I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Yes, I believe in God (Higher Power) in my own way talk to him he looks out for me. i am not affiliated with any religion or church don't feel the need for a preacher. Not all can be trusted some are child molesters & crooks only wanting your money.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Get the Christians to follow the morals first....then see who follows.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Get the Christians to follow the morals first....then see who follows.
Im not talking about "christian" humans. Im talking of the teachings. Being a moral person isnt a bad thing, whether one believe in God or no. Society would be MUCH better off
Yes, I believe in God (Higher Power) in my own way talk to him he looks out for me. i am not affiliated with any religion or church don't feel the need for a preacher. Not all can be trusted some are child molesters & crooks only wanting your money.
In point of fact you are like me in that you believe God rather than believe in God.
I was raised catholic also so I understand what a bad first experience about religion you had. Catholic is a joke, it has nothing to do with Jesus or God. Find a good church that preaches the Bible, your life literally depends on it. Too not believe in God is foolish.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God, and I don’t push my beliefs on anyone, but I can’t see how a man can not believe in a higher power and believe we are only on this earth by chance.
It's not hard to believe in God. It just depends on how widely you define God. Taken to one extreme, you can define God as the sum total of the laws of physics or even as existence itself. At the other extreme you can believe there is a little man-like "thing" up above us who listens to our prayers and grants those wishes, punishes those that are bad, rewards those that are good, decides to creates things, intervenes with our daily lives. It just depends where you draw the line and say that is God.
It's not hard to believe in God. It just depends on how widely you define God. Taken to one extreme, you can define God as the sum total of the laws of physics or even as existence itself. At the other extreme you can believe there is a little man-like "thing" up above us who listens to our prayers and grants those wishes, punishes those that are bad, rewards those that are good, decides to creates things, intervenes with our daily lives. It just depends where you draw the line and say that is God.
Or you can be content to know that God is, and leave all the rest to the clowns that wish to control and force capitulation to their 'way'.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
I would beg to disagree, how much blood has been shed in the name of religion?
I was raised catholic also so I understand what a bad first experience about religion you had. Catholic is a joke, it has nothing to do with Jesus or God. Find a good church that preaches the Bible, your life literally depends on it. Too not believe in God is foolish.
I do believe in God, even though I was raised as a Catholic. Organized religion is a money making racket.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
I would beg to disagree, how much blood has been shed in the name of religion?
If we all followed Biblical Christian morals, there would be no bloodshed. The problem is that few do follow them. The world is awash with those who CLAIM to be Christians but who aren't, doing exactly the opposite.
Even if God doesn't exist, there's lots of benefits (and also some disadvantages) in people believing that God exists. I suppose in many societies it's thought that the benefits in believing in God outweigh the disadvantages in believing in God.
I believe in God. Not the church, not anymore. I was raised in a Southern Baptist church. But beginning in the 1970's I watched the churches start to kick God out of the building and Christians started looking for something else to worship. Much like when Moses went up the mountain to get the 10 Commandments. By the time he got back they had given up on God and were worshiping a golden calf. At least 90% of the people I know who claim to be Christians are now following false prophets. They think they are saving the world, but until they clean their own house, they are only making things worse.
SOMETHING created the universe. It cannot have created itself. The nature of that creator is open to debate and much mystery.
The problem with that argument is that if something must have created the universe, then something must have also created God. So there must be another God to create the first God, and so it goes on and on.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
I absolutely believe in God and the salvation of Christ through faith. My Mom was raised as a catholic, but she told me about the priest preaching in Latin, and actually discouraging people to read the Bible on their own! (1930s) She didn’t drive, and Dad seldom went to church. He finally accepted Christ on his deathbed! But Mom always told us kids about God and Jesus. I believed in Jesus long before i ever became a Christian. I know it was Moms prayer and belief that finally got me into church. Carol was raised as a catholic too, while we were away in my military service, her family stopped going to Catholic Church and joined a local Christian church. When we got home, Carol and Ben went without me with her family. (Nazerene) Ben was 6 or 7. He wondered why he had to go to church, and I didn’t!😀 So I was guilted into going, because of my own personal faith from Mom!😀 I found church to be very helpful in my day to day life, and we were there constantly if the door was open! I got baptized by them, and Carol and I jointly led study groups and taught Sunday School at a Jr High level! When she left me, it tore my whole world apart. I stopped attending church altogether. I still believed, and I figured when Christ wanted me, He’d know where to find me. No one from that church called me, or tried to see how I was doing! When I got with Penny, I attended her church, (Methodist) I I wasn’t feeling nourished like I had before, and only went on holidays and special occasions. Last fall, I stopped to get a haircut, and a book called “Examining Our Heritage was on the shelf. I wanted my own copy, so looked on the computer and found it was written locally by a preacher at the Faith Baptist Church, so I thought I’d give it a shot! If Christ had drove me there Himself, the message wouldn’t have been any clearer This church teaches right out of The Book, and it reinforces everything with more Scripture. It surely makes me want to be there! Like I said, when Dave died, I know I was covered on dozen’s of prayers from that support and here on the ‘Fire. It was tough on me, cause we were really close. But I also know that Dave had that same faith, put there bu Mom! Not trying to convert any sinners here, but I wanted to answer your legitimate question, and share my faith. I always love threads like this. Hopefully my Son and DI L will see this. They both seem to avoid religious discussion. I feel it my duty as a father to make sure of them. Reon
SOMETHING created the universe. It cannot have created itself. The nature of that creator is open to debate and much mystery.
The problem with that argument is that if something must have created the universe, then something must have also created God. So there must be another God to create the first God, and so it goes on and on.
Yep. Lived with him actually! My Dad always said “son, I am GOD…. I brought you into this world, and I can take you out! Sounded pretty God like to me!!
SOMETHING created the universe. It cannot have created itself. The nature of that creator is open to debate and much mystery.
The problem with that argument is that if something must have created the universe, then something must have also created God. So there must be another God to create the first God, and so it goes on and on.
Not necessarily. That logic assumes that the Creator experiences time at all or in a manner similar to how we experience it. Time is part of spacetime, which is a component of this universe. It might be nonexistent or function far differently in whatever reality in which the Creator exists separate from this Universe. For example, the rate of the passage of time differs enormously from that on the surface of the earth for objects traveling at near the speed of light relative to the earth or in an extreme gravitational field, such as near the event horizon of a black hole. Without those principle being applied, GPS satellite systems would be worthless minutes after their launch. Atomic clocks on earth tick more slowly than those in zero gravity in orbit.
Time for the Creator, if it exists at all, could be far different than what we observe and experience. It might not be so linear. It might be incomprehensibly weird to us.
I was raised catholic also so I understand what a bad first experience about religion you had. Catholic is a joke, it has nothing to do with Jesus or God. Find a good church that preaches the Bible, your life literally depends on it. Too not believe in God is foolish.
Yes indeed. You will also and it may be too late then.
Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen; being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. KJV
GOD’s creation reveals 2 things about Him: His eternal power and Godhead. Creation reveals that God is powerful; hence, man is obligated to Him and the fact He is God. No man is able to stand before God and say he turned away from God because He did not did not give any light. All men have had the revelation of God thru His creations, therefore they are without excuse. Even the heathens. If you love the outdoors like many of us in the Fire do; you can’t help but known that there is a higher power, God and Creator.
It's not hard to believe in God. It just depends on how widely you define God. Taken to one extreme, you can define God as the sum total of the laws of physics or even as existence itself. At the other extreme you can believe there is a little man-like "thing" up above us who listens to our prayers and grants those wishes, punishes those that are bad, rewards those that are good, decides to creates things, intervenes with our daily lives. It just depends where you draw the line and say that is God.
i That post hit home. Humans are and will be too dumb to figure out the universe. I could only imagine what is out there.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
I would beg to disagree, how much blood has been shed in the name of religion?
If we all followed Biblical Christian morals, there would be no bloodshed. The problem is that few do follow them. The world is awash with those who CLAIM to be Christians but who aren't, doing exactly the opposite.
Every religious zealot I know claims there is only one god, and the one they believe in is the true god.
How is this even possible?
I think it's man's way of explaining what they don't understand and their fear of the unknown.
So many fear death, yet it might be the greatest joy ever!
NO ONE truly knows.
You are saying it's man's interpretation of religion that has caused all the hate and bloodshed, it certainly doesn't speak well for christianity and religion in general.
Any sane person would conclude religion is a huge problem.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God, and I don’t push my beliefs on anyone, but I can’t see how a man can not believe in a higher power and believe we are only on this earth by chance.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
I would beg to disagree, how much blood has been shed in the name of religion?
If we all followed Biblical Christian morals, there would be no bloodshed. The problem is that few do follow them. The world is awash with those who CLAIM to be Christians but who aren't, doing exactly the opposite.
You don't have to be a Christian to have and follow morals... Geez
SOMETHING created the universe. It cannot have created itself. The nature of that creator is open to debate and much mystery.
The problem with that argument is that if something must have created the universe, then something must have also created God. So there must be another God to create the first God, and so it goes on and on.
Not necessarily. That logic assumes that the Creator experiences time at all or in a manner similar to how we experience it. Time is part of spacetime, which is a component of this universe. It might be nonexistent or function far differently in whatever reality in which the Creator exists separate from this Universe. For example, the rate of the passage of time differs enormously from that on the surface of the earth for objects traveling at near the speed of light relative to the earth or in an extreme gravitational field, such as near the event horizon of a black hole. Without those principle being applied, GPS satellite systems would be worthless minutes after their launch. Atomic clocks on earth tick more slowly than those in zero gravity in orbit.
Time for the Creator, if it exists at all, could be far different than what we observe and experience. It might not be so linear. It might be incomprehensibly weird to us.
I believe in some form of God, but not a jealous God that demands to be worshipped, killed innocent people in a flood, demanded genocide, sent bears to kill children for making fun of a guys bald head and enjoyed innocent animals being slaughtered but still wasn't appeased and threw his boy Job under the bus on a bet when Satan wasn't even the one to mention him.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Time for the Creator, if it exists at all, could be far different than what we observe and experience. It might not be so linear. It might be incomprehensibly weird to us.
My thought as well. When the young earth believers argue about evolution and the world being created in seven days and being only 6,000 some odd years old I’ve always wondered why they think one of God’s days would be the same as one of ours.
Yes, though I’ve been called an unbeliever by our resident crank Jag on multiple occasions, I believe in both God and Jesus Christ. I don’t believe we could even begin to comprehend the realm they inhabit; hoping to catch a glimpse someday.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
But what if your wrong?
I'm saying nobody knows for sure, us humans aren't advanced enough. What if I'am wrong ? We won't know.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Just as, what say is your opinion, nothing more, quite possibly less, as nothing factual supports your position.
Your opinion on the world being better because of "Christains" is total BS. You need to get out and meet some "Christains".
The growth of this thread and others about religion and Christianity points out that some people are looking for answers about the current state of the country and what the future holds for all of us. I have stated my beliefs on this, and I have tried to ignore the trolls who cannot believe and wish to ridicule those who are honestly seeking guidance. I’m not trying to push anything on anyone. But if you’re truly seeking guidance on churches or anything else, I’d be very happy to hear from you. If posting on these threads is something you would rather not do, I can surely understand that. Shoot me a PM if you’re interested in talking to someone who is only trying to help others. Reon
The growth of this thread and others about religion and Christianity points out that some people are looking for answers about the current state of the country and what the future holds for all of us. I have stated my beliefs on this, and I have tried to ignore the trolls who cannot believe and wish to ridicule those who are honestly seeking guidance. I’m not trying to push anything on anyone. But if you’re truly seeking guidance on churches or anything else, I’d be very happy to hear from you. If posting on these threads is something you would rather not do, I can surely understand that. Shoot me a PM if you’re interested in talking to someone who is only trying to help others. Reon
So those that don't lockstep with you are Trolls? Doesn't sound very Christian Brother.
I believe in god but the church these days is a racket to many phaaguts and to many chiefs not enuff injuns I can talk to the lord on the creek bank 😉
You'll probably be pretty well served by that talking on the creek bank.
You may want to ask about the Costco thing though. Go for a tryout one day when they have a lot of folks serving samples. You can get a pretty good snack time for free out of it at least.
You asked a question in your title and then asked something different in the body.
Title: Yes.
Body: No, I don’t feel the same.
You seem to trying to explain your rationale, which may be fine if you want people to make you feel good about your choice. Sorry, I can’t help with that. I believe you are making a great mistake and for your sake only, I hope you reconsider. But it’s always been a choice. Now this isn’t a choice: You are going to physically die, 110% for sure. And you probably have a ton more time behind you than you do in front of you.
I believe in god but the church these days is a racket to many phaaguts and to many chiefs not enuff injuns I can talk to the lord on the creek bank 😉
You'll probably be pretty well served by that talking on the creek bank.
You may want to ask about the Costco thing though. Go for a tryout one day when they have a lot of folks serving samples. You can get a pretty good snack time for free out of it at least.
I have accepted Christ in my heart. I believe that God exists all around us and is beyond our collective humanity. Bees work together and follow a pattern that sometimes requires the hive to kill the queen. They follow a pattern that is derived in their programming but I sense that there is a connection that bees make to God. I believe that God makes patterns that we tend to follow but must be reminded of from time to time. You just have to be nuanced to look at the patterns.
You can hear his voice in the wild places and its a hum that is definitely beyond human understanding. People used to say that the Aurora doesn't produce sound but now they have figured out that it is so. I think that God is in the details and I have seen to many things to be numb to that.
Sometimes the Holy Spirit will speak and provide guidance for me when I am at a crossroads. I do believe that in the modern age that we have lost a lot of the attachments that people used to have pre-Internet.
You bet. I believe in a higher power, and of course there are many versions of what that higher power is. For the most part, those varied interpretations have good aspects, but sometimes they get warped due to human nature, which can always be a problem.
The world is complicated and sometimes hard to decipher, but at least that keeps things interesting.
You asked a question in your title and then asked something different in the body.
Title: Yes.
Body: No, I don’t feel the same.
You seem to trying to explain your rationale, which may be fine if you want people to make you feel good about your choice. Sorry, I can’t help with that. I believe you are making a great mistake and for your sake only, I hope you reconsider. But it’s always been a choice. Now this isn’t a choice: You are going to physically die, 110% for sure. And you probably have a ton more time behind you than you do in front of you.
That came across condescending. I don't take any of this seriously. .
Even Satan and cast out demons believe in God. It’s what you do with that belief determines where your soul( which lives forever) will spend eternity. Do you believe His Son died for our sins and arose on the third day is what counts. God is Holy and as such, cannot have a relationship with us sinners unless there is a blood sacrifice- Jesus. Do you want to conquer death as Jesus did? Believe and repent. Simple.
If I’m wrong, I’ve used my belief in the Lord to help keep me morally straight. It hasn’t always worked and I often fall wayyyy short of Him, as do all Christians.
Now, if you don’t believe and you are wrong you will likely have a much larger problem if not saved before it is too late. Eternity is kind of a long time to live in hell, ya think?
I believe in god but the church these days is a racket to many phaaguts and to many chiefs not enuff injuns I can talk to the lord on the creek bank 😉
You'll probably be pretty well served by that talking on the creek bank.
You may want to ask about the Costco thing though. Go for a tryout one day when they have a lot of folks serving samples. You can get a pretty good snack time for free out of it at least.
EB,
Makes for a cheap date night with the spousal unit.
Be prepared for some boom boom when you get home. They love that sheit.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
But what if your wrong?
And what if you're wrong, and the correct answer is Mormons?
I just don't know whether heaven is going to be all it's cracked up to be, at least for me. I like hunting, not sure whether I will be able to do that...possibly you can't kill anything up there. Perhaps there's a lot a beautiful ladies up there, but again, not sure if you can do anything with them. And there's going to be several weak hypocrites who I am pretty sure will just manage to scrape in and get to heaven, not sure if I want to see them again. Just hope I'm not bored doing all the "nice" things up there.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
God, by definition, cannot be defined. Therefore, any belief in God is equally beyond definition, that can and does, exist as evidenced in the life one lives. Christians, particularly the less intellectual non denominational types, dismiss all scientific knowledge of the universe, as well as ancient thought that preceded formalized religion over millions of years of human development. Yet they are quite arrogant in their certain presumptions that bracket and constrain the Almighty in ridiculous costumes, reciting self serving lines from some proprietary screen play that reflect their self affirming claims, based upon what they alone believe and nothing more. The contact high of their mutual mass formation psychosis is very real and moving. I have experienced it myself and do not disparage the comfort of such oneness of spirit. As long as the humility required of the human condition of mortality and limited vision "through a glass darkly" restrains haughtiness of pride, such worship can be quite comforting. Comprehending God within the immeasurable universe itself should caution, if not silence, all preachers, evangelists, and theologians regardless of cloth or doctrine. Quakers at least have the good sense to remain silent, whatever other mischief they may have been guilty. It is instructive to remember how a Roman Emperor counseled tolerance of early Christians for their exemplary behavior he saw as a worthy philosophy, not religion. So yes, as Don Juan said, everything we know is on the table while everything we do not know isn't. God.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
There's a reason why there is a stairway to Heaven, and a highway to hell......
Where is this staircase located?
The stairway is a little bit harder to find than the highway; which since you didn't ask about the highway, you must already know where that is. Good luck with the choices you make in life. That's all I have to say about it.
There's a reason why there is a stairway to Heaven, and a highway to hell......
Where is this staircase located?
The stairway is a little bit harder to find than the highway; which since you didn't ask about the highway, you must already know where that is. Good luck with the choices you make in life. That's all I have to say about it.
If you have to take a stair way to heaven you'lll never get there, even if a stairway exist.
I was traveling in TN.... one evening I pulled into a parking lot for a break. The lot filled up ....I was in a Baptist Church. I was invited to the "service" by a couple gals.
I went in and joined up.... quite an evening ......I did not imagine church could be so interesting.
Now ,I travel to Northern Wisconsin , we have a cabin up there. I often get tired and I know all the cemeteries on Hwy 27 , Hwy 12, if I am sleepy I can pull into a cemetery for a short nap.
An old guy in bibs came up to the truck in the dark....asked if I would join him inna beer, well I was pleased to do so. He handed me an old Walters can of beer. The can was warm as could be ........but the beer was so cold I could hardly drink it.
I just don't know whether heaven is going to be all it's cracked up to be, at least for me. I like hunting, not sure whether I will be able to do that...possibly you can't kill anything up there. Perhaps there's a lot a beautiful ladies up there, but again, not sure if you can do anything with them. And there's going to be several weak hypocrites who I am pretty sure will just manage to scrape in and get to heaven, not sure if I want to see them again. Just hope I'm not bored doing all the "nice" things up there.
I’m sure each of us has a mental picture of what heaven would be like! Reuniting with friends and loved ones. Meeting my heroes from childhood, listening to musicians and singers I’ve always loved. I plan on giving Patsy Cline a big kiss! I said on other post, I think God must be a hunter Himself. The bond you build by hunting with people is much stronger than blood or friendship can ever supply! But i know there’s much more to life in this world than I can see as a mortal. I’m sure heaven is even greater than I can imagine. Maybe just being in the presence of my God and Savior is greater than we imagine now. To be honest, I don’t worry about it. I know my ticket is punched. If I’m wrong, (I’m sure I’m not), I’m worm food and nothing more. I love being alive, and I know that what awaits me is far beyond what I as a mortal can picture. Reon
There's a reason why there is a stairway to Heaven, and a highway to hell......
Where is this staircase located?
The stairway is a little bit harder to find than the highway; which since you didn't ask about the highway, you must already know where that is. Good luck with the choices you make in life. That's all I have to say about it.
If you have to take a stair way to heaven you'lll never get there, even if a stairway exist.
Good luck to you too.
It's a figure of speech friend, a play on words, that just happens to illustrate very succinctly the human condition here on this God forsaken rock, and you obviously don't get it.
There's a reason why there is a stairway to Heaven, and a highway to hell......
Where is this staircase located?
The stairway is a little bit harder to find than the highway; which since you didn't ask about the highway, you must already know where that is. Good luck with the choices you make in life. That's all I have to say about it.
If you have to take a stair way to heaven you'lll never get there, even if a stairway exist.
Good luck to you too.
Sure, there's a stairway to heaven. It was first mentioned in Genesis 28:12 and definitively identified in John 1:51.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
But what if your wrong?
And what if you're wrong, and the correct answer is Mormons?
Well, you again make me smile!
Seems to me that over time and dialogue, you and I pretty well know one another’s stated beliefs….
But anyway,
The key question here…for you…as I have asked before….”What will happen to you after you die ….. if I am right and you are wrong?”
God is your maker. Every knee shall bow to Him. I prefer to do so willingly as I am not self-made.
That does nothing to explain what "God" is. Nor are we made. We don't pop into existence through an act of divine creation. We are born and grow and die through a natural biological process.
I do not, however, believe in Christian dogma as codified in 300 AD or so. Or in Noah's Ark, the doctrine of original sin, etc. And if God is really all-powerful, why would it be necessary to torture his own son to death to "take away the sin of the world?"
Nevertheless I think all would agree that modern Christianity--not the religion practiced hundreds of years ago--makes the world a better and more caring place.
God is your maker. Every knee shall bow to Him. I prefer to do so willingly as I am not self-made.
That does nothing to explain what "God" is. Nor are we made. We don't pop into existence through an act of divine creation. We are born and grow and die through a natural biological process.
Nope…. You are wrong again…
Psalm 139:13-16
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
And if God is really all-powerful, why would it be necessary to torture his own son to death to "take away the sin of the world?"
I'm not an expert, but I think the point was to make God more relatable and to emphasize that no matter how bad it gets, including death by torture, even though it's insanely tough, the real reward for those who believe is on the other side, and then that prior hardship will matter no more.
Every time I get to questioning God’s Wisdom, I remind myself of Job. God allowed the troubles to befall Job, because He knew Job as a righteous man. The book of Job is often overlooked by us, but it tells me some important truth. Satan has no power beyond what God allows him. He will not allow me to be tested beyond my strength! I’ve had people ask me as a believer why God allows such miseries that befall His people. Things like 9/11. He sure dropped the ball there, right? Job 38 provides me with the answers I seek. God answered Job out of the Whirlwind. “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth?” His knowledge is far greater than mine. He sent His Son to pay for my transgressions. Nothing I can do but believe in His love for me. Like I said, if I’m wrong I’m worm food.
God is your maker. Every knee shall bow to Him. I prefer to do so willingly as I am not self-made.
That does nothing to explain what "God" is. Nor are we made. We don't pop into existence through an act of divine creation. We are born and grow and die through a natural biological process.
Nope…. You are wrong again…
Psalm 139:13-16
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
If it makes you feel better, protest as much as you like. The fact remains that we have countless versions of God and gods, yet not a scrap of evidence that any of them exist.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
But what if your wrong?
And what if you're wrong, and the correct answer is Mormons?
Well, you again make me smile!
Seems to me that over time and dialogue, you and I pretty well know one another’s stated beliefs….
But anyway,
The key question here…for you…as I have asked before….”What will happen to you after you die ….. if I am right and you are wrong?”
I don’t want that for you…..
If you are right I'd rather stand before him honest in my disbelief than lying sycophant.
No, I never have. Was forced to go to Sunday school around age 5 and then church after that. Both were pure torture to attend. I just can not accept the concept of I better believe or else I will spend forever roasting in hell. This goes against everything people preach about that god is forgiving and kind. The entire concept of religion is based upon convincing someone to be afraid of something they can not see. Fear is not, and never has been, a great motivation technique. My religion is the Golden Rule. If that doesn’t make me a good person then so be it.
And, I sometimes wonder what God thinks of the manifold and diverse reasons, explanations, doubts, rationales and rejections expressed about God by humans.
God is your maker. Every knee shall bow to Him. I prefer to do so willingly as I am not self-made.
That does nothing to explain what "God" is. Nor are we made. We don't pop into existence through an act of divine creation. We are born and grow and die through a natural biological process.
God is not a magician. We did COME into existence by an act of divine creation. But that was a process not bounded by our sense of time. Anything in existence has a trail of creation behind. This trail is simply the process by which God controlled creation. We are not evidence of a random “pop into existence” but evidence of creation by superior intelligence. That intelligence is God; an existence in another sphere of reality unexplained by earthly science.
God is the Supreme Scientist; the source of all things created. His explanation to me of how exactly His process of creation works is tantamount to me explaining to a dog exactly how a dark room becomes lighted when he and I go in. Imagine explaining electricity to a dog. That to me is comparable to God attempted to explain his abilities to us.
Beyond all that is faith, but faith by discovery not declaration. That is faith through interaction. I can’t advise anyone how to achieve that for themselves other than such as this scripture:
Jeremiah 29:13 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
It may sound strange coming from me but this is real. Careful when you seek safe harbor from God, when you pray sincerely for his intervention in your life. I say this in all sincerity. He is a goal oriented being not subject to how you want things to play out aka process oriented defined by you. I came to know this at a pivotal time in my life a couple of years ago. He is real. Belief or opinion aside He is real.
Re: Pearly Gates…. Nope, never seen them….what ever they may or may not be….but perhaps you would equate seeing the Pearly Gates as some sort of confirmation or justification of belief. I don’t hold to that idea.
Wouldn’t it seem logical that if God was real He would make Himself known to us?
He does make the reality of Himself known….to each and every one of us….. then the question becomes “What do I do about it?”
You can follow up and seek God….. or one can rebel, ignore or otherwise reject God and His claim on you.
God is your maker. Every knee shall bow to Him. I prefer to do so willingly as I am not self-made.
That does nothing to explain what "God" is. Nor are we made. We don't pop into existence through an act of divine creation. We are born and grow and die through a natural biological process.
God is not a magician. We did COME into existence by an act of divine creation. But that was a process not bounded by our sense of time. Anything in existence has a trail of creation behind. This trail is simply the process by which God controlled creation. We are not evidence of a random “pop into existence” but evidence of creation by superior intelligence. That intelligence is God; an existence in another sphere of reality unexplained by earthly science.
God is the Supreme Scientist; the source of all things created. His explanation to me of how exactly His process of creation works is tantamount to me explaining to a dog exactly how a dark room becomes lighted when he and I go in. Imagine explaining electricity to a dog. That to me is comparable to God attempted to explain his abilities to us.
Beyond all that is faith, but faith by discovery not declaration. That is faith through interaction. I can’t advise anyone how to achieve that for themselves other than such as this scripture:
Jeremiah 29:13 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
It may sound strange coming from me but this is real. Careful when you seek safe harbor from God, when you pray sincerely for his intervention in your life. I say this in all sincerity. He is a goal oriented being not subject to how you want things to play out aka process oriented defined by you. I came to know this at a pivotal time in my life a couple of years ago. He is real. Belief or opinion aside He is real.
More like a little brat who needs to be scolded and sent to his room:
The Squire of Gothos" is the 17th episode of the first season of the American science-fiction television series, Star Trek. Written by Paul Schneider, and directed by Don McDougall, it first aired on January 12, 1967.
In the episode, the childish but powerful ruler of the planet Gothos captures the crew of the Enterprise for his own amusement.
Plot The USS Enterprise, under the command of Captain Kirk, is on an 8-day supply mission to Colony Beta VI. Passing through a "star desert," the ship encounters a rogue planet previously hidden from their sensors. As Lt. Sulu attempts to enter a course around the planet, he suddenly vanishes from the bridge, and Kirk vanishes a moment later.
First Officer Spock assumes that the two must have been taken to the planet, though sensor readings indicate the planet's atmosphere is lethal to most forms of life. The Enterprise then receives a strange message on a viewscreen in blackletter writing: "Greetings and Felicitations!", followed by "Hip hip hoorah. Tallyho!" Spock orders Chief Medical Officer Dr. McCoy, along with Lt. DeSalle and geophysicist Karl Jaeger, to form a landing party and conduct a search.
The landing party beams down and unexpectedly finds itself in a lush and breathable environment. They also come across what appears to be a medieval castle, within which they find Captain Kirk and Lt. Sulu, immobilized, along with a humanoid being who identifies himself as "General Trelane, retired", and invites everyone to stay as his guests on his world, which he calls Gothos. He also explains that his hobby is studying Earth history and still (wrongly) believes Earth is engaging in world conquest. McCoy's medical tricorder is unable to identify him as a living being.
Spock manages to locate the landing party in a minute zone of breathable atmosphere, and beams everyone, except Trelane, back to the ship by locking onto every detectable lifeform in the area. Trelane, however, appears on the bridge of the Enterprise, and brings the entire bridge crew down to the planet, including Spock, Communications Officer Lt. Uhura, and Yeoman Teresa Ross. Trelane invites his "guests" to partake of his food (which has no taste), and his brandy (which also has no taste). Spock reasons that Trelane knows only the forms of Earth's history and not the substances, the equivalent of someone 900 light years away from Earth who is studying Earth history through a telescope, but having no concept that 400 years have passed.
Kirk's patience starts wearing thin, especially when Trelane dances with Yeoman Ross and changes her standard red uniform into a 19th-century ball gown. Kirk and Spock both notice that he never strays far from a particular wall mirror, and they believe that the mirror is the source of his powers. To test this theory, Kirk provokes Trelane into a duel, and during the fight, he destroys the mirror and damages some strange machinery inside. The bridge crew then beams back to the Enterprise, but as the ship attempts to warp away, the planet Gothos keeps appearing in its path. Kirk finally orders the Enterprise into orbit and decides to beam down.
On the planet, Kirk finds Trelane seated on a courtroom bench, dressed in the white wig and robes reminiscent of an English circuit judge. Trelane reads charges of "treason", "conspiracy", and "fomenting insurrection", and then, silencing Kirk's protests, condemns Kirk to death by hanging. Kirk, however, points out that Trelane could find a more stimulating alternative. Trelane suggests that Kirk be prey for a royal hunt, and Kirk agrees in return for the release of his ship. The hunt begins, and Kirk is eventually cornered at the castle entrance, but he remains defiant, and even slaps Trelane across the face twice, and tells him he has a lot to learn about life and breaks Trelane's sword. Outraged, Trelane tells Kirk he didn't play the game right.
Suddenly, Trelane's parents - who appear as two green pulsating blobs - call out to Trelane, and he yells at them, reminding him that they said he could have the planet Gothos as his very own. They yell at him for his disobedience and cruelty towards more lesser beings, and tell him several times to "come along," but he continually refuses to listen to them. Kirk listens to their argument, and realizes that Trelane is really a spoiled child, and that the planet Gothos was his "playground." After Trelane's parents take him away, they apologize to Kirk, and he asks: "Who are you? Who is Trelane?" They don't answer his questions, but they do admit it was their fault for indulging their child too much, and he will be punished. They also tell Kirk that they wouldn't have allowed Trelane to intercept them if they knew how vulnerable he was. They also maintained the life support systems on the planet while Kirk returned to his ship.
God is your maker. Every knee shall bow to Him. I prefer to do so willingly as I am not self-made.
That does nothing to explain what "God" is. Nor are we made. We don't pop into existence through an act of divine creation. We are born and grow and die through a natural biological process.
Nope…. You are wrong again…
Psalm 139:13-16
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
If it makes you feel better, protest as much as you like. The fact remains that we have countless versions of God and gods, yet not a scrap of evidence that any of them exist.
What also remains is your habit of stating your own unsubstantiated opinions as fact.
You are talking to yourself………as I have told you before, seems like “whistling in the graveyard.”
Btw…evidence abounds but you will not admit it. Interestingly, the Pharisees had Jesus in their midst and were there when he taught and did miracles……
Yet, despite the evidence right before them, they denied the deity of Christ.
Edit:
Anyway, gotta go, trout are starting to spawn and I am gonna go fishing tomorrow….signing off.
God is your maker. Every knee shall bow to Him. I prefer to do so willingly as I am not self-made.
That does nothing to explain what "God" is. Nor are we made. We don't pop into existence through an act of divine creation. We are born and grow and die through a natural biological process.
God is not a magician. We did COME into existence by an act of divine creation. But that was a process not bounded by our sense of time. Anything in existence has a trail of creation behind. This trail is simply the process by which God controlled creation. We are not evidence of a random “pop into existence” but evidence of creation by superior intelligence. That intelligence is God; an existence in another sphere of reality unexplained by earthly science.
God is the Supreme Scientist; the source of all things created. His explanation to me of how exactly His process of creation works is tantamount to me explaining to a dog exactly how a dark room becomes lighted when he and I go in. Imagine explaining electricity to a dog. That to me is comparable to God attempted to explain his abilities to us.
Beyond all that is faith, but faith by discovery not declaration. That is faith through interaction. I can’t advise anyone how to achieve that for themselves other than such as this scripture:
Jeremiah 29:13 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
It may sound strange coming from me but this is real. Careful when you seek safe harbor from God, when you pray sincerely for his intervention in your life. I say this in all sincerity. He is a goal oriented being not subject to how you want things to play out aka process oriented defined by you. I came to know this at a pivotal time in my life a couple of years ago. He is real. Belief or opinion aside He is real.
More like a little brat who needs to be scolded and sent to his room:
The Squire of Gothos" is the 17th episode of the first season of the American science-fiction television series, Star Trek. Written by Paul Schneider, and directed by Don McDougall, it first aired on January 12, 1967.
In the episode, the childish but powerful ruler of the planet Gothos captures the crew of the Enterprise for his own amusement.
Plot The USS Enterprise, under the command of Captain Kirk, is on an 8-day supply mission to Colony Beta VI. Passing through a "star desert," the ship encounters a rogue planet previously hidden from their sensors. As Lt. Sulu attempts to enter a course around the planet, he suddenly vanishes from the bridge, and Kirk vanishes a moment later.
First Officer Spock assumes that the two must have been taken to the planet, though sensor readings indicate the planet's atmosphere is lethal to most forms of life. The Enterprise then receives a strange message on a viewscreen in blackletter writing: "Greetings and Felicitations!", followed by "Hip hip hoorah. Tallyho!" Spock orders Chief Medical Officer Dr. McCoy, along with Lt. DeSalle and geophysicist Karl Jaeger, to form a landing party and conduct a search.
The landing party beams down and unexpectedly finds itself in a lush and breathable environment. They also come across what appears to be a medieval castle, within which they find Captain Kirk and Lt. Sulu, immobilized, along with a humanoid being who identifies himself as "General Trelane, retired", and invites everyone to stay as his guests on his world, which he calls Gothos. He also explains that his hobby is studying Earth history and still (wrongly) believes Earth is engaging in world conquest. McCoy's medical tricorder is unable to identify him as a living being.
Spock manages to locate the landing party in a minute zone of breathable atmosphere, and beams everyone, except Trelane, back to the ship by locking onto every detectable lifeform in the area. Trelane, however, appears on the bridge of the Enterprise, and brings the entire bridge crew down to the planet, including Spock, Communications Officer Lt. Uhura, and Yeoman Teresa Ross. Trelane invites his "guests" to partake of his food (which has no taste), and his brandy (which also has no taste). Spock reasons that Trelane knows only the forms of Earth's history and not the substances, the equivalent of someone 900 light years away from Earth who is studying Earth history through a telescope, but having no concept that 400 years have passed.
Kirk's patience starts wearing thin, especially when Trelane dances with Yeoman Ross and changes her standard red uniform into a 19th-century ball gown. Kirk and Spock both notice that he never strays far from a particular wall mirror, and they believe that the mirror is the source of his powers. To test this theory, Kirk provokes Trelane into a duel, and during the fight, he destroys the mirror and damages some strange machinery inside. The bridge crew then beams back to the Enterprise, but as the ship attempts to warp away, the planet Gothos keeps appearing in its path. Kirk finally orders the Enterprise into orbit and decides to beam down.
On the planet, Kirk finds Trelane seated on a courtroom bench, dressed in the white wig and robes reminiscent of an English circuit judge. Trelane reads charges of "treason", "conspiracy", and "fomenting insurrection", and then, silencing Kirk's protests, condemns Kirk to death by hanging. Kirk, however, points out that Trelane could find a more stimulating alternative. Trelane suggests that Kirk be prey for a royal hunt, and Kirk agrees in return for the release of his ship. The hunt begins, and Kirk is eventually cornered at the castle entrance, but he remains defiant, and even slaps Trelane across the face twice, and tells him he has a lot to learn about life and breaks Trelane's sword. Outraged, Trelane tells Kirk he didn't play the game right.
Suddenly, Trelane's parents - who appear as two green pulsating blobs - call out to Trelane, and he yells at them, reminding him that they said he could have the planet Gothos as his very own. They yell at him for his disobedience and cruelty towards more lesser beings, and tell him several times to "come along," but he continually refuses to listen to them. Kirk listens to their argument, and realizes that Trelane is really a spoiled child, and that the planet Gothos was his "playground." After Trelane's parents take him away, they apologize to Kirk, and he asks: "Who are you? Who is Trelane?" They don't answer his questions, but they do admit it was their fault for indulging their child too much, and he will be punished. They also tell Kirk that they wouldn't have allowed Trelane to intercept them if they knew how vulnerable he was. They also maintained the life support systems on the planet while Kirk returned to his ship.
My beliefs are not informed, one way or the other, by gay Hollywood producers of Star Trek.
If I’m wrong, I’ve used my belief in the Lord to help keep me morally straight. It hasn’t always worked and I often fall wayyyy short of Him, as do all Christians.
Now, if you don’t believe and you are wrong you will likely have a much larger problem if not saved before it is too late. Eternity is kind of a long time to live in hell, ya think?
God is your maker. Every knee shall bow to Him. I prefer to do so willingly as I am not self-made.
That does nothing to explain what "God" is. Nor are we made. We don't pop into existence through an act of divine creation. We are born and grow and die through a natural biological process.
Nope…. You are wrong again…
Psalm 139:13-16
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
If it makes you feel better, protest as much as you like. The fact remains that we have countless versions of God and gods, yet not a scrap of evidence that any of them exist.
What also remains is your habit of stating your own unsubstantiated opinions as fact.
You are talking to yourself………as I have told you before, seems like “whistling in the graveyard.”
Btw…evidence abounds but you will not admit it. Interestingly, the Pharisees had Jesus in their midst and were there when he taught and did miracles……
Yet, despite the evidence right before them, they denied the deity of Christ.
Edit:
Anyway, gotta go, trout are starting to spawn and I am gonna go fishing tomorrow….signing off.
The Prince of Peace gives me peace in my heart, HE preparest a Campfire for me in the midst of the Dumbassed Junkyard Dawg Crew. He restoreth my mind, body and spirit daily. HE is my defender and protector and salvation and provided HIS cleansing blood to sanctify and save me for all eternity.
If I’m wrong, I’ve used my belief in the Lord to help keep me morally straight. It hasn’t always worked and I often fall wayyyy short of Him, as do all Christians.
Now, if you don’t believe and you are wrong you will likely have a much larger problem if not saved before it is too late. Eternity is kind of a long time to live in hell, ya think?
Eternity….
This is the talk of a zealot!
Most are, they believe because they fear the unknown and have no faith in themselves.
It's always the carrot that inspires people to be followers, if you listen and believe in me you will be rewarded, given your own island loaded with virgins.
God is your maker. Every knee shall bow to Him. I prefer to do so willingly as I am not self-made.
That does nothing to explain what "God" is. Nor are we made. We don't pop into existence through an act of divine creation. We are born and grow and die through a natural biological process.
Nope…. You are wrong again…
Psalm 139:13-16
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
If it makes you feel better, protest as much as you like. The fact remains that we have countless versions of God and gods, yet not a scrap of evidence that any of them exist.
What also remains is your habit of stating your own unsubstantiated opinions as fact.
You are talking to yourself………as I have told you before, seems like “whistling in the graveyard.”
Btw…evidence abounds but you will not admit it. Interestingly, the Pharisees had Jesus in their midst and were there when he taught and did miracles……
Yet, despite the evidence right before them, they denied the deity of Christ.
Edit:
Anyway, gotta go, trout are starting to spawn and I am gonna go fishing tomorrow….signing off.
You have it backwards, as usual. You should know by now that it is evidence that justifies a belief, that evidence provides substance for what is said or claimed.
It is not I who makes the fantastic, unsubstantiated claim that there is someone, a God, who created the universe.
That is you. You make that claim without a shred of evidence.
Those of us that BELIEVE have seen, heard and felt Him and we have all the evidence we need.
For those of you who don’t believe there’s nothing that we could do in our mortal world that would be sufficient for you, no evidence that we could provide that would convince you otherwise.
i was raised a Roman Catholic, then when i turned 12yo and got my Confirmation, i stopped going to church and Catechism. then for 6 years there wasn't much of God in my life. then 18yo, i was ordered by my drill segreant to go to church/synagogue, he didn't care as long as i went. on Sundays, i went to couple of different catholic masses and even a Mormon mass....and no, i didn't find religion. i got married, had a couple of and got divorced in my 20s. it wasn't until i was in my early 30s when i decided to need something. Catholicism wasn't in my bag, so i decided i need something different. i read some books on Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Shintoism, Confucianism, Norse beliefs, Wicca, Druidism (Celtic) and North American Indian religion.
well, i believe in Animism (Native American and a little bit of Shinto/Chinese Folk religion). whether is a man, insect, animal, rock or a thunderstorm, everything has a soul or spirit. i also believe in my ancestors. i believe in a divine spirit, but he does not interact with us. He created the world and everything in it and then he left it with his sons and daughters or demigods.
believe or not, i don't care and neither should you.
however, i do believe in science and math. i don't believe in liberal causes and their aftereffects.
I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.
Yes, I believe in God and believe that Jesus is Lord. I do not think anyone has all the right answers or the correct interpretations. I do hate how many use belief to line their pockets, but don't fret over it much. I figure only God can sort it out.
i was raised a Roman Catholic, then when i turned 12yo and got my Confirmation, i stopped going to church and Catechism. then for 6 years there wasn't much of God in my life. then 18yo, i was ordered by my drill segreant to go to church/synagogue, he didn't care as long as i went. on Sundays, i went to couple of different catholic masses and even a Mormon mass....and no, i didn't find religion. i got married, had a couple of and got divorced in my 20s. it wasn't until i was in my early 30s when i decided to need something. Catholicism wasn't in my bag, so i decided i need something different. i read some books on Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Shintoism, Confucianism, Norse beliefs, Wicca, Druidism (Celtic) and North American Indian religion.
well, i believe in Animism (Native American and a little bit of Shinto/Chinese Folk religion). whether is a man, insect, animal, rock or a thunderstorm, everything has a soul or spirit. i also believe in my ancestors. i believe in a divine spirit, but he does not interact with us. He created the world and everything in it and then he left it with his sons and daughters or demigods.
believe or not, i don't care and neither should you.
however, i do believe in science and math. i don't believe in liberal causes and their aftereffects.
I took a lot of classes in microbiology, cell physiology, embryology and physics in college. When I learned complexity of the human body and in the universe I found it impossible to not believe in an intelligence behind the design. During one of my classes where we were studying the human immune system I had my awakening. That day is when I started to take my pursuit of knowing him more seriously. Whenever I read " Why don't Christians follow Christian values" or some derivative of that statement, it always makes me chuckle. Of course nobody follows those values perfectly, or even very well. We're humans, walking contradictions, constantly getting pulled this way and that way by the world around us. Just because we know what is right doesn't mean we are always going to choose it. The idea of " progressive sanctification " is a process, many steps forward and backwards along the way. Literally why we have to pick up our cross each and every day and pray for strength to bear it.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
But what if your wrong?
And what if you're wrong, and the correct answer is Mormons?
Well, you again make me smile!
Seems to me that over time and dialogue, you and I pretty well know one another’s stated beliefs….
But anyway,
The key question here…for you…as I have asked before….”What will happen to you after you die ….. if I am right and you are wrong?”
I don’t want that for you…..
If you are right I'd rather stand before him honest in my disbelief than lying sycophant.
Well, you chose not to answer the question…..
You asked me one time what would be my fate after death if there was no God….. as I recall, I offered to answer that question (which I did) if you answered my question….. what would be your fate if I was right and YOU were wrong.
You are again avoiding the question.
Also, you will not stand before Him and with any defense. You will claim of “honest disbelief” will be demolished and you will stand guilty of rebellion and rejection.
There…..I answered it for you.
There is no such thing as “honest disbelief.” That phrase is only a convenient lie to cover outright rejection of God.
On that happy, note….. I am off with circle hooks and roe sacks……
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Religion is man’s creation. You can still be spiritual without being religious. We were created by a “source” we can all argue about a name for it. If you have time, watch some interviews of people who have had NDE’s (near death experiences). Don’t listen to those who tell you about someone’s experience, but those where the person tells their own story. Our consciousness survives when our body dies. We are all connected. As simple as it sounds love is the key.
