Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Sir Jerry,
Enaa baasee' for the reply.
Ms. Piggy Warthog and the XERO had a good time.
They want to do it again.
Back to AA-2230 and AA-2460
in the Hornady .458 WM 2.5" brass cases for .458 WM+ loads
and in the Hornady .458 Lott 2.8" brass for .458 WW loads.
A mere 2500 fps MV is all that is desired, whether from 2.5" or 2.8" case
with the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
Ditto the 400-gr CEB brass FN.
Never know when a herd of fentanyl-packing pachyderms might invade the southern border.

Ms. Piggy may have the handicap of about minus 50 fps MV due to the longer chamber,
but maybe she can overcome that with some extra powder.
At least there is some use for the 2.8" brass without having to cut it down to 2.5".
Just making lemonade from the lemon.

Sir Ron,
I agree with Sir Jerry! No Pun Intended!

Just Rippin at it!

Long Live the Square Table!

HS 58

Enaa baasee' Sir Tony.

Ms. Piggy is a .458 Watts Winchester 2.8".
Her throat has 0.1582" longer free travel of bullet than a SAAMI .458 Lott.
But there is zero parallel-sided free-bore, all of that free travel is in a gradually tapering leade
ending at 0.458"-diameter first touch of the bullet by rifling.

Right cylinder slug jump to contact for three chamberings:

.458 Winchester Magnum 2.500" (SAAMI homologation): 0.6725"

.458 Lott 2.800" (SAAMI homologation): 0.2143"

.458 Watts Winchester 2.8" (R.I.P. homologation): 0.3725"

I hereby relinquish the .458 Watts Express 2.7" idea.
The .458 Watts Winchester 2.8" takes over now as simply the .458 Watts Express: .458 WE

Will be letting rip again with Ms. Piggy Warthog using some .458 Lott loads
from data of bullet makers like Barnes, Hornady, Woodleigh, Federal or others
where the specified bullets and powder match what I have on hand.
Need to get rid of all those obsolete bullets, making way for
the 400-gr CEB Safari Solid and the 404-gr Shock Hammer,
at a nice 2500 fps.
One planet, one rifle, the .458 WM.
Or make do with the .458 WE if you were foolish in youth and re-chambered your .458 WM to .458 L.
Make lemonade.
Don't squeal all the way home like the other little piggy, "wee wee wee."
Think "makin' bacon and lemonade, what a treat !"

Maybe a Sierra, .458 350 grain HPBT Matchking for your Creedmoor rifle. Supposedly good for 1-12" twist, with a .805 bc.

I imagine a .458 WM warmly loaded with 400 grain brass solids might make a very effective anti-materiel deterrent...

Sir Larry,
In what multiverse ?
Maybe a .458-.375 sabot ?

😱

Sir Bevan,
Let us call it the Gamefield-Dominator/Border-Patrol-Enforcer Bullet.
All-purpose Bullet.
Swiss-Army-Knife Bullet ...

Unfortunately it would have to be a sabot.
I misread their labeling. Disappointed abounds.
Dang, I thought it was a .458". Scratch that idea.
I guess the single load CEB types will be the option. Unless there is are other custom options.

Yep, i pulled my model 70 458 WM+ out of the safe last night and gave it a good wipe down, bet those 404 Hammers at 2520 will still tear the top out of a Redfield diamond at 100.

I have a slightly 'svelter' twin to miss piggy, 416 Taylor, they are ugly, but, it sure dont take pretty to save ass hide.

Sir Jerry,
That is a humorous way to put it, saving ass hide, touche'.
Ms. Piggy ought to be good for that even if she is not much to look at.
Ms. Piggy the .458 Watts Express.

I am going to pull the old bullets from that old Hornady .458 Lott ammo,
dump the powder, de-prime and FL size the "new" brass, prime with F215
and load them with maximum manual loads for the .458 Lott, with bullets and powders matching the manual.

Maximum .458 Lott loads are starting loads for the .458 WE.
Then we find the best-balance 400&404 loads for the .458 WE at a modest +2500 fps.
Maybe same as your 2520 fps loads for the .458 WM+ 404-gr Shock Hammer.
I am guessing AA-2460 may be tops in the .458 WE.

LOL, you bet Sir Ron, my 458's are like lunchmeat, always ready!

Correct, 2460 powder for the win, you'll get the virgin piggy tuned up and singing in no time, i'm still waiting on that smartassed welder bud of mine to take me up on the offer of multiple buffalo, elephant, hippo and rhino hunts, he's been pretty quiet lately!

