Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

That 2800 fps MV with a 250 grain 0.358” bullet is a stretch, even for the 358 NM, and unattainable in a 35 Whelen, regardless of barrel length. Didn’t know they had crack available when that article was written, but the author was obviously on some psychedelic fantasy trip.

The 358 MAN, my wildcat based on a 300 Win Mag case modified along the lines of the Gibbs case model and fired in a 22” barrel will yield an honest 2750 FPS MV with a 250 grain SP bullet, without launching the pieces of the rifle and shooter into a reddish haze. However, the case capacity of the 358 MAN is a bit over 90 grains of water to the body-shoulder junction.

That ancient article was a hoot to read. Wonder if the chronograph cited was a ballistic pendulum.

Wrong 2800 FPS is obtainable in the 358 Norma mag. My friend chtongraphs 2800 FPS in his 358 Norma

Using CFE223 I get 2700 FPS with a 250 grain bullet in my 35 Whelen 1885 Highwall

Sounds like experiences vary. Suspect chamber pressures, barrel lengths and bullets make a difference.

I would be curious to know the chamber pressure, regardless of powder, to get a 250 grain bullet to 2700 FPS with a 35 Whelen or 2800 fps in a 358 NM case. North of 70K psi I suspect.

Physics of volume:pressure and potential:kinetic energy conversions are stubborn things.

My load of CFE223 behind a 250 grain bullet pressure tested at 58,000 PSI below the SAAMI max average pressure

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Not mine, nor do I know anything about the seller. Just posting, as you don't often see a Rem 700 in 458 Win mag show up in our local classifieds.

Rem 700 custom shop 458 Win mag , used for sale

Lessee if this is legible, H. E. MacFARLAND's wildcat is featured, bless his heart:









Karl Bosselmann concluded that he needed a faster twist than 1:14" for the 220-gr.308/.458 sabot load from his Ruger No. 1 .458 WinMag.
Since it is easy to do +3000 fps with a 250-gr monometal GMX bullet in a .458 WinMag,
maybe the 250-gr.358/.458 sabot load could work in a 1:14" twist .458 WinMag.
I also have a 1:10" twist.
Maybe AA-5744 full-case load, or good ol' H4198, either one might work, both so good with the GMX 250-grainer.
April Fool's day is coming and maybe I will have shooting range access by then.

https://woodmanarms.com/patriot-muzzleloader.php

Sir Scotty
A 5.5-pound hammerless, waterproof muzzle loader for Blackhorn 209 or H4198 up to 45,000 psi with, with 1:18" twist, for 300-grain bullet is a winner for sure.

Is this the Parker bullet you are using ?:

https://parkerproductionsinc.com/co...y-of-45-cal-300gr-ballistic-extreme-bulk

Interesting implications for any .45-caliber rifle work, might find application in turning any .458 WinMag into a muzzleloader
when the zombie apocalypse or other chaos comes and make-do must make-do.

IIRC, Woodman Arms offer a "full bore" option or whatever they called it, with cut rifling instead of the usual McGowen button rifling ?
I assume this is for non-sabot, non-Power Belt, jacketed bullet that obturates into the rifling ?
How is that bore & groove different.
What kind of fitting of bullet to rifling did you have to do to get such great results ?

I am stuck on the .45-cal CVA Paramount but might be able to adapt some of your techniques to that.

I remember an article on how it was difficult to get cast bullets to shoot accurately in the 458. Then I read strong replies from shooters on how that’s not so.
I’m probably too old to go to Africa and I have no “need” for a 458. But if I buy one, cast bullets is what I’d have in mind.

What’s your favorite cast bullet loads in the 458?

a friend of mine has a Styer in a .458 maybe I should buy it to shoot these 500 grain solids I've got that I can't seem to sell..

I really hope that "needing" a rifle never becomes a requirement for buying a new one because that will throw my entire acquisition strategy into disarray.

I'm a new convert to the 458 WM having been intrigued by the enthusiasm of some of the other poster's love for this particular cartridge. This thread has been an invaluable resource that really could be condensed into a small book on the topic. But sometimes it can be a bit unwieldy to locate particular information. As a computer nerd, I usually go to Google & drop in a search like the one below:

site:www.24hourcampfire.com "The Great 458 Winchester" "cast bullets"

This will return the 2,040 times that "cast bullets" were mentioned in this thread with the top 49 results on the first page. Any phrases in double quotes has to appear on the page so sometimes I use it to find a post by a particular person. When I open the first link, I hit <Ctrl><F> to find that phrase. Whenever I open another link to go to a new page / post, I can always hit the <F3> shortcut key to toggle through every mention of that phrase on the new page without having to type anything in. It will just repeat the previous search. Doing something like this, allows me to locate specific items quickly and jump through thousands of posts focusing only on the topic I'm researching.

I don't know if anyone will find this useful or not, but if it helps at least one person, then I thought it was worth a mention. For some people, tricks like these just makes things more confusing. As someone who writes code all day, I have a tendency to be very keyboard-centric and efficient about searching for things. Since I was unable to answer Bugger's question directly, I thought I would share how I've been sifting through the copious information here.

On a side note, while surfing around earlier this weekend, I stumbled across this gem below from Gary Larson and The Far Side. My first thought was "Hey! It's Sir Ron putting a Shock Hammer to good use". I've never met any of the Knights of the Square Table but this is kind of what I visualize some of them are like based on their posts.

