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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
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In my opinion, the old SST was garbage. I had them come apart on small white-tailed does, shot from a moderate-velocity .308. Never again would I use that bullet. The old SST was garbage, but as Nosler did with the early, fragile Ballistic Tips, Hornady fixed the SSTS not long after the initial poor results. Among several instances I've witnessed in the past several years Including bull elk taken with a 180 SST from a Hornady factory load) was a hunt I went on in South Texas in 2017 with some other gun-industry people. We all used Franchi Momentum bolt-action rifles in .308 Winchester and factory ammo with the 150-grain SST at a listed 2820 fps. We took 20 whitetails and pigs--and never recovered a bullet, so don't know how much weight the bullets retained. The biggest buck weighed around 200 pounds on the ranch scale, and was taken at around 100 yards, almost facing the hunter. The bullet entered the chest inside the left shoulder and exited the right ham. The biggest pig also weighed right around 200, and was shot through both shoulders at around 60 yards--and the bullet broke both shoulders and exited.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Good morning Sid, good to see that you’re still around and kick’n! Have a great New Year my friend! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Sounds like pretty good bullet performance with those SSTS’s ! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Joined: Aug 2021
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Campfire Regular
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"As Craig Boddington likes to say bullet weight covers sins in bullet construction so if using a heavy for game bullet probably ok"
Isn't that essentially what Elmer was doing with those 300 grain .338 bullets? Except Elmer used .333 caliber Jeffreys bullets. If he had a .338 caliber cartridge, he could have used Nosler Partitions on those safaris back in the late 50's. Elmer used 300-grain steel-jacketed .333 Kynoch bullets on his first safari in 1958, both "solids" and "softs," in his .333 OKH. The softs blew up so badly (one didn't even exit a Thompson's gazelle about the size of a big coyote) that he used the solids for the rest of the safari. They were the typical round-nosed solids of the era, which didn't kill very well either, even though they penetrated. I know this from reading his book Safari numerous times, which was pretty rare due to being a private printing. I have enormous respect for Elmer in most ways, the reason I re-read Hell, I Was There every 2-3 years--and also own or have owned all his other books. For one thing, he often mentioned how little meat damage heavier, slower bullets caused, something many "gun writers" never mention--perhaps because the meat isn't important to them. For another Lorraine always seemed to be very happy, which counts for a lot in my world. Also corresponded briefly with him toward the end of his life, and have one of his letters on the wall of my office--which deals with the .338-06 and the best bullets and loads. But he was also more "resistant" to how changes in bullet construction affected consistent performance, whether penetration or expansion or whatever. One example is how he wrote at least once that the 250-grain .338 Nosler Partition should have weighed 300 grains. I have killed a bunch of big game weighing up to 1500 pounds with the 250 .338 and have yet to recover one.... Elmers last bull elk was killed with the 275 Gr Speer in a .338 KT. Bullet fragmented and but did kill that spike. A 130gr VLD from a 6.5mmCM would have done just as well. Recovering bullets is a ho hum thing. Recovering game is pretty important. KT pretty similar to the 340 Wby? More similar than different. I've had a couple of 340's and a full sized 338/378 and the only difference in the field was the recoil, headaches and muzzle roar. A case volume in between wouldn't have any notable difference and no benefits. The modern ballistic equivalent to Elmer's shortened .338-378 is the .338 Lapua. The Lapua case doesn't have the useless belt and is strengthened around the web, but otherwise, very similar. The .378 case was "inspired" by the .416 Rigby case, which of course doesn't have a belt. Elmer's shortened .338-378 is just another example of how clever he was, as the .338 Lapua is still considered the standard for long-range shooting with a medium bore.
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Elmer's shortened .338-378 is just another example of how clever he was, as the .338 Lapua is still considered the standard for long-range shooting with a medium bore
We have a winner here! Someone that appreciates Elmer Keith and his contributions. 👍 memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Joined: Apr 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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beretzs, Elmer and Thompson pushed the shoulder back about a quarter of an inch on his .338/378. He felt a full lenght case was too over bore for 4831. He gained a bit of speed over the .340 I am not sure now how much. I am also not sure about the 275 gr Speer blowing up in the spike. He never mentioned a failure with that bullet that I remember reading about. I know it was his 50th elk for his own use.
As much as I respect Elmer he had his short comings, but who doesn't. He was always concerned about the loss of meat. Something few other writers ever mentioned. Thanks WCH.