Jesus is lord ........what does that mean??????????
Basically, that Jesus is your Lord. Someone could believe in Jesus just like they believe in Abraham Lincoln, that he was a real person. To quantify that belief people often refer to Jesus as Lord. To call Jesus Lord is on another level of belief beyond just believing he exists or existed.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
But what if your wrong?
And what if you're wrong, and the correct answer is Mormons?
Well, you again make me smile!
Seems to me that over time and dialogue, you and I pretty well know one another’s stated beliefs….
But anyway,
The key question here…for you…as I have asked before….”What will happen to you after you die ….. if I am right and you are wrong?”
I don’t want that for you…..
If you are right I'd rather stand before him honest in my disbelief than lying sycophant.
Well, you chose not to answer the question…..
You asked me one time what would be my fate after death if there was no God….. as I recall, I offered to answer that question (which I did) if you answered my question….. what would be your fate if I was right and YOU were wrong.
You are again avoiding the question.
Also, you will not stand before Him and with any defense. You will claim of “honest disbelief” will be demolished and you will stand guilty of rebellion and rejection.
There…..I answered it for you.
There is no such thing as “honest disbelief.” That phrase is only a convenient lie to cover outright rejection of God.
On that happy, note….. I am off with circle hooks and roe sacks……
TF,
Pascals wager is a weak argument. It's nothing more than a threat cloaked as reason, just as Christian "concerns" for non-believers is more threats cloaked as altruism.
I really like how you added this little tidbit calling all non-believers liars:
Originally Posted by TF49
There is no such thing as “honest disbelief.” That phrase is only a convenient lie to cover outright rejection of God.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Each man must choose for himself what God to worship... or not worship.
To be without my God (and the ability to ask questions of Him)... I would be fundamentally lost... and far less purposeful in my daily pursuits.
*I will never tell another man how to live... or what to believe.
Jesus is lord ........what does that mean??????????
Jesus is Lord means Jesus is God and has supreme authority over all things. Faith in the Lord Jesus is required for salvation (Acts 16:31).
If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved (Romans 10:9).
Jesus is Lord, and one day every knee in heaven, on earth, and under earth will bow at the name of Jesus, and every tongue will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:9-11).
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Get the Christians to follow the morals first....then see who follows.
Good point...in fact, someone has actually "followed the morals". His name is Jesus. And it is He who I am following. I am not following Him perfectly; not even very well. That's why I need Him as my Savior. So, I guess I just answered the OP's question.
The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals.
Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad
Get the Christians to follow the morals first....then see who follows.
Originally Posted by Tgete_Ya_Go
Good point...in fact, someone has actually "followed the morals". His name is Jesus. And it is He who I am following. I am not following Him perfectly; not even very well. That's why I need Him as my Savior.
Clark, Your explanation of "Jesus is Lord" and comparison to Lincoln....calls for a level of belief beyond is beyond.
I think it is something people have read or heard and repeat.
You asked what it means, not why people say it. I'm sure that a lot of people who say it only say it because it's something they heard with no idea of what it means.
Which God? there are so many to choose from and I still havent made the pick.
Pretty serious question, I personally have chosen the one who holds my breath in His hands... "And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron, wood and stone, which do not see or hear or know; and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified."
I believe in God, not religious at all even though I grew up in a strict Christian home. A Lot of you would probably get valve out of digging into the chronologist Jason Bershears of Archaix. He was born and raised a southern Baptist and in his desire to prove and protect his beliefs in Christianity he discovered so many discrepances he is making it his mission to get the truth and facts out to people. We have been massively lied to about our history by those in power to control the masses through religion. Once you see the truth you can't unsee it.
Christians are supposed to tell non believers about God's saving grace. I've yet to understand why this upsets some people so much. Listen, believe it, don't believe it, ignore it, make fun of those who profess the truth, whatever. Just understand that is what we are tasked with doing. It isn't meant to offend or insult unbelievers, it is simply our job.
Yes, born again, washed in the blood, bible believing Christian! "The fool says in his heart there is no God" Psalm 14:1
Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22
First of all, I wasn't speeking for myself, I was quoting God himself. Second, you totally took Mat 5:22 out of context. Jesus was giving the sermon on the mount and was telling His followers if they were angry with a BROTHER with no cause to not call them names or make threats all the while bringing their offering to the Lord but first be reconciled to their brother and then bring your offering to God
I believe in God. Christians are supposed to tell non believers about God's saving grace. I've yet to understand why this upsets some people so much. Listen, believe it, don't believe it, ignore it, make fun of those who profess the truth, whatever. Just understand that is what we are tasked with doing. It isn't meant to offend or insult unbelievers, it is simply our job.
This believer, simply and yet eloquently, professes his belief and explains an important component of such belief. It is neither demanding, nor insistent nor threatening of those to whom he is supposed to witness. I like it for more than one reason, and in this moment because it puts a compelling contrast on the front page.
In this thread, quite a number of people state their belief in God and give some added insight/example material. In this same thread there are focused examples posted by folks who question, deny, challenge, deride, decry and post "whatever negative else" regarding those stated beliefs in God. They also sometimes add claims/charges/condemnations which stem from their personal observations and thinking about the matter, and some comment about the persons who believe in God. This is the critical contrast. As most of us know, it has been repeated/repeated/repeated behavior in such threads.
Please look again at what the man posted above and also consider other closely related posts by believers - which do not advance criticism or threat to those who do not believe in God and seem to align well with the reason given. Then, try objectively to discern the noted contrasting posts.
In reply to the non-threatening professions of belief, and the freedom for acceptance or rejection as one wishes, what is the cause for action - the commanding force - for those who attack/criticize/deride?
i was raised a Roman Catholic, then when i turned 12yo and got my Confirmation, i stopped going to church and Catechism. then for 6 years there wasn't much of God in my life. then 18yo, i was ordered by my drill segreant to go to church/synagogue, he didn't care as long as i went. on Sundays, i went to couple of different catholic masses and even a Mormon mass....and no, i didn't find religion. i got married, had a couple of and got divorced in my 20s. it wasn't until i was in my early 30s when i decided to need something. Catholicism wasn't in my bag, so i decided i need something different. i read some books on Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Shintoism, Confucianism, Norse beliefs, Wicca, Druidism (Celtic) and North American Indian religion.
well, i believe in Animism (Native American and a little bit of Shinto/Chinese Folk religion). whether is a man, insect, animal, rock or a thunderstorm, everything has a soul or spirit. i also believe in my ancestors. i believe in a divine spirit, but he does not interact with us. He created the world and everything in it and then he left it with his sons and daughters or demigods.
believe or not, i don't care and neither should you.
however, i do believe in science and math. i don't believe in liberal causes and their aftereffects.
Does math offer objective truth?
yes, it does. 2 + 2 = 4, unless you go with the new math....i believe the answer is mauve tangerine duck.
objective truth is based on evidence and logic. normally a republican uses it.
subjective truth is based on your feelings and opinions. normally a demoncrap uses it.
I believe in God, not religious at all even though I grew up in a strict Christian home. A Lot of you would probably get valve out of digging into the chronologist Jason Bershears of Archaix. He was born and raised a southern Baptist and in his desire to prove and protect his beliefs in Christianity he discovered so many discrepances he is making it his mission to get the truth and facts out to people. We have been massively lied to about our history by those in power to control the masses through religion. Once you see the truth you can't unsee it.
I am going to have to check him out. Christianity went off the rails early on and became an agency of the government.
i was raised a Roman Catholic, then when i turned 12yo and got my Confirmation, i stopped going to church and Catechism. then for 6 years there wasn't much of God in my life. then 18yo, i was ordered by my drill segreant to go to church/synagogue, he didn't care as long as i went. on Sundays, i went to couple of different catholic masses and even a Mormon mass....and no, i didn't find religion. i got married, had a couple of and got divorced in my 20s. it wasn't until i was in my early 30s when i decided to need something. Catholicism wasn't in my bag, so i decided i need something different. i read some books on Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Shintoism, Confucianism, Norse beliefs, Wicca, Druidism (Celtic) and North American Indian religion.
well, i believe in Animism (Native American and a little bit of Shinto/Chinese Folk religion). whether is a man, insect, animal, rock or a thunderstorm, everything has a soul or spirit. i also believe in my ancestors. i believe in a divine spirit, but he does not interact with us. He created the world and everything in it and then he left it with his sons and daughters or demigods.
believe or not, i don't care and neither should you.
however, i do believe in science and math. i don't believe in liberal causes and their aftereffects.
Does math offer objective truth?
yes, it does. 2 + 2 = 4, unless you go with the new math....i believe the answer is mauve tangerine duck.
objective truth is based on evidence and logic. normally a republican uses it.
subjective truth is based on your feelings and opinions. normally a demoncrap uses it.
Christians are supposed to tell non believers about God's saving grace. I've yet to understand why this upsets some people so much. Listen, believe it, don't believe it, ignore it, make fun of those who profess the truth, whatever. Just understand that is what we are tasked with doing. It isn't meant to offend or insult unbelievers, it is simply our job.
And when some commie climate twit preaches at you you will be fine with that, what about sitting there listening to biden or the gay brigade.
Same thing sport...it is intrusive and fucking annoying having some control freak telling me how to think.
"Objective truth refers to information or statements that correspond to reality independent of individual perspectives, emotions, or biases. It remains constant regardless of who observes or interprets it. The concept finds its roots in logic and empirical evidence, emphasizing the necessity of verifiable and repeatable facts.
Objective truth doesn’t waver based on personal opinions or cultural norms; rather, it remains steadfast and unchanging."
as i said 2 + 2 = 4. if you have 2 apples and you add another 2 apples, how many apples do you have? 4
hold a ball at shoulder length, turn your hand over and let the ball go. what happens? the ball falls down to the floor.
each of these cases always come to the truth. now if you were outside in space and turn your hand over and let the ball go, it will probably stay there. why? you changed locations. on Earth, the ball will fall. in space, the ball will stay there.
if you are in space and you have 2 apples and then you add another 2 apples, you have 4 apples.
Someone mentioned Christian values earlier in this thread. I do think many of the Christian values are very good and should be followed. However, there are some that either clearly need to be revised or need to be re-interpreted. For example, we tend to "turn the other cheek" too much, we show far too much of "love they neighbor" with our tendency to have open borders and flood the country with trash, we show "forgiveness" of criminals far too much and adhere to "thou shall not kill" with criminals when they should be executed. And that should include the criminally insane as well- get rid of them.
I hope there is a God. If there is, I believe he will be good. Not just a being that is waiting for the day he can send millions to burn in hell. What kind of God would that be? What kind of God would even make a place like hell knowing he was going to send people there? I do believe that Christianity teaches people to be good and that makes the world a better place. It also gives people relief when they have death in their family and when they are close to death themselves. I have no problem with people being religious. I do not believe that the people who make the right choice will walk on streets of gold and the ones that make the wrong choice will burn for eternity. I mean come on man.....
I was raised in an Independent, Fundamental, Bible believing, missionary minded, tithe giving Baptist church. I've read the Bible over and over and attended Baptist Jr High, High School and Bible college. And I think it did me a lot of good but I still just hope there is a good God.
"Objective truth refers to information or statements that correspond to reality independent of individual perspectives, emotions, or biases. It remains constant regardless of who observes or interprets it. The concept finds its roots in logic and empirical evidence, emphasizing the necessity of verifiable and repeatable facts.
Objective truth doesn’t waver based on personal opinions or cultural norms; rather, it remains steadfast and unchanging."
as i said 2 + 2 = 4. if you have 2 apples and you add another 2 apples, how many apples do you have? 4
hold a ball at shoulder length, turn your hand over and let the ball go. what happens? the ball falls down to the floor.
each of these cases always come to the truth. now if you were outside in space and turn your hand over and let the ball go, it will probably stay there. why? you changed locations. on Earth, the ball will fall. in space, the ball will stay there.
if you are in space and you have 2 apples and then you add another 2 apples, you have 4 apples.
Objective truth emanates from something beyond humanity. Such things are by their nature eternal. An absolute if you will. This points to intelligent design and the only one that can be is God. As for believing it is an article of faith.
"Objective truth refers to information or statements that correspond to reality independent of individual perspectives, emotions, or biases. It remains constant regardless of who observes or interprets it. The concept finds its roots in logic and empirical evidence, emphasizing the necessity of verifiable and repeatable facts.
Objective truth doesn’t waver based on personal opinions or cultural norms; rather, it remains steadfast and unchanging."
as i said 2 + 2 = 4. if you have 2 apples and you add another 2 apples, how many apples do you have? 4
hold a ball at shoulder length, turn your hand over and let the ball go. what happens? the ball falls down to the floor.
each of these cases always come to the truth. now if you were outside in space and turn your hand over and let the ball go, it will probably stay there. why? you changed locations. on Earth, the ball will fall. in space, the ball will stay there.
if you are in space and you have 2 apples and then you add another 2 apples, you have 4 apples.
Objective truth emanates from something beyond humanity. Such things are by their nature eternal. An absolute if you will. This points to intelligent design and the only one that can be is God. As for believing it is an article of faith.
The Bible says with the faith of a mustard seed, you can remove a mountain. Surely your faith is that of a mustard seed. Can you please remove a moutain for us?
I will tell you that my run in with Cancer in 21 and 22 put me farther from God for quite a while. I just wasn't feeling it. I prayed a lot in those two years, but I didn't feel the answers coming. I finally deduced it was in the receiver and not the transmitter. By whatever mechanism, for whatever reason, the Cancer had attenuated my contact with the Holy Spirit. Once I got my head around that and changed the way I was praying, it was like swinging a directional antenna into the beam.
In retrospect, I realize miracles were happening all around me during that phase of my life. I had the dice rolling my way far too many times not to realize the dice were fixed. I was just too sick to see it.
Last week the Oncologist told me he could not call me "Cancer-free," but that he thought I should go about my life as though I was. It pretty much put a coda on the end of things. The week before, I was invited by an old co-worker to walk through the plant. They'd shut down operations after I left and the property is being sold. I went through and scrounged some cables and power strips. I'd spent 5 years there doing the networks, servers and end user support. My buddy kept asking "Are you up to this?" as I went diving under desks and scrambling around unhooking things. It then dawned on me that he hadn't seen me work in 3 years. Truth is, I'm feeling better now than most of that 5 year sting. I was sicker than I thought, and just thought it was old age creeping up on me.
The Good Lord, for whatever reason, stacked those dice so I could be here to tell you this.
"Objective truth refers to information or statements that correspond to reality independent of individual perspectives, emotions, or biases. It remains constant regardless of who observes or interprets it. The concept finds its roots in logic and empirical evidence, emphasizing the necessity of verifiable and repeatable facts.
Objective truth doesn’t waver based on personal opinions or cultural norms; rather, it remains steadfast and unchanging."
as i said 2 + 2 = 4. if you have 2 apples and you add another 2 apples, how many apples do you have? 4
hold a ball at shoulder length, turn your hand over and let the ball go. what happens? the ball falls down to the floor.
each of these cases always come to the truth. now if you were outside in space and turn your hand over and let the ball go, it will probably stay there. why? you changed locations. on Earth, the ball will fall. in space, the ball will stay there.
if you are in space and you have 2 apples and then you add another 2 apples, you have 4 apples.
Objective truth emanates from something beyond humanity. Such things are by their nature eternal. An absolute if you will. This points to intelligent design and the only one that can be is God. As for believing it is an article of faith.
Why does God always get the praise for good things in a persons life yet is never blamed for the bad?
Cancer in kids? Kids molested? Especially the ones molested by the evil scum church authorities. Why doesn't god stop any of these things from happening to his disciples?
Why does God always get the praise for good things in a persons life yet is never blamed for the bad?
Cancer in kids? Kids molested? Especially the ones molested by the evil scum church authorities. Why doesn't god stop any of these things from happening to his disciples?
Cuz they deserved it!!
Wait, no, to teach the people around them a lesson!!
I believe that was a reference to doubt in the mind and the heart not a literal mountain but you did understand that right?
My point exactly. That's why I don't believe in all the heaven and hell stuff. If the bible is true, it's written where we cannot comprehend everything it says. Or it's just not true. I have not been smart enough to figure it out. I just know I would never want to be on the streets of gold while others in the world are burning in a hell. That is just ridiculous to think that is truth. If it is truth, then God is bad. I don't believe that if God is real, he is bad. I hope he would be a good and great God or nothing at all.
I just know I would never want to be on the streets of gold while others in the world are burning in a hell. That is just ridiculous to think that is truth. If it is truth, then God is bad. I don't believe that if God is real, he is bad. I hope he would be a good and great God or nothing at all.
This is what causes me not to believe. How could any God with all his forgiveness and love be such a prick and send people to hell just because they didn't believe in him? I just don't get it.
I'm glad so many of you have such deep faith. But my brain just isnt wired that way.
I just know I would never want to be on the streets of gold while others in the world are burning in a hell. That is just ridiculous to think that is truth. If it is truth, then God is bad. I don't believe that if God is real, he is bad. I hope he would be a good and great God or nothing at all.
This is what causes me not to believe. How could any God with all his forgiveness and love be such a prick and send people to hell just because they didn't believe in him? I just don't get it.
I'm glad so many of you have such deep faith. But my brain just isnt wired that way.
It is a bit hard to understand that God deliberately made people, knowing that to the best of their abilities after examining all the evidence and being completely honest about it, that they would fail to believe that he exists, and then punishing them by sending them to hell because they fail to believe, when he himself was negligent by making them that way!
"Objective truth refers to information or statements that correspond to reality independent of individual perspectives, emotions, or biases. It remains constant regardless of who observes or interprets it. The concept finds its roots in logic and empirical evidence, emphasizing the necessity of verifiable and repeatable facts.
Objective truth doesn’t waver based on personal opinions or cultural norms; rather, it remains steadfast and unchanging."
as i said 2 + 2 = 4. if you have 2 apples and you add another 2 apples, how many apples do you have? 4
hold a ball at shoulder length, turn your hand over and let the ball go. what happens? the ball falls down to the floor.
each of these cases always come to the truth. now if you were outside in space and turn your hand over and let the ball go, it will probably stay there. why? you changed locations. on Earth, the ball will fall. in space, the ball will stay there.
if you are in space and you have 2 apples and then you add another 2 apples, you have 4 apples.
Objective truth emanates from something beyond humanity. Such things are by their nature eternal. An absolute if you will. This points to intelligent design and the only one that can be is God. As for believing it is an article of faith.
Buuuuullshìt.
Let’s hear your contra argument then. If objective truth is not man made then it is made by something else is it not?
In the end each of us will have the ultimate question answered.
I just know I would never want to be on the streets of gold while others in the world are burning in a hell. That is just ridiculous to think that is truth. If it is truth, then God is bad. I don't believe that if God is real, he is bad. I hope he would be a good and great God or nothing at all.
This is what causes me not to believe. How could any God with all his forgiveness and love be such a prick and send people to hell just because they didn't believe in him? I just don't get it.
I'm glad so many of you have such deep faith. But my brain just isnt wired that way.
People go to hell because they/we are sinners myself included. God is good and loving but don't forget that he is also righteous. God desires that no one go to hell but He didn't make robots, we have free will. Thats why He sent his Son to die on a cross. Jesus took the punishment WE had coming and thus we can be forgiven by just believing and excepting that forgiveness. You ask if God is loving, well would you send your own son to die for someone else... There's an old saying that people have to step over Jesus dead body to get to hell.
One of the first things I'm going to ask God when I get to heaven is why does he allow priests to molest innocent young children who are sent to church so as to learn about God and to become good Christians? I'm also going to ask why God deliberately made people, knowing that to the best of their abilities after examining all the evidence and being completely honest about it, that they would fail to believe that he exists, and then punishing them by sending them to hell because they fail to believe, when he himself was negligent by making them that way? Unlike other members on this forum, unless God has a pretty good answer to these two questions, I'm not going to want to spend much time with him in heaven...until he changes his ways.
I believe that was a reference to doubt in the mind and the heart not a literal mountain but you did understand that right?
My point exactly. That's why I don't believe in all the heaven and hell stuff. If the bible is true, it's written where we cannot comprehend everything it says. Or it's just not true. I have not been smart enough to figure it out. I just know I would never want to be on the streets of gold while others in the world are burning in a hell. That is just ridiculous to think that is truth. If it is truth, then God is bad. I don't believe that if God is real, he is bad. I hope he would be a good and great God or nothing at all.
The biblical version of god is a huge disappointment - not sure why anybody would want to worship something like that. Luckily there's no reason to believe any of it to be true.
One of the first things I'm going to ask God when I get to heaven is why does he allow priests to molest innocent young children who are sent to church so as to learn about God and to become good Christians? I'm also going to ask why God deliberately made people, knowing that to the best of their abilities after examining all the evidence and being completely honest about it, that they would fail to believe that he exists, and then punishing them by sending them to hell because they fail to believe, when he himself was negligent by making them that way? Unlike other members on this forum, unless God has a pretty good answer to these two questions, I'm not going to want to spend much time with him in heaven...until he changes his ways.
One thing I want to add is that I'm not against religion. And I'm not trying to change anybody's mind about how they believe. Unless it's Joel Oldsteen type shiit and he's stealing your money. He's nothing but a fugging thief. I think religion does a lot of good and teaches people to be good. But if you think I'm going to trust a priest or a preacher to be alone with my kids, hell no! Just saying...
One of the first things I'm going to ask God when I get to heaven is why does he allow priests to molest innocent young children who are sent to church so as to learn about God and to become good Christians? I'm also going to ask why God deliberately made people, knowing that to the best of their abilities after examining all the evidence and being completely honest about it, that they would fail to believe that he exists, and then punishing them by sending them to hell because they fail to believe, when he himself was negligent by making them that way? Unlike other members on this forum, unless God has a pretty good answer to these two questions, I'm not going to want to spend much time with him in heaven...until he changes his ways.
You won’t get the opportunity to “ask” him anything with that mindset.
SOMETHING created the universe. It cannot have created itself. The nature of that creator is open to debate and much mystery.
The problem with that argument is that if something must have created the universe, then something must have also created God. So there must be another God to create the first God, and so it goes on and on.
The problem with this argument is there is no evidence that the universe was created, the Possibly exists that it has always existed .
SOMETHING created the universe. It cannot have created itself. The nature of that creator is open to debate and much mystery.
The problem with that argument is that if something must have created the universe, then something must have also created God. So there must be another God to create the first God, and so it goes on and on.
The problem with this argument is there is no evidence that the universe was created, the Possibly exists that it has always existed .
You ever hear of the first and second law of thermal dynamics?
"Objective truth refers to information or statements that correspond to reality independent of individual perspectives, emotions, or biases. It remains constant regardless of who observes or interprets it. The concept finds its roots in logic and empirical evidence, emphasizing the necessity of verifiable and repeatable facts.
Objective truth doesn’t waver based on personal opinions or cultural norms; rather, it remains steadfast and unchanging."
as i said 2 + 2 = 4. if you have 2 apples and you add another 2 apples, how many apples do you have? 4
hold a ball at shoulder length, turn your hand over and let the ball go. what happens? the ball falls down to the floor.
each of these cases always come to the truth. now if you were outside in space and turn your hand over and let the ball go, it will probably stay there. why? you changed locations. on Earth, the ball will fall. in space, the ball will stay there.
if you are in space and you have 2 apples and then you add another 2 apples, you have 4 apples.
Objective truth emanates from something beyond humanity. Such things are by their nature eternal. An absolute if you will. This points to intelligent design and the only one that can be is God. As for believing it is an article of faith.
Buuuuullshìt.
Let’s hear your contra argument then. If objective truth is not man made then it is made by something else is it not?
In the end each of us will have the ultimate question answered.
2 rocks plus 2 rocks is 4 rocks. No one "made" it so, it just is.
Zeus, no Zeus, Quetzalcóatl, no Quetzalcóatl, Man, no man, makes no difference, it just is.
Christians are supposed to tell non believers about God's saving grace. I've yet to understand why this upsets some people so much. Listen, believe it, don't believe it, ignore it, make fun of those who profess the truth, whatever. Just understand that is what we are tasked with doing. It isn't meant to offend or insult unbelievers, it is simply our job.
And when some commie climate twit preaches at you you will be fine with that, what about sitting there listening to biden or the gay brigade.
Same thing sport...it is intrusive and fucking annoying having some control freak telling me how to think.
At that point, I am commanded to dust off my feet and move on. Your blood will not be on my hands.
I just know I would never want to be on the streets of gold while others in the world are burning in a hell. That is just ridiculous to think that is truth. If it is truth, then God is bad. I don't believe that if God is real, he is bad. I hope he would be a good and great God or nothing at all.
This is what causes me not to believe. How could any God with all his forgiveness and love be such a prick and send people to hell just because they didn't believe in him? I just don't get it.
I'm glad so many of you have such deep faith. But my brain just isnt wired that way.
People go to hell because they/we are sinners myself included. God is good and loving but don't forget that he is also righteous. God desires that no one go to hell but He didn't make robots, we have free will. Thats why He sent his Son to die on a cross. Jesus took the punishment WE had coming and thus we can be forgiven by just believing and excepting that forgiveness. You ask if God is loving, well would you send your own son to die for someone else... There's an old saying that people have to step over Jesus dead body to get to hell.
The Jews would pile their sins upon a goat and kill it for forgiveness, the Christians said, "Hold my beer".
One of the first things I'm going to ask God when I get to heaven is why does he allow priests to molest innocent young children who are sent to church so as to learn about God and to become good Christians? I'm also going to ask why God deliberately made people, knowing that to the best of their abilities after examining all the evidence and being completely honest about it, that they would fail to believe that he exists, and then punishing them by sending them to hell because they fail to believe, when he himself was negligent by making them that way? Unlike other members on this forum, unless God has a pretty good answer to these two questions, I'm not going to want to spend much time with him in heaven...until he changes his ways.
You won’t get the opportunity to “ask” him anything with that mindset.
I believe that God will reward me for having the courage to confront him about the wrongs that have happened to people who should not have been wronged. I also think that this is a test by God, and that most of you will fail that test because you are so concerned about yourself and going to heaven, that you deliberately choose to ignore the wrongs in the name of self-preservation. This is a sign of weakness on your part. So perhaps, it will be you and some of the others on this forum who won't get the opportunity to be with God, and I will be one of the "chosen" ones.
Christians are supposed to tell non believers about God's saving grace. I've yet to understand why this upsets some people so much. Listen, believe it, don't believe it, ignore it, make fun of those who profess the truth, whatever. Just understand that is what we are tasked with doing. It isn't meant to offend or insult unbelievers, it is simply our job.
And when some commie climate twit preaches at you you will be fine with that, what about sitting there listening to biden or the gay brigade.
Same thing sport...it is intrusive and fucking annoying having some control freak telling me how to think.
At that point, I am commanded to dust off my feet and move on. Your blood will not be on my hands.
Typical Christian evangelist, ending with a passive-aggressive threat.
One of the first things I'm going to ask God when I get to heaven is why does he allow priests to molest innocent young children who are sent to church so as to learn about God and to become good Christians? I'm also going to ask why God deliberately made people, knowing that to the best of their abilities after examining all the evidence and being completely honest about it, that they would fail to believe that he exists, and then punishing them by sending them to hell because they fail to believe, when he himself was negligent by making them that way? Unlike other members on this forum, unless God has a pretty good answer to these two questions, I'm not going to want to spend much time with him in heaven...until he changes his ways.
You won’t get the opportunity to “ask” him anything with that mindset.
I believe that God will reward me for having the courage to confront him about the wrongs that have happened to people who should not have been wronged. I also think that this is a test by God, and that most of you will fail that test because you are so concerned about yourself and going to heaven, that you deliberately choose to ignore the wrongs in the name of self-preservation. This is a sign of weakness on your part. So perhaps, it will be you and some of the others on this forum who won't get the opportunity to be with God, and I will be one of the "chosen" ones.
If a just god exists, Hell is filled with cowardly sycophants.
"The Jews would pile their sins upon a goat and kill it for forgiveness, the Christians said, "Hold my beer"."
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
The most well known verse in all the bible explains it...John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
As I said in a earlier post God didn't make us robots, we all have free will to love Him, hate Him, believe Him, ignore Him or rebel against Him. He gave us that choice
"The Jews would pile their sins upon a goat and kill it for forgiveness, the Christians said, "Hold my beer"."
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
The most well known verse in all the bible explains it...John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. As I said in a earlier post God didn't make us robots, we all have free will to love Him, hate Him, believe Him, ignore Him or rebel against Him. He gave us that choice
Yessir.
Misuse of free will by the human animal is responsible for just about every malady in the world, past and present.
I do not. What I do believe is that human beings are genetically predisposed to believe in a God, some more than than others and this is why some cannot fathom that the possibility exists that God does not exist.
I do not. What I do believe is that human beings are genetically predisposed to believe in a God, some more than than others and this is why some cannot fathom that the possibility exists that God does not exist.
As you non believers so often are fond of saying, prove it.
"The Jews would pile their sins upon a goat and kill it for forgiveness, the Christians said, "Hold my beer"."
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
The most well known verse in all the bible explains it...John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. As I said in a earlier post God didn't make us robots, we all have free will to love Him, hate Him, believe Him, ignore Him or rebel against Him. He gave us that choice
More likely it's was like a Hellenistic period version of "Mad Men" brainstorming how to market their new religion.
"Hey I know, no more killing goats! Instead of the magic blood of goats or first born human sons, our religions will be powered by the blood of Gods Son. That's way cooler than goats blood, and best of all, no more religious killing of goats. It's a built in tax break!"
"Objective truth refers to information or statements that correspond to reality independent of individual perspectives, emotions, or biases. It remains constant regardless of who observes or interprets it. The concept finds its roots in logic and empirical evidence, emphasizing the necessity of verifiable and repeatable facts.
Objective truth doesn’t waver based on personal opinions or cultural norms; rather, it remains steadfast and unchanging."
as i said 2 + 2 = 4. if you have 2 apples and you add another 2 apples, how many apples do you have? 4
hold a ball at shoulder length, turn your hand over and let the ball go. what happens? the ball falls down to the floor.
each of these cases always come to the truth. now if you were outside in space and turn your hand over and let the ball go, it will probably stay there. why? you changed locations. on Earth, the ball will fall. in space, the ball will stay there.
if you are in space and you have 2 apples and then you add another 2 apples, you have 4 apples.
Objective truth emanates from something beyond humanity. Such things are by their nature eternal. An absolute if you will. This points to intelligent design and the only one that can be is God. As for believing it is an article of faith.
Buuuuullshìt.
Let’s hear your contra argument then. If objective truth is not man made then it is made by something else is it not?
In the end each of us will have the ultimate question answered.
2 rocks plus 2 rocks is 4 rocks. No one "made" it so, it just is.
Zeus, no Zeus, Quetzalcóatl, no Quetzalcóatl, Man, no man, makes no difference, it just is.
So, existence? And what is the causal agent of existence?
One thing is an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, we are all going to find out in the end. Some of us sooner than others.
I know there are angles and nobody can convince me otherwise, and since there are angles, there is God.
AMEN!
That seems like a pretty obtuse answer.
How do angles prove God?
Can you measure him with a protractor?
I believe and have faith, that one can not exist without the other.
I am not a bible thumper, I have no desire to convince anybody of anything.
Faith is a personal decision, you either have it or you do not. I grew up in a household of atheists, my remaining family members are still atheists, and I have no issues with that.
"The Jews would pile their sins upon a goat and kill it for forgiveness, the Christians said, "Hold my beer"."
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
The most well known verse in all the bible explains it...John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. As I said in a earlier post God didn't make us robots, we all have free will to love Him, hate Him, believe Him, ignore Him or rebel against Him. He gave us that choice
More likely it's was like a Hellenistic period version of "Mad Men" brainstorming how to market their new religion.
"Hey I know, no more killing goats! Instead of the magic blood of goats or first born human sons, our religions will be powered by the blood of Gods Son. That's way cooler than goats blood, and best of all, no more religious killing of goats. It's a built in tax break!"
- - - -from earlier - - - - "In reply to the non-threatening professions of belief, and the freedom for acceptance or rejection as one wishes, what is the cause for action - the commanding force - for those who attack/criticize/deride?"
I do not. What I do believe is that human beings are genetically predisposed to believe in a God, some more than than others and this is why some cannot fathom that the possibility exists that God does not exist.
As you non believers so often are fond of saying, prove it.
What a strange twist a believer is asking a non believer to (Prove) what I believe .
I do not. What I do believe is that human beings are genetically predisposed to believe in a God, some more than than others and this is why some cannot fathom that the possibility exists that God does not exist.
As you non believers so often are fond of saying, prove it.
What a strange twist a believer is asking a non believer to (Prove) what I believe .
Not at all.
Prove what you don’t believe, that there is no God.
"Objective truth refers to information or statements that correspond to reality independent of individual perspectives, emotions, or biases. It remains constant regardless of who observes or interprets it. The concept finds its roots in logic and empirical evidence, emphasizing the necessity of verifiable and repeatable facts.
Objective truth doesn’t waver based on personal opinions or cultural norms; rather, it remains steadfast and unchanging."
as i said 2 + 2 = 4. if you have 2 apples and you add another 2 apples, how many apples do you have? 4
hold a ball at shoulder length, turn your hand over and let the ball go. what happens? the ball falls down to the floor.
each of these cases always come to the truth. now if you were outside in space and turn your hand over and let the ball go, it will probably stay there. why? you changed locations. on Earth, the ball will fall. in space, the ball will stay there.
if you are in space and you have 2 apples and then you add another 2 apples, you have 4 apples.
Objective truth emanates from something beyond humanity. Such things are by their nature eternal. An absolute if you will. This points to intelligent design and the only one that can be is God. As for believing it is an article of faith.
Buuuuullshìt.
Let’s hear your contra argument then. If objective truth is not man made then it is made by something else is it not?
In the end each of us will have the ultimate question answered.
2 rocks plus 2 rocks is 4 rocks. No one "made" it so, it just is.
Zeus, no Zeus, Quetzalcóatl, no Quetzalcóatl, Man, no man, makes no difference, it just is.
So, existence? And what is the causal agent of existence?
Agent is a loaded word. Why is there existance vs non existance? We don't know.
Christians are supposed to tell non believers about God's saving grace. I've yet to understand why this upsets some people so much. Listen, believe it, don't believe it, ignore it, make fun of those who profess the truth, whatever. Just understand that is what we are tasked with doing. It isn't meant to offend or insult unbelievers, it is simply our job.
And when some commie climate twit preaches at you you will be fine with that, what about sitting there listening to biden or the gay brigade.
Same thing sport...it is intrusive and fucking annoying having some control freak telling me how to think.
At that point, I am commanded to dust off my feet and move on. Your blood will not be on my hands.
Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them under foot and then turn to attack you
May well be the reason GOD didn't want us to have tangible proof. Maybe HE didn't want those dogs and swine messing up our lives in Heaven. After all, Heaven wouldn't be Heavenly with dogs and pigs howling and squealing when the church bells ring up there they way they do on the Fire.
I just know I would never want to be on the streets of gold while others in the world are burning in a hell. That is just ridiculous to think that is truth. If it is truth, then God is bad. I don't believe that if God is real, he is bad. I hope he would be a good and great God or nothing at all.
This is what causes me not to believe. How could any God with all his forgiveness and love be such a prick and send people to hell just because they didn't believe in him? I just don't get it.
I'm glad so many of you have such deep faith. But my brain just isnt wired that way.
Tel-A-Vision and it's Puppetmaster, Satan, can trick or indoctrinate people to think that way.
Some have been tricked and indoctrinated to the point they think evil is good, Bidet got 81 million votes, the Jab will prevent Covid-19, masks prevent Covid-19, .......
God is good, flesh is evil. Everyday pick up your burden and carry it. Jesus will help you if you ask him too. With all that I am,I believe in Jesus. My relationship with Jesus is more important than anything else.
I just know I would never want to be on the streets of gold while others in the world are burning in a hell. That is just ridiculous to think that is truth. If it is truth, then God is bad. I don't believe that if God is real, he is bad. I hope he would be a good and great God or nothing at all.
This is what causes me not to believe. How could any God with all his forgiveness and love be such a prick and send people to hell just because they didn't believe in him? I just don't get it.
I'm glad so many of you have such deep faith. But my brain just isnt wired that way.
People go to hell because they/we are sinners myself included. God is good and loving but don't forget that he is also righteous. God desires that no one go to hell but He didn't make robots, we have free will. Thats why He sent his Son to die on a cross. Jesus took the punishment WE had coming and thus we can be forgiven by just believing and excepting that forgiveness. You ask if God is loving, well would you send your own son to die for someone else... There's an old saying that people have to step over Jesus dead body to get to hell.
The Jews would pile their sins upon a goat and kill it for forgiveness, the Christians said, "Hold my beer".
One thing is an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, we are all going to find out in the end. Some of us sooner than others.
I know there are angles and nobody can convince me otherwise, and since there are angles, there is God.
AMEN!
That seems like a pretty obtuse answer.
How do angles prove God?
Can you measure him with a protractor?
I believe and have faith, that one can not exist without the other.
I am not a bible thumper, I have no desire to convince anybody of anything.
Faith is a personal decision, you either have it or you do not. I grew up in a household of atheists, my remaining family members are still atheists, and I have no issues with that.
What type of brain trauma did you experience and how did it happen?
One thing is an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, we are all going to find out in the end. Some of us sooner than others.
I know there are angles and nobody can convince me otherwise, and since there are angles, there is God.
AMEN!
That seems like a pretty obtuse answer.
How do angles prove God?
Can you measure him with a protractor?
I believe and have faith, that one can not exist without the other.
I am not a bible thumper, I have no desire to convince anybody of anything.
Faith is a personal decision, you either have it or you do not. I grew up in a household of atheists, my remaining family members are still atheists, and I have no issues with that.
Bee,
An angle is a figure formed by two straight lines or rays that meet at a common endpoint. Hence the reason your answer was obtuse....
One thing is an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, we are all going to find out in the end. Some of us sooner than others.
I know there are angles and nobody can convince me otherwise, and since there are angles, there is God.
AMEN!
That seems like a pretty obtuse answer.
How do angles prove God?
Can you measure him with a protractor?
I believe and have faith, that one can not exist without the other.
I am not a bible thumper, I have no desire to convince anybody of anything.
Faith is a personal decision, you either have it or you do not. I grew up in a household of atheists, my remaining family members are still atheists, and I have no issues with that.
Bee,
An angle is a figure formed by two straight lines or rays that meet at a common endpoint. Hence the reason your answer was obtuse....
So, in your pea brain, if someone spells angel rong, that means they're ain't no Gawd, rite?
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
You may not believe in God now but soon enough you will, all atheists and professing unbelievers become instant believers one second after their spirit is recalled. As a matter of fact your own words will convict you when you stand before that uncreated Being who today desires to be your Savior but then will be your Judge. What an awful thought to have a chance of salvation and not only rejected it but boast of rejecting it and then throughout eternity being tormented not only by the flames of lake of fire but by the lost opportunities of being saved. I pity you my friend.
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
You may not believe in God now but soon enough you will, all atheists and professing unbelievers become instant believers one second after their spirit is recalled. As a matter of fact your own words will convict you when you stand before that uncreated Being who today desires to be your Savior but then will be your Judge. What an awful thought to have a chance of salvation and not only rejected it but boast of rejecting it and then throughout eternity being tormented not only by the flames of lake of fire but by the lost opportunities of being saved. I pity you my friend.
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
Please explain how sending your only son to his death is a sign of love?
Dude, you're using up my bandwidth. I'll give you the verse again...
John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And this, Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates his own LOVE for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
Please explain how sending your only son to his death is a sign of love?
Dude, you're using up my bandwidth. I'll give you the verse again...
John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And this, Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates his own LOVE for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
If God can do anything then why did he need to give up his son so others could have everlasting life? He accomplished absolutely nothing by allowing his own son to die.
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
Please explain how sending your only son to his death is a sign of love?
And how it's in any way moral?
It is. What it is all about is much more than what's obvious. The problem, well, I'm probably going to sound like a jerk to you, but that truly is not my intention. The problem is that it would take several pages to explain it, and you still wouldn't understand it, because your heart is closed to it. No explanation would satisfy you, unless you were open to it.
It's like love. Think of some woman, politician, actress, anyone, that you despise. There is nothing anyone can say or do that would make you love her, unless you wanted to. It's the same with God, unless you open your heart, the Bible will just be a book of nonsense.
Now, I was raised, and still am a Catholic, although I attend a different church. And, there was a lot they didn't explain, I've learned a lot more on my own, but that doesn't make them wrong, in fact, I've been thinking I should go back.
Now, as far as God, Jesus' sacrifice, Heaven and Hell go, there is way more going on than you will ever learn by simply reading the Bible, and there is a tremendous amount of symbolism in it, it's not a scientific journal with everything spelled out. And the context it was written in is pretty much all lost to us unless we do a lot of additional reading. There's a lot of additional material written at the same time as the Bible, that was left out. And without that material to reference, there's a lot of the Bible that doesn't make sense.
So, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross isn't just about God's love for us, it's also about a much larger spiritual battle being played out. It's complicated, and I don't completely understand it, but I accept it.
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
Please explain how sending your only son to his death is a sign of love?
And how it's in any way moral?
You're asking a very complicated question that I may not not be able to answer to your satisfaction. The God of the bible is a triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God the father sent his son Jesus the Christ to die on a cross to reconcile human kind back into a right relationship with him. This was the plan from the beginning that God the son would be born of a virgin, live a sinless life and be crucified. Jesus was in full accordance with this, Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” So with that being said it wasn't a matter of morals but a matter of sacrifice and love.
One thing is an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, we are all going to find out in the end. Some of us sooner than others.
I know there are angles and nobody can convince me otherwise, and since there are angles, there is God.
AMEN!
That seems like a pretty obtuse answer.
How do angles prove God?
Can you measure him with a protractor?
I believe and have faith, that one can not exist without the other.
I am not a bible thumper, I have no desire to convince anybody of anything.
Faith is a personal decision, you either have it or you do not. I grew up in a household of atheists, my remaining family members are still atheists, and I have no issues with that.
Bee,
An angle is a figure formed by two straight lines or rays that meet at a common endpoint. Hence the reason your answer was obtuse....
So, in your pea brain, if someone spells angel rong, that means they're ain't no Gawd, rite?
Figgers.
I thought you converted to a new religion are are now a disciple of Q.
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
Please explain how sending your only son to his death is a sign of love?
Dude, you're using up my bandwidth. I'll give you the verse again...
John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And this, Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates his own LOVE for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Why the need for the blood, torture, and human sacrifice?
If He's God he could skip all of that a move straight to Grace.
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
Please explain how sending your only son to his death is a sign of love?
Dude, you're using up my bandwidth. I'll give you the verse again...
John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And this, Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates his own LOVE for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
If God can do anything then why did he need to give up his son so others could have everlasting life? He accomplished absolutely nothing by allowing his own son to die.
Your questions could take hours but I'll do my best. God CAN do anything but again He made us in his own image, meaning intellectual thought with free will, not living purely by instinct like animals or without emotions or thought like a robot. When we sinned it broke the relationship with God but God loves us enough to want us brought back into a right relationship with him. If he had made us like robots there would be no relationship whatsoever. Just pull the string and we say "I love you, I love you, etc". But with free will there can be love and goodness but also rebellion and sin. Because of sin and rebellion this was necessary, Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates his own LOVE for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood.
Now to the accomplishment. Adam and Eve were created to live forever but God warned them if they sinned they would surely die. Well they did sin and then tried to hide or cover themselves with fig leaves. When God saw this the fig leaves were taken away and the first animal was killed to "cover" their sin. So the sacrificial system was started. In the book of Hebrews it says that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin". And also says "For the law, being a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect". Meaning the sacrifices were only temporary and did not accomplish the reconciliation of God and man. Only a perfect/sinless sacrifice could do that, enter Jesus, the Lamb of God. Not only did He live a perfect life but he laid it down willingly to pay the penalty for our sin. So the accomplishment was the removal of our sin for those who believe and ask so we can go back into a right relationship with God and The Resurrection is proof that we will spend eternity with him.
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
Please explain how sending your only son to his death is a sign of love?
Dude, you're using up my bandwidth. I'll give you the verse again...
John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And this, Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates his own LOVE for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Why the need for the blood, torture, and human sacrifice?
