ...
Like a farm boy happy for bad weather so he can goof off ...
I have just come into a collection of literature dating back into the middle of last century.
Gun and hunting magazines. Wolfe pubs, NRA pubs, Precision Shooting, Muzzle Blasts, etc.
These were from a faithful subscriber to many pubs who feels he has learned all he can from this thousand pounds of pulp.
I will catch up on the issues I missed when I was working too many hours and moving about the country for school and jobs.
I was hit or miss on subscriptions and newstand visits except for NRA pubs since the 1980s.
Time to return to the past to marvel at how things used to be.
Mostly better then than now.
I do love my feeble, 89-y.o. Mother and being her care-taker,
but man-oh-man am I going hunting if I out-live her.

So due to extenuating circumstances I am still ordering parts and planning another build.
If I don't get to the M77 Hawkeye .458 WinMag soon,
I am going to finish that .500 Jeffery CZ 550 Magnum out of boredom,
and convert the CVA Scout .45-70 Gov't. into another .45-70 Elko Magnum (CIP) aka .45-2.6"-Sharps-Winchester-Throated (RIP),
and window the Whitworth Mark X magazine box on the .458/.416 Ruger aka .458 Win Ruger (RIP),
so it will hold 3 down instead of only two.
If I screw that up, Sunny Hill Enterprises might have another #430 Assembly available, maybe holding 4 down.
Pinching pennies comes first.

Parts is parts, here's a bargain, available for Ruger M77, wish they did this for Winchester M70 and Mauser M98:





I always did like a stainless steel floorplate on a blue and walnut rifle.
...
Screenshot from this thread
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/18575386/6/375-h-h-vs-416-rem
is an interesting windowed magazine box (also extended to the front for .375 H&H) belonging to luv2safari:



And here is a 1905 vintage 404 Jeffery, the first ever supremely capable DG bolt-action magazine-repeater,
the one that spawned the me-too .425 Westley Richards of 1909, .416 Rigby of 1911 and .375 H&H of 1912,
ultimately leading to the victorious .458 Winchester Magnum of 1956,
and it is missing some magazine parts !!!:



That steel plate on the front of the magazine well would be cut off from the M98 box
and stuck on with J-B Weld if I did something like that.
I don't need to go to that extreme,
just need to figure out the best sidewall windowing pattern, similar to the .375 H&H above,
or like the windows on the Winchester M70 RUM actions, heh-heh-heh.

So I posted the information on a Ruger No. 1-H Tropical Rifle in the great .458 Win. Mag. in the Single Shot Thread as to inform others on the Gunrunner Auction site in Burton Ohio about an hour from me as I've dealt with them before and have had no issues. Too bad I don't need another Rifle as I do like it! I know that might be Blasphemy here on the fire but what can ya do? Like Cochise "I speak the Truth"! LOL!!!

HS 58

Sir Tony,
Asante sana.
She has been rode a bit hard, but just shows how useful she was for any game:



DESCRIPTION
Ruger No. 1-H Tropical, .458 Win. magnum cal. falling block rifle. Serial #132-08095. Good condition. 24" heavy barrel has an excellent bore, fixed front and flip-up adjustable rear factory sights. Fitted with a Bushnell Scope Chief VI 3-9x40 scope with a duplex reticle and clear optics. 95% blue finish on the barrel with light muzzle wear. The right side of the receiver has excellent finish, the left side has heavy finish wear with some peppering. Checkered wood forearm and stock are in good shape with wear to the left side and has some scattered scratches and hits. Has a Ruger pistol grip cap and Ruger marked red rubber butt pad. Comes with a leather sling. Perfect for dangerous game on the Dark Continent or big brownies! You can load up it up or down and eat right to the holes!

By serial number she is of early 1981 production.
My first one was acquired in 1984, my first "big bore."
My last one was of 1980 production by SN, acquired in 2018, finally righting a wrong.
Daisy was like new for about $800, a great find.

