You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
I've already called out the word game you are playing and why it doesn't prove what you think it proves.
The universe exists.
We do not know how it came to exist.
That does not mean "god did it".
So, you make assumptions of what I said in the discussions... then argue against a point I never made regarding these two HOW/KNOW postings. What kind of conflating... or ...straw man or red herring is that?
You use the same word twisting you castigate others for.....
Since you have brought God into the discussion, let's run with that for a bit....ok
You did say that the universe does indeed exist and further state that "That does not mean 'god did it'."
BUT, the current view of the "astrophysicists" of today all seem to believe that the universe had a "sudden" and dramatic beginning. Big Bang or "everything everywhere all at once" is what I read being talked about. Some how SOMETHING happened and the Universe just came into being....Right? (And don't give me that Magic Larry nonsense about the "Universe from Nothing." He's been proven to be a degenerate a fraud and just a self serving book seller.)
So, SOMTHING happened and the UNIVERSE is just suddenly HERE. Of course, there those that would say, "Well we don't HOW the universe began, but we KNOW that it did." It did indeed come into existence... but HOW is indeed an intriguing question.
Now... let me state as I understand YOUR meaning ..... You said.. paraphrased.... .."If there is evidence that something has been MADE, that implies the involvement of a sentient being."
So, let me ask all who are reading this post..... Do you see in the world around you..... the landscapes, oceans, deserts, plants, animals and of course ...us humans.....Do you see evidence that this world and this universe has been MADE?
Many have posted on this thread that they sense a "sentient being" when they behold nature, the stars and the world. I agree.
So there are really two logical choices when one regards the origin of all we see in this world today.... A or B
A - "Everything we see came from Nothing and we literally have no idea of how or why."
B - A great and almighty powerful "sentient being" MADE the Universe and this World and US.
I ,as do many of you..... vote "B"
You're wrong about the current understand of The Big Bang and it's implication for the early universe:
Nope, not off target at all…. The real issue, the one you try to avoid is not what I propose about the origin of the universe…..this video is just your attempt to divert …..and hide.
Did this narrator list not one but at least a half a dozen ill defined theories about possible alternatives or variations to the big bang….or what ever happened at the beginning? Yes he did….
Did the narrator offer a single most viable theory to the origin of the universe? No, he did not.
You are resorting to 13 minutes of bafflegab in a weak attempt to avoid the real issue.
The real issue is not about which theory is most current or even accurate…
You remind me those twerps that “abstain” or even “flee” when the time to vote…..or act comes upon us.
“A” or “B”……. Or perhaps “F”….for fear of being exposed.
I will mark you down as “abstaining for lack of conviction.”
TF,
I appreciate you investing the time to watch the video.
Yes, it really is a lot to wrap one's mind around, that the singularity resulting from General Relativity is just a break down it the math and not necessarily the beginning of space/time, and quantum theory suggests it is not. As the vacuum state approached zero it becomes unstable. I guess nature really does abhor a vacuum.
You asked about the universe being created from nothing, but what there really ever a true "nothing"? Our current best understand of physics tends to indicate other wise, which changes the whole question to "Why is there something rather than nothing". The honest answer remains "We don't know". We're researching, we're leaning, we have some idea's, but as of today, we don't know.
According to science,Simple "life" was created from acids and lightning, yet have never been able to recreate it.
It's a little more complex then that.
Yah, no its not. Scientist beleive in the big bang theory and that life was created in a pool of acid with a little help from electricity, both are impossible to recreate and even more impossible to explain.
In a thread like this one where the original question posed is so simple, yet so deep, often the discussion becomes so personal and invasive that tempers flare and the discussion falters as a result. This hasn't really changed much in the 20+ years of this site and I suspect that will not change again any time soon. As this site goes, this discussion has been relatively acceptable and has made some very good points- and a few questionable ones...
There are so many ways to approach this subject and as some have also discussed the subject , my historical knowledge of the Bible and the antiquities of the formation of it, the gospels, and other matters surrounding my faith are not what they should be, but I am not ashamed or embarrassed about that fact. My faith and belief are enough for me and I fill in my ignorance when I can or when subjects like this one come up. I do appreciate the background so many here share with us - part of what I consider my additive education on faith, religion, and just basic history IMO.. I'm not quite as ignorant as that statement may imply, however I don't possess the willingness to discuss my deeply personal religion in this manner most of the time.
