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Any idea if Hornady will do another production run of 375 Ruger brass in the future?
Or will they just stick to the money and make ammo?

Yes, that makes the comparison a temporal mirror image.
The .375 Ruger vs .375 H&H is the left-handed isomer,
and the .458 WinMag versus .458 Lott is the right-handed isomer,
just to mix the analogy a little more.

Also, just to spread the word to those wrong-thinkers who deny the .458 WinMag,
and never look at the currently 190-page thread devoted to the King of Cartridges,
here is the latest snippet:

Jack Lott just became more understandable regarding his suicide.
1. He used a pre-existing .450 Watts Magnum reamer
2. in a pre-existing SAAMI .458 WM rifle,
3. trimmed the brass 0.050" shorter, and voila, named the "new" cartridge for himself.
Then he developed the backstory.
4. Did not tell that his first shot at a cape buffalo in 1959, with his new .458 WM M70 African, was a gut shot with the 510-gr RNSP.
5. Did not tell that his second shot with the 500-gr FMJ "Solid" from WRAC deformed and went squirrely because of the excessive muzzle velocity generated by the SAAMI .458 WM.
6. Exaggerated the extent of his injuries from the sick buffalo for sympathy and as raison d'etre for more velocity with crummy bullets that were not able to withstand the warp speed of the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Sextuple Stolen Valor.
Victims of it were James Watts, the .458 Winchester Magnum, and all of us.
Oh the shame of it all.

Sir Phil,
You got that a little wrong.

You should have said when both cartridges are loaded to their SAAMI specifications, as Hornady would do,
not "AT EQUAL PRESSURES."

That is 60,000 psi MAP for the .458 Winchester Magnum and 3.340" COL limit.
That is 62,500 psi MAP for the .458 Lott and 3.600" COL limit.

Hornady published data over 20 years ago showing that the .458 Lott only had a +50 fps advantage
over the .458 Winchester Magnum with SAAMI maximum pressures and COLs for both.
That is with same 500-gr Hornady bullets in same 24"-length barrels by same maker,
though the .458 Lott had 1:10" twist and the .458 Winchester Magnum had 1:14" twist,
as specified by SAAMI.
That twist difference is insignificant.

If it is now up to 60-80 fps advantage to the .458 Lott I would be surprised and have to attribute that to advances in propellants.
Nowadays the .458 Winchester Magnum might beat the .458 Lott by 60-80 fps
if both are loaded "AT EQUAL PRESSURES" and COLs.
That is what we call .458 WM+ loads.

The .458 Lott (2.8") should be renamed the .458 Watts to return the stolen valor of the .450 Watts Magnum (2.85").

Sir Ron,

Can’t comment on the lack of virtue of the 458/375 Ruger so defer to your assessment. I do know that rebore of the Alaskan Hawkeye barrel to 0.458” is infeasible due to depth of rear sight screw hole depth, per JES.

However, the 404/375 Ruger (0.423” caliber) is a significant step up in power, duplicating the Rigby and Remington 416 MVs and modern 404 Jeffery ballistics, all with the 400 grain bullets, either SPs or mono-solids depending on target. No other mod needed to the Ruger 375 Hawkeyes other than rebore. Definitive medicine on Cape buffalo. Might try the 404/375 Alaskan on elephant this summer with the unfailing 400 grain 0.423” CEB Safari Solid.

The only obstacle to that plan is the temptation to reprising with the Hawkeye African currently converted to a 458 WM. If I can get it modified to the longer mag version in the next couple of months to get true 458 WM+ 3.5” COAL the choice will be clear.

Just a reminder that the honorable .375 H&H can easily be "cleaned up" to the AI version, making it the equivalent of a .375 Wby. Still, H&H ammo can be used, if needed for Improving cartridges or in a pinch. So, a question: does that still make it inferior to the "magic" of a shorter throw from the Ruger? I've read quite a bit on this debate, but never yet on comparing any advantage of a .375 Ruger over a .375 Wby or AI.

Just some of my preliminary thoughts when I picked up my .375 H&H a year ago this month. I may yet have it AI'd. I've lots of new-unfired brass.

Yes, I know that could possibly (in theory) slow reaction times down a little for a second, third shot due to more recoil, etc. But so far, no one has ventured into a debate of any real advantage of a .375 Ruger over a .375 Wby when facing "danger in the tall grass" or bush! Why? Perceptions perhaps?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

It's all about theoat length in the 458. SAAMI throat Lott gives WM intended velocity without powder compaction. CIP throat gives the Lott much higher velocity. Weatherby freebore would be best of all for the Lott, accuracy and velocity.

https://forums.accuratereloading.co...&a=tpc&m=9201027511&s=518103

Dead men don’t talk
But there are many tales from hunters like Karamojo Bell who were adamant that shorter cartridges made a difference .