I'm shooting the 404 grain Shock Hammer @ 3.383" COAL in Norma brass Federal 215 primer ahead of 85 grains of AA2230 new manufactured powder for 2523 FPS. This load may be a bit over SAAMI MAP, but has worked fine in my rifle with repeated loads in the same brass


480 gr Hornady 2198FPS 75 gr AA2230

480 gr Hornady and 2232 FPS with 76 gr AA2230


There are no flies on AA2230 in the 458 Win mag+

And no flies on this: June 11/19;

480 DGX over 82 grs H4895 = 2353 fps/5900 ft-lbs corrected to MV. Ruger No1H, 24" barrel, Rem brass, WLRM, COL = 3.61", Temp = 70*F. Ele. 900 ft.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Excellent .458 WM+ loads from Sirs John and Bob.
The .458 Watts Express should handle those loads just fine.
Might take a little more powder and kick a little harder to get same MV as Sir John,
just like with a .458 Lott henceforth to be known as the .458 L, L for Loser.
But Sir Bob's load should translate directly into the .458 WE with very similar velocity and pressure.
That H4895 will be vying with AA-2460 for top honors with 400-grainer, methinks.
Getting Benchmark past 2500 fps might raise pressures to .458 L levels. Oh no !







Here are Terry Wielands loads for his pet .450 Ackley Magnum with 22" Douglas barrel:



The Clymer reamer print I saw for the .450 AM showed 0.400" length of parallel-sided free-bore
of 0.460" diameter at the end of the 2.870" chamber length, then 2.5-degree leade angle.
That gives the .450 AM a longer slug jump than the .458 WE.
Maybe the extra 1-3/4" of barrel length on Ms. Piggy the .458 WE will allow her to
submaximally achieve the submaximal results of Terry Wieland's .450 AM with 22" barrel.
To quote Ms. Piggy (she speaks French): "WEE WEE WEE"
And I say let her rip, heh heh heh.

But we will not be breaking 2800 fps with Sierra 300-gr Pro Hunter hollow points, since they vaporized at 2800 fps from a .458 WM+.

Timeline:
1939: James Watts standing in a creek near Black Rapids, Alaska shoots charging grizzly with .375 H&H Winchester Model 70 and
bear claws Watts' .45 LC revolver off his hip as bear runs him over, then fleeing bear dies on "far side" of creek.

1945: At end of WWII, James Watts begins writing to WRAC asking if they can make a .458/.375 H&H M70 Winchester,
and begins visiting Buhmiller, Ackley and Barnes for components.

1949: James Watts with enabler-gunsmith Harvey Anderson creates and fires first .450 Watts Magnum rifle
with 2.850" maximum case length, soon followed by 2.5"-cased .450 Watts Short.

1950: Harvey Anderson copyrights .450 Watts Magnum name.

1954: James Watts signs release clearing WRAC to develop .458 Winchester Magnum.

1956: .458 Winchester Magnum is released upon the world.

1959: Jack Lott gut-shoots cape buffalo with 510-grain .458 WinMag factory load, then continues hunting with same cartridge for more than a decade.

1971: Jack Lott uses .450 Watts chamber reamer and a SAAMI .458 WinMag rifle to whip out the .458 Lott, and 22 more years pass ...

1993: R.I.P. Jack Lott.

June 4, 1998, a day that will live in infamy: SAAMI homologation of the .458 Lott as engineered by Art Alphin of A-Square.

2002: Hornady and Ruger produce ammunition and rifles for SAAMI .458 Lott, and 22 more years pass ...

2024: The .458 Watts Express (2.8") gets righteous, 75 years after the .450 Watts Magnum (2.85") started it all.

I have a Lottite calling me "darling" over at AH forum,
so I am having some fun with the facts over there:

hoytcanon,

No need for you to call me darling for your own pleasure, I am not into that kind of stuff.
You may call me "Sir" or just "hey you" will do.

When CIP first homologated the .458 Lott pretender, they tacked the full SAAMI .458 WinMag throat
onto the chamber for 2.800" brass.
For some reason that did not last long after the SAAMI short-throated version came out.
CIP changed to match SAAMI.

SAAMI short throat .458 Lott allowed pressures and velocities to get up to 62,500 psi and 2250 fps with a 500-grain bullet and 3.600" COL.
SAAMI .458 WinMag was doing 60,000 psi and 2200 fps with same 500-grain bullet and 3.340" COL.
That was with same powders (minimal or no compression) in same barrel length of 24". Sure, the SAAMI .458 Lott twist was 1:10"
(an obvious sign of Art Alphin's A-Square shenannigans as a member of SAAMI)
while the SAAMI .458 WinMag has a twist of 1:14".
But that twist difference is insignificant.
Going from 1:14" to 1:7" has been found to cause less than one-half of one percent difference in velocity and pressure by military artillery studies.
Faster twist theoretically may increase pressure and decrease velocity,
I have .458 rifles of both 1:10" and 1:14" and no discernible effects.
I save the 1:18" and 1:20" rifles for being gentler on cast bullets.

If you use the original CIP long-throated .458 Lott in a bolt action rifle meant for 3.6" COL,
you are wasting effective case capacity of the long throat, and at same time imposing the pressure lowering effects of same throat.
You end up with a slow rifle.
Your supposed 2300 fps 500-grainer will not break 2200 fps MV.
I had one of those once, an early CZ 550 Magnum .458 Lott chambered at the factory with the earliest CIP reamer. Shot 500-grainers at about 2150 fps instead of the factory standard of 2250 fps.

It is really silly to take a 2.5" case meant for use in a 3.4" magazine length
then add 0.3" to brass length yet add only 0.2" to magazine length.
Use a 2.8" case in a 3.6" magazine. Ha ha.

