Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

65gn of H414/760 would be a hot load in any .30/06 I tested with a 165gn bullet.
Most topped out at 59-61 grains and even then, velocity was leaning on high 2900's.
Hope no-one attempts to load this high.

Sir Dennis,

I have no hope of .458/.308 sabots unless I make my own like Bosselmann did.
His article is fascinating.
I am thinking I might have to settle for experimenting with the .45/.35 muzzleloader sabots.

The time has come for me to pick my termite hill to die on: 400-gr CEB solid and 404-gr Shock Hammer to do it all.
That would be for 2500 fps MV (or a little faster) in the .458 WM+ or .458 Watts Express.
Even a SAAMI .458 Loser can do that too, if we must practice DEI or DIE.

I am limiting my serious .458 hi-power loads to that bullet weight class, 400-ish grains, which I find most interesting.
New bullet technology that is thoroughly reliable and all in for all tasks.
Any other handloading is just for yucks, including the ball & shot & sabot loads.

For fun, snakes, mice and tree rats where legal:















That is a .40-cal 200-gr inside the sized-down .45 ACP brass sabot.
Maybe slit the .45 ACP case with a hacksaw in hopes of changing a non-discarding into a discarding sabot.
R&D continues, just for yucks.

Last one above is a .45-.40 sabot.

Maybe try the Power Belt (plastic-skirted) .45-cal muzzleloader bullets inside a .458 WM case ?

My local range died and I am joining a better place come April Fools' Day.
Will be pulling those decrepit SAAMI .458 Loser bullets and loading up some .458 Watts Express
to shoot from the termite hill or at the new range, whichever I can get to first.

Yep, it was 4 grains over the other ‘06 in the stable. I figured all the folks on this thread know the facts of reloading etc. The powder was under heavy compression and the bullet seat at max magazine length, crimped with a Lee FCD to hold it in, and fired in a very much shot barrel with throat beyond the OAL of this bastard load. The chrono showed normal 165 grain speeds and lastly the old Pump 760 loaded and ejected just fine. Indeed nobody should attempt to replicate.
Best regards,
F01

Sir Ron,
I might have a few Barnes rn solids in 358 one you get your test load going! I’ll look and see.
F01

For all the Sirs at the Square Table, especially Sir Ron who has been so helpful in many ways in getting this done:

It finally got warm enough for my thin skin to make it to the range today - barely warm enough. I left the house at -1C/about 30F. Fifty minutes later I arrived at the range with temps around +3C (further south and closer to Lake Ontario that's always warmer than up where we live in the winter and spring. Summer is probably hottter up here because down there they get breezes off the lake. Anyway by the time I got set up (first one there) and waiting for everyone else to get their targets in place about 9:30 am, temps were up to 5-6*C. When I left 1 & 1/2 hrs later they were all the way to +10C. When I did my shooting it was somewhere between 6 - 8*C/ about 45*F. With about 15 to 20mph wind in my face I got chilled. So shooting temps were gradually warming but nonetheless cold to me after a winter of mostly indoors.

First up were those Federal factory 400gr TBBCs. I placed the Chrony so I could shoot at 50 yds. It took two to get on paper because it was last sighted for those 250gr MonoFlex at about 2685 fps, so I knew the 400s would be quite low of the sighting. Nonetheless, I put the crosshairs on center and squeezed of the one I'd disassembled and put back together again. It went "bang" and recorded the MV, but missed the target low. I tried a second that was recorded but missed low again as my thinking was to confirm a missing the target low. I aimed reticule to the top/center of the target, which recorded MV and came within 2" of center diamond, slightly right. Then the last two I overdid the correction but put two touching at near the bottom of the target. Because I was chilled, I'm planning another trip as soon as the weather starts to settle into the mid teens, then I'll make a group very slightly over center at 50 yds. As I said, the last two fired (I planned on shooting 5 total today) were touching with a spread of 0.393". There's promise there.

Here are the MVs, 1st to last shot: 2298, 2233, 2290, 2284, and 2248: corrected average to MV = 2282 fps/4624.8 ft-lbs. Recoil about 45 ft-lbs, minus the Mag-na-porting = ~40.5 ft-lbs with the rifle at 10.25 lbs with a single cartridge loaded and none in the stock cartridge holder. With 4 more +1 in chamber add 8 oz to total weight. That would add 1/2 lb to field weight but also reduce felt recoil by about 2 ft-lbs. Federal advertised the 400gr TBBC at an MV of 2250 fps, so my chronograph readings beat that by ~ 32 fps average of five.

