Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

There you go. Sir John Load, for a 24" Whitworth Mk X.
Might be 23.6" (600mm) or 24" to nearest inch.
Specifics include bullet, brass, powder charge, primer, and COL.
That is precise, good data.

Any scope good on a Ruger-Marlin .45-70 might be even better on a .458 WinMag.
Here is the Brian Pearce choice:



That is from he that used a Marlin .45-70 Gov't. lever action on cape buffalo
and wrote it up in the 2004 RIFLE #211 & #212, a two-parter.
I have finally gotten the chance to read the second part, found in my new half-ton library addition.
Pearce was using a Nikon 1.5-4.5x20mm in traditional location not complicated by the "peep&rail."

The 30mm tubed 1-5x24mm Leupold is 10.8" long and weighs 14.7 ounces
and has less eye relief than the 2.5x20mm Ultralight (8" and 6.5 ounces).
Pearce has mounted the big one ahead of the peep,
proving that tunnel vision is better than a poke in the eye.

Illuminated reticle and parallax fixed at 150 yards is a mixed blessing.
FireDot Duplex and huge internal adjustment range could be used for Creedmost 1000-yard shooting,
but would require "Tennessee Holdover" using the "uncluttered" reticle on 5X.
Dialing might be advisable with this scope.









RIFLE #211 is ironically where Ross Seyfried wrote "In Defiance of the .458 Winchester."
What ? The .458 WinMag totally inadequate for Ross ?
Or was Ross totally inadequate for it ?
Meanwhile, Brian Pearce was bowling over cape buffalo with 405-gr Cor Bon FP PEN solids
at about 1800 fps MV from his Marlin .45-70 Gov't.

"The recovered bullet on the left completely penetrated both shoulders of an old bull,
traveled 7 yards and then went through both shoulders of a cow.
The bullet on the right penetrated from rump to brisket of the ancient buffalo."

The CEB 400-grainer would be a better penetrator, even in a .458 WinMag, despite Ross Seyfried's opinion.
Opinions, everybody has one.
The 400-gr short-nosed version for lever actions has long been available.
The 400-gr longer-nosed version was a special order from Michael McCourry greasing the skids.
Hopefully CEB will make it a regular offerinng.

Elvis was last sighted at the KFC in Whitehorse, Yukon, headed for interior Alaska.
He was heard to be saying "thank you very much" as he left with his to-go bucket of fried chicken.
He spoke that in central Denaakk'e Athabascan dialect: Enaa Baasee'
I think he has been watching Life Below Zero spinoffs on TV.

Here is the picture of the FMJ FN "solids" from Cor Bon.
They have a 0.340" meplat, according to Brian Pearce.
They are not as non-deformable as the CEB brass solids,
and the 74% meplat will not penetrate as well as the 67% CEB BBW#13 nose profile,
but still one bullet passed through a bull and a cow on broadside shoulder shot:



Pearce's Marlin was a 1972 version with 22" barrel of 1:20" twist and had 12 grooves and lands.
His stated MV was 1793 fps, not 1650 fps as advertised for the factory load.
And here is his Williams peep sight accuracy, almost as good as he did with the Nikon scope:



The cropped off text is finished here, as copied from above, goes with first image in this post:
"The recovered bullet on the left completely penetrated both shoulders of an old bull,
traveled 7 yards and then went through both shoulders of a cow.
The bullet on the right penetrated from rump to brisket of the ancient buffalo."

Buffalo hunt was in Part II of "The .45-70 in Africa" RIFLE #212, March 2004.
Finally I have read it and another amazing feature of the #211+#212 combo is
that in #211 Dave Scovill wrote of converting a Ruger M77 MKII .338 WinMag to .375 H&H,
and in #212 he followed up with the telling of how Phil Shoemaker absconded with it to Alaska.

"It didn't take long for the stock to crack ..."
They replaced the factory walnut with a Ruger factory synthetic stock and off it went to Alaska.
I am only 20 years late in reading about that, though I knew from Phil's posts here that he and his guides got that rifle.

The killer with Marlins, and I have owned, used and reviewed many of them since 1972, was the overall feel of the rifle, which included stock design, drop at heal, the pad provided and the low comb when using a scope, was never as comfortable or natural to the hold for me compared to a.458 Model 70.