Thank you for the google tip! And yes that is one of my favorite Far Side panels!!
F01

you hit it out of the park with that likeness of RC .it fits him to a tee

I haven’t tried them in a 458, but for a small game load instead of Ganyana’s round ball load a lightweight SWC in 458 might be another option. I have a CBE mould designated 458260. I think it was originally designed for an obscure English BP Express cartridge. I bought it years ago to make plinking loads for a 45/70. It’s a PB SWC style design that would likely be more accurate and easier to load than a round ball.

CBE no longer list that mould but I’m sure something similar could be had from Accurate in the US. Something like an upsized version of Keith’s 452424 with a diameter of 0.462/3 out the mould would be the ticket.

Hah !
Great work from Knights of the Square Table !

About any cast bullet will work well in the .458 WinMag with smokeless
if it is sized to .461" in hard alloy.
PC-paint and smokeless is the modern version of paper-patch and BP.
If using paper-patched and BP in the .458 WinMag, you need to patch up to groove size (0.458" -0.459") instead of bore size (0.450").

If you go through this thread you will see I learned a lot by trial and error.
When you push a really hard cast bullet (my 25 BHN alloy that is bigger than 0.462" diameter) through a 0.460" base-pusher sizer, it springs back to 0.461".
PC paint can add about 0.001" diameter per coat.
PC painted hardcast bullets size nicely, with or without lube.
etc., etc.

If stuck with using .459" diameter store-bought cast bullets, grease-lubed, meant for .45-70 (SAAMI minimum groove for .45-70 Gov't. is 0.456")
they will work fairly well if you keep velocities below 1400 fps.

Properly sized and properly hard bullets with gas checks and PC paint are good to 2200 fps at least, with excellent accuracy
in the .458 WinMag with smokeless powders.

I have been shooting cast for a long time. Actually as long as I’ve shot jacketed. I don’t remember which was first. But I’ve never been tempted to use paint instead of lube. I know some really like it.

My brother (deceased) used to shoot cast bullets in excess of 2,000 fps with heat treated wheel weights, gc’s, and lube. He won cast bullet match’s with that combination.

I’ve not tried to push past 1,600 fps. The 45’s I have are either lever or falling block. I’m thinking a good bolt action in 45 might be the thing I “need”. The only common bolt action 45 is the 458, I believe.

From early on in this thread, page 4:



Eastwood Ford Light Blue powder-coat paint,
hard alloy pushed through 0.460" sizer makes a 0.461" diameter bullet, optimal in 0.458" to .459" groove diameter .458 WinMag.
Two very accurate loads, PC painted and pushed through a 0.460" sizer (Lee or CH4D),
the base pusher rod installs the gas check with the easy sizing pass, no lube except the powder-coat paint.
Scope is zeroed for the heavy bullet at 100 yards, and then the lighter bullet is dead-on at 200 yards.

That light bullet can be loaded to 2500 fps but is not as accurate, it strings vertically, but does not lead the barrel,
PC paint and gas check foul very little.
Good cheap bullet for practice with the feel of 400-gr and 404-gr solid and soft at 2500 fps.

From page 2:



From page 5:
Harbor Freight Red powder-coat paint, hard alloy PC-painted and pushed through 0.460" sizer
makes a most accurate 0.461"-diameter boolitt for the SAAMI .458 WinMag.





I have many more boolitts and loads yet to be tried, and more trial with favorites need doing.
Going to the range on April Fools' Day.
Cheers for Saint Patricks Day today !

As Sir Ron has posted, a FN cast bullet properly sized to fill the grooves works very well in the magnificent 458 WM. If you read the fine print in Ron’s posts you will see he uses foam rod material to hold the powder column up against the primer. I use Dacron for the same purpose and it does make a difference in my rifle. I use aa2015 and imr 4759 and my 485 grain FN runs between 1750 and 1950. I also use a softer alloy 12-15 bhn without problems. I don’t know if they expand in deer because I can’t catch one inside a deer…. They do expand inside a 200 pound tub of protein supplement! An excellent test medium that you can leave in the woods for the deer after your done with it.
I have a couple hundred powder coated and some aa2460 I’m going to try this year to run the velocity up a bit. No need to but just for fun.
Good shooting to you sir!
F01

Sir Dennis,
Very good plan.
The 480-grainer is the best weight for the entire spectrum of Ballistics with which to Bagwell, like Saint Sir Bill Bagwell did with his .45-70 Sharps.
From the Whitworth rifle of the 1850's to the .450 "S Rigby" Nitro Express standard setter for excellence, all same 480-gr weight.
If you cannot do 450 NE ballistics with your current 485-gr bullet when PC-painted, I will be surprised.
I have a 485-grainer yet to be tried that will be gas-checked, hardcast, and PC-painted.
I think 2150 to 2200 fps with 485-grainer will be the perfect modus operandi.
Let us call that the Nitro Express Modus Operandi: NEMO

I move that The Square Table consider a classification of cast bullet loads,
.458 Winchester Magnum Cast Bullet Modi Operandi, with this provisional suggestion,
based on a 23" to 25" barrel length (average 24"), any COL, short or long:

Light Express: 400-480 grain bullet at 1800 to 2200 fps: LEMO
Nitro Express: 480-500 grain bullet at 2150-2200 fps: NEMO
Heavy Express: 500-600 grain bullet at 2150-2200 fps: HEMO
Bullseye Express: Any bullet weight at any velocity that shoots accurately, and is not covered by other MO brackets: BEMO

That should cover everything.

Do I hear a second of the motion ?

As an example, here is a BEMO load: Bullseye Express





Scope was adjusted to raise POI and then a 3-shot group at 100 yards was only 0.16" low.
With only a few rounds of loaded ammo left, the final 3-shot group at 200 yards:

Here is a LEMO cast bullet load: Light Express