If He's God he could skip all of that a move straight to Grace.
Please read my response to Snowwolf, it might answer some of these questions and thanks for asking I might get to skip my Bible study Wednesday lol
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
Please explain how sending your only son to his death is a sign of love?
Dude, you're using up my bandwidth. I'll give you the verse again...
John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And this, Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates his own LOVE for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Why the need for the blood, torture, and human sacrifice?
If He's God he could skip all of that a move straight to Grace.
So the most innocent one could suffer the ultimate pain and disgrace so that HIS suffering and blood could atone for your sins and shortcomings. There was a price to be paid for your salvation to be avaliable, whether you reject it or not.
HE suffered and died knowing many would not appreciate His greatest efforts in order to give them the greatest gift of all. HIS blood was so clean it could wash away your most evil transgressions if you only asked.
Should he have given HIS blood to any for free? HIS cleansing blood was the most precious in the world and HE only asked you a pittance for it.
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
Please explain how sending your only son to his death is a sign of love?
Dude, you're using up my bandwidth. I'll give you the verse again...
John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And this, Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates his own LOVE for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Why the need for the blood, torture, and human sacrifice?
If He's God he could skip all of that a move straight to Grace.
So the most innocent one could suffer the ultimate pain and disgrace so that HIS suffering and blood could atone for your sins and shortcomings. There was a price to be paid for your salvation to be avaliable, whether you reject it or not.
HE suffered and died knowing many would not appreciate His greatest efforts in order to give them the greatest gift of all. HIS blood was so clean it could wash away your most evil transgressions if you only asked.
Should he have given HIS blood to any for free? HIS cleansing blood was the most precious in the world and HE only asked you a pittance for it.
It wasn't nearly as much suffering for Jesus as it would be for a normal person. He had full knowledge that it wasn't really the end for him and that he was merely passing from one place to another. In the new place he would be worshipped, respected for evermore. Sure, there was some temporary pain, but he knew he would transcend all that.
Sheesh. TF Like you know what it's like being crucified.
Yes there was a lot of pain, but extreme physical pain cuts out once it reaches a certain level, so that mainly leaves the mental component. But he had that all under control, he knew there was no finality, knew where he was going and knew he had a great future in another realm. Sure, I wouldn't like to go through a crucifixion, but I would much rather be Jesus than anybody else going through it.
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
In many ways, knowing that you were going to become the most famous person on earth ever to have existed but have to suffer some pain for several days, would be better than just living for years as a vegetable in an old person's care facility and never being anything or anyone. And then there's the years of pain that some of these victims of child sex abuse by priests suffer (that God has allowed to happen), before it gets too much for them with some committing suicide...I'd much rather go through a crucifixion as Jesus and suffer for just a few days.
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
Please explain how sending your only son to his death is a sign of love?
Dude, you're using up my bandwidth. I'll give you the verse again...
John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And this, Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates his own LOVE for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Why the need for the blood, torture, and human sacrifice?
If He's God he could skip all of that a move straight to Grace.
So the most innocent one could suffer the ultimate pain and disgrace so that HIS suffering and blood could atone for your sins and shortcomings. There was a price to be paid for your salvation to be avaliable, whether you reject it or not.
HE suffered and died knowing many would not appreciate His greatest efforts in order to give them the greatest gift of all. HIS blood was so clean it could wash away your most evil transgressions if you only asked.
Should he have given HIS blood to any for free? HIS cleansing blood was the most precious in the world and HE only asked you a pittance for it.
It wasn't nearly as much suffering for Jesus as it would be for a normal person. He had full knowledge that it wasn't really the end for him and that he was merely passing from one place to another. In the new place he would be worshipped, respected for evermore. Sure, there was some temporary pain, but he knew he would transcend all that.
A proper sacrifice would be if Jesus went to hell on our behalf. The fable is screwed up and even the believers can't make sense of it - "It's complicated..." LOL!!!
I took a lot of classes in microbiology, cell physiology, embryology and physics in college. When I learned complexity of the human body and in the universe I found it impossible to not believe in an intelligence behind the design. During one of my classes where we were studying the human immune system I had my awakening. That day is when I started to take my pursuit of knowing him more seriously. Whenever I read " Why don't Christians follow Christian values" or some derivative of that statement, it always makes me chuckle. Of course nobody follows those values perfectly, or even very well. We're humans, walking contradictions, constantly getting pulled this way and that way by the world around us. Just because we know what is right doesn't mean we are always going to choose it. The idea of " progressive sanctification " is a process, many steps forward and backwards along the way. Literally why we have to pick up our cross each and every day and pray for strength to bear it.
So God created Malaria, Bubonic plague, Leprosy, Smallpox, Tuberculosis, Cholera, Anthrax, Tetanis, etc?
So God created Malaria, Bubonic plague, Leprosy, Smallpox, Tuberculosis, Cholera, Anthrax, Tetanis, etc?
God created a utopia first, free of all that and everything else, but with man's sin and disobeying God, the world has fallen. This world is what it is, mostly controlled by Satan as evident by the widespread pain and suffering.
None of that exists in Heaven, as promised by God, and the only way there is through believing in His Son as your Savior. It's a choice only each person can make.
The question of, “Is there a God…?,” is typically an off ramp to faith, not an on ramp to faith. The question to ask…especially when it comes to considering if Christianity is something that’s even worth taking seriously or even worth considering…the question is this: is the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or ~ not and ~ or John a reliable account of actual events…? This is the issue, this is the question when it comes to Christianity.
Is the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John…any one of the four…a reliable account of actual events…? Because if any one of these four is an actual account or reliable account of actual events, then what they say about Jesus is true. And if what they say about Jesus is true, then game on…! Press on and lean in.
Investigate it. Kick the tires. Ask the hard questions. It rises and falls on the identity of a single individual ~ Jesus.
Because really the only good reason to not follow Jesus is that you’ve decided that Luke (for example) isn't trustworthy. Have you decided that many people did not endeavor to tell and record the story of Jesus, that he did not carefully investigate everything, that he did not talk to the eyewitnesses, that he did not actually know Peter, and that he did not actually know James (the brother of Jesus), and that he did not carefully investigate everything from the beginning…?
But if you read the Gospel of Luke (for example) and you read the Book of Acts, you may be convinced ~ you may be convinced of this: That 2000 years ago, something extraordinary did happen. Something extraordinary for you, and for your family, and for ALL of us.
Christians didn't kill Christ, God the Father willingly sent him to die on a cross because of his love for us.
Please explain how sending your only son to his death is a sign of love?
Dude, you're using up my bandwidth. I'll give you the verse again...
John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And this, Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates his own LOVE for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Why the need for the blood, torture, and human sacrifice?
If He's God he could skip all of that a move straight to Grace.
So the most innocent one could suffer the ultimate pain and disgrace so that HIS suffering and blood could atone for your sins and shortcomings. There was a price to be paid for your salvation to be avaliable, whether you reject it or not.
HE suffered and died knowing many would not appreciate His greatest efforts in order to give them the greatest gift of all. HIS blood was so clean it could wash away your most evil transgressions if you only asked.
Should he have given HIS blood to any for free? HIS cleansing blood was the most precious in the world and HE only asked you a pittance for it.
It wasn't nearly as much suffering for Jesus as it would be for a normal person. He had full knowledge that it wasn't really the end for him and that he was merely passing from one place to another. In the new place he would be worshipped, respected for evermore. Sure, there was some temporary pain, but he knew he would transcend all that.
Completely wrong. Jesus suffered even more than anyone realizes. God left him while he was suffering on the cross. At his worst moment he had no comfort, no assurance, because God had forsaken him completely. According to Jewish writers of that period, Jesus was beaten to the point where it was impossible to tell if there was even a human hanging on the cross. At his worst moment, he did not have the comfort of knowing he was rising again.His God, his father, and all hope had left him.
In many ways, knowing that you were going to become the most famous person on earth ever to have existed but have to suffer some pain for several days, would be better than just living for years as a vegetable in an old person's care facility and never being anything or anyone. And then there's the years of pain that some of these victims of child sex abuse by priests suffer (that God has allowed to happen), before it gets too much for them with some committing suicide...I'd much rather go through a crucifixion as Jesus and suffer for just a few days.
God is not letting it happen as you say. God is not sitting in Heaven micromanaging the earth. God has given the earth to man for a time period. Man is letting all those evils happen while God pleads with him not to. When the time of man is over God will again take ownership and rid the world of that evil you say he is now allowing.
Ever since God gave the earth to Adam God has needed to use a man to accomplish anything he wanted done. God had to use all the saints and prophets to speak and accomplish his will in the earth. Go back and read the scriptures with this knowledge and you can see how God did nothing without a man.
In many ways, knowing that you were going to become the most famous person on earth ever to have existed but have to suffer some pain for several days, would be better than just living for years as a vegetable in an old person's care facility and never being anything or anyone. And then there's the years of pain that some of these victims of child sex abuse by priests suffer (that God has allowed to happen), before it gets too much for them with some committing suicide...I'd much rather go through a crucifixion as Jesus and suffer for just a few days.
Why do people blame God for their evil rather than taking personal responsibility?
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Get the Christians to follow the morals first....then see who follows.
Im not talking about "christian" humans. Im talking of the teachings. Being a moral person isnt a bad thing, whether one believe in God or no. Society would be MUCH better off
One shouldn't need be Christian to know that murder bad, buggering kids bad, etc etc.
One thing is an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, we are all going to find out in the end. Some of us sooner than others.
I know there are angles and nobody can convince me otherwise, and since there are angles, there is God.
AMEN!
That seems like a pretty obtuse answer.
How do angles prove God?
Can you measure him with a protractor?
I believe and have faith, that one can not exist without the other.
I am not a bible thumper, I have no desire to convince anybody of anything.
Faith is a personal decision, you either have it or you do not. I grew up in a household of atheists, my remaining family members are still atheists, and I have no issues with that.
Bee,
An angle is a figure formed by two straight lines or rays that meet at a common endpoint. Hence the reason your answer was obtuse....
I was not wearing my reading glasses missed the typo and didn't notice!
Christians are supposed to tell non believers about God's saving grace. I've yet to understand why this upsets some people so much. Listen, believe it, don't believe it, ignore it, make fun of those who profess the truth, whatever. Just understand that is what we are tasked with doing. It isn't meant to offend or insult unbelievers, it is simply our job.
And when some commie climate twit preaches at you you will be fine with that, what about sitting there listening to biden or the gay brigade.
Same thing sport...it is intrusive and fucking annoying having some control freak telling me how to think.
At that point, I am commanded to dust off my feet and move on. Your blood will not be on my hands.
Typical Christian evangelist, ending with a passive-aggressive threat.
There is no threat. I was only answering his question and trying to explain my position.
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
Careful my friend, this is what God says about people that make light of his Son dying for us and count it as nothing. "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us." Hebrews 10:29
I have met two types of people who believe in god The first group believes in god due to fear. They are always predicting about non believers going to hell for eternity. Saying you believe just because you want to go to heaven isn’t believing. Group two are the ones who have to quote scriptures from the Bible because they don’t have the ability to formulate an opinion of their own.
Living in the Bible Belt in Tennessee has taught me how unkind most people are in the name of god. You either attend their particular church or they thumb their nose at you. Doesn’t matter if the church is the same denomination or not.
Parts of me admire people who have blind faith in god. The way my brain is wired I will remain a non believer until a sign from god convinces me to do otherwise. I will not fake a belief.
I have met two types of people who believe in god The first group believes in god due to fear. They are always predicting about non believers going to hell for eternity. Saying you believe just because you want to go to heaven isn’t believing. Group two are the ones who have to quote scriptures from the Bible because they don’t have the ability to formulate an opinion of their own.
Living in the Bible Belt in Tennessee has taught me how unkind most people are in the name of god. You either attend their particular church or they thumb their nose at you. Doesn’t matter if the church is the same denomination or not.
Parts of me admire people who have blind faith in god. The way my brain is wired I will remain a non believer until a sign from god convinces me to do otherwise. I will not fake a belief.
Rather than looking for a sign, you may not even recognize when it comes, why not just read the scriptures for yourself and formulate your own opinion? Regardless of the flaws of human nature that twist scripture to its own purposes, it seems to me arrogant to dismiss what millions of people have held sacred for thousands of years to seek your own proof on your own terms.
I have met two types of people who believe in god The first group believes in god due to fear. They are always predicting about non believers going to hell for eternity. Saying you believe just because you want to go to heaven isn’t believing. Group two are the ones who have to quote scriptures from the Bible because they don’t have the ability to formulate an opinion of their own.
Living in the Bible Belt in Tennessee has taught me how unkind most people are in the name of god. You either attend their particular church or they thumb their nose at you. Doesn’t matter if the church is the same denomination or not.
Parts of me admire people who have blind faith in god. The way my brain is wired I will remain a non believer until a sign from god convinces me to do otherwise. I will not fake a belief.
Unfortunately, or fortunately, I was born and raised in the Bible Belt about an hour and a half north of you. I gots stories!
Those two views are definitely predominant in that region and less so but still a strong influence in other regions that I’ve lived in.
I agree with the first type that you defined. The second type is accurate but I think that its origin can be better defined.
I believe the strongest influences on the second group to be the isolation of the Scot Irish on the early frontier, the need to survive having a higher priority than education and the plague of circuit riding preachers that preached a brutal moralism. Those influences are still strong in that region and regions to where those (my) folk moved and they mold and shape people but not always in good ways.
Those influences and mentalities impacted me in a very negative way. However, I didn’t move away from faith although my faith was deeply challenged. Rather, those influences pushed me to understand the factors that had formed me so that I could look to see if there was truth.
Those are not the only representations of Christianity and Christian’s though. There is another but I’d like to think of how to define it in with proper context.
Quote "It wasn't nearly as much suffering for Jesus as it would be for a normal person. He had full knowledge that it wasn't really the end for him and that he was merely passing from one place to another. In the new place he would be worshipped, respected for evermore. Sure, there was some temporary pain, but he knew he would transcend all that."
Jesus knew exactly what He was going to go through, thats why the night before his crucifixion we get these accounts, Matthew 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” and Luke 22:44 And being in agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground. He was not just going to die a physical death, He was going to have ALL the sin of the world be put upon Him, because only He could pay the price from times before to all time after and all this while being separated from the Father... Also let's not forget that he was beaten beyond measure before all this happened, this is Isaiah's description 52:14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him[c]— his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness—and 53:2-5 He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. 4 Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
"Objective truth refers to information or statements that correspond to reality independent of individual perspectives, emotions, or biases. It remains constant regardless of who observes or interprets it. The concept finds its roots in logic and empirical evidence, emphasizing the necessity of verifiable and repeatable facts.
Objective truth doesn’t waver based on personal opinions or cultural norms; rather, it remains steadfast and unchanging."
as i said 2 + 2 = 4. if you have 2 apples and you add another 2 apples, how many apples do you have? 4
hold a ball at shoulder length, turn your hand over and let the ball go. what happens? the ball falls down to the floor.
each of these cases always come to the truth. now if you were outside in space and turn your hand over and let the ball go, it will probably stay there. why? you changed locations. on Earth, the ball will fall. in space, the ball will stay there.
if you are in space and you have 2 apples and then you add another 2 apples, you have 4 apples.
Objective truth emanates from something beyond humanity. Such things are by their nature eternal. An absolute if you will. This points to intelligent design and the only one that can be is God. As for believing it is an article of faith.
Buuuuullshìt.
Let’s hear your contra argument then. If objective truth is not man made then it is made by something else is it not?
In the end each of us will have the ultimate question answered.
2 rocks plus 2 rocks is 4 rocks. No one "made" it so, it just is.
Zeus, no Zeus, Quetzalcóatl, no Quetzalcóatl, Man, no man, makes no difference, it just is.
So, existence? And what is the causal agent of existence?
Agent is a loaded word. Why is there existance vs non existance? We don't know.
It is not a loaded term in the least. When you shoot your deer in the fall you are the causal agent of its death. There is in fact a causal agent to existence. You claimed above 2+2=4 because it just is to which I challenged you to elaborate and explain your claim. The nonsensical answer you provided doesn’t do that so try again. There is a causal agent to the everything both man made things and non-manmade things.
Just some rambling thoughts from the back of the room......
This is no more or no less complicated than the basic struggle between good and evil. God is good, Satan is evil, end of story. And the influences of either are easily seen by anyone with even half a lick of sense. Why anyone would live their lives with an adamant rejection of good is just beyond me.
We spend our lives mistreating ourselves, each other, this planet and all that's in it, and we mistreat our Creator. Not one of us deserves God's grace, yet, with a simple sincere plea for forgiveness, He gives it.
It's a little late to continue to be torn up about the first coming of Christ. Mankind has been given many second chances, and have royally screwed it up each and every time.
The real concern should be the second coming of Christ, because as promised, when that happens, God will take His believers home in one fell swoop, the non-believers will be left to Satan, and this world will cease to exist. Like it or not, since Jesus died on that cross, we are currently living through our one last chance.
I have met two types of people who believe in god The first group believes in god due to fear. They are always predicting about non believers going to hell for eternity. Saying you believe just because you want to go to heaven isn’t believing. Group two are the ones who have to quote scriptures from the Bible because they don’t have the ability to formulate an opinion of their own.
Living in the Bible Belt in Tennessee has taught me how unkind most people are in the name of god. You either attend their particular church or they thumb their nose at you. Doesn’t matter if the church is the same denomination or not.
Parts of me admire people who have blind faith in god. The way my brain is wired I will remain a non believer until a sign from god convinces me to do otherwise. I will not fake a belief.
Hold on there big guy, let me say I use bible verses because first they are the word of God and I don't want to misquote Him and second if I give you my opinion you will just say " well that's your opinion". I can give you my opinion all day long and it doesn't mean squat because I don't make the rules but if I give you the word of God then your argument is with Him not me, and He's a big boy so go ahead and ask, complain, or protest, many have in the bible.
And yes you are right about believers fearing God because He warns us to. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" also "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
With that being said God is good, kind, patient, and righteous also saying in Romans 2:4 "Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?"
On your last note, yes Christians including myself can be azzholes but that's part of the human condition and I really do try my best. And you were right not to try and fake anything because God will call those people out on the last day.
Parts of me admire people who have blind faith in god. The way my brain is wired I will remain a non believer until a sign from god convinces me to do otherwise. I will not fake a belief.
You missed the most common type of believer, of which the Fire has many, like those who believe and rarely if ever say anything to give you a clue and never quote any scripture and do so as to not make waves. They'd just as soon you go to hell in peace or don't want to ruffle feathers, I suppose. Ha, many fear upsetting someone or making an enemy and turning someone who doesn't believe against GOD. Ha, they don't want to turn someone against GOD who is going to hell. GOD said your blood will be on their hands. HE said those who acknowledge JESUS CHRIST will be so done in return in front of The Father.
The signs from Heaven are all around you. None are so blind as those who would not see.
Dogs and donkeys and shrimp and the heathen contemplate them not.
Your very life is a blessing from GOD, yet you contemplate that not.
HE said, Let there be light, and the spark of life occurred which your gods can not create.
The spark of light that occurs when a spermatozoa penetrates a human egg.
Christians are supposed to tell non believers about God's saving grace. I've yet to understand why this upsets some people so much. Listen, believe it, don't believe it, ignore it, make fun of those who profess the truth, whatever. Just understand that is what we are tasked with doing. It isn't meant to offend or insult unbelievers, it is simply our job.
And when some commie climate twit preaches at you you will be fine with that, what about sitting there listening to biden or the gay brigade.
Same thing sport...it is intrusive and fucking annoying having some control freak telling me how to think.
At that point, I am commanded to dust off my feet and move on. Your blood will not be on my hands.
question?? Why defend your position? Just an observation but appears that you have a savior complex and your coming across as holier than thou. Why?
Christians are supposed to tell non believers about God's saving grace. I've yet to understand why this upsets some people so much. Listen, believe it, don't believe it, ignore it, make fun of those who profess the truth, whatever. Just understand that is what we are tasked with doing. It isn't meant to offend or insult unbelievers, it is simply our job.
And when some commie climate twit preaches at you you will be fine with that, what about sitting there listening to biden or the gay brigade.
Same thing sport...it is intrusive and fucking annoying having some control freak telling me how to think.
At that point, I am commanded to dust off my feet and move on. Your blood will not be on my hands.
question?? Why defend your position? Just an observation but appears that you have a savior complex and your coming across as holier than thou. Why?
That wasn't my intention at all. I do appreciate your observation. I've always struggled with conveying my thoughts and beliefs in a way that didn't piss people off. I'm still working on it. Got any advice to that end?
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
The very definition of taking the Lord's name in vain.
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
Careful my friend, this is what God says about people that make light of his Son dying for us and count it as nothing. "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us." Hebrews 10:29
Yeah, If there was a chance in Hell of the God of the Bible actually existing I might be worried.
In many ways, knowing that you were going to become the most famous person on earth ever to have existed but have to suffer some pain for several days, would be better than just living for years as a vegetable in an old person's care facility and never being anything or anyone. And then there's the years of pain that some of these victims of child sex abuse by priests suffer (that God has allowed to happen), before it gets too much for them with some committing suicide...I'd much rather go through a crucifixion as Jesus and suffer for just a few days.
God is not letting it happen as you say. God is not sitting in Heaven micromanaging the earth. God has given the earth to man for a time period. Man is letting all those evils happen while God pleads with him not to. When the time of man is over God will again take ownership and rid the world of that evil you say he is now allowing.
Ever since God gave the earth to Adam God has needed to use a man to accomplish anything he wanted done. God had to use all the saints and prophets to speak and accomplish his will in the earth. Go back and read the scriptures with this knowledge and you can see how God did nothing without a man.
So God is not micromanaging earth and has given the earth to man for a time period...therefore he doesn't intervene and stop the priests sexually abusing children who go to church to learn about God and to be good Christians. Yet, there are plenty of examples of where God does intervene, such as where a tribe of people worship some other "idol" in which case he states such when known quotes as "I will execute great vengeance upon thee, rebuking them in my fury, and they shall know that I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon them". Why is he so selective about "intervening", unless sexually abused children by priests don't matter but someone else not worshiping Him does matter?
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
Careful my friend, this is what God says about people that make light of his Son dying for us and count it as nothing. "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us." Hebrews 10:29
Another threat by God...behavior that isn't tolerated in a modern world, but it's ok for God to do it.
Parts of me admire people who have blind faith in god. The way my brain is wired I will remain a non believer until a sign from god convinces me to do otherwise. I will not fake a belief.
You missed the most common type of believer, of which the Fire has many, like those who believe and rarely if ever say anything to give you a clue and never quote any scripture and do so as to not make waves. They'd just as soon you go to hell in peace or don't want to ruffle feathers, I suppose. Ha, many fear upsetting someone or making an enemy and turning someone who doesn't believe against GOD. Ha, they don't want to turn someone against GOD who is going to hell. GOD said your blood will be on their hands. HE said those who acknowledge JESUS CHRIST will be so done in return in front of The Father.
The signs from Heaven are all around you. None are so blind as those who would not see.
Dogs and donkeys and shrimp and the heathen contemplate them not.
Your very life is a blessing from GOD, yet you contemplate that not.
HE said, Let there be light, and the spark of life occurred which your gods can not create.
The spark of light that occurs when a spermatozoa penetrates a human egg.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Christians are supposed to tell non believers about God's saving grace. I've yet to understand why this upsets some people so much. Listen, believe it, don't believe it, ignore it, make fun of those who profess the truth, whatever. Just understand that is what we are tasked with doing. It isn't meant to offend or insult unbelievers, it is simply our job.
And when some commie climate twit preaches at you you will be fine with that, what about sitting there listening to biden or the gay brigade.
Same thing sport...it is intrusive and fucking annoying having some control freak telling me how to think.
At that point, I am commanded to dust off my feet and move on. Your blood will not be on my hands.
question?? Why defend your position? Just an observation but appears that you have a savior complex and your coming across as holier than thou. Why?
That wasn't my intention at all. I do appreciate your observation. I've always struggled with conveying my thoughts and beliefs in a way that didn't piss people off. I'm still working on it. Got any advice to that end?
no I really don't, I fall short in my walk all the time, I think the best thing I can do is lead by example I should clarify, my observation after reading all these posts is not just you but a lot of the ones that call themselves Christians have a savior complex, holier than thou and want to past Judgement on to those of us that don't necessarily agree with your ideology, if God is who you believe and say he is let him do the convicting, saving and judging. Maybe we mortals can lead by example.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
The answers to all your questions are in there.
The example of God intervening when a tribe of people worship a false idol is from the Bible and is an example of comprehending it. The example of God not intervening when priests sexually abuse children is a glaring omission from the Bible. So that constitutes full comprehension of the Bible....but it doesn't explain why some of you defenders of God's poor behavior don't call him out and show some courage.
Why would a righteous god be silent knowing he can stop priests (or anyone else) from molesting children but chooses to just sit on the side lines and watch? Same goes for cancer in children.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
The answers to all your questions are in there.
The example of God intervening when a tribe of people worship a false idol is from the Bible and is an example of comprehending it. The example of God not intervening when priests sexually abuse children is a glaring omission from the Bible. So that constitutes full comprehension of the Bible....but it doesn't explain why some of you defenders of God's poor behavior don't call him out and show some courage.
Riflehumter seriously check out Jason Bershears. His tireless work and effort he has put forth on the biblical chronology, his cross referencing with multiple sources of ancient texts will enlighten you.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
The answers to all your questions are in there.
The example of God intervening when a tribe of people worship a false idol is from the Bible and is an example of comprehending it. The example of God not intervening when priests sexually abuse children is a glaring omission from the Bible. So that constitutes full comprehension of the Bible....but it doesn't explain why some of you defenders of God's poor behavior don't call him out and show some courage.
Because we are taught to be obedient and surrender to something greater than us. It's a hard thing to do when one thinks they are greater themselves.
I've said here earlier, hard to seek the face of God when you think you are a God. That is the sin that Adam committed. The devil convinced him that eating the fruit would enable him (Adam) to be "as" God.
Jesus was the second Adam, As God's direct son, through a birth, his blood is the final blood to be sacrificed. Animal blood sacrifice was old testament.
I can somewhat relate to your thought of "calling God out". My sister lost her daughter when she was 10. That is now 15 years ago.
In her words, not mine................"I am pissed at God, and He will have some questions I will need answered when I get to heaven. My job is to live a life to get to heaven to ask those questions"
Unfortunately, we all too often forget there is a devil (The world) that is here everyday to convince us "we are just like God" ---------------- The Original sin.
At the end of the day, surrender and obedience are tough words in a world that advertises "have it your way" - "you DESERVE a break today" - "you only live once" kind of crap.
I'm not expecting anyone to understand my thought process, but I will absolutely testify that joy has come to me by being obedient to the word and surrendering to the unforced rhythms of the Holy Spirit.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
The answers to all your questions are in there.
The example of God intervening when a tribe of people worship a false idol is from the Bible and is an example of comprehending it. The example of God not intervening when priests sexually abuse children is a glaring omission from the Bible. So that constitutes full comprehension of the Bible....but it doesn't explain why some of you defenders of God's poor behavior don't call him out and show some courage.
Start with Luke 12:13, and keep reading......
Maybe God has done something about it. It's just that those He's sent here to fix things like that are too busy not believing and bitching about it on an internet forum.
You're the one enlightened enough to declare God doesn't exist. Surely you're intelligent enough to deal with a few ass hole priests.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
The answers to all your questions are in there.
The example of God intervening when a tribe of people worship a false idol is from the Bible and is an example of comprehending it. The example of God not intervening when priests sexually abuse children is a glaring omission from the Bible. So that constitutes full comprehension of the Bible....but it doesn't explain why some of you defenders of God's poor behavior don't call him out and show some courage.
Because we are taught to be obedient and surrender to something greater than us. It's a hard thing to do when one thinks they are greater themselves.
I've said here earlier, hard to seek the face of God when you think you are a God. That is the sin that Adam committed. The devil convinced him that eating the fruit would enable him (Adam) to be "as" God.
Jesus was the second Adam, As God's direct son, through a birth, his blood is the final blood to be sacrificed. Animal blood sacrifice was old testament.
I can somewhat relate to your thought of "calling God out". My sister lost her daughter when she was 10. That is now 15 years ago.
In her words, not mine................"I am pissed at God, and He will have some questions I will need answered when I get to heaven. My job is to live a life to get to heaven to ask those questions"
Unfortunately, we all too often forget there is a devil (The world) that is here everyday to convince us "we are just like God" ---------------- The Original sin.
At the end of the day, surrender and obedience are tough words in a world that advertises "have it your way" - "you DESERVE a break today" - "you only live once" kind of crap.
I'm not expecting anyone to understand my thought process, but I will absolutely testify that joy has come to me by being obedient to the word and surrendering to the unforced rhythms of the Holy Spirit.
Pain and suffering and injustice in the world are not arguments against the existence of God. They’re just arguments against the existence of a God who doesn’t allow pain and suffering and injustice in the world.
And Christianity has never made an argument for God’s existence or involvement based on a world where bad things never happen to good people or innocent children. Christianity has never espoused a God who doesn’t allow bad things to happen to good people or innocent children.
Christianity is actually founded upon the fact that the worst possible thing happened to the best possible person.
Pain and suffering and injustice in the world are not arguments against the existence of God. They’re just arguments against the existence of a God who doesn’t allow pain and suffering and injustice in the world.
And Christianity has never made an argument for God’s existence or involvement based on a world where bad things never happen to good people or innocent children. Christianity has never espoused a God who doesn’t allow bad things to happen to good people or innocent children.
Christianity is actually founded upon the fact that the worst possible thing happened to the best possible person.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
The answers to all your questions are in there.
The example of God intervening when a tribe of people worship a false idol is from the Bible and is an example of comprehending it. The example of God not intervening when priests sexually abuse children is a glaring omission from the Bible. So that constitutes full comprehension of the Bible....but it doesn't explain why some of you defenders of God's poor behavior don't call him out and show some courage.
Because we are taught to be obedient and surrender to something greater than us. It's a hard thing to do when one thinks they are greater themselves.
I've said here earlier, hard to seek the face of God when you think you are a God. That is the sin that Adam committed. The devil convinced him that eating the fruit would enable him (Adam) to be "as" God.
Jesus was the second Adam, As God's direct son, through a birth, his blood is the final blood to be sacrificed. Animal blood sacrifice was old testament.
I can somewhat relate to your thought of "calling God out". My sister lost her daughter when she was 10. That is now 15 years ago.
In her words, not mine................"I am pissed at God, and He will have some questions I will need answered when I get to heaven. My job is to live a life to get to heaven to ask those questions"
Unfortunately, we all too often forget there is a devil (The world) that is here everyday to convince us "we are just like God" ---------------- The Original sin.
At the end of the day, surrender and obedience are tough words in a world that advertises "have it your way" - "you DESERVE a break today" - "you only live once" kind of crap.
I'm not expecting anyone to understand my thought process, but I will absolutely testify that joy has come to me by being obedient to the word and surrendering to the unforced rhythms of the Holy Spirit.
Many people equate God with Christ in some version of Christianity they worship. Omnipotent Almighty might agree or feel slighted. Or not even notice or care. Lots of other religions out there certainly get offended at such self serving acclimation.
Pain and suffering and injustice in the world are not arguments against the existence of God. They’re just arguments against the existence of a God who doesn’t allow pain and suffering and injustice in the world.
And Christianity has never made an argument for God’s existence or involvement based on a world where bad things never happen to good people or innocent children. Christianity has never espoused a God who doesn’t allow bad things to happen to good people or innocent children.
Christianity is actually founded upon the fact that the worst possible thing happened to the best possible person.
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
Careful my friend, this is what God says about people that make light of his Son dying for us and count it as nothing. "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us." Hebrews 10:29
Yeah, If there was a chance in Hell of the God of the Bible actually existing I might be worried.
Placing a large bet. "So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:49-50
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
Careful my friend, this is what God says about people that make light of his Son dying for us and count it as nothing. "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us." Hebrews 10:29
Another threat by God...behavior that isn't tolerated in a modern world, but it's ok for God to do it.
Christianity is actually founded upon the fact that the worst possible thing happened to the best possible person.
Kind of takes the wind out of peoples sails to live a good life.
Unless you are able to also embrace the fact that He willingly did that for you, and for me, and for ALL of us.
He created something brand new ~ a totally different way of approaching life. Within the context of a brand New Covenant that says "Your sin is paid for, now live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you." A personal relationship with your Creator. No need for ANY mediators.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Job tried that... Besides God says, 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 58:8-9
Christianity is actually founded upon the fact that the worst possible thing happened to the best possible person.
Kind of takes the wind out of peoples sails to live a good life.
Unless you understand that the after life is the goal, and passing through this evil world is just a step towards getting there......
Reminds me of an old saying "Life here on earth will be the only heaven unbelievers will ever experience and life here on earth will be the only hell believers will ever experience"
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Job tried that... Besides God says, 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 58:8-9
IF a sociopath on trial for the killing of 10 persons were to use the defense: "my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways" I doubt if that would constitute a valid defense. And effectively saying that as Heaven is higher than earth, therefore my crimes and lack of action are ok, doesn't sit right with me. Hypothetically, when I go to Heaven, if I were to somehow start raping all the angels in Heaven, then that would be fine as I was in Heaven, and whatever happens in Heaven is ok because the Heavens are higher than the earth. It's also saying that sins or amoral actions in Heaven are fine...yet we tend to think of Heaven as not being crime riddled but free from sin and free from crime.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
This is an interesting question. For exploration, please post the documented list of disgusting behaviors by God, and the instances where God was required to intervene and did not. Thank you.
Also, it is nobler in God’s sight to believe without needing a miracle. Jesus visited the Samaritans, and “because of his words many more became believers” (John 4:41, emphasis added). Just a few verses later, Jesus rebukes the Galileans: “Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders . . . you will never believe” (John 4:48). Unlike the Samaritans, the people of Galilee required signs and wonders.
2. Some people seek after signs and wonders because they do not believe the signs and wonders which have already been performed. The Pharisees of Matthew 12 were just such a lot. Jesus had been performing miracles for quite some time when a group of scribes and Pharisees came to Him with an insolent demand to see another sign. In response, Jesus condemned them as “wicked and adulterous” (Matthew 12:38-39).
They were “wicked” in that they refused to believe the signs and wonders Christ had already performed. “In spite of his wonders, they did not believe” (Psalm 78:32). Their hearts were hardened towards the truth, even after numerous public miracles. Nothing would make them believe; their hearts were as pharaoh’s, hardened after witnessing so many of Moses’ miracles in Egypt (Exodus 9:34-35).
They were “adulterous” in the spiritual sense, having left the true worship of God to follow a man-made set of rules and traditions. Not satisfied with the miracles Jesus was doing, they demanded something even greater. As commentator Matthew Barnes puts it, “They looked for signs of their own devising.” So entrenched was their rejection of Christ that, when later presented with the “sign of the prophet Jonah” (Christ’s resurrection, Matthew 12:39-40), they still would not believe.
3. Some people seek after signs and wonders because they seek an occasion to excuse their unbelief. There were people in Jesus’ day who “tested” Him by seeking a sign (Matthew 16:1; Luke 11:16). Since they
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
The answers to all your questions are in there.
Do you believe everything you read?
GOD gives the gift of Discernment to many of HIS. Unbelievers, not so much.
To those who have much (like faith, more is given.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
This is an interesting question. For exploration, please post the documented list of disgusting behaviors by God, and the instances where God was required to intervene and did not. Thank you.
Well, I just gave two examples, perhaps you can start answering those instead of arrogantly asking me to prepare a long list.
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
Careful my friend, this is what God says about people that make light of his Son dying for us and count it as nothing. "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us." Hebrews 10:29
Another threat by God...behavior that isn't tolerated in a modern world, but it's ok for God to do it.
Every culture throughout history has been a "modern world" in its own time - such modernity always in flux. Is it your position that humans should be able to tell God how to behave in conformity to the then current condition of humanity?
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Job tried that... Besides God says, 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 58:8-9
IF a sociopath on trial for the killing of 10 persons were to use the defense: "my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways" I doubt if that would constitute a valid defense. And effectively saying that as Heaven is higher than earth, therefore my crimes and lack of action are ok, doesn't sit right with me. Hypothetically, when I go to Heaven, if I were to somehow start raping all the angels in Heaven, then that would be fine as I was in Heaven, and whatever happens in Heaven is ok because the Heavens are higher than the earth.
I'm sorry I can't give you the answers you want, all I can do is tell you what God says in His word, which I take on faith to be The truth. I think I said earlier that you can go to God with honest and sincere questions. Many have, you might be surprised.
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
Careful my friend, this is what God says about people that make light of his Son dying for us and count it as nothing. "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us." Hebrews 10:29
Yeah, If there was a chance in Hell of the God of the Bible actually existing I might be worried.
HE loves you and gave His only begotten son for you. HE blessed you with life. HE gave you the Word and the Word is JESUS.
HE loves you enough that HE wants you to enjoy a short life on earth that HE may bless mightily with riches untold, as HE Blesses many who are lost. Why would HE want you to live life on earth in misery from worry. If you chose the ways of the flesh instead of the ways of the Everlasting Spirit it's your mistake, not HIS.
There is a reason JESUS weeps. He weeps for you. "My people perish for lack of knowledge."
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
This is an interesting question. For exploration, please post the documented list of disgusting behaviors by God, and the instances where God was required to intervene and did not. Thank you.
Well, I just gave two examples, perhaps you can start answering those instead of arrogantly asking me to prepare a long list.
I did not ask for a long list, but rather asked you to document God's disgusting behaviors in a list - even one example is a listing. I don't see a single such example in the above post. If you identified even one documented disgusting behavior, please re-post it. Same request for a required intervention that was not conducted. Thanks.
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
Careful my friend, this is what God says about people that make light of his Son dying for us and count it as nothing. "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us." Hebrews 10:29
Another threat by God...behavior that isn't tolerated in a modern world, but it's ok for God to do it.
Every culture throughout history has been a "modern world" in its own time - such modernity always in flux. Is it your position that humans should be able to tell God how to behave in conformity to the then current condition of humanity?
There's a subtle difference between telling God how to behave, and calling him out for intervening and executing with great vengeance a community should a tribe of people worship a false idol (that is, something that is not God) and then failing to take action when priests habitually sexually molest young innocent children who are attempting to worship God.
Someone asked, if GOD loved us so much, why didn't HE send JESUS CHRIST to Hell? HE did.
GOD meant us to be sinless and to live forever in the Garden of Eden eating grapes and multiplying. Satan beguiled Eve and Adam and sin entered into man. Man became of the weakness of flesh through sin which begats death to all.
After death from Crucifixion JESUS CHRIST spent 3 days in Hell and retrieved the keys to everlasting life from Lucifer. HE did that so those born of man in the flesh could still, after death of their flesh, still have GODS gift of the everlasting spirit HE had imparted into them by creating men in HIS Image.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
This is an interesting question. For exploration, please post the documented list of disgusting behaviors by God, and the instances where God was required to intervene and did not. Thank you.
Well, I just gave two examples, perhaps you can start answering those instead of arrogantly asking me to prepare a long list.
I did not ask for a long list, but rather asked you to document God's disgusting behaviors in a list - even one example is a listing. I don't see a single such example in the above post. If you identified even one documented disgusting behavior, please re-post it. Same request for a required intervention that was not conducted. Thanks.
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
Careful my friend, this is what God says about people that make light of his Son dying for us and count it as nothing. "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us." Hebrews 10:29
Another threat by God...behavior that isn't tolerated in a modern world, but it's ok for God to do it.
Every culture throughout history has been a "modern world" in its own time - such modernity always in flux. Is it your position that humans should be able to tell God how to behave in conformity to the then current condition of humanity?
There's a subtle difference between telling God how to behave, and calling him out for intervening and executing with great vengeance a community should a tribe of people worship a false idol (that is, something that is not God) and then failing to take action when priests habitually sexually molest young innocent children who are attempting to worship God.
Is it just he priest you are mad about? Of is it all molesters?
Parts of me admire people who have blind faith in god. The way my brain is wired I will remain a non believer until a sign from god convinces me to do otherwise. I will not fake a belief.
You missed the most common type of believer, of which the Fire has many, like those who believe and rarely if ever say anything to give you a clue and never quote any scripture and do so as to not make waves. They'd just as soon you go to hell in peace or don't want to ruffle feathers, I suppose. Ha, many fear upsetting someone or making an enemy and turning someone who doesn't believe against GOD. Ha, they don't want to turn someone against GOD who is going to hell. GOD said your blood will be on their hands. HE said those who acknowledge JESUS CHRIST will be so done in return in front of The Father.
The signs from Heaven are all around you. None are so blind as those who would not see.
Dogs and donkeys and shrimp and the heathen contemplate them not.
Your very life is a blessing from GOD, yet you contemplate that not.
HE said, Let there be light, and the spark of life occurred which your gods can not create.
The spark of light that occurs when a spermatozoa penetrates a human egg.
I fail to see how your not understanding light is proof of God.
Sorry, HE nor I ever meant for you to have tangible proof. If HE gave proof even the evil would see and ask and end up in Heaven, like they do on the Fire.
I gave what I and others see. I presented what HE gave us to see. I see HIM there and the truth of HIS words are enough proof for me to have faith and believe.
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
Careful my friend, this is what God says about people that make light of his Son dying for us and count it as nothing. "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us." Hebrews 10:29
Another threat by God...behavior that isn't tolerated in a modern world, but it's ok for God to do it.
Every culture throughout history has been a "modern world" in its own time - such modernity always in flux. Is it your position that humans should be able to tell God how to behave in conformity to the then current condition of humanity?
There's a subtle difference between telling God how to behave, and calling him out for intervening and executing with great vengeance a community should a tribe of people worship a false idol (that is, something that is not God) and then failing to take action when priests habitually sexually molest young innocent children who are attempting to worship God.
Is it just he priest you are mad about? Of is it all molesters?
Why I mention the priest molesters is because the little innocent children are doing their utmost at the time they are molested to worship, praise and learn about God. Yet God "rewards" them (and their parents who sent them to church) by allowing them to be molested. All molesters are scum in answer to your question.
I keep hearing Jesus died for our sins. But, then he came back to life just a few days later. So wouldn’t it be more accurate to say, Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins?
Careful my friend, this is what God says about people that make light of his Son dying for us and count it as nothing. "Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us." Hebrews 10:29
Another threat by God...behavior that isn't tolerated in a modern world, but it's ok for God to do it.
Every culture throughout history has been a "modern world" in its own time - such modernity always in flux. Is it your position that humans should be able to tell God how to behave in conformity to the then current condition of humanity?
There's a subtle difference between telling God how to behave, and calling him out for intervening and executing with great vengeance a community should a tribe of people worship a false idol (that is, something that is not God) and then failing to take action when priests habitually sexually molest young innocent children who are attempting to worship God.
You may be experiencing some subtlety, but you did not answer the question directly derived from your former post.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
This is an interesting question. For exploration, please post the documented list of disgusting behaviors by God, and the instances where God was required to intervene and did not. Thank you.
Well, I just gave two examples, perhaps you can start answering those instead of arrogantly asking me to prepare a long list.
I did not ask for a long list, but rather asked you to document God's disgusting behaviors in a list - even one example is a listing. I don't see a single such example in the above post. If you identified even one documented disgusting behavior, please re-post it. Same request for a required intervention that was not conducted. Thanks.
See my above post.
This is your "above post'': "Another threat by God...behavior that isn't tolerated in a modern world, but it's ok for God to do it." So - it is your position that a threat by God is disgusting behavior. Is that because you think that threats are not tolerated in your modern world? Or are you dodging the request to document what you label as God's "disgusting behaviors"?
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
This is an interesting question. For exploration, please post the documented list of disgusting behaviors by God, and the instances where God was required to intervene and did not. Thank you.
Well, I just gave two examples, perhaps you can start answering those instead of arrogantly asking me to prepare a long list.
I did not ask for a long list, but rather asked you to document God's disgusting behaviors in a list - even one example is a listing. I don't see a single such example in the above post. If you identified even one documented disgusting behavior, please re-post it. Same request for a required intervention that was not conducted. Thanks.
See my above post.
This is your "above post'': "Another threat by God...behavior that isn't tolerated in a modern world, but it's ok for God to do it." So - it is your position that a threat by God is disgusting behavior. Is that because you think that threats are not tolerated in your modern world? Or are you dodging the request to document what you label as God's "disgusting behaviors"?
