Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Also from AH,

Q: "What is the go to Hodgdon or IMR powder for it? Those seem to be the only brands I can sort of reliably find."

A: Hodgdon from faster to slower below:
H4198
H322
Benchmark
H335 (ball)
H4895
Varget

Except for H335, those are all extruded "EXTREME" powders of good Thermo-Ballistic-Independence,
Benchmark maybe the best of all in regards to TBI.
H335 ain't bad in any way, however.

AA-2230 and AA-2460 fall right between H335 and H4895.
They are supposed to be formulated for improved TBI in lots since 2016.
I think AA-2230 is made from AA-2460 with half of the balls flattened to make it burn a little faster
and pack into a smaller space.

Anything good in a .223/5.56 is good in the .458 WinMag, so the black rifle fad has been a boon to the .458 WinMag.
From AA-5744 to CFE 223, for light to heavy bullets.


If I had to pick one powder it would be H4895.
You can use it at 60% of a maximum load and requires no filler, for all sorts of light loads.
You can also use it at 110% compressed after drop tube and get well over 2600 fps with a 400-grainer:

You use the maximum Woodleigh manual load for the .458 Lott with 400-gr PPSN: 87 grains COMPRESSED H4895

Crimp the bullet in the Woodleigh cannelure for the .458 Lott.
Roll another cannelure onto the Woodleigh bullet 0.3" below the factory cannelure, using a CH4D Cann-Tool.
Then load the .458 Lott and the .458 WM+ with same powder and same degree of compression to same COL: 3.425"
The Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN has a short nose projection of only 0.625" in the .458 Lott load with seating depth of 0.530".
In the .458 WM+ load, the nose projection is 0.925" and seating depth is only 0.230" with this stubby cup & core bullet.
This is just a stunt to prove a point.
I did it.

Woodleigh manual result for a .458 Lott with unspecified barrel length, probably 24" = 2570 fps
My result for .458 WM+ load in 25" Shilen barrel with SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber = 2627 fps MV

Whooped the .458 Lott again.

Stay tuned for a review of the article by Ganyana in AFRICAN HUNTER Vol. 12 No.3:
"THE .458 ... A Cartridge I Love to Hate!
This was sent to me by Sir Woods.
I did not have that issue, but I did have Vol. 12 No. 6 with another article by Don Heath:
"The .458 Lott One of Africa's More Versatile Cartridges?"

I like that question mark at the end of the title. Don Heath did that, not me.
Ganyana was the pseudonym of Don Heath.
It means "one born with the gift of patience"
or "King after a long war" or some such in Swahili.

Parried another Lottite thrust in a joust at AH:

I think (CENSORED Lottite's handle) is upset that he cannot load his .458 Lott to as short a length as the .458 WinMag,
yet the SAAMI/CIP .458 WinMag chamber can be loaded to longer COL than the current SAAMI/CIP .458 Lott chamber.
Shooting non-SAAMI ammo in a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber is not fair, according to (CENSORED).

The biggest shame of the .458 Lott is that Jack Lott used a
1949-designed .450 Watts Magnum chamber reamer for 2.850" brass
in a .458 WinMag barrel and called it what he did, after shortening the brass to 2.800" in 1971.
Then Art Alphin came along and short-throated it for SAAMI version of 1998.
Art must have gotten the idea from his Army days when he got short-sheeted by barracks mates.
Art also stole the .510 Buhmiller Magnum and called it the .500 A-Square.





Nice article by Don Heath aka Ganyana
in AFRICAN HUNTER Vol. 12 No. 3.
Picture above from that article.

At least James Watts told WRAC in 1954 that it was good of them to call the .450 Watts Short by a new name, ".458 Winchester Magnum" finally released in 1956.
WRAC might even be responsible for throating it that way.

Also great to see "A late 1950's vintage .450 Watts magnum factory load."
Funny that the .450 Watts brass looks to have been trimmed to shorter length than the "modern .458 Lott round."