Semper Fi
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Joined: Jan 2020
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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In my opinion, the old SST was garbage. I had them come apart on small white-tailed does, shot from a moderate-velocity .308. Never again would I use that bullet. The old SST was garbage, but as Nosler did with the early, fragile Ballistic Tips, Hornady fixed the SSTS not long after the initial poor results. Among several instances I've witnessed in the past several years Including bull elk taken with a 180 SST from a Hornady factory load) was a hunt I went on in South Texas in 2017 with some other gun-industry people. We all used Franchi Momentum bolt-action rifles in .308 Winchester and factory ammo with the 150-grain SST at a listed 2820 fps. We took 20 whitetails and pigs--and never recovered a bullet, so don't know how much weight the bullets retained. The biggest buck weighed around 200 pounds on the ranch scale, and was taken at around 100 yards, almost facing the hunter. The bullet entered the chest inside the left shoulder and exited the right ham. The biggest pig also weighed right around 200, and was shot through both shoulders at around 60 yards--and the bullet broke both shoulders and exited.With that said, what would you expect the SST to do at longer ranges and lower velocities? And why can't the bullet companies make a partition or interlock bullet with a high BC?
Life is good live it while you can.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,907 |
In my opinion, the old SST was garbage. I had them come apart on small white-tailed does, shot from a moderate-velocity .308. Never again would I use that bullet. The old SST was garbage, but as Nosler did with the early, fragile Ballistic Tips, Hornady fixed the SSTS not long after the initial poor results. Among several instances I've witnessed in the past several years Including bull elk taken with a 180 SST from a Hornady factory load) was a hunt I went on in South Texas in 2017 with some other gun-industry people. We all used Franchi Momentum bolt-action rifles in .308 Winchester and factory ammo with the 150-grain SST at a listed 2820 fps. We took 20 whitetails and pigs--and never recovered a bullet, so don't know how much weight the bullets retained. The biggest buck weighed around 200 pounds on the ranch scale, and was taken at around 100 yards, almost facing the hunter. The bullet entered the chest inside the left shoulder and exited the right ham. The biggest pig also weighed right around 200, and was shot through both shoulders at around 60 yards--and the bullet broke both shoulders and exited.With that said, what would you expect the SST to do at longer ranges and lower velocities? And why can't the bullet companies make a partition or interlock bullet with a high BC? If you want a higher BC than the Partition then use the Accubond. They are a very good bullet
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I know my experience is with a smaller caliber but I had four NC whitetails die via the Hornady 22 creedmoor 80 grain eld-x load thats supposedly moving at 3300 out of a 24" barrel (my gun has a 24" barrel). Three of the shots ranged form 100-175 and those didn't exit. Terminal damage was unreal (like the 77 grain TMK destruction out of the 5.56) DRT. The lone doe around 225 had an exit. Classic behind the shoulder shot, quarter sized exit, deer ran 50 yards in a thicket.
Last edited by fats; 01/16/24.
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I’ve probably shot 40ish animals weighing from 100 to 650 pounds with either ELDX or AMAX bullets. I’ve killed LOTS more, but these would be the “big game” weight sample size. I don’t recall losing one, and anything that’s made it more than 50 yards wasn’t shot what I’d call correctly. I’ve used 75/80 grain in 22 caliber in either a 223 or 22-250, 150 gr in 7mm, and 178/210 in 30 caliber. The largest was a very large nilgai at 170 yards shot directly into the shoulder. There was no exit and he ran around 50 yards. That’s not the bullet I really wanted to use, but it’s what I had and it worked. I’ve had great luck on deer and pigs using the 150gr in my 7-08. Shots from 10-450 yards have all resulted in dead deer, and most have been dead within 10-15 yards.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,111 |
In my opinion, the old SST was garbage. I had them come apart on small white-tailed does, shot from a moderate-velocity .308. Never again would I use that bullet. The old SST was garbage, but as Nosler did with the early, fragile Ballistic Tips, Hornady fixed the SSTS not long after the initial poor results. Among several instances I've witnessed in the past several years Including bull elk taken with a 180 SST from a Hornady factory load) was a hunt I went on in South Texas in 2017 with some other gun-industry people. We all used Franchi Momentum bolt-action rifles in .308 Winchester and factory ammo with the 150-grain SST at a listed 2820 fps. We took 20 whitetails and pigs--and never recovered a bullet, so don't know how much weight the bullets retained. The biggest buck weighed around 200 pounds on the ranch scale, and was taken at around 100 yards, almost facing the hunter. The bullet entered the chest inside the left shoulder and exited the right ham. The biggest pig also weighed right around 200, and was shot through both shoulders at around 60 yards--and the bullet broke both shoulders and exited.With that said, what would you expect the SST to do at longer ranges and lower velocities? And why can't the bullet companies make a partition or interlock bullet with a high BC? What do you consider a high BC?
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I consider a bc over .500 for many bullets I use as acceptable and over .600 as high. For example, the .308 180 grain Accubond has a bc of .507 which is acceptable. A 140 grain .270 bullet is acceptable to me if the bc is over .500 such as the TGK and Berger, the Badlands 140 has a .650 bc which is high. The 100 grain 6mm TGK has an acceptable bc of .515, whereas the Badlands 100 grain 6mm has a high bc of .600. A 225 grain .338 TTSX at .514 bc is acceptable and a 225 E-tip in .338 at around .600 is high. But of course, the heavier for caliber the bullet is, the higher the bc it needs to have to be "high" or "acceptable" for example a 175 grain .277 bullet with a bc of just over .500 isn't acceptable to me.