My above post states: There's a subtle difference between telling God how to behave, and calling him out for intervening and executing with great vengeance a community should a tribe of people worship a false idol (that is, something that is not God) and then failing to take action when priests habitually sexually molest young innocent children who are attempting to worship God.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
God gave free will. You are free to believe of not believe.
Again, surrender and be obedient.
Your a thinker, you know this. We see this. If you don't believe, than you should not care of what a God, that you don't believe in will do or not do. The fact that you continue to find "reasons" to not believe, shows, at some unknown level to you, but known to us believers, that the Holy Spirit is speaking to you. The question is, will you surrender and seek, or seek to prove your already made up human mind. You spirit mind, is still on the fence.
I choose to believe, so I care about my souls and the souls of others ; believers are not.
I hold not grudge or judgment against non believers.
I hope my life and blessings I have and the sufferings God has brought me through shows others that being obedient works.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
God gave free will. You are free to believe of not believe.
Again, surrender and be obedient.
Your a thinker, you know this. We see this. If you don't believe, than you should not care of what a God, that you don't believe in will do or not do. The fact that you continue to find "reasons" to not believe, shows, at some unknown level to you, but known to us believers, that the Holy Spirit is speaking to you. The question is, will you surrender and seek, or seek to prove your already made up human mind. You spirit mind, is still on the fence.
I choose to believe, so I care about my souls and the souls of others ; believers are not.
I hold not grudge or judgment against non believers.
I hope my life and blessings I have and the sufferings God has brought me through shows others that being obedient works.
Funny because I was stubborn and hard headed. Went through a lot and God finally said "had enough?" I said absolutely and when I look back at those times and events they were perfectly orchestrated to bring me to the end of myself. Praise Jesus!
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
This is an interesting question. For exploration, please post the documented list of disgusting behaviors by God, and the instances where God was required to intervene and did not. Thank you.
Well, I just gave two examples, perhaps you can start answering those instead of arrogantly asking me to prepare a long list.
I did not ask for a long list, but rather asked you to document God's disgusting behaviors in a list - even one example is a listing. I don't see a single such example in the above post. If you identified even one documented disgusting behavior, please re-post it. Same request for a required intervention that was not conducted. Thanks.
See my above post.
This is your "above post'': "Another threat by God...behavior that isn't tolerated in a modern world, but it's ok for God to do it." So - it is your position that a threat by God is disgusting behavior. Is that because you think that threats are not tolerated in your modern world? Or are you dodging the request to document what you label as God's "disgusting behaviors"?
My above post states: There's a subtle difference between telling God how to behave, and calling him out for intervening and executing with great vengeance a community should a tribe of people worship a false idol (that is, something that is not God) and then failing to take action when priests habitually sexually molest young innocent children who are attempting to worship God.
There is just about zero difference in that alleged "example" - whether your action is criticizing God or telling God what to do. In this thread, you give every appearance of being a gross hypocrite. You write about "disgusting behavior" by God and you also say that God does not intervene properly in human matters. However, you will not (or maybe can not) cite a single documented example of either alleged transgression by God.
Those are your claims - your terms - and you in no way have supported them. That, in itself, could be seen as disgusting. Were your claims honestly stated? If so, demonstrate that. Otherwise - hypocrisy.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
Actually now, who are these "some people" and how do you truly know the sincerity and fullness of their efforts? How have you determined that with accuracy? Or, are you merely stating a hypothetical as if it were real - and then trying to criticize God on such a flimsy basis? Or, are those cited "people" actually you? Is there any substance at all in your post?
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell.
God knowingly made you, then gave you free will. God does not control you or what you do, unless, you give yourself over and LET HIM LEAD you through life. You'd still be a sinner, simply because you're an undeserving human being with free will just like the rest of us, but at least you'd know the path to salvation and His Grace.
This is obviously too simple to understand for some people......
I can be a mass murderer, rape a bunch of kids. Lie, cheat, and steal what I want my entire life. Then a minute before I die can tell God I accept him (and mean it) and love him and then I’ll go to heaven when I die? Yes or no?
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell.
God knowingly made you, then gave you free will. God does not control you or what you do, unless, you give yourself over and LET HIM LEAD you through life. You'd still be a sinner, simply because you're an undeserving human being with free will just like the rest of us, but at least you'd know the path to salvation and His Grace.
This is obviously too simple to understand for some people......
The question whether humans have free will or not is a centuries old debate and is not resolved by you simply saying God gave us free will.
Originally Posted by Dons99
Originally Posted by Simplepeddler
Originally Posted by Riflehunter
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
God gave free will. You are free to believe of not believe.
Again, surrender and be obedient.
Your a thinker, you know this. We see this. If you don't believe, than you should not care of what a God, that you don't believe in will do or not do. The fact that you continue to find "reasons" to not believe, shows, at some unknown level to you, but known to us believers, that the Holy Spirit is speaking to you. The question is, will you surrender and seek, or seek to prove your already made up human mind. You spirit mind, is still on the fence.
I choose to believe, so I care about my souls and the souls of others ; believers are not.
I hold not grudge or judgment against non believers.
I hope my life and blessings I have and the sufferings God has brought me through shows others that being obedient works.
Funny because I was stubborn and hard headed. Went through a lot and God finally said "had enough?" I said absolutely and when I look back at those times and events they were perfectly orchestrated to bring me to the end of myself. Praise Jesus!
I at no stage said I don't believe in God. Every post is whether God's actions or lack of action is "right" or moral, or whether we should call Him out.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
Actually now, who are these "some people" and how do you truly know the sincerity and fullness of their efforts? How have you determined that with accuracy? Or, are you merely stating a hypothetical as if it were real - and then trying to criticize God on such a flimsy basis? Or, are those cited "people" actually you? Is there any substance at all in your post?
I'm not even going to reply to your post with your attitude. You denying that priests have molested innocent children and that God failed to intervene is evidence that a person can not discuss anything contrary to your view. There is no point in discussing anything with you.
I can be a mass murderer, rape a bunch of kids. Lie, cheat, and steal what I want my entire life. Then a minute before I die can tell God I accept him (and mean it) and love him and then I’ll go to heaven when I die? Yes or no?
According to my understanding of scripture. Yes. If you ask me to explain why. I cannot. There is much I do not know, but I do know the only sin that will send you to hell is the sin of unbelief.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell.
God knowingly made you, then gave you free will. God does not control you or what you do, unless, you give yourself over and LET HIM LEAD you through life. You'd still be a sinner, simply because you're an undeserving human being with free will just like the rest of us, but at least you'd know the path to salvation and His Grace.
This is obviously too simple to understand for some people......
The question whether humans have free will or not is a centuries old debate and is not resolved by you simply saying God gave us free will.
Originally Posted by Dons99
Originally Posted by Simplepeddler
Originally Posted by Riflehunter
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
God gave free will. You are free to believe of not believe.
Again, surrender and be obedient.
Your a thinker, you know this. We see this. If you don't believe, than you should not care of what a God, that you don't believe in will do or not do. The fact that you continue to find "reasons" to not believe, shows, at some unknown level to you, but known to us believers, that the Holy Spirit is speaking to you. The question is, will you surrender and seek, or seek to prove your already made up human mind. You spirit mind, is still on the fence.
I choose to believe, so I care about my souls and the souls of others ; believers are not.
I hold not grudge or judgment against non believers.
I hope my life and blessings I have and the sufferings God has brought me through shows others that being obedient works.
Funny because I was stubborn and hard headed. Went through a lot and God finally said "had enough?" I said absolutely and when I look back at those times and events they were perfectly orchestrated to bring me to the end of myself. Praise Jesus!
I at no stage said I don't believe in God. Every post is whether God's actions or lack of action is "right" or moral, or whether we should call Him out.
Sorry, I was just commenting to Peddlers post. Nothing directed at you.
Christians are supposed to tell non believers about God's saving grace. I've yet to understand why this upsets some people so much. Listen, believe it, don't believe it, ignore it, make fun of those who profess the truth, whatever. Just understand that is what we are tasked with doing. It isn't meant to offend or insult unbelievers, it is simply our job.
And when some commie climate twit preaches at you you will be fine with that, what about sitting there listening to biden or the gay brigade.
Same thing sport...it is intrusive and fucking annoying having some control freak telling me how to think.
At that point, I am commanded to dust off my feet and move on. Your blood will not be on my hands.
question?? Why defend your position? Just an observation but appears that you have a savior complex and your coming across as holier than thou. Why?
That wasn't my intention at all. I do appreciate your observation. I've always struggled with conveying my thoughts and beliefs in a way that didn't piss people off. I'm still working on it. Got any advice to that end?
no I really don't, I fall short in my walk all the time, I think the best thing I can do is lead by example I should clarify, my observation after reading all these posts is not just you but a lot of the ones that call themselves Christians have a savior complex, holier than thou and want to past Judgement on to those of us that don't necessarily agree with your ideology, if God is who you believe and say he is let him do the convicting, saving and judging. Maybe we mortals can lead by example.
You seem sincere to me, and I sincerely appreciate your response to my question. It gives me much to think about and work on. I am a poor example, but I do feel the need to share my knowledge of God anyway.
I can be a mass murderer, rape a bunch of kids. Lie, cheat, and steal what I want my entire life. Then a minute before I die can tell God I accept him (and mean it) and love him and then I’ll go to heaven when I die? Yes or no?
According to my understanding of scripture. Yes. If you ask me to explain why. I cannot. There is much I do not know, but I do know the only sin that will send you to hell is the sin of unbelief.
This is another example of God doing the wrong thing. Yet a person can be a hero, good person in every respect, yet he sincerely believes that there is no god....then he gets sent to Hell for eternity. By any standards, this is wrong!!
I can be a mass murderer, rape a bunch of kids. Lie, cheat, and steal what I want my entire life. Then a minute before I die can tell God I accept him (and mean it) and love him and then I’ll go to heaven when I die? Yes or no?
A sin is any thought or action that falls short of God’s perfection. Big or small. In one sense, it seems obvious that some sins are worse than others in both motivation and effects, and should be judged accordingly. Stealing a loaf of bread because you’re hungry is very different than raping children or committing mass murder.
At the same time, all sins…whether in thought, word, or deed…are equal in that they all separate us from God.
So whether our sins are relatively small or significantly huge, they will ALL separate us from our Creator. The good news is that Jesus paid the penalty for ALL of our sins and ALL of the sins of the whole world at His crucifixion. If we will simply accept God’s grace and mercy, and put our trust and confidence in Jesus alone, our sins will be forgiven. Period. And our Creator will not only walk through this life with us, but we can spend eternity in His presence.
It’s not that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. It’s that forgiven people go to heaven and unforgiven people go to hell. I think hell ultimately is to be eternally separated from God...and Heaven ultimately is to be eternally with Him.
In terms of evangelizing atheists, we should not hold back the gospel from someone just because he or she claims to be an atheist. Do not forget that an atheist is just as lost as a Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist. God certainly wants us to spread the gospel and to defend the truths of His word. I am not, however, obligated to waste my time trying to convince the unwilling. In fact, we are warned not to expend excessive effort on those who are clearly disinterested in any honest discussions (Matthew 7:6).
So God created Malaria, Bubonic plague, Leprosy, Smallpox, Tuberculosis, Cholera, Anthrax, Tetanis, etc?
God created a utopia first, free of all that and everything else, but with man's sin and disobeying God, the world has fallen. This world is what it is, mostly controlled by Satan as evident by the widespread pain and suffering.
None of that exists in Heaven, as promised by God, and the only way there is through believing in His Son as your Savior. It's a choice only each person can make.
Man's sin ruined the utopia God created?
Given omniscience and omnipotence, how is that possible? Unless it was the plan, in which case the responsibility lies with God.
And the existence of germs and viruses proves natural evolution....unless they are designed by God?
Given omniscience and omnipotence, how is that possible? Unless it was the plan, in which case the responsibility lies with God.
And the existence of germs and viruses proves natural evolution....unless they are designed by God?
God created the perfect world, he created man with free will, man screwed it all up, God sent Jesus to take on the sins of believers. God knew it was going to happen, as nothing takes Him by surprise. God is not going to make anyone love or accept him. It's not real hard.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
Actually now, who are these "some people" and how do you truly know the sincerity and fullness of their efforts? How have you determined that with accuracy? Or, are you merely stating a hypothetical as if it were real - and then trying to criticize God on such a flimsy basis? Or, are those cited "people" actually you? Is there any substance at all in your post?
I'm not even going to reply to your post with your attitude. You denying that priests have molested innocent children and that God failed to intervene is evidence that a person can not discuss anything contrary to your view. There is no point in discussing anything with you.
What a joke! Check all of the posts - I denied nothing, so your entire "reason" is void. Either you are delusional or you are a liar - take your pick. I simply asked you to document your negative claims about disgusting behavior and negligence by God. You responded with zilch.
My attitude is that I ask questions regarding your statements - questions that you will not, or can not, answer. You make nasty claims about God being disgusting, refuse to document your reasons, and then use a false excuse about "attitude" to cut and run when a mere human holds you accountable. That is your disgusting behavior. What do you imagine that God thinks of that?
Just some rambling thoughts from the back of the room......
This is no more or no less complicated than the basic struggle between good and evil. God is good, Satan is evil, end of story. And the influences of either are easily seen by anyone with even half a lick of sense. Why anyone would live their lives with an adamant rejection of good is just beyond me.
We spend our lives mistreating ourselves, each other, this planet and all that's in it, and we mistreat our Creator. Not one of us deserves God's grace, yet, with a simple sincere plea for forgiveness, He gives it.
It's a little late to continue to be torn up about the first coming of Christ. Mankind has been given many second chances, and have royally screwed it up each and every time.
The real concern should be the second coming of Christ, because as promised, when that happens, God will take His believers home in one fell swoop, the non-believers will be left to Satan, and this world will cease to exist. Like it or not, since Jesus died on that cross, we are currently living through our one last chance.
Yet it believed that God created satan. Being omniscient and omnipotent, God would know that He was creating evil. And that is what is written in the bible, that God creates evil.
Man's sin ruined the utopia God created? Given omniscience and omnipotence, how is that possible? Unless it was the plan, in which case the responsibility lies with God. And the existence of germs and viruses proves natural evolution....unless they are designed by God?
God created the perfect world, he created man with free will, man screwed it all up, God sent Jesus to take on the sins of believers. God knew it was going to happen, as nothing takes Him by surprise. God is not going to make anyone love or accept him. It's not real hard.
Excellent response. It seems as though Satan's tools get into some threads. Some here will consistently try to deny the existence of free will for humans. They must need someone else to take responsibility/blame for their behavior.
Why don't people live happy with what they believe and STFU?
I swear, this thread is like a Vegan/Lesbian conversion session.
There's probably hundreds of threads on the fire that you are knowledgeable and passionate about and yet you come here to this thread that you obviously don't care about and then voice your opinion against this thread...SMH
Man's sin ruined the utopia God created? Given omniscience and omnipotence, how is that possible? Unless it was the plan, in which case the responsibility lies with God. And the existence of germs and viruses proves natural evolution....unless they are designed by God?
God created the perfect world, he created man with free will, man screwed it all up, God sent Jesus to take on the sins of believers. God knew it was going to happen, as nothing takes Him by surprise. God is not going to make anyone love or accept him. It's not real hard.
Excellent response. It seems as though Satan's tools get into some threads. Some here will consistently try to deny the existence of free will for humans. They must need someone else to take responsibility/blame for their behavior.
That's the way, pretend to miss the point. That way you don't have to deal with any inconvenient issues.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell.
God knowingly made you, then gave you free will. God does not control you or what you do, unless, you give yourself over and LET HIM LEAD you through life. You'd still be a sinner, simply because you're an undeserving human being with free will just like the rest of us, but at least you'd know the path to salvation and His Grace.
This is obviously too simple to understand for some people......
The question whether humans have free will or not is a centuries old debate and is not resolved by you simply saying God gave us free will.
I didn't say it friend, God Himself said it.
There is no debate to be had.
"Thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee” (Moses 3:17).
God has told us that we are free to choose between good and evil, the very core of a human being's free will. I will repeat, read a Bible, the answers are there.
Just some rambling thoughts from the back of the room......
This is no more or no less complicated than the basic struggle between good and evil. God is good, Satan is evil, end of story. And the influences of either are easily seen by anyone with even half a lick of sense. Why anyone would live their lives with an adamant rejection of good is just beyond me.
We spend our lives mistreating ourselves, each other, this planet and all that's in it, and we mistreat our Creator. Not one of us deserves God's grace, yet, with a simple sincere plea for forgiveness, He gives it.
It's a little late to continue to be torn up about the first coming of Christ. Mankind has been given many second chances, and have royally screwed it up each and every time.
The real concern should be the second coming of Christ, because as promised, when that happens, God will take His believers home in one fell swoop, the non-believers will be left to Satan, and this world will cease to exist. Like it or not, since Jesus died on that cross, we are currently living through our one last chance.
Yet it believed that God created satan. Being omniscient and omnipotent, God would know that He was creating evil. And that is what is written in the bible, that God creates evil.
Wow, that's a stretch with context.
God created Lucifer. Lucifer, aka Satan is traditionally understood as an angel who rebelled against God and was cast out of Heaven with other “fallen” angels before the creation of humankind.
"God created Satan as Lucifer, the highest ranking angel of all. Lucifer, however, wasn’t content to worship and serve his Creator. Full of pride, he rebelled, leading a third of the angels. Unable to match the Almighty God, Lucifer was cast to the earth where he has operated as the devil ever since. The biblical passages of Job, Isaiah 14:12-15, Matthew 4:3-10, and Revelation 12:7-12 provide a glimpse of Satan’s history and character."
Christianity is actually founded upon the fact that the worst possible thing happened to the best possible person.
Kind of takes the wind out of peoples sails to live a good life.
And if you end up in heaven you'll be able to catch up with Jeffrey Dahmer - I'll bet he's got a story or two to keep one amused in the eternal afterlife.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
This is an interesting question. For exploration, please post the documented list of disgusting behaviors by God, and the instances where God was required to intervene and did not. Thank you.
Man's sin ruined the utopia God created? Given omniscience and omnipotence, how is that possible? Unless it was the plan, in which case the responsibility lies with God. And the existence of germs and viruses proves natural evolution....unless they are designed by God?
God created the perfect world, he created man with free will, man screwed it all up, God sent Jesus to take on the sins of believers. God knew it was going to happen, as nothing takes Him by surprise. God is not going to make anyone love or accept him. It's not real hard.
Excellent response. It seems as though Satan's tools get into some threads. Some here will consistently try to deny the existence of free will for humans. They must need someone else to take responsibility/blame for their behavior.
That's the way, pretend to miss the point. That way you don't have to deal with any inconvenient issues.
The actual point is that dealing with the outcomes of human free will is often mightily inconvenient.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
Actually now, who are these "some people" and how do you truly know the sincerity and fullness of their efforts? How have you determined that with accuracy? Or, are you merely stating a hypothetical as if it were real - and then trying to criticize God on such a flimsy basis? Or, are those cited "people" actually you? Is there any substance at all in your post?
I'm not even going to reply to your post with your attitude. You denying that priests have molested innocent children and that God failed to intervene is evidence that a person can not discuss anything contrary to your view. There is no point in discussing anything with you.
What a joke! Check all of the posts - I denied nothing, so your entire "reason" is void. Either you are delusional or you are a liar - take your pick. I simply asked you to document your negative claims about disgusting behavior and negligence by God. You responded with zilch.
My attitude is that I ask questions regarding your statements - questions that you will not, or can not, answer. You make nasty claims about God being disgusting, refuse to document your reasons, and then use a false excuse about "attitude" to cut and run when a mere human holds you accountable. That is your disgusting behavior. What do you imagine that God thinks of that?
What don't you understand when you ask for an example of God being negligent, and I respond with an example being his failure to intervene when priests are molesting innocent children when they are sent to church to worship and learn about God? I've stated this several times and responded several times and you keep saying I've given no examples? Then you are insulting! I said in a polite way that I don't wish to reply to your posts on the basis that you seem to be on a completely different wavelength, and are not understanding the replies I make, but you keep wanting to draw me into an argument about things I've responded to you about, saying I haven't responded. You are a complete idiot.
Why can’t folks who deny God simply refrain from clicking on such threads?
Because the question was asked! This might bend some shorts in a kink but what if it’s the best novel ever written? Some people are willing to take the chance it was and some aren’t so to each his or her own and how about not trying to convince the others that they are wrong.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
The answers to all your questions are in there.
The example of God intervening when a tribe of people worship a false idol is from the Bible and is an example of comprehending it. The example of God not intervening when priests sexually abuse children is a glaring omission from the Bible. So that constitutes full comprehension of the Bible....but it doesn't explain why some of you defenders of God's poor behavior don't call him out and show some courage.
Because we are taught to be obedient and surrender to something greater than us. It's a hard thing to do when one thinks they are greater themselves.
I've said here earlier, hard to seek the face of God when you think you are a God. That is the sin that Adam committed. The devil convinced him that eating the fruit would enable him (Adam) to be "as" God.
Jesus was the second Adam, As God's direct son, through a birth, his blood is the final blood to be sacrificed. Animal blood sacrifice was old testament.
I can somewhat relate to your thought of "calling God out". My sister lost her daughter when she was 10. That is now 15 years ago.
In her words, not mine................"I am pissed at God, and He will have some questions I will need answered when I get to heaven. My job is to live a life to get to heaven to ask those questions"
Unfortunately, we all too often forget there is a devil (The world) that is here everyday to convince us "we are just like God" ---------------- The Original sin.
At the end of the day, surrender and obedience are tough words in a world that advertises "have it your way" - "you DESERVE a break today" - "you only live once" kind of crap.
I'm not expecting anyone to understand my thought process, but I will absolutely testify that joy has come to me by being obedient to the word and surrendering to the unforced rhythms of the Holy Spirit.
Quote "It wasn't nearly as much suffering for Jesus as it would be for a normal person. He had full knowledge that it wasn't really the end for him and that he was merely passing from one place to another. In the new place he would be worshipped, respected for evermore. Sure, there was some temporary pain, but he knew he would transcend all that."
Jesus knew exactly what He was going to go through, thats why the night before his crucifixion we get these accounts, Matthew 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” and Luke 22:44 And being in agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground. He was not just going to die a physical death, He was going to have ALL the sin of the world be put upon Him, because only He could pay the price from times before to all time after and all this while being separated from the Father... Also let's not forget that he was beaten beyond measure before all this happened, this is Isaiah's description 52:14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him[c]— his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness—and 53:2-5 He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. 4 Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
I have met two types of people who believe in god The first group believes in god due to fear. They are always predicting about non believers going to hell for eternity. Saying you believe just because you want to go to heaven isn’t believing. Group two are the ones who have to quote scriptures from the Bible because they don’t have the ability to formulate an opinion of their own.
Living in the Bible Belt in Tennessee has taught me how unkind most people are in the name of god. You either attend their particular church or they thumb their nose at you. Doesn’t matter if the church is the same denomination or not.
Parts of me admire people who have blind faith in god. The way my brain is wired I will remain a non believer until a sign from god convinces me to do otherwise. I will not fake a belief.
Hold on there big guy, let me say I use bible verses because first they are the word of God and I don't want to misquote Him and second if I give you my opinion you will just say " well that's your opinion". I can give you my opinion all day long and it doesn't mean squat because I don't make the rules but if I give you the word of God then your argument is with Him not me, and He's a big boy so go ahead and ask, complain, or protest, many have in the bible.
And yes you are right about believers fearing God because He warns us to. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" also "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
With that being said God is good, kind, patient, and righteous also saying in Romans 2:4 "Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?"
On your last note, yes Christians including myself can be azzholes but that's part of the human condition and I really do try my best. And you were right not to try and fake anything because God will call those people out on the last day.
God didn't create the perfect world, he knowingly created a world which he knew was going to plunge into widespread sin. No one else had anything to do with this creation but God. And when this world did stuff-up as God knew it would because he designed it so that it would, he then punishes innocent victims (such as the priest-molested children, or those that try as they might, they reach the wrong conclusion about God) for his flawed design of the world! Oh, but I suppose a 9 year old victim of sexual abuse by the priest had free-will...so it was their fault!!!
Why don't some of you strong defenders of God's disgusting behavior or lack of intervention when appropriate, be strong enough to call him out and tell him he needs to lift his game? He needs to change.
Some of you just need to read a Bible, AND comprehend it.
The answers to all your questions are in there.
The example of God intervening when a tribe of people worship a false idol is from the Bible and is an example of comprehending it. The example of God not intervening when priests sexually abuse children is a glaring omission from the Bible. So that constitutes full comprehension of the Bible....but it doesn't explain why some of you defenders of God's poor behavior don't call him out and show some courage.
Because we are taught to be obedient and surrender to something greater than us. It's a hard thing to do when one thinks they are greater themselves.
I've said here earlier, hard to seek the face of God when you think you are a God. That is the sin that Adam committed. The devil convinced him that eating the fruit would enable him (Adam) to be "as" God.
Jesus was the second Adam, As God's direct son, through a birth, his blood is the final blood to be sacrificed. Animal blood sacrifice was old testament.
I can somewhat relate to your thought of "calling God out". My sister lost her daughter when she was 10. That is now 15 years ago.
In her words, not mine................"I am pissed at God, and He will have some questions I will need answered when I get to heaven. My job is to live a life to get to heaven to ask those questions"
Unfortunately, we all too often forget there is a devil (The world) that is here everyday to convince us "we are just like God" ---------------- The Original sin.
At the end of the day, surrender and obedience are tough words in a world that advertises "have it your way" - "you DESERVE a break today" - "you only live once" kind of crap.
I'm not expecting anyone to understand my thought process, but I will absolutely testify that joy has come to me by being obedient to the word and surrendering to the unforced rhythms of the Holy Spirit.
Great post and spot on.
To believe that a higher authority (such as God) is not doing everything correctly is NOT thinking you are just like God. We often request higher authorities to be more accountable for their decisions and to request that they act more responsibly, but that in no way means you are putting yourself or attempting to put yourself on that higher level.
God didn't create the perfect world, he knowingly created a world which he knew was going to plunge into widespread sin. No one else had anything to do with this creation but God. And when this world did stuff-up as God knew it would because he designed it so that it would, he then punishes innocent victims (such as the priest-molested children, or those that try as they might, they reach the wrong conclusion about God) for his flawed design of the world! Oh, but I suppose a 9 year old victim of sexual abuse by the priest had free-will...so it was their fault!!!
How many of those of you who believe that God is always righteous and infallible can now choose not to believe in God's righteousness? If you think you can, please do so now, just for a few moments. Not a single one of you can, but you have free-will, supposedly. Your brain has come up with the answer that you believe in what God does and there is absolutely no possibility that you can disbelieve in God's righteousness. Likewise, for someone who has examined all the evidence and concluded that God does not exist. He can't then believe that he does exist...despite the supposed free-will that he has. But he is nevertheless sent to Hell for eternity for his "crime" of not believing in something that he can't believe in.
God didn't create the perfect world, he knowingly created a world which he knew was going to plunge into widespread sin. No one else had anything to do with this creation but God. And when this world did stuff-up as God knew it would because he designed it so that it would, he then punishes innocent victims (such as the priest-molested children, or those that try as they might, they reach the wrong conclusion about God) for his flawed design of the world! Oh, but I suppose a 9 year old victim of sexual abuse by the priest had free-will...so it was their fault!!!
What the heck???
If there is something that you don't understand or something that you disagree with, you are free to post your question or your reasons for disagreement.
How many of those of you who believe that God is always righteous and infallible can now choose not to believe in God's righteousness? If you think you can, please do so now, just for a few moments. Not a single one of you can, but you have free-will, supposedly. Your brain has come up with the answer that you believe in what God does and there is absolutely no possibility that you can disbelieve in God's righteousness. Likewise, for someone who has examined all the evidence and concluded that God does not exist. He can't then believe that he does exist...despite the supposed free-will that he has. But he is nevertheless sent to Hell for eternity for his "crime" of not believing in something that he can't believe in.
This might be the answer your looking for... 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with ALL your heart. Jeremiah 29:13
And, Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" 1 Cor 12:13
So seek Jesus with ALL your heart and God the Holy Spirit will enlighten you so then you will be able to believe and truly say Jesus is Lord.
All these people who take so much time arguing that God does not exist are actually secret believers in God. How many of you atheists and so call God deniers believe in a tooth fairy? I have no doubt none of you, yet I don't see you posting arguments against it, yet you can't wait to show your hatred for God who you say does not exist. If he doesn't exist why don't you just leave the subject alone. But you can't, can you.
In reality deep down inside you actually know He does exist and it's driving you crazy so in your anger you lash out hoping to persuade yourself and also hoping that other unbelievers can somehow persuade you that God does not exist. You actually are closet believers.
The fact is that God created you with knowledge of Himself, just as He did in all creatures and there's nothing you can do about it, therefore it angers you but in reality you are mad at your ownselves for having these feelings.
Who are you to question The Creator of everything from the Stars in the heavens to the hell below and The Creator of every little cell in your body. You can't create an eyelash for yourself, much less get the board out of your own eye.
Everything is HIS. You and your miserable existence and your wife and great grandparents and great grandchildren are HIS to do with as HE wishes and for His purpose.
When one builds a sandcastle on the beach who gets to do with it what that person wishes?
The only thing you can make is fertilizer and HE had to give you the breath of life and teeth and the food to eat for that.
Did you ever step on a pissant? What gave you that right? You didn't make it. Even it was HIS.
You think you have scored points in hitting at HIM? You are but dust in the wind.
You ungrateful wretch. HE gave you everything you have while you deserved nothing. HE even offered you everlasting life.
You're the one who's pissing that away. You deserve the Hell you've chosen. You rejected more than trillions of dollars can buy.
You rejected the cleaning blood of JESUS CHRIST all because you were too stiff-necked to make one plea.
You chose Hell and for all eternity. Now quit your belly aching.
You should be thankful, Riflehunter, I would have turned you into crocodile schiett long ago.
How many of those of you who believe that God is always righteous and infallible can now choose not to believe in God's righteousness? If you think you can, please do so now, just for a few moments. Not a single one of you can, but you have free-will, supposedly. Your brain has come up with the answer that you believe in what God does and there is absolutely no possibility that you can disbelieve in God's righteousness. Likewise, for someone who has examined all the evidence and concluded that God does not exist. He can't then believe that he does exist...despite the supposed free-will that he has. But he is nevertheless sent to Hell for eternity for his "crime" of not believing in something that he can't believe in.
This might be the answer your looking for... 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with ALL your heart. Jeremiah 29:13
And, Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" 1 Cor 12:13
So seek Jesus with ALL your heart and God the Holy Spirit will enlighten you so then you will be able to believe and truly say Jesus is Lord.
Who are you to question The Creator of everything from the Stars in the heavens to the hell below and The Creator of every little cell in your body. You can't create an eyelash for yourself, much less get the board out of your own eye.
Everything is HIS. You and your miserable existence and your wife and great grandparents and great grandchildren are HIS to do with as HE wishes and for His purpose.
When one builds a sandcastle on the beach who gets to do with it what that person wishes?
The only thing you can make is fertilizer and HE had to give you the breath of life and teeth and the food to eat for that.
Did you ever step on a pissant? What gave you that right? You didn't make it. Even it was HIS.
You think you have scored points in hitting at HIM? You are but dust in the wind.
You ungrateful wretch. HE gave you everything you have while you deserved nothing. HE even offered you everlasting life.
You're the one who's pissing that away. You deserve the Hell you've chosen. You rejected more than trillions of dollars can buy.
You rejected the cleaning blood of JESUS CHRIST all because you were too stiff-necked to make one plea.
You chose Hell and for all eternity. Now quit your belly aching.
You should be thankful, Riflehunter, I would have turned you into crocodile schiett long ago.
I don't accept that we are just slaves to God with no right to fairness, no right to have opinions, no right to question what we think is wrong. It's 2024, I believe we have rights, so I disagree with your post.
All these people who take so much time arguing that God does not exist are actually secret believers in God. How many of you atheists and so call God deniers believe in a tooth fairy? I have no doubt none of you, yet I don't see you posting arguments against it, yet you can't wait to show your hatred for God who you say does not exist. If he doesn't exist why don't you just leave the subject alone. But you can't, can you.
In reality deep down inside you actually know He does exist and it's driving you crazy so in your anger you lash out hoping to persuade yourself and also hoping that other unbelievers can somehow persuade you that God does not exist. You actually are closet believers.
The fact is that God created you with knowledge of Himself, just as He did in all creatures and there's nothing you can do about it, therefore it angers you but in reality you are mad at your ownselves for having these feelings.
Duke, I don't believe that is the case...otherwise the converse is also true i.e. all those people who take so much time arguing that God exists are actually secret disbelievers in God, etc , etc.
How many of those of you who believe that God is always righteous and infallible can now choose not to believe in God's righteousness? If you think you can, please do so now, just for a few moments. Not a single one of you can, but you have free-will, supposedly. Your brain has come up with the answer that you believe in what God does and there is absolutely no possibility that you can disbelieve in God's righteousness. Likewise, for someone who has examined all the evidence and concluded that God does not exist. He can't then believe that he does exist...despite the supposed free-will that he has. But he is nevertheless sent to Hell for eternity for his "crime" of not believing in something that he can't believe in.
You’ve spent the entire thread blaming God for, according to you at least, all the things God hasn’t done which you believe He should have done and you blame God for CAUSING the sins of man. You blame God in virtually every other post for molestation, rape and the sexual crimes of man, which seems to be an interesting but telling obsession with you considering how many other terrible things man does….but that’s between you and your therapist….BUT then you go on, in your “enlightened” and I’m sure highly researched opinion, to claim that the “guy” you’re blaming does NOT exist? So which is it? He either exists but doesn’t act in the way that you think He should or He doesn’t exist and you are obsessively performing an exercise in futility…
You can get as mad as you want at those of us who BELIEVE but if you’re trying to convince us with your convoluted argument that He doesn’t exist then I’m afraid you’ve wasted a hell of a lot of time…..you have inadvertently “proven” several things but not about God, religion or sin. 😉
All these people who take so much time arguing that God does not exist are actually secret believers in God. How many of you atheists and so call God deniers believe in a tooth fairy? I have no doubt none of you, yet I don't see you posting arguments against it, yet you can't wait to show your hatred for God who you say does not exist. If he doesn't exist why don't you just leave the subject alone. But you can't, can you.
In reality deep down inside you actually know He does exist and it's driving you crazy so in your anger you lash out hoping to persuade yourself and also hoping that other unbelievers can somehow persuade you that God does not exist. You actually are closet believers.
The fact is that God created you with knowledge of Himself, just as He did in all creatures and there's nothing you can do about it, therefore it angers you but in reality you are mad at your ownselves for having these feelings.
Duke, I don't believe that is the case...otherwise the converse is also true i.e. all those people who take so much time arguing that God exists are actually secret disbelievers in God, etc , etc.
It's not one and the same Riflehunter. Believers in God simply proclaim the gospel and only argue that God exists when unbelievers dispute His existence, they don't start threads just to argue that God exists.
How many of those of you who believe that God is always righteous and infallible can now choose not to believe in God's righteousness? If you think you can, please do so now, just for a few moments. Not a single one of you can, but you have free-will, supposedly. Your brain has come up with the answer that you believe in what God does and there is absolutely no possibility that you can disbelieve in God's righteousness. Likewise, for someone who has examined all the evidence and concluded that God does not exist. He can't then believe that he does exist...despite the supposed free-will that he has. But he is nevertheless sent to Hell for eternity for his "crime" of not believing in something that he can't believe in.
You’ve spent the entire thread blaming God for, according to you at least, all the things God hasn’t done which you believe He should have done and you blame God for CAUSING the sins of man. You blame God in virtually every other post for molestation, rape and the sexual crimes of man, which seems to be an interesting but telling obsession with you considering how many other terrible things man does….but that’s between you and your therapist….BUT then you go on, in your “enlightened” and I’m sure highly researched opinion, to claim that the “guy” you’re blaming does NOT exist? So which is it? He either exists but doesn’t act in the way that you think He should or He doesn’t exist and you are obsessively performing an exercise in futility…
You can get as mad as you want at those of us who BELIEVE but if you’re trying to convince us with your convoluted argument that He doesn’t exist then I’m afraid you’ve wasted a hell of a lot of time…..you have inadvertently “proven” several things but not about God, religion or sin. 😉
Hello Aces, nice of you to join the conversation. I've read some of your posts with DBT and Mauser previously. Just a few things, I do blame God for some of the things, such as not intervening with priest child-molestation but intervening in things like worshipping false idols. I don't believe I've blamed God for all the sins of man, but I do believe he designed a universe that allowed those things to happen. I don't have a therapist, and don't consider I need one. I've clearly stated on this thread that I do think God exists,,,,but I think he should be more reasonable and that we have the right to ask him to be so. Please be courteous and try not to come across as though you are in a rage.
Many people know that God exists because they believe in the law of cause and effect. There have been a lotta questionable theories, and failed theories, trying to explain in a naturalistic way how the universe came into existence out of nothing.
The evidence that most scientists agree with, that space and time and matter had a beginning out of nothing, poses the question of what could’ve caused that…? And it’s mind-boggling to consider how fine tuned the universe is. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. That’s what the evidence shows (to me).
And that’s why a guy like Robert Jastrow, who was an agnostic and not a believer, came to the conclusion that if there was a beginning to the universe, then there was also a Creator.
"Astronomers now find they have painted themselves into a corner because they have proven, by their own methods, that the world began abruptly in an act of creation to which you can trace the seeds of every star, every planet, every living thing in this cosmos and on the earth. And they have found that all this happened as a product of forces they cannot hope to discover. That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact." - Robert Jastrow, renowned astronomer, astrophysicist, geophysicist, and NASA scientist
All these people who take so much time arguing that God does not exist are actually secret believers in God. How many of you atheists and so call God deniers believe in a tooth fairy? I have no doubt none of you, yet I don't see you posting arguments against it, yet you can't wait to show your hatred for God who you say does not exist. If he doesn't exist why don't you just leave the subject alone. But you can't, can you.
In reality deep down inside you actually know He does exist and it's driving you crazy so in your anger you lash out hoping to persuade yourself and also hoping that other unbelievers can somehow persuade you that God does not exist. You actually are closet believers.
The fact is that God created you with knowledge of Himself, just as He did in all creatures and there's nothing you can do about it, therefore it angers you but in reality you are mad at your ownselves for having these feelings.
Duke, I don't believe that is the case...otherwise the converse is also true i.e. all those people who take so much time arguing that God exists are actually secret disbelievers in God, etc , etc.
It's not one and the same Riflehunter. Believers in God simply proclaim the gospel and only argue that God exists when unbelievers dispute His existence, they don't start threads just to argue that God exists.
Duke, I think the reality is both sides probably have a small degree of uncertainty about whether they are correct, notwithstanding that they say otherwise.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
Actually now, who are these "some people" and how do you truly know the sincerity and fullness of their efforts? How have you determined that with accuracy? Or, are you merely stating a hypothetical as if it were real - and then trying to criticize God on such a flimsy basis? Or, are those cited "people" actually you? Is there any substance at all in your post?
I'm not even going to reply to your post with your attitude. You denying that priests have molested innocent children and that God failed to intervene is evidence that a person can not discuss anything contrary to your view. There is no point in discussing anything with you.
What a joke! Check all of the posts - I denied nothing, so your entire "reason" is void. Either you are delusional or you are a liar - take your pick. I simply asked you to document your negative claims about disgusting behavior and negligence by God. You responded with zilch.
My attitude is that I ask questions regarding your statements - questions that you will not, or can not, answer. You make nasty claims about God being disgusting, refuse to document your reasons, and then use a false excuse about "attitude" to cut and run when a mere human holds you accountable. That is your disgusting behavior. What do you imagine that God thinks of that?
What don't you understand when you ask for an example of God being negligent, and I respond with an example being his failure to intervene when priests are molesting innocent children when they are sent to church to worship and learn about God? I've stated this several times and responded several times and you keep saying I've given no examples? Then you are insulting! I said in a polite way that I don't wish to reply to your posts on the basis that you seem to be on a completely different wavelength, and are not understanding the replies I make, but you keep wanting to draw me into an argument about things I've responded to you about, saying I haven't responded. You are a complete idiot.
Very few things are complete, and I am not. You are the one who made this exchange personal and tried to run away when challenged. You take a strange position - that you can declare God's behavior disgusting and then justifiably get bent out of shape when a rational person asks you to document your claim. If that is not oddball in this discussion, nothing is.
You noted the child abuse by priests earlier, but you did not cite non-intervention by God in response to my question. I don't try to read minds and am not responsible for assuming what you might be trying to say. Further, how on earth do you as an individual know what God has done, or not done, with regard to intervention in that sinful and shameful behavior? You don't - you merely assume no intervention and then state judgement on God on the basis of assumption. Sin is common and pervasive as an exercise of human free will and God has addressed that matter. Something I see as uncommon, and fortunately/seemingly not pervasive, is the position of a person who claims to recognize the role and authority of God and yet expects God to behave according to your personal wants and judgments. That is a strange one - as is a bunch of what you state.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
Actually now, who are these "some people" and how do you truly know the sincerity and fullness of their efforts? How have you determined that with accuracy? Or, are you merely stating a hypothetical as if it were real - and then trying to criticize God on such a flimsy basis? Or, are those cited "people" actually you? Is there any substance at all in your post?
I'm not even going to reply to your post with your attitude. You denying that priests have molested innocent children and that God failed to intervene is evidence that a person can not discuss anything contrary to your view. There is no point in discussing anything with you.
What a joke! Check all of the posts - I denied nothing, so your entire "reason" is void. Either you are delusional or you are a liar - take your pick. I simply asked you to document your negative claims about disgusting behavior and negligence by God. You responded with zilch.
My attitude is that I ask questions regarding your statements - questions that you will not, or can not, answer. You make nasty claims about God being disgusting, refuse to document your reasons, and then use a false excuse about "attitude" to cut and run when a mere human holds you accountable. That is your disgusting behavior. What do you imagine that God thinks of that?
What don't you understand when you ask for an example of God being negligent, and I respond with an example being his failure to intervene when priests are molesting innocent children when they are sent to church to worship and learn about God? I've stated this several times and responded several times and you keep saying I've given no examples? Then you are insulting! I said in a polite way that I don't wish to reply to your posts on the basis that you seem to be on a completely different wavelength, and are not understanding the replies I make, but you keep wanting to draw me into an argument about things I've responded to you about, saying I haven't responded. You are a complete idiot.
Very few things are complete, and I am not. You are the one who made this exchange personal and tried to run away when challenged. You take a strange position - that you can declare God's behavior disgusting and then justifiably get bent out of shape when a rational person asks you to document your claim. If that is not oddball in this discussion, nothing is.
You noted the child abuse by priests earlier, but you did not cite non-intervention by God in response to my question. I don't try to read minds and am not responsible for assuming what you might be trying to say. Further, how on earth do you as an individual know what God has done, or not done, with regard to intervention in that sinful and shameful behavior? You don't - you merely assume no intervention and then state judgement on God on the basis of assumption. Sin is common and pervasive as an exercise of human free will and God has addressed that matter. Something I see as uncommon, and fortunately/seemingly not pervasive, is the position of a person who claims to recognize the role and authority of God and yet expects God to behave according to your personal wants and judgments. That is a strange one - as is a bunch of what you state.
All through my posts I mentioned the non-intervention of God in priest child-molestation cases, so once again, you seem to be on a different wavelength to me. The multitude of priest child-molestation is well-known, appearing on the media, court cases etc. For you to argue that maybe God did intervene in these cases but I don't know about it is absurd. One can recognize the position of a higher authority but still be critical about some of the things that higher authority does...that is not an unreasonable stance. I do think when I reach the gates of Heaven, God will call out my name, open the gate and say "Riflehunter, well done my brave crusader!"
Many people know that God exists because they believe in the law of cause and effect. There have been a lotta questionable theories, and failed theories, trying to explain in a naturalistic way how the universe came into existence out of nothing.
The evidence that most scientists agree with, that space and time and matter had a beginning out of nothing, poses the question of what could’ve caused that…? And it’s mind-boggling to consider how fine tuned the universe is. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. That’s what the evidence shows (to me).
And that’s why a guy like Robert Jastrow, who was an agnostic and not a believer, came to the conclusion that if there was a beginning to the universe, then there was also a Creator.