My last one was a Cowboy version with the 26" octagon barrel which I reviewed when released. It was a great rifle but even the straight grip as per the 1972 model was not as natural to grasp as the inbetween designs with the pistol grip and the 22" barrels.

Loved the long barrel and the 10 rounds it held but it really needed to be limited to milder loads for shooting comfort. Also, the POI shifted as the magazine emptied, not enough to miss game but enough to be able to record a variable when shooting off the bench.

I sold mine and kept the .458.Model 70, something I never regretted.

Ditto Sir Woods.
The rifle would string vertically as the 10-round magazine emptied, eh ?
Serviceable, but not as perfect as a good .458 WinMag.

Mike said it best as the OP, everyone should experience a .458. Not firing off a shot and handing it off, but playing around with it, experimenting with bullet weights and powders and then using it in the field. The more years you give it, the more respect you will afford it.

Name the animal, we'll name the load. It's that easy.

I’d agree with that AGW.. I need to get mine tuned up with some different bullets. It’s fun to play with that big hammer.

Given the discussions and experience on this thread with the 45-70 I thought I would take advantage of the advice the Knights might be willing to provide.

Planning to use the Ruger #3 200th liberty anniversary 45-70 I inherited from my late brother for whitetail next Fall. I haven’t reloaded much for the 45-70 and haven’t thought of it as deer rifle. But I’m limited to a single shot rifle, so this seems like a reasonable choice to consider.

I would value recommendations from the Square Table on specific bullets which will expand reliably out to 200-250 yds, if needed, on large Upper Midwest whitetails and deliver a definitive blow at those ranges. Preliminary review seems to suggest 300-350 grain SP or HP bullets. Does that sound like the right direction or is a 400-405 grain bullet a better choice?

I have a fair amount of AA2230 which I use for the 458 WM, so thinking about starting with that powder. Other choices I might consider with these bullets?

The 350 grain Hornady FP with RL7 or H4198 is a great shooting combo in a few 45-70's I have used it in. Runs around 1900-2000 FPS and should shoot through a couple deer if needed. You'd need something to dope that 250 range, but out to 200 with smart zeroing could get you there fairly easily. Good luck, the ol 45-70 is pretty keen to please.

Wildcatter264,
A flat nosed bullet in 458 caliber doesn’t need to expand to kill deer at 250 yards. I use cast in my 458wm at 1750-1950 fps and it kills just fine. Sir Bob has a lot of 45-70 loads he can share using a Ruger #1 and jacketed bullets.

http://www.bigbores.ca/

Best regards,
F01

I just checked Hodgdon site and they have a lot of aa 2230 loads listed.
F01

Easy button, B and Fury have it right, i'll add:

H-4198 under 250gr monoflex for 2600 fps or 300gr TTSX for 2450 fps, either would clean 250-300 yards with ease, AA-2230 may get you there too, albeit compressed loads, which i dont mind at all.

As with Odonata's brace of rifles containing the 303 British, 9.3x62 and a pair of 375's, augmenting arms to go with the great 458 WM is all part of the fun, being accused of being a facilitator is never a bad thing, the 45-70 is certainly in this group.

Thank you, gentlemen. This advice gives me a solid starting point.

Now for the fun part - loading with the components recommended and shooting the rifle out to the anticipated range.

Wildcatter,
Remember with the Ruger #1 your coal is only limited by the throat. Longer coals equal more case capacity.
F01

Excellent inputs from the Square Table Knights above.

The only thing I might add is that some of those Ruger No. 1 rifles have very short throats,
and sometimes need to have the throat lengthened a bit in order to use all bullets
without trimming brass short, etc.
A 350-gr Hornady RNSP might jam into the rifling when crimped on cannelure in some rifles,
whereas the 405-gr Remington FNSP has an ogive designed for "no-throat" and chambers with ease.

I like a 400-grainer at 1800 fps in a Marlin 1895 or Winchester 1886,
but not less than 2000 fps in a Ruger No. 1.
Cast bullets or solids do kill well with little or no expansion,
and so will about any other bullet of .458 caliber !
A 250-grainer at 2600, is pretty neat from a Ruger No. 1.
Almost as much fun as the .458 WinMag downloaded to 2700 fps instead of 3000 fps.
Higher velocity is mostly wasted for practical purposes.

