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I consider a bc over .500 for many bullets I use as acceptable... Acceptable for what purpose? Does that mean a bullet with a sub-.500 bc is unacceptable?
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I consider a bc over .500 for many bullets I use as acceptable... Acceptable for what purpose? Does that mean a bullet with a sub-.500 bc is unacceptable? Sub -.500 bc is unacceptable for me for a hunting bullet. Especially if there are alternative bullets of that weight that fall into the "acceptable" category. Except when talking cartridges designed for short range such as on dangerous game or smaller bores such as .224 or less. It is the year 2024, bullet manufacturers should be able to manufacture bullets that are accurate, reasonable bc, good terminal performance and without them being excessively expensive.
Last edited by Riflehunter; 01/16/24.
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Luckily for me, I don't need to shoot very far, so bc is completely irrelevant. I could load a Partition in backwards and still get by. 
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Campfire Outfitter
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I consider a bc over .500 for many bullets I use as acceptable... Acceptable for what purpose? Does that mean a bullet with a sub-.500 bc is unacceptable? Sub -.500 bc is unacceptable for me for a hunting bullet. Especially if there are alternative bullets of that weight that fall into the "acceptable" category. Except when talking cartridges designed for short range such as on dangerous game or smaller bores such as .224 or less. It is the year 2024, bullet manufacturers should be able to manufacture bullets that are accurate, reasonable bc, good terminal performance and without them being excessively expensive. Have you seen a difference in the field between an acceptable bc bullet and an unacceptable bullet? Say for instance you made a shot with a 140 grain 270 Berger that you wouldn't have been able to make with a 140 Partition due to a wind call, or perhaps you experienced inadequate terminal performance from a 140 Partition at the lower end of its velocity envelope?
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Campfire Regular
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I consider a bc over .500 for many bullets I use as acceptable... Acceptable for what purpose? Does that mean a bullet with a sub-.500 bc is unacceptable? Sub -.500 bc is unacceptable for me for a hunting bullet. Especially if there are alternative bullets of that weight that fall into the "acceptable" category. Except when talking cartridges designed for short range such as on dangerous game or smaller bores such as .224 or less. It is the year 2024, bullet manufacturers should be able to manufacture bullets that are accurate, reasonable bc, good terminal performance and without them being excessively expensive. Have you seen a difference in the field between an acceptable bc bullet and an unacceptable bullet? Say for instance you made a shot with a 140 grain 270 Berger that you wouldn't have been able to make with a 140 Partition due to a wind call, or perhaps you experienced inadequate terminal performance from a 140 Partition at the lower end of its velocity envelope? What happens is rather than see differences in performance on game between two bullets with different attributes such as bc, accuracy or terminal performance is you get to know what that particular bullet does or doesn't do well, and you adjust your hunting style accordingly, to minimize the risk of failure. For example, on a very long shot in the mountains with a strong wind, you simply do not take the shot which you might otherwise attempt with a higher bc bullet that is very accurate. But this happens only at the margin, in a very small percentage of shots. Again, on long shots, you tend to know that Bergers often give a higher percentage of DRT's where finding something that you shoot might be difficult. So that's the situation rather than "if you hit them in the vitals with either bullet they won't know the difference". Another area where you adjust your hunting style is on close range shots with bullets that, from experience, you know come apart easily. Instead of taking a shoulder shot that may anchor them faster with a tougher bullet, you might shoot into the lungs and avoid the shoulder...and they often run further. Or in thick cover, you avoid the shots at running game that you might otherwise take with a stouter bullet.
Last edited by Riflehunter; 01/17/24.
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So you have avoided real world shots because of bc differences, or due to bullet construction differences? If so, I'd be interested in reading about the circumstances.
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So you have avoided real world shots because of bc differences, or due to bullet construction differences? If so, I'd be interested in reading about the circumstances. Two examples where I avoided a shot: A monster blacktail in thick cover that saw me first and the only opportunity for a shot was a Texas heart shot before he disappeared. Didn't take the shot which I otherwise may have, if I had Barnes TSX loaded. Never saw him again. Another instance was on an overseas hunt high in the mountains of NZ after chamois. Avoided a 410 yard shot because of wind. Decided to stalk around the back of the mountain for a close shot. He was gone when I got to within 150 yards...never to be seen again. There are other instances as well such as an 850 yard shot that I had to empty the magazine before he was completely dead - the Bergers were accurate and had good terminal performance, but their bc wasn't very high and were getting blown around, together with shooter error. I don't shoot over 600 yards now (except for a 605 yard shot).
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Thank you for sharing your experiences.
It's certainly nice to have a setup that will work both near and far, as in my experience when one sets up for one extreme or the other, Mr. Murphy will arrive with his lawbook to present me with a shot that is the antithesis of what I had initially planned!
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