"Astronomers now find they have painted themselves into a corner because they have proven, by their own methods, that the world began abruptly in an act of creation to which you can trace the seeds of every star, every planet, every living thing in this cosmos and on the earth. And they have found that all this happened as a product of forces they cannot hope to discover. That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact." - Robert Jastrow, renowned astronomer, astrophysicist, geophysicist, and NASA scientist
Quote mining.
Jastrow, a self professed agnostic, was expressing his own beliefs.
The conditions prior to the BB are not known, and "we don't know, therefore God" is neither an explanation or a valid argument.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
Actually now, who are these "some people" and how do you truly know the sincerity and fullness of their efforts? How have you determined that with accuracy? Or, are you merely stating a hypothetical as if it were real - and then trying to criticize God on such a flimsy basis? Or, are those cited "people" actually you? Is there any substance at all in your post?
I'm not even going to reply to your post with your attitude. You denying that priests have molested innocent children and that God failed to intervene is evidence that a person can not discuss anything contrary to your view. There is no point in discussing anything with you.
What a joke! Check all of the posts - I denied nothing, so your entire "reason" is void. Either you are delusional or you are a liar - take your pick. I simply asked you to document your negative claims about disgusting behavior and negligence by God. You responded with zilch.
My attitude is that I ask questions regarding your statements - questions that you will not, or can not, answer. You make nasty claims about God being disgusting, refuse to document your reasons, and then use a false excuse about "attitude" to cut and run when a mere human holds you accountable. That is your disgusting behavior. What do you imagine that God thinks of that?
What don't you understand when you ask for an example of God being negligent, and I respond with an example being his failure to intervene when priests are molesting innocent children when they are sent to church to worship and learn about God? I've stated this several times and responded several times and you keep saying I've given no examples? Then you are insulting! I said in a polite way that I don't wish to reply to your posts on the basis that you seem to be on a completely different wavelength, and are not understanding the replies I make, but you keep wanting to draw me into an argument about things I've responded to you about, saying I haven't responded. You are a complete idiot.
Very few things are complete, and I am not. You are the one who made this exchange personal and tried to run away when challenged. You take a strange position - that you can declare God's behavior disgusting and then justifiably get bent out of shape when a rational person asks you to document your claim. If that is not oddball in this discussion, nothing is.
You noted the child abuse by priests earlier, but you did not cite non-intervention by God in response to my question. I don't try to read minds and am not responsible for assuming what you might be trying to say. Further, how on earth do you as an individual know what God has done, or not done, with regard to intervention in that sinful and shameful behavior? You don't - you merely assume no intervention and then state judgement on God on the basis of assumption. Sin is common and pervasive as an exercise of human free will and God has addressed that matter. Something I see as uncommon, and fortunately/seemingly not pervasive, is the position of a person who claims to recognize the role and authority of God and yet expects God to behave according to your personal wants and judgments. That is a strange one - as is a bunch of what you state.
All through my posts I mentioned the non-intervention of God in priest child-molestation cases, so once again, you seem to be on a different wavelength to me. The multitude of priest child-molestation is well-known, appearing on the media, court cases etc. For you to argue that maybe God did intervene in these cases but I don't know about it is absurd. One can recognize the position of a higher authority but still be critical about some of the things that higher authority does...that is not an unreasonable stance. I do think when I reach the gates of Heaven, God will call out my name, open the gate and say "Riflehunter, well done my brave crusader!"
You still have a comprehension problem. I did not argue that "maybe God did intervene". Rather, I asked how YOU know what God did or did not do. That is focus on your behavior/assumptions/expectations/judgments of God. You state that God's behavior is disgusting and rant about God not acting according to your expectations or demands. If your relationship with God causes you to feel righteous and confident in doing that, particularly on the basis of your personal judgment without documentation, you are operating in an orbit unknown to me. I have no comment on that relationship.
It's also rather bizarre that God knowingly made some people so that when those same people, to the very best of their abilities and with total honesty, come to an incorrect conclusion about God's existence, he punishes them by sending them to eternal hell. These are people who are not exercising any choice in believing or not believing, they have carefully thought about the question, have examined the evidence, acted with total honesty, and their brain generates the answer. The answer that their brain generates is that they don't think there is a god. Yet God punishes those people in the most severe manner possible. To me, that is a punishment completely out of proportion to the "crime"... if there is a crime at all. This is poor behavior by God.
Actually now, who are these "some people" and how do you truly know the sincerity and fullness of their efforts? How have you determined that with accuracy? Or, are you merely stating a hypothetical as if it were real - and then trying to criticize God on such a flimsy basis? Or, are those cited "people" actually you? Is there any substance at all in your post?
I'm not even going to reply to your post with your attitude. You denying that priests have molested innocent children and that God failed to intervene is evidence that a person can not discuss anything contrary to your view. There is no point in discussing anything with you.
What a joke! Check all of the posts - I denied nothing, so your entire "reason" is void. Either you are delusional or you are a liar - take your pick. I simply asked you to document your negative claims about disgusting behavior and negligence by God. You responded with zilch.
My attitude is that I ask questions regarding your statements - questions that you will not, or can not, answer. You make nasty claims about God being disgusting, refuse to document your reasons, and then use a false excuse about "attitude" to cut and run when a mere human holds you accountable. That is your disgusting behavior. What do you imagine that God thinks of that?
What don't you understand when you ask for an example of God being negligent, and I respond with an example being his failure to intervene when priests are molesting innocent children when they are sent to church to worship and learn about God? I've stated this several times and responded several times and you keep saying I've given no examples? Then you are insulting! I said in a polite way that I don't wish to reply to your posts on the basis that you seem to be on a completely different wavelength, and are not understanding the replies I make, but you keep wanting to draw me into an argument about things I've responded to you about, saying I haven't responded. You are a complete idiot.
Very few things are complete, and I am not. You are the one who made this exchange personal and tried to run away when challenged. You take a strange position - that you can declare God's behavior disgusting and then justifiably get bent out of shape when a rational person asks you to document your claim. If that is not oddball in this discussion, nothing is.
You noted the child abuse by priests earlier, but you did not cite non-intervention by God in response to my question. I don't try to read minds and am not responsible for assuming what you might be trying to say. Further, how on earth do you as an individual know what God has done, or not done, with regard to intervention in that sinful and shameful behavior? You don't - you merely assume no intervention and then state judgement on God on the basis of assumption. Sin is common and pervasive as an exercise of human free will and God has addressed that matter. Something I see as uncommon, and fortunately/seemingly not pervasive, is the position of a person who claims to recognize the role and authority of God and yet expects God to behave according to your personal wants and judgments. That is a strange one - as is a bunch of what you state.
All through my posts I mentioned the non-intervention of God in priest child-molestation cases, so once again, you seem to be on a different wavelength to me. The multitude of priest child-molestation is well-known, appearing on the media, court cases etc. For you to argue that maybe God did intervene in these cases but I don't know about it is absurd. One can recognize the position of a higher authority but still be critical about some of the things that higher authority does...that is not an unreasonable stance. I do think when I reach the gates of Heaven, God will call out my name, open the gate and say "Riflehunter, well done my brave crusader!"
You still have a comprehension problem. I did not argue that "maybe God did intervene". Rather, I asked how YOU know what God did or did not do. That is focus on your behavior/assumptions/expectations/judgments of God. You state that God's behavior is disgusting and rant about God not acting according to your expectations or demands. If your relationship with God causes you to feel righteous and confident in doing that, particularly on the basis of your personal judgment without documentation, you are operating in an orbit unknown to me. I have no comment on that relationship.
One can deduce that God did not intervene in the publicized priest-child-molestation cases because if he did, the child would not have been molested. To argue that I don't have documentation about God not intervening in such cases is ridiculous. Were such a matter be brought before a court, the court would easily make a finding that the outcome supports the view that God did not intervene and also there is no evidence of God intervening. The fact that there is no documentation either way would make no difference to the finding. Now that is the last reply to any of your posts because I don't like the discourteous way you respond and I'm not wasting my time on such a person.
Given omniscience and omnipotence, how is that possible? Unless it was the plan, in which case the responsibility lies with God.
And the existence of germs and viruses proves natural evolution....unless they are designed by God?
God created the perfect world, he created man with free will, man screwed it all up, God sent Jesus to take on the sins of believers. God knew it was going to happen, as nothing takes Him by surprise. God is not going to make anyone love or accept him. It's not real hard.
It's not 'free will' to be created naive and set up to fail. Where we are told God 'declares the end from the beginning.' The free will defense does not work.
Just some rambling thoughts from the back of the room......
This is no more or no less complicated than the basic struggle between good and evil. God is good, Satan is evil, end of story. And the influences of either are easily seen by anyone with even half a lick of sense. Why anyone would live their lives with an adamant rejection of good is just beyond me.
We spend our lives mistreating ourselves, each other, this planet and all that's in it, and we mistreat our Creator. Not one of us deserves God's grace, yet, with a simple sincere plea for forgiveness, He gives it.
It's a little late to continue to be torn up about the first coming of Christ. Mankind has been given many second chances, and have royally screwed it up each and every time.
The real concern should be the second coming of Christ, because as promised, when that happens, God will take His believers home in one fell swoop, the non-believers will be left to Satan, and this world will cease to exist. Like it or not, since Jesus died on that cross, we are currently living through our one last chance.
Yet it believed that God created satan. Being omniscient and omnipotent, God would know that He was creating evil. And that is what is written in the bible, that God creates evil.
Wow, that's a stretch with context.
God created Lucifer. Lucifer, aka Satan is traditionally understood as an angel who rebelled against God and was cast out of Heaven with other “fallen” angels before the creation of humankind.
"God created Satan as Lucifer, the highest ranking angel of all. Lucifer, however, wasn’t content to worship and serve his Creator. Full of pride, he rebelled, leading a third of the angels. Unable to match the Almighty God, Lucifer was cast to the earth where he has operated as the devil ever since. The biblical passages of Job, Isaiah 14:12-15, Matthew 4:3-10, and Revelation 12:7-12 provide a glimpse of Satan’s history and character."
Read your Bible.......
Read the bible yourself. Include the history and development of its books. For a start, Satan in rebellion against God is Christian theology. Interpreting the serpent in the garden as being Satan is Christian theology. Plus consider the verses which state that God is responsible for evil, that God creates evil, the verses that have been quoted numerous times in several threads.
It would seem that ol' Satan has a pretty tight grip on ya there DBT.
And it appears you're quite content with that......
Well, the satan excuse didn't take long to pop up. Practically right on cue.
It's not about me. What is written in the bible about God creating evil has nothing to do with me. It's right there for anyone to see and read regardless of who points it out or who happens to ignore or dismiss the issue.
God didn't create the perfect world, he knowingly created a world which he knew was going to plunge into widespread sin. No one else had anything to do with this creation but God. And when this world did stuff-up as God knew it would because he designed it so that it would, he then punishes innocent victims (such as the priest-molested children, or those that try as they might, they reach the wrong conclusion about God) for his flawed design of the world! Oh, but I suppose a 9 year old victim of sexual abuse by the priest had free-will...so it was their fault!!!
You seem to be hung up over the issue of abused children, especially by priests; understandably so. I would suggest that you check out the story of Joseph in the Old Testament. I don't want to spoil it for you, but the punch line is "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." You are demanding that God reveal to you the reason behind each and every injustice that you see happening in the world; but we aren't meant to understand the whys and wherefores of everything that happens, we are instructed to trust God. It is sometimes difficult, even for believers, but that's the deal. Way back in the garden of Eden, Satan said we could be like God. It was a lie, but we bought it. And so here we are, all of us, you being but one example, insisting that, as the song says, "the world keep turning our way." It doesn't. And that's a good thing, because we messed it up to begin with and we aren't able to make things right.
All these people who take so much time arguing that God does not exist are actually secret believers in God. How many of you atheists and so call God deniers believe in a tooth fairy? I have no doubt none of you, yet I don't see you posting arguments against it, yet you can't wait to show your hatred for God who you say does not exist. If he doesn't exist why don't you just leave the subject alone. But you can't, can you.
In reality deep down inside you actually know He does exist and it's driving you crazy so in your anger you lash out hoping to persuade yourself and also hoping that other unbelievers can somehow persuade you that God does not exist. You actually are closet believers.
The fact is that God created you with knowledge of Himself, just as He did in all creatures and there's nothing you can do about it, therefore it angers you but in reality you are mad at your ownselves for having these feelings.
Duke, I don't believe that is the case...otherwise the converse is also true i.e. all those people who take so much time arguing that God exists are actually secret disbelievers in God, etc , etc.
It's not one and the same Riflehunter. Believers in God simply proclaim the gospel and only argue that God exists when unbelievers dispute His existence, they don't start threads just to argue that God exists.
Duke, I think the reality is both sides probably have a small degree of uncertainty about whether they are correct, notwithstanding that they say otherwise.
You just gave a pretty good definition of faith there Rifle!
A big portion of my time, when I am confused is not weather God exist...........but where is He. But by faith, I trust. My baby sister talks about a "gap" between people who have lost a child and people who have not. The person who has not suffered such heartbreak can never understand that heartbreak. She finds God in that gap. Similarly, because she has shared that with me, I find God in my "gaps" of understanding. I pray that you find God in your "gaps". Keep asking questions though, just don't lean on your own understanding of the answer or lack thereof.
Invented? Created the possibility of their coming into existence is more accurate. Every thing can be traced backwards to a point of origin. Except God who has always been and who will always be. The human mind being finite fails in its ability to comprehend the eternal which is why belief in God is an article of faith.
Serious question for you that believe in god. Do you think he also “invented” the other trillion or so planets that exist?
God created the heavens and the earth. He created every star, every planet, and every living thing in the cosmos and on the earth.
“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” - Robert Jastrow, ‘God and The Astronomers’
Do you think he also “invented” the other trillion or so planets that exist?
Bereshit.....buh-ray-SHEET ......In a beginning.....often misinterpreted as In the beginning. Very first words in the Bible.
Google that, follow that lead, and you will quickly realize just how small the bubble is that humankind exists in. The creation of our world and the heavens around it, is but one creation out of countless others.
There is no way possible for our brains to absorb all there is to know. So impossible that we are directed to the concept of Faith.
One of my buddies who is a believer is a veterinarian and one of his best friends is a leading hand surgeon in the Sacramento area. He told my friend that he has studied the human hand for over 40 years and there is no way that it is a result of evolution. He said just the human hand is absolute proof of intelligent design. I think pretty much anybody that would look at their own hand right now and make a fist or just move their fingers would agree…
One of my buddies who is a believer is a veterinarian and one of his best friends is a leading hand surgeon in the Sacramento area. He told my friend that he has studied the human hand for over 40 years and there is no way that it is a result of evolution. He said just the human hand is absolute proof of intelligent design. I think pretty much anybody that would look at their own hand right now and make a fist or just move their fingers would agree…
If god did create all the planets then did god also create any aliens who might inhabit them?
Now that's an interesting question. I wonder whether aliens, if they exist, failed God and God sent an alien Jesus to pay for their sins? I hope there aren't alien priests who abused alien children going to alien churches and God also failed to intervene.
The "Gods" of all the "holy books" are quite easily recognized as fantasy by those who have decent critical thinking skills. Those who do believe are just tribal and want to stay with the tribe. They don't believe because there's solid evidence, they believe because their tribe believes and that's what they feel they should do. The "god" of the bible is about as real as Zeus.
Serious question for you that believe in god. Do you think he also “invented” the other trillion or so planets that exist?
Originally Posted by antlers
God created the heavens and the earth. He created every star, every planet, and every living thing in the cosmos and on the earth.
Originally Posted by Snowwolfe
For those who answered my question. If god did create all the planets then did god also create any aliens who might inhabit them?
Originally Posted by antlers
God created the heavens and the earth. He created every star, every planet, and every living thing in the cosmos and on the earth.
Well that must mean he would have created aliens if they exist. I suppose he set them up to fail as well, just like humans did. Now if there are aliens, there's probably lots of aliens on different planets, so I wonder if they have all sinned as well? Imagine millions of alien planets and millions of alien children and millions of alien priests abusing them, and God failing to act in each case? Or perhaps God learnt by his mistakes with earth? What if the alien planets preceded earth?
One of my buddies who is a believer is a veterinarian and one of his best friends is a leading hand surgeon in the Sacramento area. He told my friend that he has studied the human hand for over 40 years and there is no way that it is a result of evolution. He said just the human hand is absolute proof of intelligent design. I think pretty much anybody that would look at their own hand right now and make a fist or just move their fingers would agree…
What’s he say about the panda’s thumb?
Probably assign it to the same intelligent design/designer
One of my buddies who is a believer is a veterinarian and one of his best friends is a leading hand surgeon in the Sacramento area. He told my friend that he has studied the human hand for over 40 years and there is no way that it is a result of evolution. He said just the human hand is absolute proof of intelligent design. I think pretty much anybody that would look at their own hand right now and make a fist or just move their fingers would agree…
What’s he say about the panda’s thumb?
Probably assign it to the same intelligent design/designer
Then I would say your friend of a friend is kind of an idiot.
The "Gods" of all the "holy books" are quite easily recognized as fantasy by those who have decent critical thinking skills. Those who do believe are just tribal and want to stay with the tribe. They don't believe because there's solid evidence, they believe because their tribe believes and that's what they feel they should do. The "god" of the bible is about as real as Zeus.
I believe.
Pretty damn effing lousy at it too, but I still believe.
If there is indeed some kind of deity...I cannot believe He pays any attention or has any effect whatsoever to the affairs of mere mankind. If this God were a loving and kind deity, and if he had any influence over mankind...how could he condone the atrocities of ethnic and political cleansing that has taken place in history? How could he condone the ravages of disease and starvation worldwide? And my personal pet peeve, how could a kind and compassionate deity witness the agony of a pediatric ward, where many of the most innocent literally suffer a hell on earth? Daily. Old testament describes God as vengeful...New Testament describes God as loving, hmm. I guess I'm in the group that might say, if there is a deity, he hasn't given any indication that he cares what happens on this planet.
If there is indeed some kind of deity...I cannot believe He pays any attention or has any effect whatsoever to the affairs of mere mankind. If this God were a loving and kind deity, and if he had any influence over mankind...how could he condone the atrocities of ethnic and political cleansing that has taken place in history? How could he condone the ravages of disease and starvation worldwide? And my personal pet peeve, how could a kind and compassionate deity witness the agony of a pediatric ward, where many of the most innocent literally suffer a hell on earth? Daily. Old testament describes God as vengeful...New Testament describes God as loving, hmm. I guess I'm in the group that might say, if there is a deity, he hasn't given any indication that he cares what happens on this planet.
A little more specific, apparently God gave us free will and we must use that free will to believe and worship him or burn in everlasting hell.
But he also created parasite, bacteria, virus and genetic diseases that can kill an infant (after an insane amount of suffering) before that infant even has the language skills and understanding to make a choice to follow the Christian God or not. So after a brief life of horrible suffering, these babies are then sent to everlasting torment in the fires of hell.
One of my buddies who is a believer is a veterinarian and one of his best friends is a leading hand surgeon in the Sacramento area. He told my friend that he has studied the human hand for over 40 years and there is no way that it is a result of evolution. He said just the human hand is absolute proof of intelligent design. I think pretty much anybody that would look at their own hand right now and make a fist or just move their fingers would agree…
What’s he say about the panda’s thumb?
Probably assign it to the same intelligent design/designer
Then I would say your friend of a friend is kind of an idiot.
Yeah, chief hand surgeon at a major hospital in the capital of California, a real moron lol
If there is indeed some kind of deity...I cannot believe He pays any attention or has any effect whatsoever to the affairs of mere mankind. If this God were a loving and kind deity, and if he had any influence over mankind...how could he condone the atrocities of ethnic and political cleansing that has taken place in history? How could he condone the ravages of disease and starvation worldwide? And my personal pet peeve, how could a kind and compassionate deity witness the agony of a pediatric ward, where many of the most innocent literally suffer a hell on earth? Daily. Old testament describes God as vengeful...New Testament describes God as loving, hmm. I guess I'm in the group that might say, if there is a deity, he hasn't given any indication that he cares what happens on this planet.
A little more specific, apparently God gave us free will and we must use that free will to believe and worship him or burn in everlasting hell.
But he also created parasite, bacteria, virus and genetic diseases that can kill an infant (after an insane amount of suffering) before that infant even has the language skills and understanding to make a choice to follow the Christian God or not. So after a brief life of horrible suffering, these babies are then sent to everlasting torment in the fires of hell.
Yes, but you are all forgetting the huge number of people whose lives have been improved after they have started to believe in God. Just like the huge number of people who take a placebo and believe in it, and their lives improve. And there are a lot of weak people out there who need to believe that there's a fatherly figure up in the sky looking after them, and they need to believe that there is no finality when they die.
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
What region of the country are you from? Just curious.
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
Why, God?
"The first part of this question is based on a false premise. People who express those words are essentially suggesting (or saying outright) that God must meet their own criteria of goodness. But who are they to set standards for God? When did they become the moral center of the universe?"
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
What region of the country are you from? Just curious.
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
Why, God?
"The first part of this question is based on a false premise. People who express those words are essentially suggesting (or saying outright) that God must meet their own criteria of goodness. But who are they to set standards for God? When did they become the moral center of the universe?"
Surely, we are not that hopeless that we can't have a framework of what constitutes goodness and what constitutes badness or what's right and what's wrong. We are not that incapable and submissive.
One of my buddies who is a believer is a veterinarian and one of his best friends is a leading hand surgeon in the Sacramento area. He told my friend that he has studied the human hand for over 40 years and there is no way that it is a result of evolution. He said just the human hand is absolute proof of intelligent design. I think pretty much anybody that would look at their own hand right now and make a fist or just move their fingers would agree…
What’s he say about the panda’s thumb?
Probably assign it to the same intelligent design/designer
Then I would say your friend of a friend is kind of an idiot.
Yeah, chief hand surgeon at a major hospital in the capital of California, a real moron lol
You can always find somebody with some credentials that have some crazy ideas.
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
Why, God?
"The first part of this question is based on a false premise. People who express those words are essentially suggesting (or saying outright) that God must meet their own criteria of goodness. But who are they to set standards for God? When did they become the moral center of the universe?"
Surely, we are not that hopeless that we can't have a framework of what constitutes goodness and what constitutes badness or what's right and what's wrong. We are not that incapable and submissive.
And is good an absolute or is it subjective? To be clear I mean as an idea not circumstantially.
I once knew a woman who's boyfriend was abusing her. I mean serious mental and physical abuse. I asked here why she didn't leave him. She said, "Because he loves me. And I'm also afraid of what he might do to me if I leave."
That is pretty much the relationship Christianity sets up between God and Man.
Fortunately, there is Good News. God doesn't really exist and you can just stop believing and that abusive relationship with your imaginary monster in the sky. I was raised to believe, but when I got older I put away such childish beliefs and have never been happier.
One of my buddies who is a believer is a veterinarian and one of his best friends is a leading hand surgeon in the Sacramento area. He told my friend that he has studied the human hand for over 40 years and there is no way that it is a result of evolution. He said just the human hand is absolute proof of intelligent design. I think pretty much anybody that would look at their own hand right now and make a fist or just move their fingers would agree…
What’s he say about the panda’s thumb?
Probably assign it to the same intelligent design/designer
Then I would say your friend of a friend is kind of an idiot.
Yeah, chief hand surgeon at a major hospital in the capital of California, a real moron lol
You can always find somebody with some credentials that have some crazy ideas.
Ok so lets forget the doc. Look at your hand as it moves or your feet, knee or pretty much any part of your body. Now open a book and check out how a digestive system or reproductive system works, lungs that take in oxygen and deliver it to the blood so it can travel to the muscles, brain and every part of the body. Vision, hearing, taste, smell and I could go on and on. So I'll ask you is there a design? Seriously, IS THERE A DESIGN? Answer that one question and we can talk.
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
Why, God?
"The first part of this question is based on a false premise. People who express those words are essentially suggesting (or saying outright) that God must meet their own criteria of goodness. But who are they to set standards for God? When did they become the moral center of the universe?"
Surely, we are not that hopeless that we can't have a framework of what constitutes goodness and what constitutes badness or what's right and what's wrong. We are not that incapable and submissive.
And is good an absolute or is it subjective? To be clear I mean as an idea not circumstantially.
Not quite sure on that one. I do think that a society can learn and over time establish a set of values, perhaps those values need to be "tweaked" occasionally. I certainly don't think that we should adopt an attitude that we are incapable of developing a framework of what's right and wrong...even if we have to draw on some principles laid down in the Bible to do that.
Pain and suffering and injustice in the world is an emotional and powerful and moving argument, especially, when you hear people make it based upon their own personal experience. I get it. I understand...the best I can...the emotions and the questions in light of the awfulness of their circumstances.
Pain and suffering and injustice in the world has been a problem for many in having and/or maintaining faith in God. Many people have stepped back from God because of their inability to reconcile a good and loving God with the pain and suffering and injustice in the world.
Some people leverage their own pain and suffering and injustice in the world to argue against the existence of a good and loving God. Again, I get it ~ I understand...the best I can...the emotions and the questions in light of the awfulness of their circumstances. But some people commandeer other people’s pain and suffering and injustice to build their own case against a good and loving God. Even though pain and suffering and injustice in the world...for many people...actually ends up being a path which leads to God. Extraordinary pain and suffering and injustice in the world often leads to extraordinary trust and confidence in God.
If anyone had a reason to stop believing in a good and loving God because of pain and suffering and injustice in the world, it was Jesus. And His early followers were treated incredibly unjustly…they were persecuted for believing something, many were tortured and killed…and yet they embraced God. For those who struggle with a good and loving God based upon the pain and suffering and injustice in the world, especially those who commandeer other people’s pain and suffering and injustice to build their own case against a good and loving God, realize the men and women who bring us the story of Jesus saw pain and suffering that most of us can’t imagine, and many of them experienced pain and suffering that most of us can’t imagine, and yet they embraced God. And Jesus knows firsthand about pain and suffering and injustice in the world by coming here in the flesh and being on the receiving end of it Himself.
When sin entered the world, it held the door open for sorrow, death, illness, despair, and every other awful thing. They snuck in right behind sin. And sin wreaks havoc in the world. Pain and suffering and injustice in the world are part of the global consequences of sin in the world. That is the brutal fact. The presence of sin in the world is why these things happen. It’s not fair, and it takes things out of our control. I understand why you, or anybody else struggles with it. I struggle with it. But there it is.
One of my buddies who is a believer is a veterinarian and one of his best friends is a leading hand surgeon in the Sacramento area. He told my friend that he has studied the human hand for over 40 years and there is no way that it is a result of evolution. He said just the human hand is absolute proof of intelligent design. I think pretty much anybody that would look at their own hand right now and make a fist or just move their fingers would agree…
What’s he say about the panda’s thumb?
Probably assign it to the same intelligent design/designer
Then I would say your friend of a friend is kind of an idiot.
Yeah, chief hand surgeon at a major hospital in the capital of California, a real moron lol
You can always find somebody with some credentials that have some crazy ideas.
Ok so lets forget the doc. Look at your hand as it moves or your feet, knee or pretty much any part of your body. Now open a book and check out how a digestive system or reproductive system works, lungs that take in oxygen and deliver it to the blood so it can travel to the muscles, brain and every part of the body. Vision, hearing, taste, smell and I could go on and on. So I'll ask you is there a design? Seriously, IS THERE A DESIGN? Answer that one question and we can talk.
Don, I don't think you can look at a hand and foot and say there was definitely a design. You might look at it and say that it is so complex and draw an inference that it must have been designed. But we must also determine whether there is evidence with archaeology of a gradual refining of the complexity of the hand and foot. If there is, we must determine if there is a theory for that gradual refining. We then try to disprove that theory of the gradual refining, if we can.
One of my buddies who is a believer is a veterinarian and one of his best friends is a leading hand surgeon in the Sacramento area. He told my friend that he has studied the human hand for over 40 years and there is no way that it is a result of evolution. He said just the human hand is absolute proof of intelligent design. I think pretty much anybody that would look at their own hand right now and make a fist or just move their fingers would agree…
What’s he say about the panda’s thumb?
Probably assign it to the same intelligent design/designer
Then I would say your friend of a friend is kind of an idiot.
Yeah, chief hand surgeon at a major hospital in the capital of California, a real moron lol
You can always find somebody with some credentials that have some crazy ideas.
Ok so lets forget the doc. Look at your hand as it moves or your feet, knee or pretty much any part of your body. Now open a book and check out how a digestive system or reproductive system works, lungs that take in oxygen and deliver it to the blood so it can travel to the muscles, brain and every part of the body. Vision, hearing, taste, smell and I could go on and on. So I'll ask you is there a design? Seriously, IS THERE A DESIGN? Answer that one question and we can talk.
The nerve that controls your larynx goes all the way down to your heart and then back up to your neck. Does the same in a Giraffe. Inexplicable if it was "intelligently" designed. But evolution explains it as modification from previous creatures where that made sense.
Humans teeth are typically too big for their jaws. This is why so many people have crooked teeth, get braces and have their wisdom teeth pulled out. Inexplicable if it was "intelligently" designed. But it is explained by evolution that when the genes that controlled our jaw size and our teeth size are different and they didn't quite evolve perfectly together when our jaw size diminished.
Humans have poor sinus drainage. That is why we always get so stuffed up when we have a cold. Animals with snouts don't have this problem, their sinus cavities drain just fine. Bad design for Humans. But this is explained by evolution that when we (or our ancestors) lost our snouts the sinuses repositioned themselves, but didn't really reconfigure themselves, in a way where they would drain well. If this was designed, it certainly wasn't from an "intelligent" designer.
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
Why, God?
"The first part of this question is based on a false premise. People who express those words are essentially suggesting (or saying outright) that God must meet their own criteria of goodness. But who are they to set standards for God? When did they become the moral center of the universe?"
Surely, we are not that hopeless that we can't have a framework of what constitutes goodness and what constitutes badness or what's right and what's wrong. We are not that incapable and submissive.
[/quote] Surely, we are not that hopeless that we can't have a framework of what constitutes goodness and what constitutes badness or what's right and what's wrong. We are not that incapable and submissive.[/quote]
RH like it or not. Our framework for good and bad, right and wrong has been for centuries the 10 commandments, so widely accepted that they became the basis of our Judeo-Christian legal system here in America. You also have Jesus' reply when someone asked Him what is the greatest commandment, His answer "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. ' This is the greatest and first commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
It's just like I tell my grandkids "it's simple but it's hard" If we could just love God and love our neighbor there would be no evil in this world other than satan and his minions and they will be taken care of in short order when the time comes.
It's hard for us and even impossible to follow these commands perfectly because of our sinful nature. God says " The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it" Jeremiah 1:9 But we were not created that way, only after Adam and Eve were beguiled by the devil did sin enter the human race. Because our hearts are wicked and God granted us free will this is the reason people do bad (very bad) things to other people and that's exactly why God had to make a way for us to be renewed (Born Again) reconciled, cleansed, our minds renewed. This is done by acknowledging our sin, repentance, and accepting Jesus' substitutionary payment for our sins on the cross.
Let me add that God does not take lightly evil things done to people especially kids, Matt 18, "but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
What region of the country are you from? Just curious.
West
Absolutely no disrespect intended, but there seems to be a trend. Regional differences in social norms and traditions are very real.
One of my buddies who is a believer is a veterinarian and one of his best friends is a leading hand surgeon in the Sacramento area. He told my friend that he has studied the human hand for over 40 years and there is no way that it is a result of evolution. He said just the human hand is absolute proof of intelligent design. I think pretty much anybody that would look at their own hand right now and make a fist or just move their fingers would agree…
What’s he say about the panda’s thumb?
Probably assign it to the same intelligent design/designer
Then I would say your friend of a friend is kind of an idiot.
Yeah, chief hand surgeon at a major hospital in the capital of California, a real moron lol
You can always find somebody with some credentials that have some crazy ideas.
Ok so lets forget the doc. Look at your hand as it moves or your feet, knee or pretty much any part of your body. Now open a book and check out how a digestive system or reproductive system works, lungs that take in oxygen and deliver it to the blood so it can travel to the muscles, brain and every part of the body. Vision, hearing, taste, smell and I could go on and on. So I'll ask you is there a design? Seriously, IS THERE A DESIGN? Answer that one question and we can talk.
The nerve that controls your larynx goes all the way down to your heart and then back up to your neck. Does the same in a Giraffe. Inexplicable if it was "intelligently" designed. But evolution explains it as modification from previous creatures where that made sense.
Humans teeth are typically too big for their jaws. This is why so many people have crooked teeth, get braces and have their wisdom teeth pulled out. Inexplicable if it was "intelligently" designed. But it is explained by evolution that when the genes that controlled our jaw size and our teeth size are different and they didn't quite evolve perfectly together when our jaw size diminished.
Humans have poor sinus drainage. That is why we always get so stuffed up when we have a cold. Animals with snouts don't have this problem, their sinus cavities drain just fine. Bad design for Humans. But this is explained by evolution that when we (or our ancestors) lost our snouts the sinuses repositioned themselves, but didn't really reconfigure themselves, in a way where they would drain well. If this was designed, it certainly wasn't from an "intelligent" designer.
We have a brain, and hopefully some deductive reasoning power, and hopefully were raised in some kind of structured environment that gave us some basic instinct of right/wrong, good/bad. For the sake of the discussion, let's call that instinct human morality. If we see a completely innocent child suffering, innocent people starved, enslaved, beaten, murdered...can we not hold your deity to our standard of human morality? Can we not question anything? Why are we equipped with a brain? Do we owe total obedience to this deity, never questioning right/wrong, good, bad?
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
Why, God?
"The first part of this question is based on a false premise. People who express those words are essentially suggesting (or saying outright) that God must meet their own criteria of goodness. But who are they to set standards for God? When did they become the moral center of the universe?"
Surely, we are not that hopeless that we can't have a framework of what constitutes goodness and what constitutes badness or what's right and what's wrong. We are not that incapable and submissive.
So, you're the moral center of the universe?
I'm happy to at least give my input as to what I believe is moral and what I believe isn't. But you can look to the Bible and then contemplate whether the moral principle that you are looking at in the Bible needs to be "tweaked". For example, "love thy neighbor", that of course needs to we tweaked, it certainly doesn't mean that you therefore flood the country with all the garbage from other countries. Another example is "thou shall not kill". That needs to be tweaked a little because serious criminals and habitual criminals should get the death penalty.
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
Why, God?
"The first part of this question is based on a false premise. People who express those words are essentially suggesting (or saying outright) that God must meet their own criteria of goodness. But who are they to set standards for God? When did they become the moral center of the universe?"
Surely, we are not that hopeless that we can't have a framework of what constitutes goodness and what constitutes badness or what's right and what's wrong. We are not that incapable and submissive.
So, you're the moral center of the universe?
I'm happy to at least give my input as to what I believe is moral and what I believe isn't. But you can look to the Bible and then contemplate whether the moral principle that you are looking at in the Bible needs to be "tweaked". For example, "love thy neighbor", that of course needs to we tweaked, it certainly doesn't mean that you therefore flood the country with all the garbage from other countries. Another example is "thou shall not kill". That needs to be tweaked a little because serious criminals and habitual criminals should get the death penalty.
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
Why, God?
"The first part of this question is based on a false premise. People who express those words are essentially suggesting (or saying outright) that God must meet their own criteria of goodness. But who are they to set standards for God? When did they become the moral center of the universe?"
Surely, we are not that hopeless that we can't have a framework of what constitutes goodness and what constitutes badness or what's right and what's wrong. We are not that incapable and submissive.
So, you're the moral center of the universe?
I'm happy to at least give my input as to what I believe is moral and what I believe isn't. But you can look to the Bible and then contemplate whether the moral principle that you are looking at in the Bible needs to be "tweaked". For example, "love thy neighbor", that of course needs to we tweaked, it certainly doesn't mean that you therefore flood the country with all the garbage from other countries. Another example is "thou shall not kill". That needs to be tweaked a little because serious criminals and habitual criminals should get the death penalty.
That's not what I asked....
You were given a good answer to your question. It may not be either of the two answers you wanted (yes or no), but to answer yes or no would just be falling into the trap you set in your attempt to score a "victory".
Why don't people live happy with what they believe and STFU?
I swear, this thread is like a Vegan/Lesbian conversion session.
There's probably hundreds of threads on the fire that you are knowledgeable and passionate about and yet you come here to this thread that you obviously don't care about and then voice your opinion against this thread...SMH
I didn't voice my opinion against this thread, only against stupid people that apparently lack reading comprehension.
And yet the first words from the mouth of any parent here in a quiet moment if their child was very sick would begin with Please God.
And when the child dies, "Why, God?" then after they tell all their friends who are trying to decide whether to believe or not, the friends think "Why God?
Why, God?
"The first part of this question is based on a false premise. People who express those words are essentially suggesting (or saying outright) that God must meet their own criteria of goodness. But who are they to set standards for God? When did they become the moral center of the universe?"
Surely, we are not that hopeless that we can't have a framework of what constitutes goodness and what constitutes badness or what's right and what's wrong. We are not that incapable and submissive.
So, you're the moral center of the universe?
I'm happy to at least give my input as to what I believe is moral and what I believe isn't. But you can look to the Bible and then contemplate whether the moral principle that you are looking at in the Bible needs to be "tweaked". For example, "love thy neighbor", that of course needs to we tweaked, it certainly doesn't mean that you therefore flood the country with all the garbage from other countries. Another example is "thou shall not kill". That needs to be tweaked a little because serious criminals and habitual criminals should get the death penalty.
That's not what I asked....
You were given a good answer to your question. It may not be either of the two answers you wanted (yes or no), but to answer yes or no would just be falling into the trap you set in your attempt to score a "victory".
I'm not the one here trying to "score a victory", ESPECIALLY one over God.......
You have zero humility. You know better than God Himself the moral absolutes of mankind, as if you're better than God. You know better than God Himself what the 10 Commandments should be, as if you're smarter than God.
SMH.
Ya know, I'm not perfect, not even close. I'll never be. All I'll ever be is a rotten unworthy sinner in need of forgiveness....and I'm walking a very thin line here between judging and not judging another.
But, I've done a pretty good job throughout my life keeping as much distance as i possibly can between myself and people like you.
The only thing I can do, and I'm not sure I'm even willing to try, is hope someday you open your eyes to the Truth.
Why don't people live happy with what they believe and STFU?
I swear, this thread is like a Vegan/Lesbian conversion session.
There's probably hundreds of threads on the fire that you are knowledgeable and passionate about and yet you come here to this thread that you obviously don't care about and then voice your opinion against this thread...SMH
I didn't voice my opinion against this thread, only against stupid people that apparently lack reading comprehension.
Are you able to demonstrate that you're not a stupid person? What do you believe or not believe?
That's not what I asked....[/quote] You were given a good answer to your question. It may not be either of the two answers you wanted (yes or no), but to answer yes or no would just be falling into the trap you set in your attempt to score a "victory".[/quote]
I'm not the one here trying to "score a victory", ESPECIALLY one over God.......
You have zero humility. You know better than God Himself the moral absolutes of mankind, as if you're better than God. You know better than God Himself what the 10 Commandments should be, as if you're smarter than God.
SMH.
Ya know, I'm not perfect, not even close. I'll never be. All I'll ever be is a rotten unworthy sinner in need of forgiveness....and I'm walking a very thin line here between judging and not judging another.
But, I've done a pretty good job throughout my life keeping as much distance as i possibly can between myself and people like you.
The only thing I can do, and I'm not sure I'm even willing to try, is hope someday you open your eyes to the Truth.[/quote] See that's why you didn't get the answer you wanted...I knew that you were wanting to have a meltdown such as is evidenced by what you just said. I agree that you're "a rotten unworthy sinner" because you are failing to love thy neighbor (Riflehunter).
One of my buddies who is a believer is a veterinarian and one of his best friends is a leading hand surgeon in the Sacramento area. He told my friend that he has studied the human hand for over 40 years and there is no way that it is a result of evolution. He said just the human hand is absolute proof of intelligent design. I think pretty much anybody that would look at their own hand right now and make a fist or just move their fingers would agree…
What’s he say about the panda’s thumb?
Probably assign it to the same intelligent design/designer
Then I would say your friend of a friend is kind of an idiot.
Yeah, chief hand surgeon at a major hospital in the capital of California, a real moron lol
You can always find somebody with some credentials that have some crazy ideas.
Ok so lets forget the doc. Look at your hand as it moves or your feet, knee or pretty much any part of your body. Now open a book and check out how a digestive system or reproductive system works, lungs that take in oxygen and deliver it to the blood so it can travel to the muscles, brain and every part of the body. Vision, hearing, taste, smell and I could go on and on. So I'll ask you is there a design? Seriously, IS THERE A DESIGN? Answer that one question and we can talk.
Don, I don't think you can look at a hand and foot and say there was definitely a design. You might look at it and say that it is so complex and draw an inference that it must have been designed. But we must also determine whether there is evidence with archaeology of a gradual refining of the complexity of the hand and foot. If there is, we must determine if there is a theory for that gradual refining. We then try to disprove that theory of the gradual refining, if we can.
If you look at the hands, paws, feet, legs and arms of mammals, even the wings of bats and fins of whales. There is a very similar bone structure there. Its almost as if there was an original version and then that was modified as each species developed. And if one looks at the fossil record, it is exactly what looks like happened.
It seems like a really strange design for an omnipotent God use the same basic bone structure for the hand of man as he did for the pectoral fins of a whale and the wing of a bat. Or for the leg of a horse to have bone so similar to the bones of a human foot. The all serve different functions or function in different ways, yet the bones are basically the same.
One of my buddies who is a believer is a veterinarian and one of his best friends is a leading hand surgeon in the Sacramento area. He told my friend that he has studied the human hand for over 40 years and there is no way that it is a result of evolution. He said just the human hand is absolute proof of intelligent design. I think pretty much anybody that would look at their own hand right now and make a fist or just move their fingers would agree…
What’s he say about the panda’s thumb?
Probably assign it to the same intelligent design/designer
Then I would say your friend of a friend is kind of an idiot.
Yeah, chief hand surgeon at a major hospital in the capital of California, a real moron lol
You can always find somebody with some credentials that have some crazy ideas.
Ok so lets forget the doc. Look at your hand as it moves or your feet, knee or pretty much any part of your body. Now open a book and check out how a digestive system or reproductive system works, lungs that take in oxygen and deliver it to the blood so it can travel to the muscles, brain and every part of the body. Vision, hearing, taste, smell and I could go on and on. So I'll ask you is there a design? Seriously, IS THERE A DESIGN? Answer that one question and we can talk.
All through my posts I mentioned the non-intervention of God in priest child-molestation cases, so once again, you seem to be on a different wavelength to me. The multitude of priest child-molestation is well-known, appearing on the media, court cases etc. For you to argue that maybe God did intervene in these cases but I don't know about it is absurd. One can recognize the position of a higher authority but still be critical about some of the things that higher authority does...that is not an unreasonable stance. I do think when I reach the gates of Heaven, God will call out my name, open the gate and say "Riflehunter, well done my brave crusader!"
You still have a comprehension problem. I did not argue that "maybe God did intervene". Rather, I asked how YOU know what God did or did not do. That is focus on your behavior/assumptions/expectations/judgments of God. You state that God's behavior is disgusting and rant about God not acting according to your expectations or demands. If your relationship with God causes you to feel righteous and confident in doing that, particularly on the basis of your personal judgment without documentation, you are operating in an orbit unknown to me. I have no comment on that relationship.
One can deduce that God did not intervene in the publicized priest-child-molestation cases because if he did, the child would not have been molested. To argue that I don't have documentation about God not intervening in such cases is ridiculous. Were such a matter be brought before a court, the court would easily make a finding that the outcome supports the view that God did not intervene and also there is no evidence of God intervening. The fact that there is no documentation either way would make no difference to the finding. Now that is the last reply to any of your posts because I don't like the discourteous way you respond and I'm not wasting my time on such a person.
Has that sexual abuse by priests been exposed, addressed and condemned - at least to a major extent? Why? What role has God played in those actions? If you think God played no role, please explain why not and how not. The act of ignoring and trying to discount the free will and concomitant sinning of mankind does not permit one to live in a limited mind bubble.
You were given a good answer to your question. It may not be either of the two answers you wanted (yes or no), but to answer yes or no would just be falling into the trap you set in your attempt to score a "victory".[/quote]
I'm not the one here trying to "score a victory", ESPECIALLY one over God.......