The old standard bullet nose projections have to be shortened, bullets made more blunt, or the bullets seated more deeply, or drastically lightened by overall shortening of bullet,
or the brass trimmed short.
It is what it is, maybe some of it not a bad thing.

If you want to use a long-throated .458 Lott, you have to use a single shot to get full benefit.
And then you will probably have to change the powders, use more of a slower powder, get even greater recoil than what is generated by merely increasing bullet MV.

I think the optimum would be a 2.7" case in 3.6" magazine,
like the 2.5" case in a 3.4" magazine.
But even the 2.5"-cased SAAMI .458 WinMag can be loaded in the CZ 550 Magnum or Ruger No. 1
to a COL of 3.780" or 3.760" with a 500-grain TSX crimped in the 5th/last cannelure/groove on that bullet. Individual lots of that bullet have varied by about 0.020" in overall bullet length over the years.
2342 fps with that bullet was my top load in a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber with 24-7/8" barrel length, CZ barrel on a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 action.

The shorter 500-grain TBSS at 3.58" COL does +2400 fps in a 24" barreled Ruger No. 1, factory barrel.
That is a non-SAAMI handload called the .458 WM+ in a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber.

.458 WinMag rifles X 6 and a 7th in the works
.458 B&M with throat lengthened = .458 B&M+ X 1
.458 Watts Express (.458 WM rechambered for 2.8" brass) X 1
.450 Barnes Supreme (like a .450 Ackley Magnum from the 1950s) X 1
.458/.416 Ruger wildcat X 1
.45-70 Elko Magnum (.45-100-2.6" Sharps with SAAMI .458 WinMag full throat tacked on) X 2
.450 NE 3-1/4" (rechambered .458 Lott stainless/laminate Ruger No. 1-H) X 1
.458/.338 Lapua Magnum (.460 Weatherby barrel set back and rechambered) X 1
.450 Dakota SIG Arms Magnum Mauser 98, Mauser Banner, Prechtl action X 1

The wood on the last one is too pretty to abuse, so I limit it to .458 WM+ equivalent loads.
It weighs 9.5 pounds unloaded, no scope, express sights only.
I have .458 WinMags that are field ready with scope, ammo, and sling that weigh less and are shorter in length.

That may be why I am working on my seventh SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum that shoots .458 WM+ handloads,
or the standard Hornady factory ammo , 500-gr DGX-Bonded and DGS, that does 2140 fps from a 24" barrel.
My favorite handload is 400-gr to 404-gr bullet at +2500 fps and 3.38" COL.
Mild for 23" or 24" or 25" barrel lengths in SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag.
My 7th .458 WinMag will have a 20" barrel to prove the load can be hotted up to 2500 fps in that barrel length: .458 WM+

All the Knights are humbled in awe, including this one! You may never hear another peep from me, Sir Ron!

You have been most gracious with all of us - me in particular.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

For sure. Great write up!

Sir Bob,
What the heck, we better hear more from you or a search party will be sent out !

Methinks the tide is turning over at AH, and the Lottite flotsam is washing out to sea.

I need to copy some of it here:

Q: "What do you consider the best factory ammo for the 458? Hornaday since it gets to 2150fps (sic) or Federal still at 2090fps but with Swift A-Frames
if you don't handload?"

A: Hornady is excellent for uniformity (St.Dev. for a 5-shot group being on the order of 3 fps)
and in actually delivering 500-grainers at 2140 fps MV from a 24" .458 WinMag barrel.
The DGS and DGX-Bonded are good bullets but there are better bullets.

Buffalo Bore Ammunition has excellent .458 WinMag ammo with a 400-gr TSX advertised at 2250 fps in Tim Sundles' 18" custom rifle and 2247 fps in his 22" factory rifle.
I tried it and got 2336 fps MV in a 24" factory Ruger No. 1 barrel,
and 2350 fps MV in a 25" Shilen barrel.

Buffalo Bore also loads 450-gr TSX and a 450-gr copper FN solid at advertised 2200 fps MV.

Here is one I hope somebody reports on:

.458 Winchester Magnum – Aria Ballistic Engineering
www.ariaballisticengineering.org www.ariaballisticengineering.org

404 Gr. Hammer Bullet – “Shock Hammer” @ 2,550 FPS / 5,832 LBS / TKO – 67 Fantastic big Game bullet with great extended range capabilities. This bullet is a perfect all copper fragmenting and deep penetrating Game stopper!!! (20 Round Box)
$117.50 (Excluding Tax)


450 Gr. Cutting Edge – Brass Solid @ 2,450 FPS / 5,996 LBS / TKO- 72 Great deep penetrating, bone crushing and accurate Big or dangerous game load! (20 Rounds)
$115.00 (Excluding Tax)


500 Gr. Hornady – DGS @ 2,200 FPS / 5,372 LBS / TKO – 72 This is a great flat nosed profile solid with copper clad steel jacket, absolutely one of the deepest penetrating bullets with true dangerous or heavy Game capabilities! (20 Rounds)
$117.00 (Excluding Tax)

etc.

You are missing out if you don't handload the .458 WinMag.
CEB and Hammer bullets galore.