I also fired two new loads in my .375 H&H. The first load reduced from last years load by 1 gr because it appeared to give less extreme spread: 3 into 0.963" at fifty - not great. The next load was the star of the show: 3 into 0.382" - a ragged hole. Average corrected to MV = 2847 fps from the 250gr Barnes TTSX. Pleasant to shoot. 83 grs of BIG GAME. Recoil: `41 ft-lbs with one in the chamber single loaded = 9.75 lbs. Will make some tweeks to put the group just over center at 50 yds. My bear bait will be at 40 - 50 yds from my blind. Bears are out already yet there's almost 2 months before hunting starts!

Will summarize details in tomorrow's blog with a few pics.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Good to hear about the range time !
Those factory loaded .458 400 grain Trophy Bonded bullets should make a nice hole at expected bear bait distance.

Your .375 250 grain TTSX should cover anything near or far.

Enaa baasee' Sir Bob,
The lore of the .458 Winchester Magnum is duly annotated with latest Federal Factory
Premium Safari
Trophy Bonded bear Claw 400-gr MV in 24" barrel (Ruger No. 1) at 45*F: MV = 2282 fps.




The Federal Factory ammo with old version TBBC 400-grainer was also advertised at 2250 fps MV but
in my 24" barrel (M70 Winchester) at 77*F 8-shot instrumental average = 2333fps, MV = 2345 fps for BC = 0.353.
Standard deviation for those eight shots = 23.9 fps.
As usual, we know we can do better with handloads.



At least the new TBCC seems to be a better bullet than the old one,
and they are getting closer to hitting the advertised velocity, exceeding it by a lesser amount, not bad, heh-heh-heh.
Probably can't get them as component bullets (?) for hotting up to .458 WM+.

And I've changed the intro to my post above to give due recognition to Sir Ron for all he has done to make it possible. Many thanks sir.

And my blog has just been posted with more details and a few pics of those results.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Oh LORDY Sir Ron, let those AH boys have their fun, i wouldn't soil a 458 WM Bore with plastic, hell, i'm so retarded i wont even shoot a plastic tipped bullet in any factory pre-64 model 70 or fine FN Belgian Browning!

404gr Hammers
450gr TSX
500gr Partitions
500gr Woodleigh PP's
500gr TB Solids......................Do a 458 WM bore 'very' good, and do animals VERY, VERY bad ; ]

RC, hope I don't thread drift too much, but I wanted to show you all the Woodman Arms Patriot. They use a Brux 1-18 barrel and they are .452's (don't kick me off the Roundtable).

I had to monkey around a bit sizing the 300 grain Parker's down to fit my bore since this rifle was meant for smokeless..







Ended up hunting with the 60 grain load this past season.

Took a couple coyotes and a meat deer for an old family friend.





Finally got around to shooting the last two loads I had left over before I cleaned it up and decided to check it with the Garmin.





So I guess what I am saying is the little Woodman thinks its a mini 458 Winchester

Sorry for the thread drift, but I know some of you all appreciate odd stuff now and again and it is a .45 caliber and alllllllmost a .458

Back in the 90's (doesn't seem that long ago) I playing with a few light bullets in the .458. 300gn Remington, 300gn Hornady, both kinds as they changed the ogive shape, 300gn X bullet, 400gn Woodleigh Spire Point weld Core, 400gn Speer, 400gn X bullet and 405gn Remington as well as a bunch more, 17 in all and 13 powders. Factory rounds additional.

I hit on a terrific load as many others have, so it's not an exclusive fluke on my turf, but THE load in the .458 was the Barnes 400gn X bullet loaded to 2434fps using 74gn of H 4198, Fed 215 with an OAL of 3.345". Still have rounds loaded for the right time and ready to go.

The road was muddied along the way when Barnes TSX's in 350 and 450gn were being sold online for about $20 per hundred and then you have the 250 and 300gn Barnes Cave Points designed for the .45/70, Woodleigh Weldcores in 550gn, Barnes Traditionals in 600gn and whatever else I have forgotten, but the point it, for a supposed dangerous game cartridge, the amount of options is incredible. Although most here will take medium game in volume, compared to the larger animals we'd all like a crack at, it's nice to know we always have the right cartridge in our hands anywhere grass grows and there is a bit scrub to hide behind.