You have zero humility. You know better than God Himself the moral absolutes of mankind, as if you're better than God. You know better than God Himself what the 10 Commandments should be, as if you're smarter than God.
SMH.
Ya know, I'm not perfect, not even close. I'll never be. All I'll ever be is a rotten unworthy sinner in need of forgiveness....and I'm walking a very thin line here between judging and not judging another.
But, I've done a pretty good job throughout my life keeping as much distance as i possibly can between myself and people like you.
The only thing I can do, and I'm not sure I'm even willing to try, is hope someday you open your eyes to the Truth.[/quote] See that's why you didn't get the answer you wanted...I knew that you were wanting to have a meltdown such as is evidenced by what you just said. I agree that you're "a rotten unworthy sinner" because you are failing to love thy neighbor (Riflehunter).[/quote]
Took me a minute to sort out your muddled response here. May I suggest the preview function and then proof read?
I mean, the Enlightened Ones, such as yourself can't afford to look stupid now can you.
So, Love Thy Neighbor means i'm obligated to coddle you and hug you and change my beliefs to suit yours because you insist on maintaining your ignorance?
Lololol.....
Rhetorical question, I don't need you to answer.
No melt down friend, I just reject your presence. I reject my ex-wife's presence too, and all communists/marxists/etc, ., you're in good like company. Atheists of a feather do infact flock together.
It has been asked before in these "do you believe in god" threads, which one? With the myriad of cultures now and thru time, how many gods are, have there been? I believe in something bigger than myself, just don't have a name for it, of course a good christian would tell me "seek, and ye shall find". Im the other side of 70 now, if I havent had the gumption at this juncture to do any seeking, I imagine Im plumb out of seek. Im human; Ive wronged people and tried to make right. Ive done harm and Ive done good, I try to be a good father, husband and friend, but know at times Ive failed, but keep trying to walk right. If the presumed christian judgement day indeed materializes and Im doomed to the lake of fire, so be it, I most likely wouldn't recognize many faces behind the pearly gates anyway?
Leave it to men to mess up the best thing that we've ever been offered ~ God's gift of salvation, and the opportunity to walk through this life with Him, and to spend eternity in His presence. Leave it to men to muck it up, and make it much more complicated than it really is. And leave it to men to make it dependent upon something other than it really is.
Leave it to men to mess up the best thing that we've ever been offered ~ God's gift of salvation, and the opportunity to walk through this life with Him, and to spend eternity in His presence. Leave it to men to muck it up, and make it much more complicated than it really is. And leave it to men to make it dependent upon something other than it really is.
While I agree in principle...you sure seem to like to argue and bow up about it.
It has been asked before in these "do you believe in god" threads, which one? With the myriad of cultures now and thru time, how many gods are, have there been? I believe in something bigger than myself, just don't have a name for it, of course a good christian would tell me "seek, and ye shall find". Im the other side of 70 now, if I havent had the gumption at this juncture to do any seeking, I imagine Im plumb out of seek. Im human; Ive wronged people and tried to make right. Ive done harm and Ive done good, I try to be a good father, husband and friend, but know at times Ive failed, but keep trying to walk right. If the presumed christian judgement day indeed materializes and Im doomed to the lake of fire, so be it, I most likely wouldn't recognize many faces behind the pearly gates anyway?
JefeMojado, Just when you get up there, because you are a good person and I think you should go there, look for someone caping out a Desert Bighorn ram, it will be me (Riflehunter) and I'll put a good word in for you with God. I'll be on the upper level of Heaven where all the privileged saved ones go...not the lower level that the sheep go to.
Leave it to men to mess up the best thing that we've ever been offered ~ God's gift of salvation, and the opportunity to walk through this life with Him, and to spend eternity in His presence. Leave it to men to muck it up, and make it much more complicated than it really is. And leave it to men to make it dependent upon something other than it really is.
While I agree in principle...you sure seem to like to argue and bow up about it.
Leave it to men to mess up the best thing that we've ever been offered ~ God's gift of salvation, and the opportunity to walk through this life with Him, and to spend eternity in His presence. Leave it to men to muck it up, and make it much more complicated than it really is. And leave it to men to make it dependent upon something other than it really is.
While I agree in principle...you sure seem to like to argue and bow up about it.
It’s all a matter of perspective.
Antlers, you'd get totally sick of spending all your time when you're in Heaven in the presence of God, and to tell you the truth, He'd get bored to tears with you hanging around him all the time. You should go hunting when you're up there, like I'm going to do.
Leave it to men to mess up the best thing that we've ever been offered ~ God's gift of salvation, and the opportunity to walk through this life with Him, and to spend eternity in His presence. Leave it to men to muck it up, and make it much more complicated than it really is. And leave it to men to make it dependent upon something other than it really is.
While I agree in principle...you sure seem to like to argue and bow up about it.
It’s all a matter of perspective.
I just don't understand why you guys argue the details so fervently.
H.G. Wells points out in An Outline of History how the concept of God first appeared. Not surprisingly, like today it sprang from a sense of original sin. "The Gods must be angry" was the emotion when tragedy or disaster struck. The first holy act of contrition to absolve those sins was the first human sacrifice. In typical human fashion, thinking God a bigger version of himself, the chosen victim was the most select, beautiful virgin. Religion digressed from thereon with utmost arrogance and violence, always cloaked in translucent humility. And so the blood flows in Gaza today with the hearty approval of Christians in supine worship of God's chosen tribe of Moloch. For it is written.....
Leave it to men to mess up the best thing that we've ever been offered ~ God's gift of salvation, and the opportunity to walk through this life with Him, and to spend eternity in His presence. Leave it to men to muck it up, and make it much more complicated than it really is. And leave it to men to make it dependent upon something other than it really is.
While I agree in principle...you sure seem to like to argue and bow up about it.
It’s all a matter of perspective.
I just don't understand why you guys argue the details so fervently.
Is God a stickler for the minutiae?
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved". Mat 5:18 God is a stickler for details
I just don't understand why you guys argue the details so fervently.
Again, it’s all a matter of perspective. One might see rose bushes as having thorns (and complain about it), while another might see thorn bushes as having roses (and rejoice about it).
Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad
Is God a stickler for the minutiae?
No. He’s a stickler for you, and me, and ALL of us. And He created us so that we could share in His love, grace and goodness through our personal relationship with Him. No need for ANY mediators.
H.G. Wells points out in An Outline of History how the concept of God first appeared. Not surprisingly, like today it sprang from a sense of original sin. "The Gods must be angry" was the emotion when tragedy or disaster struck. The first holy act of contrition to absolve those sins was the first human sacrifice. In typical human fashion, thinking God a bigger version of himself, the chosen victim was the most select, beautiful virgin. Religion digressed from thereon with utmost arrogance and violence, always cloaked in translucent humility. And so the blood flows in Gaza today with the hearty approval of Christians in supine worship of God's chosen tribe of Moloch. For it is written.....
The first evidence of human religious practices were Neanderthal ceremonial burials about 100K years ago.
Religion typically encompasses some exchange of value between humans and forces beyond their control, be it nature or gods. Although this exchange evolved to include human sacrifice, it's unlikely that's where it began.
Some people are just confused, thinking we are humans going through a temporary spiritual experience, when we are actually spiritual beings going through a temporary human experience…
Some people are just confused, thinking we are humans going through a temporary spiritual experience, when we are actually spiritual beings going through a temporary human experience…
I see it that way too. We don’t ‘have’ a soul. We ‘are’ a soul. And we presently have a body.
Some people are just confused, thinking we are humans going through a temporary spiritual experience, when we are actually spiritual beings going through a temporary human experience…
agreed and I don't feel a need to argue if I'am right and someone else is wrong. Iam instructed to do onto others as I would have done on to myself. I kinda see that as one's life's work in this realm.
Some people are just confused, thinking we are humans going through a temporary spiritual experience, when we are actually spiritual beings going through a temporary human experience…
I see it that way too. We don’t ‘have’ a soul. We ‘are’ a soul. And we presently have a body.
That's so true, Feral American for example is a hillbilly R-soul. He criticizes those on this thread who have different views to him including myself and our Australian friends but is too spineless to criticize God when God does the wrong thing (in case he doesn't get to go to Heaven).
Some people are just confused, thinking we are humans going through a temporary spiritual experience, when we are actually spiritual beings going through a temporary human experience…
I see it that way too. We don’t ‘have’ a soul. We ‘are’ a soul. And we presently have a body.
That's so true, Feral American for example is a hillbilly R-soul. He criticizes those on this thread who have different views to him including myself and our Australian friends but is too spineless to criticize God when God does the wrong thing (in case he doesn't get to go to Heaven).
Wha !! In addition to your self-proclaimed authority to command God, you also have friends in Australia?
"our friends"....we do have a friendship with Australia. Wasn't commanding God, just requesting him to change. I hope you don't think God is going to want weak, spineless, groveling types such as you in Heaven. He's going to want men with courage, who see wrongs being committed and speak out against it. Your type will be turned away at the gates. I will offer Him my services in helping Him select who gets in and who doesn't. And Antlers was right, you also are an R-soul. As I said before, and I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't wish to respond to your posts...because you don't seem very intelligent. Perhaps there is someone you know who has a higher IQ than you that can speak on your behalf?
Those who actually accept God’s invitation to participate in the New Covenant that Jesus established don’t look to circumstances to determine where they stand with God. Jesus’ earliest followers are clear examples of this. They didn’t look to circumstances to determine whether or not God loved them, whether or not God was with them, or whether or not God cared about them and their journey in this life.
They looked to a single event that took place on a hill outside the walls of Jerusalem.
That’s where they looked, where God sent His son to pay for all of your sin and all of my sin and all of all of our sins. And that was His way of saying that He has removed every obstacle between us and Him, so we can have fellowship and a personal relationship with Him.
And He can hear your prayers, and He can intervene if He chooses to, and He can comfort if that’s what He chooses to do. But you are in a right relationship with God. And you never, ever, ever, ever, ever have to wonder if God loves you or is with you.
God can work incredible good out of unspeakable tragedies...that doesn't mean He orchestrates the tragedies. The presence of sin in the world is why these things happen. It’s not fair. I understand why anyone would struggle with it. I struggle with it.
Maybe the only thing worse than disappointment with God in these circumstances is trying to navigate that disappointment without God. Maybe the only thing worse than disappointment with God in these circumstances…and really it’s because God's not acting the way we think God should act…is trying to navigate that disappointment once you've put God in the rear view mirror.
Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist.” But God chose not to intervene when John the Baptist was imprisoned underground in a dark and dank cell for up to two years before being executed.
Should we judge Gods presence, love, and faithfulness by our circumstances…?
We can both wrestle with honest questions ‘and’ embrace a genuine faith in God. God understands our pain. He welcomes our questions, and I am convinced that God would rather have us yell at Him than walk away from Him. When we hit the crisis of belief, we shouldn’t deny our doubts. But don’t run from God. We can let our doubts drive us to continue to embrace, even when we wrestle with God.
"our friends"....we do have a friendship with Australia. Wasn't commanding God, just requesting him to change. I hope you don't think God is going to want weak, spineless, groveling types such as you in Heaven. He's going to want men with courage, who see wrongs being committed and speak out against it. Your type will be turned away at the gates. I will offer Him my services in helping Him select who gets in and who doesn't. And Antlers was right, you also are an R-soul. As I said before, and I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't wish to respond to your posts...because you don't seem very intelligent. Perhaps there is someone you know who has a higher IQ than you that can speak on your behalf?
You certainly have posted a lot here in efforts to establish yourself as the expert and chief critic of God's "wrongs". In one of those you said "There's a subtle difference between telling God how to behave, and calling him out - - - ", but you grossly avoid any subtlety in your attacks, citing God as "disgusting". Please let us know when God chooses to acknowledge your lofty critiques and behave as you direct.
Beyond that, observe the asinine humor in your assumed ability to determine, criticize and condemn "types" of humans even though you know nothing about them - apparently a supreme superiority complex at work. For you to assume that some person would have even a hint of "feeling" response to your rants also reeks of delusional grandiosity. You have yet to engender a single feeler activity.
You keep repeating that you "don't wish to respond", but you do so again, and again. Is that simply due to an extreme lack of self control, or an extreme obsession? Maybe you would be happier and less frustrated by God's inattention if you were to to treat yourself better than that - do as you wish rather than engage in personal indignity.
Some of you people need to realize that God does change and is capable of changing. Witness the change in God from a hot-headed vindictive God always seeking retribution as written in the Old Testament to the more caring, calmer, less-intervening God as written about in the New Testament. I really think God needs to be about in the middle of the two extremes. But there are clearly other things He needs to address. For example, this nonsense where you can be a complete scumbag all your life and then at the last moment repent just before you die and then go to Heaven is NOT on. Also, he needs to change His policy with little children who die before they have a chance to accept God into their lives. Also good, high quality people who have spent lots of time trying their hardest to believe in God, but their brain tells them there is insufficient evidence at this stage in their lives to believe in God. These people should also be going to Heaven. God also needs to change His policy on intervention. He intervened a lot at one point in time as evidence in the Bible, but now he tends not to intervene much. If he dwelled in the middle-ground as I suggest, then he could intervene in such situations as Priests molesting young innocent children and stop that from happening and intervene more so that criminals and non-convicted scumbags have very short lives. That way, by altering the balance, he still gets the same number of people who lose their lives, but it's a greater proportion of lowlifes, rather than innocent good people. The more the weak, spineless, groveling types (some of which are on this thread) condone God's current behavior, the less likely He is to change. These weak, spineless, groveling types are actually contributing to the problem.
If anyone didn't notice, we have arrogance personified!
The Word of God is always written by the hand of others, the books of the Bible being the most obvious example.
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly thy brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. "
Some of you people need to realize that God does change and is capable of changing. Witness the change in God from a hot-headed vindictive God always seeking retribution as written in the Old Testament to the more caring, calmer, less-intervening God as written about in the New Testament.
Some of you people need to realize that God does change and is capable of changing. Witness the change in God from a hot-headed vindictive God always seeking retribution as written in the Old Testament to the more caring, calmer, less-intervening God as written about in the New Testament.
God didn't change. The covenants changed.
Antlers, you've been doing so well identifying some of the people on this thread as are-souls. Don't spoil it now by being wrong about God not changing from the Old Testament to the New.
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly thy brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. "
I think you haven't kept up with a new testament. God says that when Jesus returns he will deal out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel of the Jesus Christ and those who do not God know God with flaming fire. Does that sound any different to the Old testament God?
You're bigbillybadass enough to go on for days on end telling God A'mighty what to do, but little ol'me can trigger your irrational emotions and scar your fragile feelings with mere words typed on an anonymous internet forum.
I think you haven't kept up with a new testament. God says that when Jesus returns he will deal out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel of the Jesus Christ and those who do not God know God with flaming fire. Does that sound any different to the Old testament God?
I must admit it is a bit confusing. I think in the Old Testament He actually did do many of the vengeful things, but in the New Testament He doesn't seem to actually carry those vengeful things out as much. Plus, most people seem to believe He did become more of a loving, caring God. Possibly the death of His Son, mellowed him a little? I am sure others on this thread have gone into this in great detail. I'm happy to hear from them.
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly thy brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. "
You're bigbillybadass enough to go on for days on end telling God A'mighty what to do, but little ol'me can trigger your irrational emotions and scar your fragile feelings with mere words typed on an anonymous internet forum.
I think you're just a retard.......
And you would be the perfect person to identify in-bred retards wouldn't you? Coming of course from an area where they are abundant. Please don't tell your girlfriend sister what I said.
Never understood why a bunch of dudes wrote the Bible. If there was a god why didn’t he have it written and just pass them out?
You know Snowwolfe, a lot more dudes than you think wrote scrolls and books for the Bible. Then a group of men decided which books or scrolls they wanted in the Bible, and which they didn't. The ones that for example, didn't mention Heaven were excluded. And I suppose the one's that said you've got to blindly follow everything written in the Bible, were ones that were kept (I assume). The one's that were kept became the Bible as we know it.
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly thy brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. "
You're bigbillybadass enough to go on for days on end telling God A'mighty what to do, but little ol'me can trigger your irrational emotions and scar your fragile feelings with mere words typed on an anonymous internet forum.
I think you're just a retard.......
And you would be the perfect person to identify in-bred retards wouldn't you? Coming of course from an area where they are abundant. Please don't tell your girlfriend sister what I said.
Ok, friend, it's time to get to the bottom of your hatred for God.
Tell us, since you bring it up in just about every post you've made here.
What church, and what was the priest's name.........
You're bigbillybadass enough to go on for days on end telling God A'mighty what to do, but little ol'me can trigger your irrational emotions and scar your fragile feelings with mere words typed on an anonymous internet forum.
I think you're just a retard.......
And you would be the perfect person to identify in-bred retards wouldn't you? Coming of course from an area where they are abundant. Please don't tell your girlfriend sister what I said.
Ok, friend, it's time to get to the bottom of your hatred for God.
Tell us, since you bring it up in just about every post you've made here.
What church, and what was the priest's name.........
Thanks for asking - after all the ranting and slobbering, I think I'm curious about that too,
Some of you people need to realize that God does change and is capable of changing. Witness the change in God from a hot-headed vindictive God always seeking retribution as written in the Old Testament to the more caring, calmer, less-intervening God as written about in the New Testament. I really think God needs to be about in the middle of the two extremes. But there are clearly other things He needs to address. For example, this nonsense where you can be a complete scumbag all your life and then at the last moment repent just before you die and then go to Heaven is NOT on. Also, he needs to change His policy with little children who die before they have a chance to accept God into their lives. Also good, high quality people who have spent lots of time trying their hardest to believe in God, but their brain tells them there is insufficient evidence at this stage in their lives to believe in God. These people should also be going to Heaven. God also needs to change His policy on intervention. He intervened a lot at one point in time as evidence in the Bible, but now he tends not to intervene much. If he dwelled in the middle-ground as I suggest, then he could intervene in such situations as Priests molesting young innocent children and stop that from happening and intervene more so that criminals and non-convicted scumbags have very short lives. That way, by altering the balance, he still gets the same number of people who lose their lives, but it's a greater proportion of lowlifes, rather than innocent good people. The more the weak, spineless, groveling types (some of which are on this thread) condone God's current behavior, the less likely He is to change. These weak, spineless, groveling types are actually contributing to the problem.
This babble - does it cause any others here to think maybe this guy is simply a Christian-bater similar to those two faker Aussies that sometimes crank into discussion threads with devil drivel?
You're bigbillybadass enough to go on for days on end telling God A'mighty what to do, but little ol'me can trigger your irrational emotions and scar your fragile feelings with mere words typed on an anonymous internet forum.
I think you're just a retard.......
And you would be the perfect person to identify in-bred retards wouldn't you? Coming of course from an area where they are abundant. Please don't tell your girlfriend sister what I said.
Ok, friend, it's time to get to the bottom of your hatred for God.
Tell us, since you bring it up in just about every post you've made here.
What church, and what was the priest's name.........
Feral Hog, You've certainly sank to the bottom of your wallow this time, with your vile talk.
You're bigbillybadass enough to go on for days on end telling God A'mighty what to do, but little ol'me can trigger your irrational emotions and scar your fragile feelings with mere words typed on an anonymous internet forum.
I think you're just a retard.......
And you would be the perfect person to identify in-bred retards wouldn't you? Coming of course from an area where they are abundant. Please don't tell your girlfriend sister what I said.
Ok, friend, it's time to get to the bottom of your hatred for God.
Tell us, since you bring it up in just about every post you've made here.
What church, and what was the priest's name.........
Thanks for asking - after all the ranting and slobbering, I think I'm curious about that too,
And I make three.
Now we see why priests should not be referred to as Father. Our Father is in Heaven, just as GOD said.
When kids are lied to and taught to believe the lie that their church fake father is a Gawd, then when they molest an alter boy the kid can extrapolate their fake father with their real FATHER and blame HIM.
"our friends"....we do have a friendship with Australia. Wasn't commanding God, just requesting him to change. I hope you don't think God is going to want weak, spineless, groveling types such as you in Heaven. He's going to want men with courage, who see wrongs being committed and speak out against it. Your type will be turned away at the gates. I will offer Him my services in helping Him select who gets in and who doesn't. And Antlers was right, you also are an R-soul. As I said before, and I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't wish to respond to your posts...because you don't seem very intelligent. Perhaps there is someone you know who has a higher IQ than you that can speak on your behalf?
Here’s where you err. You and I are not equals with God. Your arrogance is astounding.
"our friends"....we do have a friendship with Australia. Wasn't commanding God, just requesting him to change. I hope you don't think God is going to want weak, spineless, groveling types such as you in Heaven. He's going to want men with courage, who see wrongs being committed and speak out against it. Your type will be turned away at the gates. I will offer Him my services in helping Him select who gets in and who doesn't. And Antlers was right, you also are an R-soul. As I said before, and I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't wish to respond to your posts...because you don't seem very intelligent. Perhaps there is someone you know who has a higher IQ than you that can speak on your behalf?
Here’s where you err. You and I are not equals with God. Your STUPIDITY is astounding.
You're bigbillybadass enough to go on for days on end telling God A'mighty what to do, but little ol'me can trigger your irrational emotions and scar your fragile feelings with mere words typed on an anonymous internet forum.
I think you're just a retard.......
And you would be the perfect person to identify in-bred retards wouldn't you? Coming of course from an area where they are abundant. Please don't tell your girlfriend sister what I said.
Ok, friend, it's time to get to the bottom of your hatred for God.
Tell us, since you bring it up in just about every post you've made here.
What church, and what was the priest's name.........
Feral Hog, You've certainly sank to the bottom of your wallow this time, with your vile talk.
God's activity in the Old Testament doesn't fit with the “love your enemies” from Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount. You don’t see a lotta enemy love goin’ on when you read the Old Testament. And it’s not because there’s two different God’s. The covenant that Jesus made is a brand-new covenant.
"our friends"....we do have a friendship with Australia. Wasn't commanding God, just requesting him to change. I hope you don't think God is going to want weak, spineless, groveling types such as you in Heaven. He's going to want men with courage, who see wrongs being committed and speak out against it. Your type will be turned away at the gates. I will offer Him my services in helping Him select who gets in and who doesn't. And Antlers was right, you also are an R-soul. As I said before, and I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't wish to respond to your posts...because you don't seem very intelligent. Perhaps there is someone you know who has a higher IQ than you that can speak on your behalf?
Here’s where you err. You and I are not equals with God. Your arrogance is astounding.
I accept your proposition that we are not equals with God. But you still might be able to get into Heaven on the lower tier. The higher tier will be for the privileged ones such as myself. If God choses me to help Him decide who gets in and who doesn't, I'll try my very hardest to put in a good word for you...even if you haven't really done much to deserve it.
God's activity in the Old Testament doesn't fit with the “love your enemies” from Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount. You don’t see a lotta enemy love goin’ on when you read the Old Testament. And it’s not because there’s two different God’s. The covenant that Jesus made is a brand-new covenant.
I don't know Antlers, no one else on this thread has agreed with your proposition on this point. But, you might be right....you're doing well. It's a bit like Bible study classes isn't it? Kind of good...we are serving the Lord and He would be happy knowing we are "exploring" these issues.
"our friends"....we do have a friendship with Australia. Wasn't commanding God, just requesting him to change. I hope you don't think God is going to want weak, spineless, groveling types such as you in Heaven. He's going to want men with courage, who see wrongs being committed and speak out against it. Your type will be turned away at the gates. I will offer Him my services in helping Him select who gets in and who doesn't. And Antlers was right, you also are an R-soul. As I said before, and I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't wish to respond to your posts...because you don't seem very intelligent. Perhaps there is someone you know who has a higher IQ than you that can speak on your behalf?
Here’s where you err. You and I are not equals with God. Your arrogance is astounding.
I accept your proposition that we are not equals. But you still might be able to get into Heaven on the lower tier. The higher tier will be for the privileged ones such as myself. If God choses me to help Him decide who gets in and who doesn't, I'll try my very hardest to put in a good word for you...even if you haven't really done much to deserve it.
Sounds like you're doing some judging concerning Mr Greg to me. Just saying. Maybe you know what that means and maybe you don't, but in your case I'm thinking you're trying to find out the hard way that ignorance is no excuse to be excused by The Law.
You're bigbillybadass enough to go on for days on end telling God A'mighty what to do, but little ol'me can trigger your irrational emotions and scar your fragile feelings with mere words typed on an anonymous internet forum.
I think you're just a retard.......
And you would be the perfect person to identify in-bred retards wouldn't you? Coming of course from an area where they are abundant. Please don't tell your girlfriend sister what I said.
Ok, friend, it's time to get to the bottom of your hatred for God.
Tell us, since you bring it up in just about every post you've made here.
What church, and what was the priest's name.........
Thanks for asking - after all the ranting and slobbering, I think I'm curious about that too,
And I make three.
Now we see why priests should not be referred to as Father. Our Father is in Heaven, just as GOD said.
When kids are lied to and taught to believe the lie that their church fake father is a Gawd, then when they molest an alter boy the kid can extrapolate their fake father with their real FATHER and blame HIM.
Yeah, JESUS wept.
I think you're on to something...guys definitely angry
You're bigbillybadass enough to go on for days on end telling God A'mighty what to do, but little ol'me can trigger your irrational emotions and scar your fragile feelings with mere words typed on an anonymous internet forum.
I think you're just a retard.......
And you would be the perfect person to identify in-bred retards wouldn't you? Coming of course from an area where they are abundant. Please don't tell your girlfriend sister what I said.
Ok, friend, it's time to get to the bottom of your hatred for God.
Tell us, since you bring it up in just about every post you've made here.
What church, and what was the priest's name.........
Feral Hog, You've certainly sank to the bottom of your wallow this time, with your vile talk.
Answer the question.......
Feral Hog, First of all, stop speaking to me in an unchristian-like manner. Secondly, I certainly don't have a hatred of God. I believe there are areas where he can lift his game. Thirdly, I haven't been abused. To believe that God should have intervened to stop priests from molesting innocent children doesn't mean it happened to me. The fact that I have a great degree of empathy for those innocent victims does not mean I was once a victim. So once again you are wrong.
"our friends"....we do have a friendship with Australia. Wasn't commanding God, just requesting him to change. I hope you don't think God is going to want weak, spineless, groveling types such as you in Heaven. He's going to want men with courage, who see wrongs being committed and speak out against it. Your type will be turned away at the gates. I will offer Him my services in helping Him select who gets in and who doesn't. And Antlers was right, you also are an R-soul. As I said before, and I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I don't wish to respond to your posts...because you don't seem very intelligent. Perhaps there is someone you know who has a higher IQ than you that can speak on your behalf?
Here’s where you err. You and I are not equals with God. Your arrogance is astounding.
I accept your proposition that we are not equals. But you still might be able to get into Heaven on the lower tier. The higher tier will be for the privileged ones such as myself. If God choses me to help Him decide who gets in and who doesn't, I'll try my very hardest to put in a good word for you...even if you haven't really done much to deserve it.
Sounds like you're doing some judging concerning Mr Greg to me. Just saying. Maybe you know what that means and maybe you don't, but in your case I'm thinking you're trying to find out the hard way that ignorance is no excuse to be excused by The Law. BobcatTX, It was Greginturned who put forward the proposition that him and I are not equal before God. I simply agreed with him. Now, if he wants to belittle himself, what am I supposed to do? Call him a liar and say we are equal?
You're bigbillybadass enough to go on for days on end telling God A'mighty what to do, but little ol'me can trigger your irrational emotions and scar your fragile feelings with mere words typed on an anonymous internet forum.
I think you're just a retard.......
And you would be the perfect person to identify in-bred retards wouldn't you? Coming of course from an area where they are abundant. Please don't tell your girlfriend sister what I said.
Ok, friend, it's time to get to the bottom of your hatred for God.
Tell us, since you bring it up in just about every post you've made here.
What church, and what was the priest's name.........
Thanks for asking - after all the ranting and slobbering, I think I'm curious about that too,
And I make three.
Now we see why priests should not be referred to as Father. Our Father is in Heaven, just as GOD said.
When kids are lied to and taught to believe the lie that their church fake father is a Gawd, then when they molest an alter boy the kid can extrapolate their fake father with their real FATHER and blame HIM.
Yeah, JESUS wept.
I think you're on to something...guys definitely angry
Don Corleone, I hope you're not referring to me as being angry....I would be very disappointed in you if that were the case given the pleasant discussion we had.
You're bigbillybadass enough to go on for days on end telling God A'mighty what to do, but little ol'me can trigger your irrational emotions and scar your fragile feelings with mere words typed on an anonymous internet forum.
I think you're just a retard.......
And you would be the perfect person to identify in-bred retards wouldn't you? Coming of course from an area where they are abundant. Please don't tell your girlfriend sister what I said.
Ok, friend, it's time to get to the bottom of your hatred for God.
Tell us, since you bring it up in just about every post you've made here.
What church, and what was the priest's name.........
Feral Hog, You've certainly sank to the bottom of your wallow this time, with your vile talk.
Answer the question.......
Feral Hog, First of all, stop speaking to me in an unchristian-like manner. IF THE SHOE FITS...
Secondly, I certainly don't have a hatred of God. DOESNT MATTER, BLASPHEMY IS WORSE.
I believe there are areas where he can lift his game. PROVES HOW STUPID YOU ARE.
Thirdly, I haven't been abused. SOMEONE ABUSED YOUR MIND.
To believe that God should have intervened to stop priests from molesting innocent children doesn't mean it happened to me. HE DOES. THEY DIE AND GO TO HELL. YOU MAY GET TO WHIP THEIR ASS YET.
The fact that I have a great degree of empathy for those innocent victims does not mean I was once a victim. YOU'RE JUST A VICTIM OF SATAN. HE THOUGHT HE WAS IN GODS CLASS TOO. LOST HIS WINGS AND LEGS AND CRAWLS IN THE DIRT. REMINDS US OF YOU. .
You're bigbillybadass enough to go on for days on end telling God A'mighty what to do, but little ol'me can trigger your irrational emotions and scar your fragile feelings with mere words typed on an anonymous internet forum.
I think you're just a retard.......
And you would be the perfect person to identify in-bred retards wouldn't you? Coming of course from an area where they are abundant. Please don't tell your girlfriend sister what I said.
Ok, friend, it's time to get to the bottom of your hatred for God.
Tell us, since you bring it up in just about every post you've made here.
What church, and what was the priest's name.........
Thanks for asking - after all the ranting and slobbering, I think I'm curious about that too,
And I make three.
Now we see why priests should not be referred to as Father. Our Father is in Heaven, just as GOD said.
When kids are lied to and taught to believe the lie that their church fake father is a Gawd, then when they molest an alter boy the kid can extrapolate their fake father with their real FATHER and blame HIM.
Yeah, JESUS wept.
I think you're on to something...guys definitely angry
Don Corleone, I hope you're not referring to me as being angry....I would be very disappointed in you if that were the case given the pleasant discussion we had.
We are very disappointed that GOD is disappointed in you.
Yeah, JESUS wept.[/quote] I think you're on to something...guys definitely angry[/quote] Don Corleone, I hope you're not referring to me as being angry....I would be very disappointed in you if that were the case given the pleasant discussion we had.[/quote]
We are very disappointed that GOD is disappointed in you. [/quote] BobcatTX, thank you for saying that you are disappointed in God for being disappointed in me. But I know I still have a long way to go for God to be completely happy with me. That is the way we all are (except the innocent children)...we have sinned. Nevertheless, I am confident that on judgement day he will be able to say "Riflehunter, well done my brave crusader!"
"The path of the righteous man (Riflehunter) is beset on all sides (as the above posts show) by the inequities of the selfish (Bobcat, Greginturned) and the tyranny of evil men (Feral Hog, See-See-See-but-Don't see ). Blessed is he (Riflehunter) who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak (all those on this thread) through the valley of the darkness (their subservience, their weakness, their sin). For he is truly thy brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. "
I think you're on to something...guys definitely angry[/quote] Don Corleone, I hope you're not referring to me as being angry....I would be very disappointed in you if that were the case given the pleasant discussion we had.[/quote]
We are very disappointed that GOD is disappointed in you. [/quote] BobcatTX, thank you for saying that you are disappointed in God for being disappointed in me. But I know I still have a long way to go for God to be completely happy with me. That is the way we all are (except the innocent children)...we have sinned. Nevertheless, I am confident that on judgement day he will be able to say "Riflehunter, well done my brave crusader!"[/quote]
Can you please remind me about what HE said about BLASPHEMY and those who grumble about Him.
As a great Bible scholar you surely know HE said the Bible was good for reproof.
I think you're on to something...guys definitely angry[/quote] Don Corleone, I hope you're not referring to me as being angry....I would be very disappointed in you if that were the case given the pleasant discussion we had.[/quote]
We are very disappointed that GOD is disappointed in you. [/quote] BobcatTX, thank you for saying that you are disappointed in God for being disappointed in me. But I know I still have a long way to go for God to be completely happy with me. That is the way we all are (except the innocent children)...we have sinned. Nevertheless, I am confident that on judgement day he will be able to say "Riflehunter, well done my brave crusader!"[/quote]
Smarter than God Himself but can't figure out the quote function. SMH.
I make no claims to be anything but what God sees me as, as THAT is all that matters.
You are a retard, likely a liar about being buggered by a preacher, and you are, by the very words you say here, a false "prophet" claiming you know better than God what God should do. Evil has you by the nutsack too, and you like it, too.
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves." Matthew 7:15
I think you're on to something...guys definitely angry
Don Corleone, I hope you're not referring to me as being angry....I would be very disappointed in you if that were the case given the pleasant discussion we had.[/quote]
We are very disappointed that GOD is disappointed in you. [/quote] BobcatTX, thank you for saying that you are disappointed in God for being disappointed in me. But I know I still have a long way to go for God to be completely happy with me. That is the way we all are (except the innocent children)...we have sinned. Nevertheless, I am confident that on judgement day he will be able to say "Riflehunter, well done my brave crusader!"[/quote]
Can you please remind me about what HE said about BLASPHEMY and those who grumble about Him.
As a great Bible scholar you surely know HE said the Bible was good for reproof.
[/quote] God is not referring to someone who makes suggestions for improvement.
"The path of the righteous man (Riflehunter) is beset on all sides (as the above posts show) by the inequities of the selfish (Bobcat, Greginturned) and the tyranny of evil men (Feral Hog, See-See-See-but-Don't see ). Blessed is he (Riflehunter) who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak (all those on this thread) through the valley of the darkness (their subservience, their weakness, their sin). "
I think I may have found the problem you are having with other believers.
I think you must have a screwed up Bible for I can't seem to find those Scriptures in mine.
I do find this one though which you may find interesting or take with a grain of salt as it makes no difference to me but apparently it does with HE.
"The path of the righteous man (Riflehunter) is beset on all sides (as the above posts show) by the inequities of the selfish (Bobcat, Greginturned) and the tyranny of evil men (Feral Hog, See-See-See-but-Don't see ). Blessed is he (Riflehunter) who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak (all those on this thread) through the valley of the darkness (their subservience, their weakness, their sin). "
I think I may have found the problem you are having with other believers.
I think you must have a screwed up Bible for I can't seem to find those Scriptures in mine.
I do find this one though which you may find interesting or take with a grain of salt as it makes no difference to me but apparently it does with HE.
Thankyou Bobcat. You are true Christian trash. I'm tired now. Goodnight everyone.
"The path of the righteous man (Riflehunter) is beset on all sides (as the above posts show) by the inequities of the selfish (Bobcat, Greginturned) and the tyranny of evil men (Feral Hog, See-See-See-but-Don't see ). Blessed is he (Riflehunter) who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak (all those on this thread) through the valley of the darkness (their subservience, their weakness, their sin). "
I think I may have found the problem you are having with other believers.
I think you must have a screwed up Bible for I can't seem to find those Scriptures in mine.
I do find this one though which you may find interesting or take with a grain of salt as it makes no difference to me but apparently it does with HE.
Thankyou Bobcat. You are a true Christian. I'm tired now. Goodnight everyone.
Thank you, we are tired too, of your asinine BS. Sleep well for before long it could be hot as hell.
Jesus was never resurrected - they recently found the shovel that was used to make sure of it:
Based on what I see here on this forum I won't have to worry about needing someone to translate Australian for me in Heaven......
I think that you'll find that you wont be able to realise your disappointment. Never mind, there there...keep being self-righteous while you still can.
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly thy brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. "
I use that passage when I'm at the range shooting my 9mm - the targets have no chance once they've heard that.
Jesus was never resurrected - they recently found the shovel that was used to make sure of it:
Well the story goes that Jesus was taken off the cross way too early. When the Romans found out they were pissed. Standard Operating Procedure at the time was to keep the crucified criminals on the cross until their bodies fell apart. Anyway they found him in a tomb, harboured by other criminals, and finished the job with a swift shovel to the face, hence the Jesus Shovel. There were 200 eye witnesses to this event but the story was changed over time to something more ridiculous.
Just like all the other religous tales, this too is unfalsifiable yet much more understandable and believable. I rest my case.
Jesus was never resurrected - they recently found the shovel that was used to make sure of it:
Based on what I see here on this forum I won't have to worry about needing someone to translate Australian for me in Heaven......
I think that you'll find that you wont be able to realise your disappointment. Never mind, there there...keep being self-righteous while you still can.
All y'all inbred penal colony godless heathen kangaroo humpers muck up the english language better than anybody else on the planet.......yeah, nah, mate?
There is NOTHING, at all, self righteous about believing in God's promise that whosoever shall believe in Him shall have everlasting life. That's Heaven for you dolts in queensland.
Shovel or no shovel you said that Jesus was never resurrected. He was, on the third day, as it was written.
Jesus was never resurrected - they recently found the shovel that was used to make sure of it:
Based on what I see here on this forum I won't have to worry about needing someone to translate Australian for me in Heaven......
I think that you'll find that you wont be able to realise your disappointment. Never mind, there there...keep being self-righteous while you still can.
All y'all inbred penal colony godless heathen kangaroo humpers muck up the english language better than anybody else on the planet.......yeah, nah, mate?
There is NOTHING, at all, self righteous about believing in God's promise that whosoever shall believe in Him shall have everlasting life. That's Heaven for you dolts in queensland.
Shovel or no shovel you said that Jesus was never resurrected. He was, on the third day, as it was written.
Idiot.......
Waiting here for 9mm Dick to post up the Bible Scriptures that OK sin.
Jesus was never resurrected - they recently found the shovel that was used to make sure of it:
Based on what I see here on this forum I won't have to worry about needing someone to translate Australian for me in Heaven......
I think that you'll find that you wont be able to realise your disappointment. Never mind, there there...keep being self-righteous while you still can.
All y'all inbred penal colony godless heathen kangaroo humpers muck up the english language better than anybody else on the planet.......yeah, nah, mate?
There is NOTHING, at all, self righteous about believing in God's promise that whosoever shall believe in Him shall have everlasting life. That's Heaven for you dolts in queensland.
Shovel or no shovel you said that Jesus was never resurrected. He was, on the third day, as it was written.
Idiot.......
"All y'all inbred penal colony godless heathen kangaroo humpers muck up the english language better than anybody else on the planet.......yeah, nah, mate?" Whew, that's quite an indictment for openers. What else do you know about them?
some of you might have the courage to watch this in an unbiased way and see it for what it is if your awake. This exposure to chronological facts has been put out many times before. Cognitive dissonance is real and fear keeps people trapped in a paradigm.
Jesus was never resurrected - they recently found the shovel that was used to make sure of it:
Based on what I see here on this forum I won't have to worry about needing someone to translate Australian for me in Heaven......
I think that you'll find that you wont be able to realise your disappointment. Never mind, there there...keep being self-righteous while you still can.
All y'all inbred penal colony godless heathen kangaroo humpers muck up the english language better than anybody else on the planet.......yeah, nah, mate?
There is NOTHING, at all, self righteous about believing in God's promise that whosoever shall believe in Him shall have everlasting life. That's Heaven for you dolts in queensland.
Shovel or no shovel you said that Jesus was never resurrected. He was, on the third day, as it was written.
Idiot.......
"All y'all inbred penal colony godless heathen kangaroo humpers muck up the english language better than anybody else on the planet.......yeah, nah, mate?" Whew, that's quite an indictment for openers. What else do you know about them?
I said a prayer before going to bed last night. I asked God to lift the bar a little so that foul-mouthed weak, spineless, groveling trash such as BobcatTX, Feral Hog and See-See-See but Don't See, don't go to Heaven unless they repent their excessive number of sins and make a permanent change. I certainly don't want garbage like them in Heaven.
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly thy brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. "
I use that passage when I'm at the range shooting my 9mm - the targets have no chance once they've heard that.
Sometimes I think you are more of a Christian than some of these foul-mouthed , weak , spineless, grovellers such as Bobcat, Feral Hog and See-See-See but Don't See. You just need to add the Ezekial part to the above, and get a .45 ACP. God has a gold-plated one.
Also, could someone please explain to Feral Hog, that just because his parents are first cousins, it's NOT ok for him to be dating his sister? Thank you.
Anyway, for the folks who are believers: Do y’all see a difference…especially when it comes to Christianity…between “believe in me” and “follow me”…?
When you read the Gospels, is Jesus' agenda for his first century followers…and his 21st century followers…to just simply be people who believe things, or should it be people with an all in, active, daily and relational faith…? Should faith simply be cerebral…?
I said a prayer before going to bed last night. I asked God to lift the bar a little so that foul-mouthed weak, spineless, groveling trash such as BobcatTX, Feral Hog and See-See-See but Don't See, don't go to Heaven unless they repent their excessive number of sins and make a permanent change. I certainly don't want garbage like them in Heaven.
you certainly make the case for non believers with appalling righteousness.
I said a prayer before going to bed last night. I asked God to lift the bar a little so that foul-mouthed weak, spineless, groveling trash such as BobcatTX, Feral Hog and See-See-See but Don't See, don't go to Heaven unless they repent their excessive number of sins and make a permanent change. I certainly don't want garbage like them in Heaven.
RH, serious question... the god you believe in, is he/she the God of the bible or something else? Just trying to see where you're coming from.
Anyway, for the folks who are believers: Do y’all see a difference…especially when it comes to Christianity…between “believe in me” and “follow me”…?
When you read the Gospels, is Jesus' agenda for his first century followers…and his 21st century followers…to just simply be people who believe things, or should it be people with an all in, active, daily and relational faith…? Should faith simply be cerebral…?
Antlers, It is neither. In the 21st Century, God wants us to not only believe in Him, but to become better Christians and better people. He doesn't want us to blindly follow, but to follow and make suggestions to Him about how things could be fairer and better. In effect, we are making both Earth and Heaven even better than they are. Of course He doesn't have to agree with our suggestions, and that is all they are...not demands, just suggestions. We are not putting ourselves on the same level as God by doing that.
I said a prayer before going to bed last night. I asked God to lift the bar a little so that foul-mouthed weak, spineless, groveling trash such as BobcatTX, Feral Hog and See-See-See but Don't See, don't go to Heaven unless they repent their excessive number of sins and make a permanent change. I certainly don't want garbage like them in Heaven.
RH, serious question... the god you believe in, is he/she the God of the bible or something else? Just trying to see where you're coming from.
The God of the Bible. However, the Bible is many men's interpretation of God's Word. It changes over time, and even the language changes. Allowance has to be made for that, because not always man gets things 100% right. Sometimes you have to determine what you believe God's word really is. Too many people have found a loophole in the Bible and exploit that loophole. That loophole is that you can be a scumbag all your life and all you have to do is believe in God and follow him near the end of your life, and you get into Heaven. Likewise, there's several unintended consequences e.g. innocent children being abused by priests and good people going to Hell for various reasons.
I said a prayer before going to bed last night. I asked God to lift the bar a little so that foul-mouthed weak, spineless, groveling trash such as BobcatTX, Feral Hog and See-See-See but Don't See, don't go to Heaven unless they repent their excessive number of sins and make a permanent change. I certainly don't want garbage like them in Heaven.
RH, serious question... the god you believe in, is he/she the God of the bible or something else? Just trying to see where you're coming from.
The God of the Bible. However, the Bible is many men's interpretation of God's Word. It changes over time, and even the language changes. Allowance has to be made for that, because not always man gets things 100% right. Sometimes you have to determine what you believe God's word really is.
Ok thanks, and you just answered my 2nd question about the bible. So if the bible is not the inspired and infallible word of God then my 3rd question is how do you chose what part or parts of the bible are true or false?