It is a shame this discussion comes up on this type of forum since it is difficult to discuss these type of personal subjects in long form due to the nature of these type of conversations and the snippet type of posts required to move these discussions along. There is so much to be said- the discussion of the nature of evil vs. good, how God is viewed by so many in so many different ways and cultures and why, why God would allow pain and suffering when he has the power to make the world basically perfect if He so chooses, and so many questions. As humans we struggle with our spirits, our relationships, our thoughts of life and death- and yet the struggle is why we are who we are. IMO this is as God intended as well as all the other esoteric evidence we struggle with such as the origins of the Universe and every other thing we wonder about- the equivalent of a child asking "why is the sky blue" is how our lives develop , but the questions get deeper and deeper as we develop the capacity to look deeper. All part of God's plan in so many ways...
Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability.
I'm not just a copy cat believer in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit like so many so-called christians. I've had PLENTY of time under a welding hood to ponder things over the last 40 years it wire, including this subject.
I believe in spiritual destiny. That being everyone of us is here for a reason and on the exact path we are supposed to follow. The good, the bad, the indifferent, and the downright evil m'effers. Everything, and everyone is interconnected and what we do with our lives matters to those we come in contact with, however that is across the span of our lives. Maybe we don't see it, maybe we will never even know it, but it all matters. When God's Grace happens, and good things are bestowed upon us, or someone else, we are supposed to recognize it and be grateful. When something bad happens, we are supposed to look at it, in it, around it, for something, anything that has meaning to our own individual existence here, and do what we can to help those that have been hurt.
If you can't fathom any of that with an open free thinking mind, without it being spelled out in every minute detail ad nauseum, then you need to go spend your own 40 years under a welding hood. Your existence here, and the life you are living, is not random, or irrelevant.
I also believe this Great Nation was founded with Divine Providence. How else could a rag tag bunch of farmers defeat the most powerful and well funded military force on the planet, and go on to devise the best and most fair system of self governance ever thought up in the history of mankind. That was squarely the hand of God.
I am perfectly content with my beliefs.
This is the dumbest shiit I have ever heard! All that welding torched your brain! LOL!!!
What's your purpose here on this thread?
Do you honestly think that mocking and berating will change someone's beliefs to be something more acceptable to you?
Do you really think that because YOU, a random irrelevant nobody on the internet, thinks something is the dumbest shiit you've ever heard, it will cause someone to abandon God and take your path?
No, all you're doing here is providing the means for those who believe to further solidiy their beliefs and see yet another of Satan's minions doing Satan's work.
I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children may live in peace. ~~ Thomas Paine
All problems are solvable with the proper application of enough explosives. Old demolition school axiom.
Today dropping a couple dozen heavier than air Fuel Air Mixture 600 gallons bombs down the middle of Gaza, wait one minute, then drop an aluminum powder detonator, would put the entire Gaza outhouse into low orbit, bunkers, tunnels buildings and all. Secondaries would be enough to kill the remaining rats.
When the impotent US politicians figure out that extermination is way cheaper in treasure and blood than fooling with these morons most of this crap will come to an end.
“To expect defeat is nine-tenths of defeat itself. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is best to plan for all eventualities then believe in success, and only cross the failure bridge if you come to it." Francis Marion - The Swamp Fox
All problems are solvable with the proper application of enough explosives. Old demolition school axiom.
Today dropping a couple dozen heavier than air Fuel Air Mixture 600 gallons bombs down the middle of Gaza, wait one minute, then drop an aluminum powder detonator, would put the entire Gaza outhouse into low orbit, bunkers, tunnels buildings and all. Secondaries would be enough to kill the remaining rats.
When the impotent US politicians figure out that extermination is way cheaper in treasure and blood than fooling with these morons most of this crap will come to an end.
Not exactly sure what this has to do with a belief in God, but this solution might answer the question for a few bad actors.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Yah, no its not. Scientist beleive in the big bang theory and that life was created in a pool of acid with a little help from electricity, both are impossible to recreate and even more impossible to explain.
Life may be common throughout the universe wherever there are planets with ideal conditions...or life may be exceedingly rare, perhaps only one or two suitable planets per galaxy, or one in a thousand galaxies, each galaxy composed of billions of stars and countless planets, who knows.
It's a matter the sheer number of planets within an incomprehensibly vast universe. Stars and planets are not created, they form from clouds of hydrogen and other elements.
“In the beginning, God…”. Moses is writing to an ancient group of people who all they know is slavery, all they know is the power of the Egyptian gods ~ a pantheon of gods.
In Genesis, Moses is not trying to explain how God created the universe. Moses is making the point that God created the universe, not the gods, just Yahweh. But some folks get all confused and focused on the timing and the sequencing of the creation account. And they miss the significance.
People are NOT born a slave to their DNA. People DO have free will. There IS a redeemer, and there IS an afterlife. But in the very beginning, we are introduced to a God who gives people freedom to choose, and then honors their choices.