Sir Bob did a .45-70 LT (Long Throat) and could handle 500-grainers at SAAMI .458 WinMag levels in his Ruger No. 1.
Rechambering the Ruger No. 1 .45-70 Gov't.
by adding the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat onto a .45-2.6" chamber = .45-70 Elko Magnum, CIP homologated,
fully capable of beating the SAAMI .458 Lott, just like the .458 WM+ does.
I called it the .45-100-2.6" Sharps Winchester Throated before I knew it had already been invented
as the .45-70 Elko Magnum.
Here is a 22"-barreled, 7.25-pounder that can still fire factory .45-70 Gov't. ammo in a pinch, heh-heh-heh:

Thank you, Sir Ron, for the great amount of info.

I received a box of the Hornady 250 grain SP from Midway a couple of days ago and picked up the last box of Hornady 325 grain FTX at the local Academy Sports today. I plan to test a number of these powders with these bullets. I also have a fair number of Berry’s plated 350 grain 0.458” SOCOM bullets IIRC which I use for practice loads in the 458 WM and will also try for the same purpose in the 45-70.

I’ll plan to use the COAL Hornady case gauge so I can measure throat with the different bullets. If the throat is short lengthening it should be fairly straightforward.

Last decision about the rifle is which scope to mount. Thinking about a Leupold 4x sitting on the bench currently. Should be just about right for the ranges involved and will add a bit of weight to the old #3, something it definitely can use.

I had planned to convert this #3 to a #1 as I have the pieces needed for that and an almost finished stock I’ve been working on for the 500 NE 3” #1. I just might swap it and not have to worry about the lever and the light weight of the carbine.

We’ll see how ambitious the project becomes.

Great info from the Knights and the Square Table King!!

CEB .458 300-gr ESP Raptor may be used with or without its plastic ballistic tip as a "soft"
or turned backwards for use as an FN solid.
Could be made to work in a Ruger No. 1 .45-70 Gov't. having no throat,
just has to be seated deeply and give up some case capacity.
Fun bullet in a .458 WinMag.

One set of SWFA rings is worth at least 4 sets of the Burris X-tac rings,
probably way more than that,
and the SWFA rings cost less than Burris.
Many better features on the SWFA also.
My starter sample:







Burris X-tac is like some old taxidermy that needs to go to the barn:



'Possum I clubbed with a stick, coyote bagged on the run at 200 yards with my .25-'06 Remington M700,
both were professionally mounted by a VIP Taxidermist
(of course nowadays I hunt coyote with a .458 WinMag).
The 'coon is roadkill mounted by a rank amateur.
Jackalope buck and doe came from Wall Drug in SD, on the way back to KY from AK.)

SWFA is here to save the day:

It was a cold & dreary day so I decided to go hang out in a friend's barn & do a little work on Ophelia while he worked on his sailboat. I cranked up some Van Morrison on the Bose SoundLink & started to try to figure some things out...



The first thing I did was drill some test holes in a piece of scrap pine & to find the right drill bit to countersink my Talley crossbolt heads:



In several online reviews I heard mixed stories about adding pillars to a Ruger M77 stock. Some people had a perfect fit while others complained that the pillars were too long & needed to be shortened. There must be some variance in stock sizes between specific models because a new recoil pad I ordered wasn't even close to a good fit. Both of my pillars were too long and I had to use a file to get them to the correct length. I was just dry fitting them & using a Sharpie to mark the area that was proud of the wood & needed to be removed:



I found some 4" (10cm) stainless bolts to strengthen the grip & used a bench grinder to remove as much of one of the heads as possible:



Pat used one of his really long bits to drill a pilot hole before switching to a larger bit that was still slightly smaller than the stainless bolt:



With a slightly smaller hole, the stainless threads were able to grip the wood enough to screw the bolt in from the base of the butt to behind the tang. The ground down Phillips head was countersunk into a slightly larger hole:



So now I have about half of the items that Sir Ron suggested I install back on page 182. Drilling the crossbolt holes will give me something to do later this week. So progress! I don't know if I'm doing everything right since I'm making this up as I go along but it's been fun getting it to all fit together tightly.