I said a prayer before going to bed last night. I asked God to lift the bar a little so that foul-mouthed weak, spineless, groveling trash such as BobcatTX, Feral Hog and See-See-See but Don't See, don't go to Heaven unless they repent their excessive number of sins and make a permanent change. I certainly don't want garbage like them in Heaven.
RH, serious question... the god you believe in, is he/she the God of the bible or something else? Just trying to see where you're coming from.
The God of the Bible. However, the Bible is many men's interpretation of God's Word. It changes over time, and even the language changes. Allowance has to be made for that, because not always man gets things 100% right. Sometimes you have to determine what you believe God's word really is.
Ok thanks, and you just answered my 2nd question about the bible. So if the bible is not the inspired and infallible word of God then my 3rd question is how do you chose what part or parts of the bible are true or false?
Now that is the hard part. But God gave us a brain and some of us, a reasonable IQ and the ability to determine what's logical and what's not...and that can help. Perhaps with AI, it will help us determine illogical or inconsistent parts.
I said a prayer before going to bed last night. I asked God to lift the bar a little so that foul-mouthed weak, spineless, groveling trash such as BobcatTX, Feral Hog and See-See-See but Don't See, don't go to Heaven unless they repent their excessive number of sins and make a permanent change. I certainly don't want garbage like them in Heaven.
RH, serious question... the god you believe in, is he/she the God of the bible or something else? Just trying to see where you're coming from.
The God of the Bible. However, the Bible is many men's interpretation of God's Word. It changes over time, and even the language changes. Allowance has to be made for that, because not always man gets things 100% right. Sometimes you have to determine what you believe God's word really is.
Ok thanks, and you just answered my 2nd question about the bible. So if the bible is not the inspired and infallible word of God then my 3rd question is how do you chose what part or parts of the bible are true or false?
Now that is the hard part. But God gave us a brain and some of us, a reasonable IQ and the ability to determine what's logical and what's not...and that can help. Perhaps with AI, it will help us determine illogical or inconsistent parts.
Ok, thanks for answering truthfully. I'm really at a loss of what to say next. All I can do is leave you with the verse that I lean on when I don't understand God's ways.
Isaiah 55:8-9 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. 9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts higher than your thoughts
I said a prayer before going to bed last night. I asked God to lift the bar a little so that foul-mouthed weak, spineless, groveling trash such as BobcatTX, Feral Hog and See-See-See but Don't See, don't go to Heaven unless they repent their excessive number of sins and make a permanent change. I certainly don't want garbage like them in Heaven.
RH, serious question... the god you believe in, is he/she the God of the bible or something else? Just trying to see where you're coming from.
The God of the Bible. However, the Bible is many men's interpretation of God's Word. It changes over time, and even the language changes. Allowance has to be made for that, because not always man gets things 100% right. Sometimes you have to determine what you believe God's word really is. Too many people have found a loophole in the Bible and exploit that loophole. That loophole is that you can be a scumbag all your life and all you have to do is believe in God and follow him near the end of your life, and you get into Heaven. Likewise, there's several unintended consequences e.g. innocent children being abused by priests and good people going to Hell for various reasons.
Thanks for posting your prayer request to God aimed at keeping others out of Heaven according to your judgment. That, in itself, clarifies a bunch about you and your beliefs. Helpful !!
Now, with regard to your personal explanation of the Bible, please point out the other "loopholes" you think God put there. Also, please describe the other "unintended consequences" in God's plan and works (of course, aside from your insider knowledge about those nasty abusive priests).
I said a prayer before going to bed last night. I asked God to lift the bar a little so that foul-mouthed weak, spineless, groveling trash such as BobcatTX, Feral Hog and See-See-See but Don't See, don't go to Heaven unless they repent their excessive number of sins and make a permanent change. I certainly don't want garbage like them in Heaven.
RH, serious question... the god you believe in, is he/she the God of the bible or something else? Just trying to see where you're coming from.
The God of the Bible. However, the Bible is many men's interpretation of God's Word. It changes over time, and even the language changes. Allowance has to be made for that, because not always man gets things 100% right. Sometimes you have to determine what you believe God's word really is.
Ok thanks, and you just answered my 2nd question about the bible. So if the bible is not the inspired and infallible word of God then my 3rd question is how do you chose what part or parts of the bible are true or false?
Now that is the hard part. But God gave us a brain and some of us, a reasonable IQ and the ability to determine what's logical and what's not...and that can help. Perhaps with AI, it will help us determine illogical or inconsistent parts.
Ok, thanks for answering truthfully. I'm really at a loss of what to say next. All I can do is leave you with the verse that I lean on when I don't understand God's ways.
Isaiah 55:8-9 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. 9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts higher than your thoughts
Now here's something for you all to ponder. We know that the Bible and the interpretation of the Bible changes over time. For example, at one point in time the belief in a place called hell was very strong and at another, hell was thought to be absence of God. If a person advocated an interpretation that was different to the status quo (not the rock-band), would that person be such a sinner if there was a change in interpretation and that person's view then prevailed? I think not.
Jesus was never resurrected - they recently found the shovel that was used to make sure of it:
Based on what I see here on this forum I won't have to worry about needing someone to translate Australian for me in Heaven......
I think that you'll find that you wont be able to realise your disappointment. Never mind, there there...keep being self-righteous while you still can.
All y'all inbred penal colony godless heathen kangaroo humpers muck up the english language better than anybody else on the planet.......yeah, nah, mate?
There is NOTHING, at all, self righteous about believing in God's promise that whosoever shall believe in Him shall have everlasting life. That's Heaven for you dolts in queensland.
Shovel or no shovel you said that Jesus was never resurrected. He was, on the third day, as it was written.
Idiot.......
Ad hominen is so passé yet continues to be used by the feeble minded.
You believe everything in the bible, even though much has been proven false? Does Feral Armerican = Flat Earther by chance?
The simple truth is that faith is a poor means of sorting fact from fiction. Where faith, the opposite of justification through evidence, permits you to believe whatever you like without regard for evidence or truth.
"Faith is like a piece of blank paper whereon you may write as well one miracle as another." ~ Charles Blount (1654-1693)
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as a useful tool." - Seneca
Faith is trusting in what you have good evidence to believe is true.
Many signs of historical criteria provide evidence of the historicity and reliability of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Signs of historical criteria like multiple attestation and eyewitness testimony, the criterion of embarrassment, textual overlap with independent ancient Jewish historians, and the presence of early oral creeds all testify that Jesus was a real Jewish person who lived in Judea, had followers, and was crucified (which is the scholarly consensus), as well as the finding of an empty tomb by women, followed by post-crucifixion appearances. It’s enough to more than get the attention of honest skeptical scholars.
Faith is trusting in what you have good evidence to believe.
Many signs of historical criteria provide evidence of the historicity and reliability of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Signs of historical criteria like multiple attestation and eyewitness testimony, the criterion of embarrassment, textual overlap with independent ancient Jewish historians, and the presence of early oral creeds all testify that Jesus was a real Jewish person who lived in Judea, had followers, and was crucified (which is the scholarly consensus), as well as the finding of an empty tomb by women, followed by post-crucifixion appearances. It’s enough to more than get the attention of honest skeptical scholars.
You are repeating fallacies. The very essence of faith is to believe without evidence. Which is why religion is classified as a faith. Invoking evidence where none exists is a bogus tactic.
A lot of the pain that Jesus suffered when crucified and the controversy over the resurrection could have been avoided if God raised the requirements for getting into Heaven and only allow those into Heaven that have hardly sinned at all. I don't believe my sins and the sins of others like me were enough for Jesus to need to sacrifice Himself for. But I am very grateful just the same.
Faith is trusting in what you have good evidence to believe is true.
Many signs of historical criteria provide evidence of the historicity and reliability of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Signs of historical criteria like multiple attestation and eyewitness testimony, the criterion of embarrassment, textual overlap with independent ancient Jewish historians, and the presence of early oral creeds all testify that Jesus was a real Jewish person who lived in Judea, had followers, and was crucified (which is the scholarly consensus), as well as the finding of an empty tomb by women, followed by post-crucifixion appearances. It’s enough to more than get the attention of honest skeptical scholars.
Biblical faith is considered to be a trust and confidence in God based on evidence but without total proof. Jesus Himself said to “believe on the evidence.” But among all definitions of faith, the common theme is trust.
Faith is trusting in what you have good evidence to believe is true.
Many signs of historical criteria provide evidence of the historicity and reliability of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Signs of historical criteria like multiple attestation and eyewitness testimony, the criterion of embarrassment, textual overlap with independent ancient Jewish historians, and the presence of early oral creeds all testify that Jesus was a real Jewish person who lived in Judea, had followers, and was crucified (which is the scholarly consensus), as well as the finding of an empty tomb by women, followed by post-crucifixion appearances. It’s enough to more than get the attention of honest skeptical scholars.
Biblical faith is considered to be a trust and confidence in God based on evidence but without total proof. Jesus Himself said to “believe on the evidence.” But among all definitions of faith, the common theme is trust.
Faith is trusting in what you have good evidence to believe is true.
Many signs of historical criteria provide evidence of the historicity and reliability of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Signs of historical criteria like multiple attestation and eyewitness testimony, the criterion of embarrassment, textual overlap with independent ancient Jewish historians, and the presence of early oral creeds all testify that Jesus was a real Jewish person who lived in Judea, had followers, and was crucified (which is the scholarly consensus), as well as the finding of an empty tomb by women, followed by post-crucifixion appearances. It’s enough to more than get the attention of honest skeptical scholars.
Biblical faith is considered to be a trust and confidence in God based on evidence but without total proof. Jesus Himself said to “believe on the evidence.” But among all definitions of faith, the common theme is trust.
You are misinterpreting Hebrew 11:1. It doesn't say what you claim.
Faith is trusting in what you have good evidence to believe is true.
Many signs of historical criteria provide evidence of the historicity and reliability of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Signs of historical criteria like multiple attestation and eyewitness testimony, the criterion of embarrassment, textual overlap with independent ancient Jewish historians, and the presence of early oral creeds all testify that Jesus was a real Jewish person who lived in Judea, had followers, and was crucified (which is the scholarly consensus), as well as the finding of an empty tomb by women, followed by post-crucifixion appearances. It’s enough to more than get the attention of honest skeptical scholars.
Biblical faith is considered to be a trust and confidence in God based on evidence but without total proof. Jesus Himself said to “believe on the evidence.” But among all definitions of faith, the common theme is trust.
I think Antlers is right on that point.
Depends on how you define 'evidence.' If you define evidence as something written in old scrolls, then there is plenty of evidence for all sorts of wonders.
Faith is trusting in what you have good evidence to believe is true.
Many signs of historical criteria provide evidence of the historicity and reliability of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Signs of historical criteria like multiple attestation and eyewitness testimony, the criterion of embarrassment, textual overlap with independent ancient Jewish historians, and the presence of early oral creeds all testify that Jesus was a real Jewish person who lived in Judea, had followers, and was crucified (which is the scholarly consensus), as well as the finding of an empty tomb by women, followed by post-crucifixion appearances. It’s enough to more than get the attention of honest skeptical scholars.
Biblical faith is considered to be a trust and confidence in God based on evidence but without total proof. Jesus Himself said to “believe on the evidence.” But among all definitions of faith, the common theme is trust.
I think Antlers is right on that point.
Depends on how you define 'evidence.' If you define evidence as something written in old scrolls, then there is plenty of evidence for all sorts of wonders.
I think it is a form of evidence, but not sure if it would be "admissible evidence" as you can't cross-examine the author.
Faith is trusting in what you have good evidence to believe is true.
Many signs of historical criteria provide evidence of the historicity and reliability of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Signs of historical criteria like multiple attestation and eyewitness testimony, the criterion of embarrassment, textual overlap with independent ancient Jewish historians, and the presence of early oral creeds all testify that Jesus was a real Jewish person who lived in Judea, had followers, and was crucified (which is the scholarly consensus), as well as the finding of an empty tomb by women, followed by post-crucifixion appearances. It’s enough to more than get the attention of honest skeptical scholars.
Biblical faith is considered to be a trust and confidence in God based on evidence but without total proof. Jesus Himself said to “believe on the evidence.” But among all definitions of faith, the common theme is trust.
I think Antlers is right on that point.
Depends on how you define 'evidence.' If you define evidence as something written in old scrolls, then there is plenty of evidence for all sorts of wonders.
I think it is a form of evidence, but not sure if it would be "admissible evidence" as you can't cross-examine the author.
Without any possible way of verifying what is written, it's simply something that someone wrote.
Given probability and fantastic supernatural claims, it takes faith to believe that a God created the world, the universe (unimaginably vast)....and 'died for our sins,' the likelyhood of this being true is extremely low to zero.
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
Maybe our collective human intelligence is so undeveloped that we cannot see things like the size and scope of the universe as infact being one example of the proof that God exists.
This is all you need to know about faith and proof of the existence of God.
Romans 1 16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, just as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
So the faith we must have is not faith that God exists, He said thats a given by proof of creation and if you still don't believe then you are willfully ignorant and suppressing the truth. So the faith we must have is to believe and accept the birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection of His son Jesus the Christ.
Faith is trusting in what you have good evidence to believe.
Many signs of historical criteria provide evidence of the historicity and reliability of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Signs of historical criteria like multiple attestation and eyewitness testimony, the criterion of embarrassment, textual overlap with independent ancient Jewish historians, and the presence of early oral creeds all testify that Jesus was a real Jewish person who lived in Judea, had followers, and was crucified (which is the scholarly consensus), as well as the finding of an empty tomb by women, followed by post-crucifixion appearances. It’s enough to more than get the attention of honest skeptical scholars.
You are repeating fallacies. The very essence of faith is to believe without evidence. Which is why religion is classified as a faith. Invoking evidence where none exists is a bogus tactic.
Antlers is completely correct.
…..and….as usual, you are completely wrong.
You just make up stuff and alter definitions to bolster your juvenile attempts at self-aggrandizement.
Given our limited understanding of the universe, we don't know what the probability of the existence of the universe is.
It may appear improbable to us, yet the universe exists and unlike God - whatever that's supposed to be - we have abundent evidence for its existence.
Unlike 'God,' a word without references or evidence, we need no faith to accept the reality of the universe.
You have exactly the same evidence of God as you have of the universe. You have not personally seen or experienced the universe. You don't know of anything outside your own experience except from what others tell you. You simply choose what you are willing to believe. The only difference is that the belief of the universe beyond your personal experience has not been believed nearly as long, or by as many people as the existence of God.
A lot of the pain that Jesus suffered when crucified and the controversy over the resurrection could have been avoided if God raised the requirements for getting into Heaven and only allow those into Heaven that have hardly sinned at all. I don't believe my sins and the sins of others like me were enough for Jesus to need to sacrifice Himself for. But I am very grateful just the same.
It's not a matter of the severity of sins. In order to attain heaven, you must believe in, and trust in God rather than in yourself. You think you have been good enough to qualify for Heaven without Jesus, therefore you have no trust or faith in God for your salvation. God will not judge you good enough. You are damned because of your lack of trust in God, not because of your sins.
This is all you need to know about faith and proof of the existence of God.
Romans 1 16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, just as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
So the faith we must have is not faith that God exists, He said thats a given by proof of creation and if you still don't believe then you are willfully ignorant and suppressing the truth. So the faith we must have is to believe and accept the birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection of His son Jesus the Christ.
You boys really need to give a break and go yank your puds.
Does she really exist though, in real life?
Don't know.
Can't see her fingers so that's a clue. Last time I checked the basement thread about 1/3 of the new entries were AI generated. People like to make fictions, be they pictures or stories, especially if they sever a purpose such as getting people to act a certain way, making money, or filling an offering plate.
Faith is trusting in what you have good evidence to believe is true.
Many signs of historical criteria provide evidence of the historicity and reliability of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Signs of historical criteria like multiple attestation and eyewitness testimony, the criterion of embarrassment, textual overlap with independent ancient Jewish historians, and the presence of early oral creeds all testify that Jesus was a real Jewish person who lived in Judea, had followers, and was crucified (which is the scholarly consensus), as well as the finding of an empty tomb by women, followed by post-crucifixion appearances. It’s enough to more than get the attention of honest skeptical scholars.
Biblical faith is considered to be a trust and confidence in God based on evidence but without total proof. Jesus Himself said to “believe on the evidence.” But among all definitions of faith, the common theme is trust.
I think Antlers is right on that point.
Depends on how you define 'evidence.' If you define evidence as something written in old scrolls, then there is plenty of evidence for all sorts of wonders.
I think it is a form of evidence, but not sure if it would be "admissible evidence" as you can't cross-examine the author.
Especially since the Gospel authors were anonymous and written at least decades after the alleged events.
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
God created the Universe.
Who Create God?
The believers argument here always ends with the logical fallacy of Special Pleading.
Given our limited understanding of the universe, we don't know what the probability of the existence of the universe is.
It may appear improbable to us, yet the universe exists and unlike God - whatever that's supposed to be - we have abundent evidence for its existence.
Unlike 'God,' a word without references or evidence, we need no faith to accept the reality of the universe.
You have exactly the same evidence of God as you have of the universe. You have not personally seen or experienced the universe. You don't know of anything outside your own experience except from what others tell you. You simply choose what you are willing to believe. The only difference is that the belief of the universe beyond your personal experience has not been believed nearly as long, or by as many people as the existence of God.
Depends on how you define experience.
I've seen the Hubble deep field images. That is a personal experience.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
This is all you need to know about faith and proof of the existence of God.
Romans 1 16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, just as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
So the faith we must have is not faith that God exists, He said thats a given by proof of creation and if you still don't believe then you are willfully ignorant and suppressing the truth. So the faith we must have is to believe and accept the birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection of His son Jesus the Christ.
Don,
Read that passage very carefully, then contemplate what you choice of those verses says about YOU.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
The same reason that NFL haters can't NOT click on a thread discussing the playoffs, the draft, etc.
Given our limited understanding of the universe, we don't know what the probability of the existence of the universe is.
It may appear improbable to us, yet the universe exists and unlike God - whatever that's supposed to be - we have abundent evidence for its existence.
Unlike 'God,' a word without references or evidence, we need no faith to accept the reality of the universe.
You have exactly the same evidence of God as you have of the universe. You have not personally seen or experienced the universe. You don't know of anything outside your own experience except from what others tell you. You simply choose what you are willing to believe. The only difference is that the belief of the universe beyond your personal experience has not been believed nearly as long, or by as many people as the existence of God.
Depends on how you define experience.
I've seen the Hubble deep field images. That is a personal experience.
Have you been to the telescope and directly seen the images, or have you just seen the images that were posted somewhere? Point is that faith is necessary to believe anything outside one's direct personal experience. It's just a matter of who you believe and what you have faith in.
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
God created the Universe.
Who Create God?
The believers argument here always ends with the logical fallacy of Special Pleading.
No need to go through the who created who argument if you view God as the creative force.
This is all you need to know about faith and proof of the existence of God.
Romans 1 16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, just as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
So the faith we must have is not faith that God exists, He said thats a given by proof of creation and if you still don't believe then you are willfully ignorant and suppressing the truth. So the faith we must have is to believe and accept the birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection of His son Jesus the Christ.
Don,
Read that passage very carefully, then contemplate what you choice of those verses says about YOU.
Anyone that thinks Romans is God's word just needs to go to chapter 13 and read the first few verses where he he asserts the civil government is to obeyed as an agent of God for the good.
In a court of law a witness caught in a lie is no more accepted as a witness for anything.
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
God created the Universe.
Who Create God?
The believers argument here always ends with the logical fallacy of Special Pleading.
No need to go through the who created who argument if you view God as the creative force.
Of course you want to avoid that argument, because it's one you loose.
Especially since the Gospel authors were anonymous and written at least decades after the alleged events.
Biographies and other historical books about people and events that existed and took place hundreds of years ago, and even thousands of years ago, are still being written to this day. For example, consider the historical books about the Comanches being discussed on another active thread here on the Campfire. Nobody doubts their historicity or their reliability.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Because the title of the thread was “Do you believe in god”. I am not anything that you mentioned by your name calling. I wished I had the faith some of you do but I don’t. At least I am honest with myself. Your a good reason why people do not respect “Christians”.
Because the title of the thread was “Do you believe in god”. I am not anything that you mentioned by your name calling. I wished I had the faith some of you do but I don’t. At least I am honest with myself. Your a good reason why people do not respect “Christians”.
Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you."
It is not always found in churches, from a neighbor who claims to know about it or a self-proclaimed prophet. But I do feel that in God's own time He will reveal Himself to everyone who truly seeks Him out.
I do hope you find such peace and joy in your life. It can begin a walk that is very fulfilling. There has been a promise made to us!
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Because the title of the thread was “Do you believe in god”. I am not anything that you mentioned by your name calling. I wished I had the faith some of you do but I don’t. At least I am honest with myself. Your a good reason why people do not respect “Christians”.
Keep being honest with yourself and keep seeking the truth. God wants people to seek the truth. I believe that if you seek to honestly and truthfully know God, you will.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Because the title of the thread was “Do you believe in god”. I am not anything that you mentioned by your name calling. I wished I had the faith some of you do but I don’t. At least I am honest with myself. Your a good reason why people do not respect “Christians”.
Keep being honest with yourself and keep seeking the truth. God wants people to seek the truth. I believe that if you seek to honestly and truthfully know God, you will.
A young earth creationist discussing "seeking truth". Kind of ironic.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Because the title of the thread was “Do you believe in god”. I am not anything that you mentioned by your name calling. I wished I had the faith some of you do but I don’t. At least I am honest with myself. Your a good reason why people do not respect “Christians”.
Keep being honest with yourself and keep seeking the truth. God wants people to seek the truth. I believe that if you seek to honestly and truthfully know God, you will.
A young earth creationist discussing "seeking truth". Kind of ironic.
If you are referring to me, you are making false assumptions.
This is all you need to know about faith and proof of the existence of God.
Romans 1 16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, just as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
So the faith we must have is not faith that God exists, He said thats a given by proof of creation and if you still don't believe then you are willfully ignorant and suppressing the truth. So the faith we must have is to believe and accept the birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection of His son Jesus the Christ.
Don,
Read that passage very carefully, then contemplate what you choice of those verses says about YOU.
Not sure what you mean but the thread subject at that time was do you have faith to believe in God's existence and my point was God says no faith needed if you're honest with yourself.
This is all you need to know about faith and proof of the existence of God.
Romans 1 16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, just as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
So the faith we must have is not faith that God exists, He said thats a given by proof of creation and if you still don't believe then you are willfully ignorant and suppressing the truth. So the faith we must have is to believe and accept the birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection of His son Jesus the Christ.
Don,
Read that passage very carefully, then contemplate what you choice of those verses says about YOU.
Not sure what you mean but the thread subject at that time was do you have faith to believe in God's existence and my point was God says no faith needed if you're honest with yourself.
Read it again, but this time substitute God with Allah, or Vishnu, then maybe you can understand how it sounds to non-Christians.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Because the title of the thread was “Do you believe in god”. I am not anything that you mentioned by your name calling. I wished I had the faith some of you do but I don’t. At least I am honest with myself. Your a good reason why people do not respect “Christians”.
Keep being honest with yourself and keep seeking the truth. God wants people to seek the truth. I believe that if you seek to honestly and truthfully know God, you will.
A young earth creationist discussing "seeking truth". Kind of ironic.
If you are referring to me, you are making false assumptions.
That's not consistent with what I recall, but if I microprinted your position I apologize. So do you accept that a Universe age of around 13 billion years, and earth around 4 billion is the current best supported hypothesis?
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
You complain like a woman.
As with other matters, you reveal your very strange concept of "woman" - maybe you have never experienced a real one. And, you dodge answering the question - like a coward.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Because the title of the thread was “Do you believe in god”. I am not anything that you mentioned by your name calling. I wished I had the faith some of you do but I don’t. At least I am honest with myself. Your a good reason why people do not respect “Christians”.
I have zero interest in gaining any respect through these posts. My interest is in directness, truth and sincerity. All else seems drivel
If you are not any of those types noted and are as sincere as it seems, the characterizations and the question about reason were not at all directed at you. My post did not refer to non-Christians, and if you are here seeking truth and exploring the basis for faith, there is not a better reason - and I wish you the best with all success.
This is all you need to know about faith and proof of the existence of God.
Romans 1 16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, just as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
So the faith we must have is not faith that God exists, He said thats a given by proof of creation and if you still don't believe then you are willfully ignorant and suppressing the truth. So the faith we must have is to believe and accept the birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection of His son Jesus the Christ.
Don,
Read that passage very carefully, then contemplate what you choice of those verses says about YOU.
Not sure what you mean but the thread subject at that time was do you have faith to believe in God's existence and my point was God says no faith needed if you're honest with yourself.
Read it again, but this time substitute God with Allah, or Vishnu, then maybe you can understand how it sounds to non-Christians.
OK, I'm sorry that's offensive to you but I am reading from the Judeo Christian Bible not the Quran or something else.
My point of this verse- "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
-is that God is saying it's obvious to ALL people that there is a creator God and weather you choose that to be the God of the bible is your choice.
I was once an unbeliever and through a series of events over a period of years in my life I saw God's love for me and that He had a plan for my life. Gave everything to Him after that and have never regretted a minute of it. While still an unbeliever a Christian coworker told me if you ever remember anything I say then remember this, "God is good and God loves you". Even though I wasn't a believer I hung onto that and challenged God one night with it and that was the night I was saved. God brought me to the place where I was seeking him with ALL my heart. And if there is nothing else you or anybody else remembers about this thread then please remember that God is good and God loves you!
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
You complain like a woman.
As with other matters, you reveal your very strange concept of "woman" - maybe you have never experienced a real one. And, you dodge answering the question - like a coward.
When a woman wears a short skirt and shows her cleavage she doesn't get to choose who looks at her, but that won't prevent her from complaining about getting looks she doesn't like.
Like wise when you join a thread titled "Do you believe in God", you don't get to chose who responds and how, but that doesn't stop you from complaining... just like a woman.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Because the title of the thread was “Do you believe in god”. I am not anything that you mentioned by your name calling. I wished I had the faith some of you do but I don’t. At least I am honest with myself. Your a good reason why people do not respect “Christians”.
Keep being honest with yourself and keep seeking the truth. God wants people to seek the truth. I believe that if you seek to honestly and truthfully know God, you will.
A young earth creationist discussing "seeking truth". Kind of ironic.
If you are referring to me, you are making false assumptions.
That's not consistent with what I recall, but if I microprinted your position I apologize. So do you accept that a Universe age of around 13 billion years, and earth around 4 billion is the current best supported hypothesis?
I haven't looked into it enough to know if I accept the current top hypothesis. I would have to look at everything as objectively as possible, which to me means seeking truth. I don't completely discount that the account recorded historically in Genesis could be speaking of a 6000 year period of time from Adam to current following genealogies. I think genealogies is where the 6000 years comes in.
There is also theory among Christians who also consider themselves scientists that any amount of time may have occurred between Genesis verse 1 and verse 2. The Hebrew translated as "and the world was without form and void" actually suggests a different translation than basically God made the world from that which was without form and void. The Hebrew suggests that God made the world, and then that world was made a total mess,or, a complete disaster. Christian scientists equate it to the fall of Satan destroying the first earth that is accounted in verse 2 of Genesis 1.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
You complain like a woman.
As with other matters, you reveal your very strange concept of "woman" - maybe you have never experienced a real one. And, you dodge answering the question - like a coward.
When a woman wears a short skirt and shows her cleavage she doesn't get to choose who looks at her, but that won't prevent her from complaining about getting looks she doesn't like.
Like wise when you join a thread titled "Do you believe in God", you don't get to chose who responds and how, but that doesn't stop you from complaining... just like a woman.
Of course you are welcome to contribute on this thread, and your arguments are welcome. See-See-See- But-Don't-See has already admitted on another thread (Well I caught the crud thread) that he is not very smart.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Here is your reason. Romans 3:10-18. It's human nature to hate on God and unless we are filled with the Holy Spirit, this is our state of affairs.
10 As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. 13 Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. 14 Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know. 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
This is all you need to know about faith and proof of the existence of God.
Romans 1 16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, just as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
So the faith we must have is not faith that God exists, He said thats a given by proof of creation and if you still don't believe then you are willfully ignorant and suppressing the truth. So the faith we must have is to believe and accept the birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection of His son Jesus the Christ.
Don,
Read that passage very carefully, then contemplate what you choice of those verses says about YOU.
Not sure what you mean but the thread subject at that time was do you have faith to believe in God's existence and my point was God says no faith needed if you're honest with yourself.
Read it again, but this time substitute God with Allah, or Vishnu, then maybe you can understand how it sounds to non-Christians.
OK, I'm sorry that's offensive to you but I am reading from the Judeo Christian Bible not the Quran or something else.
My point of this verse- "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
-is that God is saying it's obvious to ALL people that there is a creator God and weather you choose that to be the God of the bible is your choice.
I was once an unbeliever and through a series of events over a period of years in my life I saw God's love for me and that He had a plan for my life. Gave everything to Him after that and have never regretted a minute of it. While still an unbeliever a Christian coworker told me if you ever remember anything I say then remember this, "God is good and God loves you". Even though I wasn't a believer I hung onto that and challenged God one night with it and that was the night I was saved. God brought me to the place where I was seeking him with ALL my heart. And if there is nothing else you or anybody else remembers about this thread then please remember that God is good and God loves you!
Here, let me help you:
"For the wrath of ALLAH is revealed from heaven against all Christians and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about Allah is plain to them, because Allah has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So Christians are without excuse. 21 For although they knew Allah, they did not honor him as Allah or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
Do you see how that comes across?
I don't think you intended it that way, but when you talk of God's wrath and how foolish and ignored people with different view point are, the rest of your message is lost. That's why you'll never see Wobbie, Antlers, and Christians of their ilk quote these verses.
This total belief without question , total submission sure makes one easy to manipulate, by those who are/were in a position to do so (such as the ancient priests etc).
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Because the title of the thread was “Do you believe in god”. I am not anything that you mentioned by your name calling. I wished I had the faith some of you do but I don’t. At least I am honest with myself. Your a good reason why people do not respect “Christians”.
Keep being honest with yourself and keep seeking the truth. God wants people to seek the truth. I believe that if you seek to honestly and truthfully know God, you will.
A young earth creationist discussing "seeking truth". Kind of ironic.
If you are referring to me, you are making false assumptions.
That's not consistent with what I recall, but if I microprinted your position I apologize. So do you accept that a Universe age of around 13 billion years, and earth around 4 billion is the current best supported hypothesis?
I haven't looked into it enough to know if I accept the current top hypothesis. I would have to look at everything as objectively as possible, which to me means seeking truth. I don't completely discount that the account recorded historically in Genesis could be speaking of a 6000 year period of time from Adam to current following genealogies. I think genealogies is where the 6000 years comes in.
There is also theory among Christians who also consider themselves scientists that any amount of time may have occurred between Genesis verse 1 and verse 2. The Hebrew translated as "and the world was without form and void" actually suggests a different translation than basically God made the world from that which was without form and void. The Hebrew suggests that God made the world, and then that world was made a total mess,or, a complete disaster. C
Christian scientists equate it to the fall of Satan destroying the first earth that is accounted in verse 2 of Genesis 1.
So you don't know, but see no need to throw out either the science or Biblical account based on the other. Ok, that's fair.
This total belief without question , total submission sure makes one easy to manipulate, by those who are/were in a position to do so (such as the ancient priests etc).
And don't forget the quote from Hasting demonstrating how the Priest s and Rulers worked hand in glove together.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
You complain like a woman.
As with other matters, you reveal your very strange concept of "woman" - maybe you have never experienced a real one. And, you dodge answering the question - like a coward.
When a woman wears a short skirt and shows her cleavage she doesn't get to choose who looks at her, but that won't prevent her from complaining about getting looks she doesn't like.
Like wise when you join a thread titled "Do you believe in God", you don't get to chose who responds and how, but that doesn't stop you from complaining... just like a woman.
One of your biggest problems is that you can't handle the straightforward truths, such as those stated in that post. In that weakness you try to deflect (insert your "woman" problem) to dodge the hard question staring you in the face. You raise a diversion about someone ostensibly "complaining" (and give us more than a hint about your woman problems) to avoid giving the reasons for your behavior in these threads. Now - let's hear your actual reason(s).
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
You complain like a woman.
As with other matters, you reveal your very strange concept of "woman" - maybe you have never experienced a real one. And, you dodge answering the question - like a coward.
When a woman wears a short skirt and shows her cleavage she doesn't get to choose who looks at her, but that won't prevent her from complaining about getting looks she doesn't like.
Like wise when you join a thread titled "Do you believe in God", you don't get to chose who responds and how, but that doesn't stop you from complaining... just like a woman.
Of course you are welcome to contribute on this thread, and your arguments are welcome. See-See-See- But-Don't-See has already admitted on another thread (Well I caught the crud thread) that he is not very smart.
No dimwit - this is what I posted there. "Rifleman, you are one weak sister on this site - and you misquote like it's congenital for you. Here you are on a "get well wish" thread showing your ignorance due to your extreme thirst for attention. With regard to smart - how does it feel to be reminded that 99.9% of the folks on this site are smarter than you, and 100% are more likeable.?"
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
You complain like a woman.
As with other matters, you reveal your very strange concept of "woman" - maybe you have never experienced a real one. And, you dodge answering the question - like a coward.
When a woman wears a short skirt and shows her cleavage she doesn't get to choose who looks at her, but that won't prevent her from complaining about getting looks she doesn't like.
Like wise when you join a thread titled "Do you believe in God", you don't get to chose who responds and how, but that doesn't stop you from complaining... just like a woman.
One of your biggest problems is that you can't handle the straightforward truths, such as those stated in that post. In that weakness you try to deflect (insert your "woman" problem) to dodge the hard question staring you in the face. You raise a diversion about someone ostensibly "complaining" (and give us more than a hint about your woman problems) to avoid giving the reasons for your behavior in these threads. Now - let's hear your actual reason(s).
Not that I own you an explanation, but I thought it was amusing, and it was fun to see who's hiding under all that pretentiousness.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Here is your reason. Romans 3:10-18. It's human nature to hate on God and unless we are filled with the Holy Spirit, this is our state of affairs.
10 As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. 13 Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. 14 Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know. 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
If you wanted to replace God with something like "the condition of human existence", we could spend a lot of time unpacking that statement.
Now I see no good reason to believe if your God, but if he did exist, I suspect the human condition would be much better than it is today, so putting all this onto your God would be unfair.
This total belief without question , total submission sure makes one easy to manipulate, by those who are/were in a position to do so (such as the ancient priests etc).
How ancient are you referring to?
The priests at the time were a big part of putting Jesus on a cross, because they hated him, because by rebelling against that manipulation He threatened their power and standing, as well as trying to crush His following long after He died and was risen. I'm sure you know what the Bible says about it.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
You complain like a woman.
As with other matters, you reveal your very strange concept of "woman" - maybe you have never experienced a real one. And, you dodge answering the question - like a coward.
When a woman wears a short skirt and shows her cleavage she doesn't get to choose who looks at her, but that won't prevent her from complaining about getting looks she doesn't like.
Like wise when you join a thread titled "Do you believe in God", you don't get to chose who responds and how, but that doesn't stop you from complaining... just like a woman.
One of your biggest problems is that you can't handle the straightforward truths, such as those stated in that post. In that weakness you try to deflect (insert your "woman" problem) to dodge the hard question staring you in the face. You raise a diversion about someone ostensibly "complaining" (and give us more than a hint about your woman problems) to avoid giving the reasons for your behavior in these threads. Now - let's hear your actual reason(s).
Not that I own you an explanation, but I thought it was amusing, and it was fun to see who's hiding under all that pretentiousness.
If you value your own amusement more than being straightforward and responding to a cogent question about your behavior, that is telling and good for folks here to know. I would certainly agree that you don't owe me or others here an explanation of your reasons for such behavior - but seems like you might owe honesty to the central person in your life.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
You complain like a woman.
As with other matters, you reveal your very strange concept of "woman" - maybe you have never experienced a real one. And, you dodge answering the question - like a coward.
When a woman wears a short skirt and shows her cleavage she doesn't get to choose who looks at her, but that won't prevent her from complaining about getting looks she doesn't like.
Like wise when you join a thread titled "Do you believe in God", you don't get to chose who responds and how, but that doesn't stop you from complaining... just like a woman.
One of your biggest problems is that you can't handle the straightforward truths, such as those stated in that post. In that weakness you try to deflect (insert your "woman" problem) to dodge the hard question staring you in the face. You raise a diversion about someone ostensibly "complaining" (and give us more than a hint about your woman problems) to avoid giving the reasons for your behavior in these threads. Now - let's hear your actual reason(s).
Not that I own you an explanation, but I thought it was amusing, and it was fun to see who's hiding under all that pretentiousness.
If you value your own amusement more than being straightforward and responding to a cogent question about your behavior, that is telling and good for folks here to know. I would certainly agree that you don't owe me or others here an explanation of your reasons for such behavior - but seems like you might owe honesty to the central person in your life.
Relax Francis.
It's Monday. We made it to a whole new week.
Besides, a little cognitive dissidence from time to time is good for you.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Because the title of the thread was “Do you believe in god”. I am not anything that you mentioned by your name calling. I wished I had the faith some of you do but I don’t. At least I am honest with myself. Your a good reason why people do not respect “Christians”.
Keep being honest with yourself and keep seeking the truth. God wants people to seek the truth. I believe that if you seek to honestly and truthfully know God, you will.
A young earth creationist discussing "seeking truth". Kind of ironic.
If you are referring to me, you are making false assumptions.
That's not consistent with what I recall, but if I microprinted your position I apologize. So do you accept that a Universe age of around 13 billion years, and earth around 4 billion is the current best supported hypothesis?
I haven't looked into it enough to know if I accept the current top hypothesis. I would have to look at everything as objectively as possible, which to me means seeking truth. I don't completely discount that the account recorded historically in Genesis could be speaking of a 6000 year period of time from Adam to current following genealogies. I think genealogies is where the 6000 years comes in.
There is also theory among Christians who also consider themselves scientists that any amount of time may have occurred between Genesis verse 1 and verse 2. The Hebrew translated as "and the world was without form and void" actually suggests a different translation than basically God made the world from that which was without form and void. The Hebrew suggests that God made the world, and then that world was made a total mess,or, a complete disaster. C
Christian scientists equate it to the fall of Satan destroying the first earth that is accounted in verse 2 of Genesis 1.
So you don't know, but see no need to throw out either the science or Biblical account based on the other. Ok, that's fair.
That's pretty accurate. I think there is value in both views, just as there is BS in both views. IMHO it's up to us look at everything as objectively as possible. Bias is a huge issue whether talking religion or science, by both the producers and consumers.
A young earth creationist discussing "seeking truth". Kind of ironic.
Surely there are no young earth creationists left or belief that the entire land surface of the earth was flooded less than 10 to 12 thousand years ago. We have the bones and we understand plate tectonics now. Those two things prove to the least curious that this world has been around a very long time.
A preacher once gave me proof of a world wide inundation (the Noah flood). He either saw or was told about seashells discovered at 8000 ft elevation somewhere down in Latin America. He wasn't open at all to my saying that 8000 ft. elevation was once below sea level for a very long time and got lifted by plates colliding.
The creation story in Genesis was just the best they could do with the knowledge they had at the time.
Realizing the creation story ain't quite right does not preclude the possibility of a supernatural God or creative force. I do believe there is such a God and that Jesus was who he claimed to be, and that the Jewish people are a miracle destined to rule the world.
You boys really need to give a break and go yank your puds.
Does she really exist though, in real life?
Absolutely, ye of little faith.
I'm sorry Johnn, unless you put that photo in a book I will not believe she is real. If it is in a book, I will believe she is real and every component of her is real. I will also believe that she will desire me, and will want to spend the rest of my life with me, and she will be loyal and faithful. I will not question anything in that book. Once I get that book, a wonderful feeling will come over me, I will know I will be in bliss for the rest of my life. Please put the photo in a book, nothing else, just the photo.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
You complain like a woman.
As with other matters, you reveal your very strange concept of "woman" - maybe you have never experienced a real one. And, you dodge answering the question - like a coward.
When a woman wears a short skirt and shows her cleavage she doesn't get to choose who looks at her, but that won't prevent her from complaining about getting looks she doesn't like.
Like wise when you join a thread titled "Do you believe in God", you don't get to chose who responds and how, but that doesn't stop you from complaining... just like a woman.
Of course you are welcome to contribute on this thread, and your arguments are welcome. See-See-See- But-Don't-See has already admitted on another thread (Well I caught the crud thread) that he is not very smart.
No dimwit - this is what I posted there. "Rifleman, you are one weak sister on this site - and you misquote like it's congenital for you. Here you are on a "get well wish" thread showing your ignorance due to your extreme thirst for attention. With regard to smart - how does it feel to be reminded that 99.9% of the folks on this site are smarter than you, and 100% are more likeable.?"
This is what the filthy lying pretend-Christian See-See-See-But-Don't-See posted on that thread: "Not smart enough to give advice on the meds/supplements, but hope all of that stuff works well and that you are soon past the crud. You deserve to feel better." And it doesn't matter whether a scumbag such as you likes me or not...I will be with God eventually and you won't.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
[quote=CCCC]Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
You complain like a woman.[/quotemedicine] As with other matters, you reveal your very strange concept of "woman" - maybe you have never experienced a real one. And, you dodge answering the question - like a coward.
When a woman wears a short skirt and shows her cleavage she doesn't get to choose who looks at her, but that won't prevent her from complaining about getting looks she doesn't like.
Like wise when you join a thread titled "Do you believe in God", you don't get to chose who responds and how, but that doesn't stop you from complaining... just like a woman.
Of course you are welcome to contribute on this thread, and your arguments are welcome. See-See-See- But-Don't-See has already admitted on another thread (Well I caught the crud thread) that he is not very smart.
No dimwit - this is what I posted there. "Rifleman, you are one weak sister on this site - and you misquote like it's congenital for you. Here you are on a "get well wish" thread showing your ignorance due to your extreme thirst for attention. With regard to smart - how does it feel to be reminded that 99.9% of the folks on this site are smarter than you, and 100% are more likeable.?"
This is what the filthy lying pretend-Christian See-See-See-But-Don't-See posted on that thread: "Not smart enough to give advice on the meds/supplements, but hope all of that stuff works well and that you are soon past the crud. You deserve to feel better." And it doesn't matter whether a scumbag such as you likes me or not...I will be with God eventually and you won't.
Rifleman, about all you have left in your quiver is your name-calling routine. Right - I don't know enough about medicines to give a fellow advice and had the temerity to say so rather than act like a pseudo expert. That must be a real sin and certainly indicates that a person is intellectually deficient. Meanwhile, jerks like you pretend to be experts, claim that God should accept direction from you, boast about how well God will treat you and then try to tell others that they will not be in Heaven. And you can do all of that silliness with "hypocrite" stamped on your forehead. What a sad piece of work.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
A young earth creationist discussing "seeking truth". Kind of ironic.
Surely there are no young earth creationists left or belief that the entire land surface of the earth was flooded less than 10 to 12 thousand years ago. We have the bones and we understand plate tectonics now. Those two things prove to the least curious that this world has been around a very long time.
A preacher once gave me proof of a world wide inundation (the Noah flood). He either saw or was told about seashells discovered at 8000 ft elevation somewhere down in Latin America. He wasn't open at all to my saying that 8000 ft. elevation was once below sea level for a very long time and got lifted by plates colliding.
The creation story in Genesis was just the best they could do with the knowledge they had at the time.
Realizing the creation story ain't quite right does not preclude the possibility of a supernatural God or creative force. I do believe there is such a God and that Jesus was who he claimed to be, and that the Jewish people are a miracle destined to rule the world.
Hastings,
IME Young Earth Creationist start with a conclusion, that effectively every word of the Bible is literally true and filter their "science", or "quest for the truth" through that lens.
It's true that realizing there something ain't right with the early Biblical stories does not preclude every supernatural creative force, but it does preclude the literalist Christian version.
Yes i believe in God and so as most humans since time immemorial
Humans seek explanations where none exist. Which is why we have countless contradictory stories of gods, creation myths, nature spirits, ghosts and goblins.
We don't know how the universe came about, if it is cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something we have yet to discover.
Faith is trusting in what you have good evidence to believe.