Could it be possible that some ammo factory trimmed .450 Watts Magnum brass to less than 2.850" and still called it a .450 Watts Magnum ?

I no longer weep about having mutilated a .458 WinMag by re-chambering to .458 Lott.
All it took was renaming it to ".458 Watts Express."

I am very happy with my .458 Watts Express which was made by running a SAAMI .458 Lott reamer
into a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum rifle with no set-back of the barrel.
That cleans up a SAAMI .458 Lott throat, transforming it to leade-only.
A totally new cartridge !
Slightly different and better than the original wildcat Jack Lott did.
It has chamber length of only 2.810" instead of the 2.870" chamber length of the first ".458 Lott."
Trimming my brass to 2.790" makes more sense.

The .458 Watts Express and the SAAMI .458 Lott are both better for imitating a .410 shotgun.
You can get a bit more birdshot into the 2.8" case than the 2.5" case.

From AFRICAN HUNTER Vol. 12 No. 6 by Don Heath aka Ganyana
"The .458 Lott One of Africa's more versatile cartridges?"





Great for rats or snakes in your tent.
But even a .458 WinMag can handle enough birdshot for that.

Don Heath continued about the .458 Lott:



Very interesting is that he used a lathe to turn the old flat-based, non-cannelured 400-gr X-bullet into
a boat-tailed version of 300-gr weight:



Here are Ganyana's .458 Lott loads, all of which can be equaled or surpassed by the .458 WM+, of course:



Standard SAAMI .458 WinMag loads with powders and bullets of today are no practical difference from a SAAMI .458 Lott.
Still no love lost for a Lottite, I am sure.

Years ago, I lived in a big rambling 1891 Victorian house but as I got closer to retirement and the kids moved out, I downsized to a much smaller & cozier place. I really like it but part of the trade-off was I have limited room available to me for some of my hobbies. Since I mainly hunt and don't shoot large quantities of rounds at the range, I decided that I would continue to get by with commercial ammo since my needs were not too demanding and this was an adequate solution. However, this has gradually started to change. Now that I have more time to do what I want, I find myself shooting & hunting a lot more. Another thing that has piqued my interest is the usage of larger calibers (e.g. 9.3, 375 & 458) for a wider range of applications which obviously makes handloading not only more attractive but pretty much a necessity if I really wanted to explore & test these caliber's potential.

So with this new rearranging of my priorities, I decided to give reloading a try. One of my early purchases was the Garmin Xero which looks like a really nice tool to use. I'm looking forward to getting out to the range again now that hunting season has ended & the weather is getting really nice. But unfortunately, I wasn't paying close enough attention to the details of this new pastime & I think I may have miscalculated a bit. The increase of ammo on the shelves and what "appeared" to be the availability of needed supplies gave me the impression that some of the critical shortages of the recent past had abated enough where it was possible to attempt to get started with this new hobby.

But once I seriously started to shop for presses, scales & other supplies, the fact that it appeared that I could only get large quantities of needed primers from sites that required payment in BitCoins & via Zelle gave me a moment of pause.

It looks like there may still be some obstacles for a newbie to start loading 458 WM cartridges.


Since my new 458 WM barrel hasn't arrived from McGowen yet & I have zero 458 WM ammo, I might as well buy some from these guys for initial testing & plinking. It'll be a few months before I'll be able to let you know how it goes but it's great that getting the 404gr Shock Hammer is an available option.


I just got finished reading that thread. It appears that referring to a 458 Lott as a 458 Loser was the correct bait to get a bite. It's nice to see you making new friends on other forums.

LOL, damn! give em hell Sir Ron ; ]

Sir Ron - the shot capsule got my attention - do you have any experience with those? I would imagine a capsule full of #9s would be useful for rats. Not sure any other cartridge can span that far - mice to elephants and anything in between!

If it’ll handle a load of Morton Iodized Salt I could retire my Bug-A-Salt & declare my 458 WM the undisputed all-around weapon of choice. Or is shooting the 458 WM indoors finally taking things a step too far?