If I was ever forced into picking some sort of imaginary friend belief system, Buddhism would get my vote. Of the dozens I've studied, it seems like the least likely to incite it's followers into causing harm to others who did or said something I don't agree with.
While I certainly don't appreciate a neighbor coveting my ass, it's not at all something that should be categorized as deadly.
The vast majority of imaginary friend belief systems aren't fit to be allowed into civilized society. Islam being the most widespread but not the worst (if you can believe that). There are tribes in south america who believe you can't marry from your own tribe but have to abduct a wife from a neighboring tribe. Understandably, they have to fend off raids led by pissed off family members from other tribes pretty regularly. Oddly enough, they don't think them abducting women has anything to do with it. Being how their imaginary friend told them it was the right thing to do and all.
A person who's happy will make others happy. Anne Frank
“In the beginning, God…”. Moses is writing to an ancient group of people who all they know is slavery, all they know is the power of the Egyptian gods ~ a pantheon of gods.
In Genesis, Moses is not trying to explain how God created the universe. Moses is making the point that God created the universe, not the gods, just Yahweh. But some folks get all confused and focused on the timing and the sequencing of the creation account. And they miss the significance.
People are NOT born a slave to their DNA. People DO have free will. There IS a redeemer, and there IS an afterlife. But in the very beginning, we are introduced to a God who gives people freedom to choose, and then honors their choices.
Antler's, you might consider puting "Moses" in quotes. Since the 1970's scholars have accepted he's a fictional character, and the archeology doesn't support the out of Egypt hypothesis.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” That mantra has been repeated over and over and over and over again by those who have a problem with others being believers in the existence of a Creator of the universe.
But for them to say that the universe can come into existence without a creative cause is an extraordinary claim. And none of those who make this claim have extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary claim.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” That mantra has been repeated over and over and over and over again by those who have a problem with others being believers in the existence of a Creator of the universe.
But for them to say that the universe can come into existence without a creative cause is an extraordinary claim. And none of those who make this claim have extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary claim.
So, what evidence do they use to prove the "extraordinary" nature of matter?
Even atheists of today are admitting that space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing. If space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing ~ then whatever created space, time, and matter can’t be made out of space, time, and matter.
When one ponders a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal, intelligent cause, what does one think of…?
GOD.
One doesn’t know if it’s the Christian God at this point, but it’s a theistic God. A being who’s beyond the universe, who created the universe.
Even atheists of today are admitting that space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing. If space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing ~ then whatever created space, time, and matter can’t be made out of space, time, and matter.
When one ponders a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal, intelligent cause, what does one think of…?
GOD.
One doesn’t know if it’s the Christian God at this point, but it’s a theistic God. A being who’s beyond the universe, who created the universe.
Total rubbish. Seems faith leads to attempted justification via a stream of bullshit.
With Easter fast approaching it's almost time again to bring out the Jesus Shovel and clear the path for the Easter Bunny.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
If Jesus really rose from the dead, it’d be expected to have a pretty big ripple effect. As history is examined, there’s three options regarding this matter: 1) He’s a mythological character who never lived or died or rose. 2) He’s an ancient Jewish sage who was crucified and never rose from the dead. 3) He was a real person who claimed divinity and performed miracles and was crucified and rose from the dead.
Given how history turned out, which one makes better sense…? No one’s been written about more than Jesus. No one’s been painted or sung about more than Jesus. No schools have been founded on the basic principles of a worldview more than on the worldview established by Jesus.
Which of these versions of Jesus…based on how history turned out…makes the most sense…? The myth, the regular guy who died, or the real risen Savior who really was who He said He was and the Gospels actually record the truth…?
How does Christianity exist under the circumstances in which it was born unless Jesus really did rise from the dead…? Just the historical impact of this one person…the ripple effect…is pretty astounding. His followers must have encountered something much bigger than just His great teachings.
Even atheists of today are admitting that space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing. If space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing ~ then whatever created space, time, and matter can’t be made out of space, time, and matter.
When one ponders a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal, intelligent cause, what does one think of…?
GOD.
One doesn’t know if it’s the Christian God at this point, but it’s a theistic God. A being who’s beyond the universe, who created the universe.
Define "Nothing".
Overall your version of big-bang cosmology's about 30 years behind the current science. I already covered this with TF49.
And "I don't know therefore GOD" is not an extraordinary claim? Come on Antlers, you're better than that.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 03/28/24.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
This Country has turned dark whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Every person, no matter how messed up their thinking is, understands the basic concept of right and wrong, a lot of things happening these days are morally, spiritually, mentally, and physically wrong.
The worst part is that our children are being attacked and too many people just accept it.
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