86thecat,
Besides 101 USES For A DEAD CAT, I have learned a lott since that 2009-dated thread you linked from "the other forum." My handle was RIP on that thread.
CIP homologated the .458 Lott long-throated first, and then changed it to match the SAAMI version.
Based on the drawings I have with dates of revisions:

2000 CIP: The throat on their .458 Lott was same as on the SAAMI .458 WM, tacked onto the end of chamber for 2.800" brass,
Initial CIP homologation.

2002 CIP: Same long throat as the year 2000 version .458 Lott.

2006 CIP: Short-throated .458 Lott arrives, matches exactly the SAAMI .458 Lott homologation for chamber dimensions.
Only difference is CIP MAP is 4300 bar (62,350 psi) while SAAMI MAP is 62,500 psi for .458 Lott.

First SAAMI homologation of the .458 Lott appears to have been by Art Alphin's A-Square Co. on 06-04-1998.
Blame him for the handicapping.

There has been one and only one chamber specification for the .458 Winchester Magnum, matching for both SAAMI (1956) and CIP (1984),
except SAAMI MAP is only 60,000 psi while CIP allows MAP of 4300 bar (62,350 psi).
The CIP .458 WM is actually a .458 WM+ according to Square Table parlance.

Sir Bob,
Why do a .375 H&H-AI when the .375 WbyMag has all the bugs worked out of it ?
The .375 WbyMag came first, and is now the best.

The .375 Weatherby Magnum existed as a Weatherby wildcat since 1945, long-throated.
It got a long-throated CIP homologation in 1987, then sometime after 2002,
when Weatherby revived it for resumption of factory production,
it got a throat proportionally similar to the 6.5 Creedmoor.
My Dave Manson reamer drawing from circa 2003 is specified to be according to CIP.
Parallel-sided throat length is 0.370" and diameter is 0.3756", just .0006" greater than bullet diameter.
Leade angle is 1*07'00".
CIP MAP is 4400 bar (63,800 psi) for the .375 Weatherby Magnum.
Compare that to 4300 bar (62,350 psi) for the .375 H&H Magnum.

Also, if you fire factory .375 H&H ammo in a .375 WbyMag chamber you slow it down about 100 fps and make it gentler in recoil.
Hunt with it while fire-forming brass.
My favorite .375 WbyMag shoots 0.8" for three shots at 100 yards when doing that with Remington factory ammo.
Or get the excellent Norma-made, properly head-stamped brass and gain more than 4 grains water gross capacity
compared to the W-W, R-P and Hornady brass makes.

The .375 WbyMag is my #2 favorite cartridge after the #1 .458 WinMag.
It definitely beats the .375 Ruger except for the extra 0.2" length of bolt throw.
Somehow, Hal Waugh survived decades of "Fair Chase" in Alaska as a PH,
despite his preference for an M70 .375 H&H re-chambered to the .375 WbyMag.
He called her Big Nan.
He must have had nine lives.

The 375 H&H cartridge will always have the nostalgia and historical emotions with it. I have a few of the rifles and nostalgic feelings for it. But, the 375 Ruger had my attention as soon as I was aware of it. The concept of a off the shelf or re-barreled rifle, with the same action as my 338 Winchester, with the same or slightly better ballistics, seemed good to me. I have no regrets with the cartridge.

I can say the same regarding the 416 Ruger, action fit, and no regrets. It might be a little less velocity than the 416 Remington with equal barrel lengths, but serves the same role. A little less psi, powder, and COAL. Without doing the math, I would guess 75 fps on the average, in favor of the Remington version. I am not going too excited over even 100 fps. Particularly when the 20" Ruger version will do 2500+fps with 350 grain monolithic bullets.
I am not bashing the 416 Remington. I think the 416 Hoffman and Remington are great rounds. I have a M70 416 Remington, stainless re-barrel that I like quite a bit. I do recall some of the 416 Rigby nostalgists, seemingly offended by these cartridges.

I'm not a particularly nostalgic person. Pragmatic would be a better definition of attitudes and thinking. And within reason, I've had to restrain my wants to economical realities. I could have been a professor or more likely a scientist of sorts. But being born on the East Coast of Canada during the Great Depression, my father being a very intelligent man was advanced above others in the same circumstances - a commercial fisherman with uncertain winter weather and markets: meaning he couldn't afford university fees for his youngest son, though qualified. I went to a theological school instead, with some help and it was significantly cheaper, and I'm not complaining as I know God had his own plan for my existence on Planet Earth. BUT, all that to say being a pastor in country churches in the 1950s and '60s "Down East" wasn't the most lucrative "business" in a temporal sense. Not complaining but just explaining that I've not been able to indulge my "senses" as many have.

But what I have, and have had, has been sufficient for study and learning the arts of handloading and hunting, for which I give God thanks - even though many in my rank would consider it overindulgence.

Sir Ron, thanks for your elaborations. Our best gunsmith has retired. I'm now searching for another who would be capable of making my .375 H&H into a AI or Wby. My preference would be the Weatherby, but, rightly or wrongly, I figured any local smith would likely have an AI reamer, maybe not a Wby. Then I already have lots of Rem brass in H&H - don't want to go to the bother, expense and uncertainty of finding Wby brass.