Sir Ron,
Nice job following up to show the Square Table Members just what I was talking about. I agree she was rode a little on the harder side of the trail and possibly up hill at that. These dog gone things have always caught my eye. It's still not a pre. 64 Model 70 which to me would be no comparison along with a few others in this great caliber. We never know if someone is wanting to scratch that itch. She's still at $720.00 with a day and a half left at auction.

HS 58

I made it through the holidays & I'm still hunting deer in MS on the weekends but now it's time to turn my attention back to my 7mm RM -> 458 WM conversion that I started last month. I've had a nice chat with my gunsmith, have a few more parts ordered plus got a cool Christmas present for myself when my new Garmin Xero from Walls Rifle (thanks for the tip Sir Ron!) arrived last week. I'm snowed in right now so I've been getting a lot of reading done on this thread, Sir Bob's blog & one of Mule Deer's books (The Big Book of Gun Gack...another Christmas present to myself). I had a couple of questions that I was trying to find the answers to but so far I haven't been able to quite cobble together the comprehensive answer I was looking for even though I had fun reading a bunch of posts with a lot of other useful information. So I finally decided to ask a few questions that I have been pondering on.

The rifle I'm converting is a Ruger M77 which has a magazine that is 3.425" (87mm) long. Some of the loads mentioned in these posts have a longer COL suitable for single-loading in a bolt action or Ruger No. 1. But for the questions below, I'm interested in handloads that are closer to the standard 3.340" (84.84mm) length that fit this magazine and would feed well. Per Bob's recommendation, I'm planning on putting a new 23" barrel on the rifle.

Q1: In several of these posts, the 404gr Shock Hammer is mentioned as an all-purpose round useful in many situations. For this bullet, what would be a good "mild" load powder-wise for hunting game like deer & hogs in the southeast? A larger plain games load? A powerful DG load? Not only am I new to the 458 WM but I'm also new to reloading so I have a lot to learn. For example, I'm assuming that limiting the COL to 3.340" could have a bearing on how long a projectile you want to use since it would affect the amount of powder you could put behind it. If I use a 1.44" Shock Hammer then that limits the room in the case to 1.9", I don't know how that might negatively affect creating the more powerful option or possibly require a different powder selection in order to do so.

Q2: The 404gr Shock Hammer & the CEB Solid are mentioned as a complimentary pairing of bullets to cover a variety of situations. Is the powder load for the CEB identical to the Hammer to achieve a similar trajectory? Or is a slight adjustment required to get them close to matching? Or do I simply determine that requirement on my nifty new chronograph & test that question for myself?


Q3: Since I moved my 87-y.o. mother in next door to me this past July, my world has gotten a bit smaller (hopefully for many more years!) as my brother & I tag-team on her care. Travelling across the planet has come to a halt & my vacations have become shorter & more akin to a nearby "staycation". Since smaller lighter game closer to home will be my primary target for the foreseeable future, expanding your view past the vaunted 404gr Shock Hammer, are there any recommended loads using other bullets (e.g. Sir Bob's 250gr MonoFlex handload for deer & bear) that would yield results similar to a 45-70? The "...if I out-live her" part of the above quote made me laugh since I spent 4 days last year in a CCU staring at the ceiling after a heart attack. It's a coin flip as to who's going to last longer, so I just try to enjoy every day as much as possible.

Q4: If you wanted to launch a bullet from this rifle at a sheet of metal many hundreds of yards away and make a ringing sound, what would that round look like? Basically the goal being prioritizing accurate shootability with less drift & drop over terminal energy (which would probably still be substantial ). In what seems to be a trend amongst my peers, one of my hunting buddies has retired to spend more time at the family pecan farm in central AR helping out his parents. I think skeet shooting & long-distance target practice across the fields with a river levee for a backdrop is going to start being a common pastime in the near future.


Holiday time at the range with a wimpy 303 British, 9.3x74r & a pair of 375 H&H's

Sir Darryl,
Good on you for getting that Garmin Xero.
It will help immensely in getting you up to speed on your handloads, sort of a pun intended.
I have not even had a chance to use mine yet, looking forward to the luxury.
Count your blessings that you have a Brother nearby to share Mom.
My three ne'er-do-well siblings do long-distance "love" only.