Sir Thomas,

I have the shot capsules, have not tried them yet, but did try 400-grains of No. 7-1/2 shot
with a Circle Fly Nitro Card wad over powder (18.5 grains of BLUE DOT)
and an inverted gas check over shot.
Did OK in the .458 WinMag, but might do better with shot capsules and smaller shot, OK for mice.

Sir Darryl,
Better not retire the Bug-A-Salt.
Even a Lottite would admit the .458 WinMag might be too powerful for flyswatter use, inside home or camp tent.
Go for it outdoors !

Here is what Ganyana said about his trials with the Speer shot capsules:

"Then I tried Speer's shot capsules intended for use in the .45 Colt revolver round.
Putting two capsules in a case proved a failure. One opened and the other punched a neat .45 caliber hole in the target.
Loading the supplied wad on top of the powder, filling the case with shot, and seating the rest of the capsule
(again filled with shot) to form a 'bullet', so the round would feed from the magazine,
produced acceptable results with a load of 15grn S265. The best results though,
came by combining a .410 cup on top of the powder
and the top half of the Speer capsule squeezed in to form the 'bullet' and hold extra shot.
The shotgun wad took up a fair amount of space, so I could only get 300grn of No 7 pellets into these rounds,
but the cup and capsule provided better protection of the shot from the rifling,
and the pattern was better out to fifteen metres despite the lighter payload."

I will have to try that in the .458 Watts Express, like the .458 Lott 300 grains of No. 7 shot,
versus my way for 400 grains of No. 7-1/2 (or No. 9 ?) in the mighty .458 WinMag.
Heh-heh-heh.

Ganyana reported zeroing his .458 Lott 450-gr TSX bullet (2380 fps) for 50 meters.
Then his single, hardcast lead roundball (.460" diameter, 150 grains) load was spot on at 20 meters.
800 fps from 12 grains of South African powder called MS200.
Higher velocity and the ball skids in rifling and accuracy goes south.
"25 yard load at best."
Touted as a small game load, feeds well from magazine too.
"To make up one of these rounds, resize the case -- bell the mouth slightly; prime; tip in the powder;
and seat the ball tightly by finger pressure alone. The case does not need resizing after shooting with such light powder charges,
and a simple `Lee Loader' de-capping punch and a primer seating base is all the equipment required for endless fun and practice."

I bet even a .458 Winchester Magnum could be used for that.





My first screw up here was in using three of the .451" balls with a gas check under them in a .458 WinMag with 18.5 grains of BLUE DOT.



Those were soft swaged lead balls of too small diameter.

Hardcast roundball of 0.460" diameter at 800 fps seems to be the recipe for accuracy,
for head shots on guineafowl and squirrels and such.
The Garmin XERO will make that easier to arrive at.

.460 ball of softer alloy likely would be better Sir Ron. A good bump in the rear from your pistol/shotgun powder to fill the grooves would be better than even a small skid of a harder ball as it hits the riflings. In either case; great experiment!
Best regards!
F01

Sir Ron, this thread continues to provide useful insights into so many issues about the 458 Win Mag. Thanks for your continued efforts.

I had read about isolated ignition problems in the early years but I did not realise that this was a persistent, widespread problem (in Africa) over many years. Shelf life of 458 Win Mag ammo was a huge concern as savvy users insisted on freshly produced ammo. This raises a few questions:

1. Did other cartridges suffer the same problem or was it isolated to the 458 Win Mag. You only ever hear of 458 Win Mag ammo problems.

2. I suspect it had to do with powder compression and perhaps the primers used that might have lead to ignition problems. In those days magnum rifle primers probably weren’t widely available and more to the point, did Winchester even make a magnum rifle primer back in the day?

These days there are hotter primers for improved ignition and more suitable powders that can be loaded without compression, with some also being temperature stable. Add to this a wide range of better bullets and the 458 Win Mag is a better choice today than at any time in the past.