All this begs the question: Those who have argued as a main point that manipulation of a Ruger .375 could, in theory, be more of a "life saver" if confronted by and angry bull or bear than a .375 H&H, so I ask again: Why is that argument raised in regard to the H&H and NOT the Wby or Ai- because the main complaint of the longer action being slowness of operation compared to the Ruger?

In anticipation. . .

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I have a Rem XCR II I had rechambered from 375 H&H to 375 Weatherby. The rifle came from the factory with QC issues, rough chamber, extractor too large. I had my gunsmith, Kevin Weaver, rechamber it to 375 Weatherby. No regrets. It shoots 300g A-Frames at 2800 fps, 350g Woodleigh HD SPs at 2550 fps and factory 375 H&H 300g A-Frames at 2450 (which is what I used to take my brown bear). The rifle, unloaded with scope weighs 7 1/2 lbs. Recoil with 375 Weatherby factory or handloads is a bit snappy. With 375 H&H factory loads, it's a pussycat.

All this begs the question: Those who have argued as a main point that manipulation of a Ruger .375 could, in theory, be more of a "life saver" if confronted by and angry bull or bear than a .375 H&H, so I ask again: Why is that argument raised in regard to the H&H and NOT the Wby or Ai- because the main complaint of the longer action being slowness of operation compared to the Ruger?

In anticipation. . .

Bob
www.bigbores.ca[/quote]

Speed of operation is not simply a theory. Hunters from WDM “Karamojo” Bell to modern African PH and professional cullers like Richard Harland have addressed it and I speak for personal experience of having jousted with wounded bears for over 40 years.
The primary reason heavy double rifles remain popular is due to their abilities to make a quick second shot and those of us who choose to use and rely on bolt rifles base our opinions on real life experience.

Speed of operation is not simply a theory. Hunters from WDM “Karamojo” Bell to modern African PH and professional cullers like Richard Harland have addressed it and I speak for personal experience of having jousted with wounded bears for over 40 years.
The primary reason heavy double rifles remain popular is due to their abilities to make a quick second shot and those of us who choose to use and rely on bolt rifles base our opinions on real life experience.[/quote]

Not to argue the point with you Phil, as a pro who has had to go into the thick stuff to deal with wounded BBs, but with those, who, like myself, are not pros, but have pushed the argument that it's faster for a follow-up than the slightly longer actions: :.416 Rem vs the .416 Ruger, etc. I seriously doubt that most have the experience or need to tell the difference - yet they push that point. . . . Have they practiced enough or have had to deal with a life or death situation where a difference would be noticable? It seems to me that we need to practice with what we (the amateurs) have to the point of auto responses without thinking about it. The client is not dealing with a wounded buff, lion or BB on his/her own! The're very thankful to have competent pros beside them if things go sideways - like yourself.

But thanks for sharing your experience.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

A semi auto is faster than any bolt action. If the speed required to cycle the action is super important then the semi auto is the spedd king.

A semi auto is faster than any bolt action. If the speed required to cycle the action is super important then the semi auto is the speed king.

Not to argue the point with you Phil, as a pro who has had to go into the thick stuff to deal with wounded BBs, but with those, who, like myself, are not pros, but have pushed the argument that it's faster for a follow-up than the slightly longer actions: :.416 Rem vs the .416 Ruger, etc. I seriously doubt that most have the experience or need to tell the difference - yet they push that point. . . . Have they practiced enough or have had to deal with a life or death situation where a difference would be noticable? It seems to me that we need to practice with what we (the amateurs) have to the point of auto responses without thinking about it. The client is not dealing with a wounded buff, lion or BB on his/her own! The're very thankful to have competent pros beside them if things go sideways - like yourself.

But thanks for sharing your experience.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca[/quote]

And yet Darcy Echols will happily build and chamber DG cartridges on M70s.

Bob, I suppose being able to capitalize on any advantage the shorter bolt throw, would vary and be user specific. Though, I cannot see the potential to do so as a negative. I would also "assume", that the person that picks up / handles a rifle a day or week prior to "season" is probably handling a 3.340" or shorter type cartridge. To most, the 375 H&H is an "elephant gun". I would guess the operation of a bolt throw the same as their 270 Winchester or 30-06 would have an advantage.

The overall compactness of the Ruger rifles in the 375 Ruger, compared to my M70 375 H&H was an attractant. That is including the original 23" blued & walnut 375 Ruger. The 20" stainless was better yet, to me. And, I found out the 375 Rugers did not need "special powders" to perform as advertised. The "special powders" fallacy was bantered about quite a bit.

Purely a personal preference use, but the 375 Ruger is a pretty well designed and performing cartridge.

www.bigbores.ca[/quote]


www.bigbores.ca[/quote]

And yet Darcy Echols will happily build and chamber DG cartridges on M70s.[/quote]

D’Arcy will build whatever caliber the client requests and pays for. The vast majority of his clients accrued their wealth by means other than hunting.
Although I know of one African PH who ordered a 375 Ruger