Q1: Do not fear limited case capacity even with 3.34" COL.
Until you say what bullet and powder you want to use, I could flap about forever.
AA-5744, H4198, Benchmark, AA-2230, AA-2460, H4895, and any powder good in the .223/5.56 Nato: Lots and lots of powder lots,
just about any lot you got.
Those are just a few of my favorites.
I could do it all with H4895 from 60% of max SAAMI loads to +110% of max loads,
if willing to load to pressures and lengths within the limits allowed for the .458 Lott.
Make of brass too must be specified.
Norma is over 4 grains H2O bigger and Peterson is about 1 grain smaller than all the following makes:
Federal, Remington, Winchester, Hornady are all about the same, in the 94-95 grains H2O range.
Also, do not think you are limited to 3.34" COL in your 3.425" inside length of magazine.
Crimping locations that work well with the 404-gr Shock Hammer are 3.28", 3.38", 3.48", even 3.58" at the extreme.
I like my CEB 400-gr FN loads at 3.36" COL.
Your rifle will eject loaded, unfired rounds up to 3.54" COL, bullet tip clears to eject in the standard M77.
Loads up to 3.395" COL work like a charm through your magazine repeater.

Q2: The 404-gr Shock Hammer and 400-gr CEB brass FN may use the same powder charge,
but it all depends on factors mentioned in Q1.

One possible load combo with 78.0 grains of Benchmark:
GM215M (same as F215) primer
Norma brass case
24-1/4" barrel
1. 404-gr Shock Hammer at 3.380" COL: 2463 fps MV (starting load)
2. 400-gr CEB Brass FN at 3.360" COL: 2506 fps MV (one and only load tried 5 holes in one at 50 yards)
Differing charges and COLs:
3. 404-gr Shock Hammer at 3.580 COL with 84.0 grains of Benchmark: 2612 fps MV (Max load)
Also 5 holes in one at 50 yards and only 1/2" above the CEB load, very near same POI.
Close enough for pairing at 100 yards too, but when one bullet has a G1 BC 0f less than 0.2
and the other one is greater than 0.4,
think dead-on at 100 yards with the FN and then 2 to 3 inches high with the pointy one.

Q3 & Q4: The 250-gr Monoflex at 2700 fps with either AA-5744 (not your usual reduced load) or H4198 is practical. +3000 fps not necessary but possible.
A really fun load that duplicates the old BP 45-70 pretty closely and is good for banging gongs out to 600 yards:
The old Lyman "Government" bullet, plain base, cast in Linotype and sized to .461" and powder-coat-painted as only lube,
it weighs 487 grains like that.
Load it to 3.375" COL with 36.0 grains of AA-5744 and NO FILLER.
24-7/8" CZ take-off barrel on a Pre-'64 M70,
Oehler P35, 5-shot standard deviation = 3 fps, 1436 fps MV.

Pick up your load manual for the .458 Winchester Magnum and start low and work up, in your rifle.
Let that Garmin Xero be your guide.
72.0 to 80.0 grains of AA-2230 is the short-COL SAAMI-satisfying charge range for the Barnes Original 400-grain cup&core SSSP.

Many here at the Square Table will be able to address any specific load suggestions for a given bullet, powder and brass combo.
Soon you will too.

And hey, a pocket plate for the Ruger M77 has gone from Big Lake, AK to Anchorage, headed for KY, and I don't mean KY Jelly.
Might be a good addition to your WunderRifle too, to turn it from a 4-shooter into a 5-shooter.

I'm shooting the 404 grain Shock Hammer @ 3.383" COAL in Norma brass Federal 215 primer ahead of 85 grains of AA2230 new manufactured powder for 2523 FPS. This load may be a bit over SAAMI MAP, but has worked fine in my rifle with repeated loads in the same brass