Sir Dennis,
I like your thinking, and lacking a roundball mould for .460" hardcast alloy,
I am trying the .457" swaged lead ball from Hornady but powder-coat painting them to at least 0.460" diameter.
I have a batch of them done already, lying fallow, meant for either the .458 WinMag or the .458 Watts Express.

Seems the most practical thing to do for a squib load is Ganyana's single ball at 800 fps,
.460" ball with 12 grains of SOMCHEM MS200
or same charge of one of these as a stand-in:
ADI: AP50N
Hodgdon: HP-38
Alliant: Red Dot
IMR: PB
Winchester: W231
Accurate Arms: AA2
Vihtavuori: N320

With just a pinch of powder, a primer, and roundball seated by finger pressure only,
there is nothing to confuse a Garmin XERO.
Fun fun fun.

Michael McCourry has informed me of leading problems with the snakeshot loads.
Never knew the leading could be so bad, but after only a few shots it decreases MV and changes POI of hi-power loads.
My gascheck and birdshot sandwich loads would surely be awful, unless the gaschecks leading and following the shot did some scraping of lead ?
Emergency use only for snakes and mice.
Each snake load followed by a hi-power scrubber bullet.
Insurance shot on varmint.
Most good PHs will fire their rifles one shot once a month to clean them,
whether the rifle needs it or not !

I do have some No. 9 Lawrence Brand Magnum shot, about 2 pounds of it.
150-grains of that shot is the most I can cram into one of the Speer .45-cal shot capsules with cap installed.
Maybe I'll be happy with a light charge of the tiny shot if it patterns well at 10 feet to 10 yards !

Amen, Sir Joe.
No flies on the .458 WinMag nowadays.
A 2006 "Heavy Magnum" .458 WinMag load from Hornady was advertised for 500-gr RN InterBond at 2260 fps MV.
Ganyana tested the ammo and chronographed it at 2230 fps (instrumental I presume) in a Zimbabwean .458 WinMag.
Funny thing Ganyana said was that Hornady told him the shelf life of the HEAVY MAGNUM loads was only six months.
After that period of time no guarantees. Ha ha ha.
That was a short-lived offering by Hornady factory, pun intended.

The 64 year-old WRAC factory .458 WinMag ammo that I tested, made in 1957, was still doing +2080 fps with 500-grainer,
same as the H. P. White test of same factory load that was published in 1961.

Sir Ron,
Powder life is one of those topics that bring out the full range of opinions very quickly in gun forums.
I find it logically and observably true that not only do, and or did, some powders have issues but heavy compression is an additive problem to powder life.
Heat also is poison in the mixture.
My one example is 65 grains of h414 in an ‘06 case turned solid in around 5 years. At least that is when I found it…
I have an old 30-06 that used that much behind a Barnes 165 x to get up to speed. Very accurate and my father in law slew whitetail with it quite successfully. After he passed away I was going to shoot up the last of the ammo and had both a near squib and a full failure to fire. Pulled a bullets to find a solid mass of “melted” powder.
Best regards
F01

Sir Dennis,

Brings new meaning to "Better living through chemistry" i.e. propellant chemistry.
Colossal flubs have happened.
$#IT HAPPENS, even in a .30-06 loaded with H414, eh ?
Could've happened to any cartridge if the factory was run by Democrats.

Trail Boss is a little faster and way fluffier than MS200.
10 to 12 grains of it might be suitable for a Ganyana Ball at 800 fps ?

The Bubba in me is wanting to test some new concoctions.
I drove 6 road trips back and forth between Lower 48 and Alaska during 1985 to 1994 period,
from KY, MO, and FL.
Somewhere along the way I came into possesson of a circa 1993 Canadian publication that really caught my attention:





I also have a 1954 GUN DIGEST article about the ".458 MCW Express"
(wildcat cartridge used in the sabot experiments above, along with the .458 WM)
that totally ignores the 450 Watts Magnum of 1949, just like Jack Lott did.
Now that we have the .458 Watts Express to run side-by-side with the .458 WM+, life is good.

Well Sir Ron,
If you come up with a sabot material, I have some 220 Hornady solids…
F01