We are at a point of dilema as US users are limited by game laws and seasons and costs that prohibit much hunting and Aussies who can hunt 365 days minus snake days, are limited by bullet option and handloading costs which are around double what the US is complaining about. Put the 2 together, and we'll get by, so I am glad Mike started this thread and Ron seized upon it as an outlet for himself for consolidation of information.

If such enthusiasm was done across each caliber AND their cartridges as regardless of contribution errors, these are mutually exclusive, gun writing would become largely superfluous.

One thing is for certain, there never has been a writer who knew more than a fraction of that contained within this thread. Colaboration is its finest form. Well done all and most importantly, not done yet.

Well said!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Something I was curious about: would the momentum of Sir Ron's "400"gr TBBC at 2345 fps be nearly the same as the momentum "400"gr TBBC from my Ruger No.1 at 2282 fps since the "400" TBBC from Sir Ron's tests were not really 400gr but 390.5 gr and mine were 10 grs heavier at 400.5 grs. It turns out that, indeed, the momentum of each load is nearly identical. Mine averaged 2282 fps for five, and if Sir Ron's Federal's TBBC were 400.5 grs, based on momentum at the muzzle, they would have been making 2286 fps average from eight. Very close! Plus, the 400.5 gr has a slight advantage in sectional density at .2724 vs .2656 for the 390.5 gr.

Some questions (added): Do Federal make their own brass and bullets? Were there technical reasons for those slight changes or "happenstance"? From a sales perception, it appears to be the same product, and from a hunter's view it might not matter anyway. But the 400.5gr bullet appears to be better in some ways.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

For dang sure. I learn a ton everytime I open it. It would make a helluva manual for a 458 user.

Sire Woods,
Enaa baasee'.
You warm the cockles of my cranky heart with your summary appraisal of reality.
Some people can't handle the truth, not so at the Square Table.
Nice H4198 load for sure. Noted.

Sir Jerry,
Don't worry, I will wrap the .45-caliber sabots and shot capsules with paper, so they do not touch the barrel.
My paper-patching lessons from Saint Sir Bagwell and you shall not be wasted.

Sir Scotty,
You are an inspiration for me to try some muzzleloader projectiles.
I will have to google your rifle and projectiles to learn more about them.
I am thinking I could load the Paramount .45-cal loads in a .458 WinMag, paper patch over the plastic skirts,
and full charge of Blackhorn 209.
Here is another varmint bullet for short-range use:



Sir Bob,
Good thought on the old TBBC 390-grainer versus your new TBBC 400-grainer:
Same momentum,
and the new bullet is an honest 400-gr and still betters the advertised MV.

390-gr @ 2345 fps: MO = 130.6 lbsXfps
400-gr @ 2282 fps: MO = 130.4 lbsXfps
Those for SAAMI factory loads of moderation.

For some .458 WM+ non-SAAMI handloads loads allowed reasonable MAP and COL
to work in any SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag with 24" barrel:
400-gr @ 2500 fps: MO = 142.9 lbsXfps
450-gr @ 2400 fps: MO = 154.3 lbsXfps
500-gr @ 2300 fps: MO = 164.3 lbsXfps
I think I am seeing a pattern here.

In preparation for +4000 fps sabot loads in the .458 WM+, another Jack L wannabe needs to be mentioned, a co-creator of the ".458 MCW Express."
Surely his ignorance of the .450 Watts Magnum is feigned, for self-aggrandizement. Author is MacFarland.
MCW stands for MacFarland, Corbett and Wells the three gunsmiths collaborating on this.
One or more of them must be watching over Mr. MacFarland in the gunsmith shop,
identities otherwise concealed to protect the innocent:

I doubt as the author stated in the article he was getting over 2800 fps in the Whelen with an 18” barrel and a 250 grain bullet.

Yep, H. E. MacFARLAND is a hoot !
Some mildly amusing comedy in that article gives it redeeming social value.

The jackals (Jack L worshippers) are being schooled here, back to the basics like the 3R's:

https://www.africahunting.com/threa...r-speer-ags-tungsten-solids.79948/page-7

School is in session.
It is kind of like Special Ed over there.
There is hope for them as long as they don't miss the bus, the short bus.