Many signs of historical criteria provide evidence of the historicity and reliability of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Signs of historical criteria like multiple attestation and eyewitness testimony, the criterion of embarrassment, textual overlap with independent ancient Jewish historians, and the presence of early oral creeds all testify that Jesus was a real Jewish person who lived in Judea, had followers, and was crucified (which is the scholarly consensus), as well as the finding of an empty tomb by women, followed by post-crucifixion appearances. It’s enough to more than get the attention of honest skeptical scholars.
You are repeating fallacies. The very essence of faith is to believe without evidence. Which is why religion is classified as a faith. Invoking evidence where none exists is a bogus tactic.
Antlers is completely correct.
…..and….as usual, you are completely wrong.
You just make up stuff and alter definitions to bolster your juvenile attempts at self-aggrandizement.
Crock.
The nature of faith has been explained to you numerous times, including Hebrews 11:1, which has nothing to do with justification through evidence, but clearly states that faith is its own justification, its own 'evidence.'
That you and antlers are incapable of understanding what is written is a testimony to the blindness of faith, where you see and interpret as you wish things to be, not how they are.
Given our limited understanding of the universe, we don't know what the probability of the existence of the universe is.
It may appear improbable to us, yet the universe exists and unlike God - whatever that's supposed to be - we have abundent evidence for its existence.
Unlike 'God,' a word without references or evidence, we need no faith to accept the reality of the universe.
You have exactly the same evidence of God as you have of the universe. You have not personally seen or experienced the universe. You don't know of anything outside your own experience except from what others tell you. You simply choose what you are willing to believe. The only difference is that the belief of the universe beyond your personal experience has not been believed nearly as long, or by as many people as the existence of God.
Nah, the universe, unlike God (whatever that is supposed to be), provides abundent evidence for its own existence.
When it comes to the countless versions of God or gods, it is the priests and what is written in old scrolls that tell us what we are supposed to believe.
Often the carrot and stick ploy, believe this or suffer the consequences.
Santa Claus for adults, get your reward or lack faith and miss out.
Faith is trusting in what you have good evidence to believe is true.
Many signs of historical criteria provide evidence of the historicity and reliability of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Signs of historical criteria like multiple attestation and eyewitness testimony, the criterion of embarrassment, textual overlap with independent ancient Jewish historians, and the presence of early oral creeds all testify that Jesus was a real Jewish person who lived in Judea, had followers, and was crucified (which is the scholarly consensus), as well as the finding of an empty tomb by women, followed by post-crucifixion appearances. It’s enough to more than get the attention of honest skeptical scholars.
Biblical faith is considered to be a trust and confidence in God based on evidence but without total proof. Jesus Himself said to “believe on the evidence.” But among all definitions of faith, the common theme is trust.
I think Antlers is right on that point.
Depends on how you define 'evidence.' If you define evidence as something written in old scrolls, then there is plenty of evidence for all sorts of wonders.
I think it is a form of evidence, but not sure if it would be "admissible evidence" as you can't cross-examine the author.
Especially since the Gospel authors were anonymous and written at least decades after the alleged events.
Which is not evidence at all, just someone writing down whatever was believed by that group in that time and place.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
scoony, I welcome your comments as important. Many answered the title question directly and simply, as did I. The tension grows when others deride or attack some of those responses. It is my observation that most of the believers do not take offense because others don't share their beliefs, but rather due to the nature of some posts - sometimes quite a few negative posts.
The example you cited above was my observation, ending with a question regarding the reason for that.
To understand how the name-calling develops in some of these threads one has to go back through the posts and find the roots - where it starts and by whom (usually predictable). Then, due to some of our human tendencies, others fight fire with fire. I don't see it as an example of a moral standard, but do think it is generally ineffective and useless, and not a good example to set. If that amounts to a mea culpa in the eyes of some, so be it.
But, that question about reason is cogent, and it remains.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
scoony, I welcome your comments as important. Many answered the title question directly and simply, as did I. The tension grows when others deride or attack some of those responses. It is my observation that most of the believers do not take offense because others don't share their beliefs, but rather due to the nature of some posts - sometimes quite a few negative posts.
The example you cited above was my observation, ending with a question regarding the reason for that.
To understand how the name-calling develops in some of these threads one has to go back through the posts and find the roots - where it starts and by whom (usually predictable). Then, due to some of our human tendencies, others fight fire with fire. I don't see it as an example of a moral standard, but do think it is generally ineffective and useless, and not a good example to set. If that amounts to a mea culpa in the eyes of some, so be it.
But, that question about reason is cogent, and it remains.
Lets check the tape and see where it started on this thread:
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Then the call out for hierocracy.
Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Get the Christians to follow the morals first....then see who follows.
A Christian calls out Catholics:
Originally Posted by TwoTall
I was raised catholic also so I understand what a bad first experience about religion you had. Catholic is a joke, it has nothing to do with Jesus or God. Find a good church that preaches the Bible, your life literally depends on it. Too not believe in God is foolish.
Here's my first post:
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
And here's the "Christian" response to it:
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
You've stated you don't many times. Move along with the rest of the fools.
I take issue with TwoTall. I am Catholic. Catholicism is the first Christianity. The first church. The church is actually the body of believers. Sadly the Catholic Church has had more than its share of bad actors but Catholicism itself is just fine thank you.
The defense of atheism is clearly to simply deny the evidence for God’s existence.
Not true. What you call evidence does not relate to how evidence is defined in logic, law, science or philosophy. You use your own special definition.
Evidence is a body of information that anyone can examine, test and verify. What is written in old scrolls about the gods and prophets cannot be verified.
Plus what is written about creation in genesis and other traditional stories is falsified by what we know about the universe, star and planetary formation and evolution.
Plus what is written about creation in genesis and other traditional stories is falsified by what we know about the universe, star and planetary formation and evolution.
I don’t think so. The big bang theory involves pure-energy expanding from nothingness, which is comparable to light-alone. "Let There be light" . Also, the teachings of Genesis were 5,000 years ago to people wo had no concept of history or science.
What is stated in Genesis was more general, but consistent with, creation over time-i.e. evolution of various life forms.
It is interesting that Genesis got it correct that life formed in the seas before on land. Could be a coincidence, but there was no science or fossil record back then to support that. The text got it right back then with no science back then to back it up. Coincidence?
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
scoony, I welcome your comments as important. Many answered the title question directly and simply, as did I. The tension grows when others deride or attack some of those responses. It is my observation that most of the believers do not take offense because others don't share their beliefs, but rather due to the nature of some posts - sometimes quite a few negative posts.
The example you cited above was my observation, ending with a question regarding the reason for that.
To understand how the name-calling develops in some of these threads one has to go back through the posts and find the roots - where it starts and by whom (usually predictable). Then, due to some of our human tendencies, others fight fire with fire. I don't see it as an example of a moral standard, but do think it is generally ineffective and useless, and not a good example to set. If that amounts to a mea culpa in the eyes of some, so be it.
But, that question about reason is cogent, and it remains.
What a pathetic, groveling, suck-arss P.O.S. Don't think you're going to talk your arss out of things on Judgement Day before God.
The atheists clearly just simply deny the evidence for the historicity and life of Jesus as well.
Originally Posted by EdM
Is that OK?
If one refuses to accept verifiable facts and verifiable reality, that’s OK with me. But refusing to accept verifiable facts and verifiable reality is essentially an irrational action and position.
The assertion that you get all truth and evidence from logic, law, science or philosophy is a self-defeating claim. Very little from history can be repeatable; you can’t go into the lab and repeat history. We can’t go into the lab and stab Caesar again. If we’re gonna try and discover what happened in the past, we’ve got to rely on the testimony of the eyewitnesses and those who were there. We can’t go back in time and repeat the event itself. We cant go into the lab and kill Jesus again and then resurrect Him again.
The atheists clearly just simply deny the evidence for the historicity and life of Jesus as well.
Originally Posted by EdM
Is that OK?
If one refuses to accept verifiable facts and verifiable reality, that’s OK with me. But refusing to accept verifiable facts and verifiable reality is essentially an irrational action and position.
What are these 'verifiable facts' you speak of? Can you give examples and explain how they are verified.
Plus what is written about creation in genesis and other traditional stories is falsified by what we know about the universe, star and planetary formation and evolution.
I don’t think so. The big bang theory involves pure-energy expanding from nothingness, which is comparable to light-alone. "Let There be light" . Also, the teachings of Genesis were 5,000 years ago to people wo had no concept of history or science.
What is stated in Genesis was more general, but consistent with, creation over time-i.e. evolution of various life forms.
It is interesting that Genesis got it correct that life formed in the seas before on land. Could be a coincidence, but there was no science or fossil record back then to support that. The text got it right back then with no science back then to back it up. Coincidence?
That you don't think so means nothing when the creation account in genesis is compared to the scope, scale and age of the universe as science has discovered.
The atheists clearly just simply deny the evidence for the historicity and life of Jesus as well.
What you call evidence is simply what priests and scribes wrote on parchment. Something that's not testable or verifiable is not evidence, just stories.
You invoke the word evidence without regard for the truth, that what is written cannot be verified.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
scoony, I welcome your comments as important. Many answered the title question directly and simply, as did I. The tension grows when others deride or attack some of those responses. It is my observation that most of the believers do not take offense because others don't share their beliefs, but rather due to the nature of some posts - sometimes quite a few negative posts.
The example you cited above was my observation, ending with a question regarding the reason for that.
To understand how the name-calling develops in some of these threads one has to go back through the posts and find the roots - where it starts and by whom (usually predictable). Then, due to some of our human tendencies, others fight fire with fire. I don't see it as an example of a moral standard, but do think it is generally ineffective and useless, and not a good example to set. If that amounts to a mea culpa in the eyes of some, so be it.
But, that question about reason is cogent, and it remains.
Lets check the tape and see where it started on this thread:
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Then the call out for hierocracy.
Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Get the Christians to follow the morals first....then see who follows.
A Christian calls out Catholics:
Originally Posted by TwoTall
I was raised catholic also so I understand what a bad first experience about religion you had. Catholic is a joke, it has nothing to do with Jesus or God. Find a good church that preaches the Bible, your life literally depends on it. Too not believe in God is foolish.
Here's my first post:
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
And here's the "Christian" response to it:
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
You've stated you don't many times. Move along with the rest of the fools.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
scoony, I welcome your comments as important. Many answered the title question directly and simply, as did I. The tension grows when others deride or attack some of those responses. It is my observation that most of the believers do not take offense because others don't share their beliefs, but rather due to the nature of some posts - sometimes quite a few negative posts.
The example you cited above was my observation, ending with a question regarding the reason for that.
To understand how the name-calling develops in some of these threads one has to go back through the posts and find the roots - where it starts and by whom (usually predictable). Then, due to some of our human tendencies, others fight fire with fire. I don't see it as an example of a moral standard, but do think it is generally ineffective and useless, and not a good example to set. If that amounts to a mea culpa in the eyes of some, so be it.
But, that question about reason is cogent, and it remains.
What a pathetic, groveling, suck-arss P.O.S. Don't think you're going to talk your arss out of things on Judgement Day before God.
Not only is your post vulgar and disrespectful, but it again reeks of assumed superiority and pretend control of God's actions. And - it's beginning to seem like you are an Aussie.
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
CCCCCC is just like a believer moth with Karen tendencies - it's his flame and everyone else should stay away from it. LOL!!!
Yes i believe in God and so as most humans since time immemorial
Really? Which one? The Christian god has only been around for 2000 years or so and is a basically a new god on the block. Many stories in the bible have been pinched and modified from earlier religion belief versions (eg flood, resurrection).
Humans have been around for 300,000 years or so - it's a rather bold statement to suggest that we've always believed in a god/s. There are articles that suggest that humans didn't start making up gods until about 40,000 years ago, and consolidation into early religions at around 11,000 years ago.
Debating God is a fools' errand to begin with. But an entertaining madness with pseudo Christians dissecting Biblical minutia instead, to bolster their lofty opinions of their own righteousness. The most obvious evidence of God is manifest indifference. We are a pitiful blip in the history of a 4.6 billion year old fleck of dust, floating in the forgotten vastness of limitless space. We can know peace and call it God, or surrender in silent humility. Or is that repetition?
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
scoony, I welcome your comments as important. Many answered the title question directly and simply, as did I. The tension grows when others deride or attack some of those responses. It is my observation that most of the believers do not take offense because others don't share their beliefs, but rather due to the nature of some posts - sometimes quite a few negative posts.
The example you cited above was my observation, ending with a question regarding the reason for that.
To understand how the name-calling develops in some of these threads one has to go back through the posts and find the roots - where it starts and by whom (usually predictable). Then, due to some of our human tendencies, others fight fire with fire. I don't see it as an example of a moral standard, but do think it is generally ineffective and useless, and not a good example to set. If that amounts to a mea culpa in the eyes of some, so be it.
But, that question about reason is cogent, and it remains.
Lets check the tape and see where it started on this thread:
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Then the call out for hierocracy.
Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Get the Christians to follow the morals first....then see who follows.
A Christian calls out Catholics:
Originally Posted by TwoTall
I was raised catholic also so I understand what a bad first experience about religion you had. Catholic is a joke, it has nothing to do with Jesus or God. Find a good church that preaches the Bible, your life literally depends on it. Too not believe in God is foolish.
Here's my first post:
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
And here's the "Christian" response to it:
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
You've stated you don't many times. Move along with the rest of the fools.
You have a very selective memory.
Where was the name-calling?
It's right there for you to read with your own eyes.
If you choose to participate in the New Covenant that Jesus established (and He’s invited you to do so), and if you choose to have a personal relationship with your Creator (and He’s invited you to do so), and if you choose to follow Jesus’ teachings (and He’s invited you to do so), then your life will be better, and you will be better at life.
The best aspect of being a believer to me is Praying.
I find praying to be the most relaxing and rewarding form of meditation. I believe in the power of prayer and enjoy praying for members here when a prayer is requested.
Nothing wrong with sending Positive and Good Vibes out into the Universe.
God's activity in the Old Testament doesn't fit with the “love your enemies” from Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount. You don’t see a lotta enemy love goin’ on when you read the Old Testament. And it’s not because there’s two different God’s. The covenant that Jesus made is a brand-new covenant.
They are all the same, right?
The only thing that changed is people were having a hard time keeping up with the requirements of the Old Testament. It was changed so that people could feel good about being bad without all the hard work.
I'm surprised by the amount of non believers here.
And the gun owners who hate President Trump so much! WOW! Go sell your guns and go be liberal elsewhere!!
For the record I believe in God and his son!!!!!
This may be a bit selfish but I'm glad the non-believers are sorting themselves out. I don't like people to begin with, and I can't stand crowds. Not at all sorry they'll go their seperate way.
If you choose to participate in the New Covenant that Jesus established (and He’s invited you to do so), and if you choose to have a personal relationship with your Creator (and He’s invited you to do so), and if you choose to follow Jesus’ teachings (and He’s invited you to do so), then your life will be better, and you will be better at life.
Tell that to the parents who just lost a child to cancer or an accident and you are liable to get your azz beat.
If you choose to participate in the New Covenant that Jesus established (and He’s invited you to do so), and if you choose to have a personal relationship with your Creator (and He’s invited you to do so), and if you choose to follow Jesus’ teachings (and He’s invited you to do so), then your life will be better, and you will be better at life.
Tell that to the parents who just lost a child to cancer or an accident and you are liable to get your azz beat.
Not unless those parents have been taught by idiots to believe that God is responsible for every good or bad thing that happens.
If you choose to participate in the New Covenant that Jesus established (and He’s invited you to do so), and if you choose to have a personal relationship with your Creator (and He’s invited you to do so), and if you choose to follow Jesus’ teachings (and He’s invited you to do so), then your life will be better, and you will be better at life.
Tell that to the parents who just lost a child to cancer or an accident and you are liable to get your azz beat.
By my experiences, that is simply not an accurate statement. Quite the opposite I would think.
But I am a believer. So, I am taught to not lean on my own understanding. Although not my child, I have stood in the gap for my sister for close to 15 years now. I can assure you, her faith as grown from her loss. When all of what a person defines themselves as is stripped away, and all you have left is faith in God, then faith is what we surrender to.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
scoony, I welcome your comments as important. Many answered the title question directly and simply, as did I. The tension grows when others deride or attack some of those responses. It is my observation that most of the believers do not take offense because others don't share their beliefs, but rather due to the nature of some posts - sometimes quite a few negative posts.
The example you cited above was my observation, ending with a question regarding the reason for that.
To understand how the name-calling develops in some of these threads one has to go back through the posts and find the roots - where it starts and by whom (usually predictable). Then, due to some of our human tendencies, others fight fire with fire. I don't see it as an example of a moral standard, but do think it is generally ineffective and useless, and not a good example to set. If that amounts to a mea culpa in the eyes of some, so be it.
But, that question about reason is cogent, and it remains.
Lets check the tape and see where it started on this thread:
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Then the call out for hierocracy.
Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Get the Christians to follow the morals first....then see who follows.
A Christian calls out Catholics:
Originally Posted by TwoTall
I was raised catholic also so I understand what a bad first experience about religion you had. Catholic is a joke, it has nothing to do with Jesus or God. Find a good church that preaches the Bible, your life literally depends on it. Too not believe in God is foolish.
Here's my first post:
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
And here's the "Christian" response to it:
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
You've stated you don't many times. Move along with the rest of the fools.
You have a very selective memory.
Where was the name-calling?
It's right there for you to read with your own eyes.
Move along with the rest of the fools.
Not the case. You are misrepresenting and faking again.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
scoony, I welcome your comments as important. Many answered the title question directly and simply, as did I. The tension grows when others deride or attack some of those responses. It is my observation that most of the believers do not take offense because others don't share their beliefs, but rather due to the nature of some posts - sometimes quite a few negative posts.
The example you cited above was my observation, ending with a question regarding the reason for that.
To understand how the name-calling develops in some of these threads one has to go back through the posts and find the roots - where it starts and by whom (usually predictable). Then, due to some of our human tendencies, others fight fire with fire. I don't see it as an example of a moral standard, but do think it is generally ineffective and useless, and not a good example to set. If that amounts to a mea culpa in the eyes of some, so be it.
But, that question about reason is cogent, and it remains.
Lets check the tape and see where it started on this thread:
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Then the call out for hierocracy.
Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Get the Christians to follow the morals first....then see who follows.
A Christian calls out Catholics:
Originally Posted by TwoTall
I was raised catholic also so I understand what a bad first experience about religion you had. Catholic is a joke, it has nothing to do with Jesus or God. Find a good church that preaches the Bible, your life literally depends on it. Too not believe in God is foolish.
Here's my first post:
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
And here's the "Christian" response to it:
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
You've stated you don't many times. Move along with the rest of the fools.
You have a very selective memory.
Where was the name-calling?
It's right there for you to read with your own eyes.
Move along with the rest of the fools.
Not the case. You are misrepresenting and faking again.
That's one of the most dishonest things Christians do. "I didn't say you're a fool, God did" or "I didn't threaten to burn you forever, God did.", or oven better, "Your choosing to be burned forever".
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
scoony, I welcome your comments as important. Many answered the title question directly and simply, as did I. The tension grows when others deride or attack some of those responses. It is my observation that most of the believers do not take offense because others don't share their beliefs, but rather due to the nature of some posts - sometimes quite a few negative posts.
The example you cited above was my observation, ending with a question regarding the reason for that.
To understand how the name-calling develops in some of these threads one has to go back through the posts and find the roots - where it starts and by whom (usually predictable). Then, due to some of our human tendencies, others fight fire with fire. I don't see it as an example of a moral standard, but do think it is generally ineffective and useless, and not a good example to set. If that amounts to a mea culpa in the eyes of some, so be it.
But, that question about reason is cogent, and it remains.
Lets check the tape and see where it started on this thread:
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Then the call out for hierocracy.
Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Get the Christians to follow the morals first....then see who follows.
A Christian calls out Catholics:
Originally Posted by TwoTall
I was raised catholic also so I understand what a bad first experience about religion you had. Catholic is a joke, it has nothing to do with Jesus or God. Find a good church that preaches the Bible, your life literally depends on it. Too not believe in God is foolish.
Here's my first post:
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
And here's the "Christian" response to it:
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
You've stated you don't many times. Move along with the rest of the fools.
You have a very selective memory.
Where was the name-calling?
It's right there for you to read with your own eyes.
Move along with the rest of the fools.
Not the case. You are misrepresenting and faking again.
That's one of the most dishonest things Christians do. "I didn't say you're a fool, God did" or "I didn't threaten to burn you forever, God did.", or oven better, "Your choosing to be burned forever".
I didn't say that you are a fool and haven't heard God say it either - but you are proving the fact here. A fellow can't read what isn't there. So, maybe you could move along with your fool crowd.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
CCCCCC is just like a believer moth with Karen tendencies - it's his flame and everyone else should stay away from it. LOL!!!
Ooops - you made up a message. It might be funny if it weren't so grossly wrong.
Please know that you and your ilk are sincerely welcomed to the flame, the sticky strips, the bait - whatever your yearning. You misstate the point and avoid the key question. You always arrive. The key question is why - the reason.
[quote=CCCC]Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
scoony, I welcome your comments as important. Many answered the title question directly and simply, as did I. The tension grows when others deride or attack some of those responses. It is my observation that most of the believers do not take offense because others don't share their beliefs, but rather due to the nature of some posts - sometimes quite a few negative posts.
The example you cited above was my observation, ending with a question regarding the reason for that.
To understand how the name-calling develops in some of these threads one has to go back through the posts and find the roots - where it starts and by whom (usually predictable). Then, due to some of our human tendencies, others fight fire with fire. I don't see it as an example of a moral standard, but do think it is generally ineffective and useless, and not a good example to set. If that amounts to a mea culpa in the eyes of some, so be it.
But, that question about reason is cogent, and it remains.
Lets check the tape and see where it started on this thread:
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Then the call out for hierocracy.
Originally Posted by Jim_Conrad
Originally Posted by gunchamp
Originally Posted by AKCHOPPER
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
Yes, I absolutely believe in God! And what you are saying is your opinion and nothing more. The world would be be much better place if we all followed Christian morals
Get the Christians to follow the morals first....then see who follows.
A Christian calls out Catholics:
Originally Posted by TwoTall
I was raised catholic also so I understand what a bad first experience about religion you had. Catholic is a joke, it has nothing to do with Jesus or God. Find a good church that preaches the Bible, your life literally depends on it. Too not believe in God is foolish.
Here's my first post:
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
And here's the "Christian" response to it:
Originally Posted by JGRaider
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Define "God".
You've stated you don't many times. Move along with the rest of the fools.
You have a very selective memory.
Where was the name-calling?
It's right there for you to read with your own eyes.
Move along with the rest of the fools.
Not the case. You are misrepresenting and faking again.
That's one of the most dishonest things Christians do. "I didn't say you're a fool, God did" or "I didn't threaten to burn you forever, God did.", or oven better, "Your choosing to be burned forever".
I didn't say that you are a fool and haven't heard God say it either - but you are proving the fact here. A fellow can't read what isn't there. So, maybe you could move along with your fool crowd.[/quote]
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
There is an aspect to biblical interpretation and both believers an unbelievers should be aware of... that is that ...all.... English language bibles are interpretations from original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
An example in Proverbs 1:7 ......... "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
The word "fear" is usually best seen as reverent awe and an attitude of honor toward God. The reading of the verse changes when the word "fear" is changed as follows:
"The attitude of awe and of acknowledging the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
But wait, there's more!
When we read the word "fool" we usually place out 21st century meaning upon it..... But, the Hebrew word for "fool" in the original is "nabal." The word "nabal" implies someone who is senseless, swith an empahsis on being willingly disobedient....in short, a rebellious attitude.
So, now look at Proverbs 1:7....
"An attitude of awe and of (willful obedience) before the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; The rebel despises wisdom and instruction."
Btw.... "eternal" sometimes means a "very long time." And, "eternal fire" sometimes means the powerful nature of the Word of God...... it can also be seen as the "eternal fire" of God's everlasting judgment.
Knowing that....how would one look at Acts 2:3-8....or Isaiah with the hot coal in his mouth....
"Eternal" and "Fire" are often used ...... symbolically.
Anyway I'm off to take a grandson fishing.....later... or tomorrow.....
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
The probability of the universe existing is 100%.
If you buy a ticket in USA Power Lotto, the chance of winning is one in many million perhaps when you buy the ticket. The fact that you may win, doesn't mean there was a 100% chance of you winning before you have won. The fact that the universe does ultimately exist because of the hand of God or because of something else, doesn't mean that there was 100% probability that it would exist, unless you can find irrefutable evidence that it was always going to be created or always existed, with no possibility of an alternate outcome.
There is an aspect to biblical interpretation and both believers an unbelievers should be aware of... that is that ...all.... English language bibles are interpretations from original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
An example in Proverbs 1:7 ......... "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
The word "fear" is usually best seen as reverent awe and an attitude of honor toward God. The reading of the verse changes when the word "fear" is changed as follows:
"The attitude of awe and of acknowledging the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
But wait, there's more!
When we read the word "fool" we usually place out 21st century meaning upon it..... But, the Hebrew word for "fool" in the original is "nabal." The word "nabal" implies someone who is senseless, swith an empahsis on being willingly disobedient....in short, a rebellious attitude.
So, now look at Proverbs 1:7....
"An attitude of awe and of (willful obedience) before the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; The rebel despises wisdom and instruction."
Btw.... "eternal" sometimes means a "very long time." And, "eternal fire" sometimes means the powerful nature of the Word of God...... it can also be seen as the "eternal fire" of God's everlasting judgment.
Knowing that....how would one look at Acts 2:3-8....or Isaiah with the hot coal in his mouth....
"Eternal" and "Fire" are often used ...... symbolically.
Anyway I'm off to take a grandson fishing.....later... or tomorrow.....
Yes, I mentioned in an earlier post the distortion of the meaning of the Bible due to language changes.
There is an aspect to biblical interpretation and both believers an unbelievers should be aware of... that is that ...all.... English language bibles are interpretations from original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
An example in Proverbs 1:7 ......... "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
The word "fear" is usually best seen as reverent awe and an attitude of honor toward God. The reading of the verse changes when the word "fear" is changed as follows:
"The attitude of awe and of acknowledging the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
But wait, there's more!
When we read the word "fool" we usually place out 21st century meaning upon it..... But, the Hebrew word for "fool" in the original is "nabal." The word "nabal" implies someone who is senseless, swith an empahsis on being willingly disobedient....in short, a rebellious attitude.
So, now look at Proverbs 1:7....
"An attitude of awe and of (willful obedience) before the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; The rebel despises wisdom and instruction."
Btw.... "eternal" sometimes means a "very long time." And, "eternal fire" sometimes means the powerful nature of the Word of God...... it can also be seen as the "eternal fire" of God's everlasting judgment.
Knowing that....how would one look at Acts 2:3-8....or Isaiah with the hot coal in his mouth....
"Eternal" and "Fire" are often used ...... symbolically.
Anyway I'm off to take a grandson fishing.....later... or tomorrow.....
Exactly.
And even the very first words of the Bible have been misinterpreted.
"In a beginning" as written in Hebrew, is often said as "In the beginning". Two totally different meanings. The wrong one implies only one beginning has occurred. The correct one says one of possibly many, or an infinite number. Puts persective on how we might see the creation of this world, or how many times this place might have been created before we came along.
The best aspect of being a believer to me is Praying.
I find praying to be the most relaxing and rewarding form of meditation. I believe in the power of prayer and enjoy praying for members here when a prayer is requested.
Nothing wrong with sending Positive and Good Vibes out into the Universe.
Agree entirely KillerBee. I am contemplating praying to God to suggest he make me a Deputy when I go to Heaven, so as to help clear the backlog of souls wanting to get into Heaven caused by the Covid-19 pandemic and the Ukrainian war. It would give God a chance to have a bit more leisure time. I know he will listen to me and not forget. Whether he agrees that it is a good idea is up to Him with His infinite wisdom. But there's a few on this thread that I may not be so lenient with as God may be.
There is an aspect to biblical interpretation and both believers an unbelievers should be aware of... that is that ...all.... English language bibles are interpretations from original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
An example in Proverbs 1:7 ......... "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
The word "fear" is usually best seen as reverent awe and an attitude of honor toward God. The reading of the verse changes when the word "fear" is changed as follows:
"The attitude of awe and of acknowledging the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
But wait, there's more!
When we read the word "fool" we usually place out 21st century meaning upon it..... But, the Hebrew word for "fool" in the original is "nabal." The word "nabal" implies someone who is senseless, swith an empahsis on being willingly disobedient....in short, a rebellious attitude.
So, now look at Proverbs 1:7....
"An attitude of awe and of (willful obedience) before the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; The rebel despises wisdom and instruction."
Btw.... "eternal" sometimes means a "very long time." And, "eternal fire" sometimes means the powerful nature of the Word of God...... it can also be seen as the "eternal fire" of God's everlasting judgment.
Knowing that....how would one look at Acts 2:3-8....or Isaiah with the hot coal in his mouth....
"Eternal" and "Fire" are often used ...... symbolically.
Anyway I'm off to take a grandson fishing.....later... or tomorrow.....
Exactly.
And even the very first words of the Bible have been misinterpreted.
"In a beginning" as written in Hebrew, is often said as "In the beginning". Two totally different meanings. The wrong one implies only one beginning has occurred. The correct one says one of possibly many, or an infinite number. Puts persective on how we might see the creation of this world, or how many times this place might have been created before we came along.
For an all knowing, all powerful god, he sure does have a lot of problems making himself understood. Maybe he needs to issue an updated, revised edition of his word in a modern language.
There is an aspect to biblical interpretation and both believers an unbelievers should be aware of... that is that ...all.... English language bibles are interpretations from original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
An example in Proverbs 1:7 ......... "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
The word "fear" is usually best seen as reverent awe and an attitude of honor toward God. The reading of the verse changes when the word "fear" is changed as follows:
"The attitude of awe and of acknowledging the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
But wait, there's more!
When we read the word "fool" we usually place out 21st century meaning upon it..... But, the Hebrew word for "fool" in the original is "nabal." The word "nabal" implies someone who is senseless, swith an empahsis on being willingly disobedient....in short, a rebellious attitude.
So, now look at Proverbs 1:7....
"An attitude of awe and of (willful obedience) before the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; The rebel despises wisdom and instruction."
Btw.... "eternal" sometimes means a "very long time." And, "eternal fire" sometimes means the powerful nature of the Word of God...... it can also be seen as the "eternal fire" of God's everlasting judgment.
Knowing that....how would one look at Acts 2:3-8....or Isaiah with the hot coal in his mouth....
"Eternal" and "Fire" are often used ...... symbolically.
Anyway I'm off to take a grandson fishing.....later... or tomorrow.....
Exactly.
And even the very first words of the Bible have been misinterpreted.
"In a beginning" as written in Hebrew, is often said as "In the beginning". Two totally different meanings. The wrong one implies only one beginning has occurred. The correct one says one of possibly many, or an infinite number. Puts persective on how we might see the creation of this world, or how many times this place might have been created before we came along.
For an all knowing, all powerful god, he sure does have a lot of problems making himself understood. Maybe he needs to issue an updated, revised edition of his word in a modern language.
It is man that has caused the problem by distorting His word when they write it down.
There is an aspect to biblical interpretation and both believers an unbelievers should be aware of... that is that ...all.... English language bibles are interpretations from original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
An example in Proverbs 1:7 ......... "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
The word "fear" is usually best seen as reverent awe and an attitude of honor toward God. The reading of the verse changes when the word "fear" is changed as follows:
"The attitude of awe and of acknowledging the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
But wait, there's more!
When we read the word "fool" we usually place out 21st century meaning upon it..... But, the Hebrew word for "fool" in the original is "nabal." The word "nabal" implies someone who is senseless, swith an empahsis on being willingly disobedient....in short, a rebellious attitude.
So, now look at Proverbs 1:7....
"An attitude of awe and of (willful obedience) before the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; The rebel despises wisdom and instruction."
Btw.... "eternal" sometimes means a "very long time." And, "eternal fire" sometimes means the powerful nature of the Word of God...... it can also be seen as the "eternal fire" of God's everlasting judgment.
Knowing that....how would one look at Acts 2:3-8....or Isaiah with the hot coal in his mouth....
"Eternal" and "Fire" are often used ...... symbolically.
Anyway I'm off to take a grandson fishing.....later... or tomorrow.....
Exactly.
And even the very first words of the Bible have been misinterpreted.
"In a beginning" as written in Hebrew, is often said as "In the beginning". Two totally different meanings. The wrong one implies only one beginning has occurred. The correct one says one of possibly many, or an infinite number. Puts persective on how we might see the creation of this world, or how many times this place might have been created before we came along.
For an all knowing, all powerful god, he sure does have a lot of problems making himself understood. Maybe he needs to issue an updated, revised edition of his word in a modern language.
It is man that has caused the problem by distorting His word when they write it down.
So when people say they are following the word of God as presented in the Bible, they are really saying they are following what some people wrote thousands of years ago, with uncertain motivations, in a different language, in a different culture, with a completely different understanding of the universe and all that it contains. I would agree with that.
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
The probability of the universe existing is 100%.
Reminds me of an old Will Rogers story, he had to "prove" to the census office he was born with a birth certificate. He was born on Indian Territory and did not have a birth certificate...........his comments were something like "well, where I'm from, if a man is standing and talking to you, it's proof he was born" LOL
I don't. I was raised Catholic because of my Mom, at around age 14 we could make our own decision. Both of my sisters did the same thing. My Father a retired Earth scientist has always been an atheist. My first day in catechism, which I believe was in fourth grade. The teacher started telling the story of Noah's Ark. Even at that age I thought this is a bunch of bullshit! My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.
I doesn't bother me that People practice religion. It's just extremely upsetting of the devious side of it. Alway's wondered how many members feel the same.
There is an aspect to biblical interpretation and both believers an unbelievers should be aware of... that is that ...all.... English language bibles are interpretations from original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
An example in Proverbs 1:7 ......... "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
The word "fear" is usually best seen as reverent awe and an attitude of honor toward God. The reading of the verse changes when the word "fear" is changed as follows:
"The attitude of awe and of acknowledging the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."
But wait, there's more!
When we read the word "fool" we usually place out 21st century meaning upon it..... But, the Hebrew word for "fool" in the original is "nabal." The word "nabal" implies someone who is senseless, swith an empahsis on being willingly disobedient....in short, a rebellious attitude.
So, now look at Proverbs 1:7....
"An attitude of awe and of (willful obedience) before the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; The rebel despises wisdom and instruction."
Btw.... "eternal" sometimes means a "very long time." And, "eternal fire" sometimes means the powerful nature of the Word of God...... it can also be seen as the "eternal fire" of God's everlasting judgment.
Knowing that....how would one look at Acts 2:3-8....or Isaiah with the hot coal in his mouth....
"Eternal" and "Fire" are often used ...... symbolically.
Anyway I'm off to take a grandson fishing.....later... or tomorrow.....
Exactly.
And even the very first words of the Bible have been misinterpreted.
"In a beginning" as written in Hebrew, is often said as "In the beginning". Two totally different meanings. The wrong one implies only one beginning has occurred. The correct one says one of possibly many, or an infinite number. Puts persective on how we might see the creation of this world, or how many times this place might have been created before we came along.
For an all knowing, all powerful god, he sure does have a lot of problems making himself understood. Maybe he needs to issue an updated, revised edition of his word in a modern language.
It is man that has caused the problem by distorting His word when they write it down.
So the all powerful God couldn't "inspire" them to get it correct?
Are you Going to Heaven? Go to Heavenornot.net to Know for sure
This is why I do not participate in Organized Religion. I will pray alone!
I can only imagine what they say on their website.
Deluxe Package $20,000.00 USD: Immediate Access Granted to Heaven and an hour visit with God and Jesus, with no review of your life.
Custom Package $10,000.00 CDN: Access granted guaranteed within 2 years of Death, full review of your live streaming in 4k, so you will see in real colors how you really F'ed up, and 20 minutes with Jesus.
Rube Package $5,000 Peso: Access to Heaven after lingering in Purgatory for 10,000 years. No visit with God or Jesus, and you have to spend 1,000 years 24/7 with each X-WIFE you had on earth.
There's often ambiguity in the written language. Even with such a simple thing as saying the probability of the universe existing is very low. Some people interpret the probability after the event that is improbable, happened. It would be better if mathematics and equations could be used instead of ambiguous words and sentences.
There's often ambiguity in the written language. Even with such a simple thing as saying the probability of the universe existing is very low. Some people interpret the probability after the event that is improbable, happened. It would be better if mathematics and equations could be used instead of ambiguous words and sentences.
Unfortunately, at this time we only have a sample of one, which is not sufficient for proper statistical analysis.
With no proper analysis we claim the probability of universes forming is low, but what if the opposite is true. What if we do exist in a multiverse, and the conditions of the multiverse are such that the creation of new universes is not a rarity but infinitely common?
I didn't say that you are a fool and haven't heard God say it either - but you are proving the fact here. A fellow can't read what isn't there. So, maybe you could move along with your fool crowd.
Now you're just being dishonest.
There is zero evidence to support that statement (zilch) and even to support such a belief on your part (if you actually do believe it), but you have presented the evidence of your foolishness, and evasiveness when it came to that tough question.
The best aspect of being a believer to me is Praying.
I find praying to be the most relaxing and rewarding form of meditation. I believe in the power of prayer and enjoy praying for members here when a prayer is requested.
Nothing wrong with sending Positive and Good Vibes out into the Universe.
Agree entirely KillerBee. I am contemplating praying to God to suggest he make me a Deputy when I go to Heaven, so as to help clear the backlog of souls wanting to get into Heaven caused by the Covid-19 pandemic and the Ukrainian war. It would give God a chance to have a bit more leisure time. I know he will listen to me and not forget. Whether he agrees that it is a good idea is up to Him with His infinite wisdom. But there's a few on this thread that I may not be so lenient with as God may be.
Lets' hear a brass fanfare for these expressed delusions of grandeur.
I think everyone on this thread should ignore the troll called See-See-See-But-Don't-See. His posts are deliberately provocative, he tries to bait quite a few people on this thread, he posts crap on lots of different threads but never says anything of value. Just ignore his posts and don't respond, that's what I do.
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
The probability of the universe existing is 100%.
If you buy a ticket in USA Power Lotto, the chance of winning is one in many million perhaps when you buy the ticket. The fact that you may win, doesn't mean there was a 100% chance of you winning before you have won. The fact that the universe does ultimately exist because of the hand of God or because of something else, doesn't mean that there was 100% probability that it would exist, unless you can find irrefutable evidence that it was always going to be created or always existed, with no possibility of an alternate outcome.
You have insufficient data to calculate the probability of our universe existing.
You have no substantiation of there only being two options that you list - the guess fest would be an infinite free for all. Creation alone has many versions - none make sense, none have supporting evidence and they all use magic.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
CCCCCC is just like a believer moth with Karen tendencies - it's his flame and everyone else should stay away from it. LOL!!!
Ooops - you made up a message. It might be funny if it weren't so grossly wrong.
Please know that you and your ilk are sincerely welcomed to the flame, the sticky strips, the bait - whatever your yearning. You misstate the point and avoid the key question. You always arrive. The key question is why - the reason.
The question was answered, and your Karen highschool drama tactics are inert and futile.
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
The probability of the universe existing is 100%.
If you buy a ticket in USA Power Lotto, the chance of winning is one in many million perhaps when you buy the ticket. The fact that you may win, doesn't mean there was a 100% chance of you winning before you have won. The fact that the universe does ultimately exist because of the hand of God or because of something else, doesn't mean that there was 100% probability that it would exist, unless you can find irrefutable evidence that it was always going to be created or always existed, with no possibility of an alternate outcome.
You have insufficient data to calculate the probability of our universe existing.
You have no substantiation of there only being two options that you list - the guess fest would be an infinite free for all. Creation alone has many versions - none make sense, none have supporting evidence and they all use magic.
The atheist model, results in a situation that is currently taking place in your country. People turn away from God, have no moral compass, sodomy is rife, abortion is rife for those few remaining people who have heterosexual relationships, unmarried mothers are rife resulting in a huge proportion of uneducated, unintelligent delinquents. Because of the low birthrate caused by rife sodomy, and some of the other factors I mentioned, the society that you knew as a young man has been replaced by a completely different society comprised of Indians, Asians, Middle Eastern and black African people. So the atheist model does not result in a better outcome at all.
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
The probability of the universe existing is 100%.
If you buy a ticket in USA Power Lotto, the chance of winning is one in many million perhaps when you buy the ticket. The fact that you may win, doesn't mean there was a 100% chance of you winning before you have won. The fact that the universe does ultimately exist because of the hand of God or because of something else, doesn't mean that there was 100% probability that it would exist, unless you can find irrefutable evidence that it was always going to be created or always existed, with no possibility of an alternate outcome.
You have insufficient data to calculate the probability of our universe existing.
You have no substantiation of there only being two options that you list - the guess fest would be an infinite free for all. Creation alone has many versions - none make sense, none have supporting evidence and they all use magic.
The atheist model, results in a situation that is currently taking place in your country. People turn away from God, have no moral compass, sodomy is rife, abortion is rife for those few remaining people who have heterosexual relationships, unmarried mothers are rife resulting in a huge proportion of uneducated, unintelligent delinquents. Because of the low birthrate caused by rife sodomy, and some of the other factors I mentioned, the society that you knew as a young man has been replaced by a completely different society comprised of Indians, Asians, Middle Eastern and black African people. So the atheist model does not result in a better outcome at all.
Data shows that secular societies generally do better añd have greater life satisfaction. Being free of the objective immoralities of the various religous doctrines is a big plus, and is one of the reasons why your constitution was written to ensure a secular government. Your country has too many Christian zeolots that seem to be driving many of the problems that you have over there.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
CCCCCC is just like a believer moth with Karen tendencies - it's his flame and everyone else should stay away from it. LOL!!!
Ooops - you made up a message. It might be funny if it weren't so grossly wrong.
Please know that you and your ilk are sincerely welcomed to the flame, the sticky strips, the bait - whatever your yearning. You misstate the point and avoid the key question. You always arrive. The key question is why - the reason.
The question was answered, and your Karen highschool drama tactics are inert and futile.
More blah, blah, blah - ad hominem attack but nothing substantive for the reason, the driver. So, go ahead - break ranks - spout out the real reason. The catharsis might enable you to feel better - relief at last. C'mon - you can do it>
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
The probability of the universe existing is 100%.
If you buy a ticket in USA Power Lotto, the chance of winning is one in many million perhaps when you buy the ticket. The fact that you may win, doesn't mean there was a 100% chance of you winning before you have won. The fact that the universe does ultimately exist because of the hand of God or because of something else, doesn't mean that there was 100% probability that it would exist, unless you can find irrefutable evidence that it was always going to be created or always existed, with no possibility of an alternate outcome.
You have insufficient data to calculate the probability of our universe existing.
You have no substantiation of there only being two options that you list - the guess fest would be an infinite free for all. Creation alone has many versions - none make sense, none have supporting evidence and they all use magic.
The atheist model, results in a situation that is currently taking place in your country. People turn away from God, have no moral compass, sodomy is rife, abortion is rife for those few remaining people who have heterosexual relationships, unmarried mothers are rife resulting in a huge proportion of uneducated, unintelligent delinquents. Because of the low birthrate caused by rife sodomy, and some of the other factors I mentioned, the society that you knew as a young man has been replaced by a completely different society comprised of Indians, Asians, Middle Eastern and black African people. So the atheist model does not result in a better outcome at all.
Data shows that secular societies generally do better añd have greater life satisfaction. Being free of the objective immoralities of the various religous doctrines is a big plus, and is one of the reasons why your constitution was written to ensure a secular government. Your country has too many Christian zeolots that seem to be driving many of the problems that you have over there.
But your society has self-destructed! It does not exist anymore. What has replaced it are people who worship the Hindu god Visnu, Muslems etc
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
CCCCCC is just like a believer moth with Karen tendencies - it's his flame and everyone else should stay away from it. LOL!!!
Ooops - you made up a message. It might be funny if it weren't so grossly wrong.
Please know that you and your ilk are sincerely welcomed to the flame, the sticky strips, the bait - whatever your yearning. You misstate the point and avoid the key question. You always arrive. The key question is why - the reason.
The question was answered, and your Karen highschool drama tactics are inert and futile.
More blah, blah, blah - ad hominem attack but nothing substantive for the reason, the driver. So, go ahead - break ranks - spout out the real reason. The catharsis might enable you to feel better - relief at last. C'mon - you can do it>
The question was answered - now go back to your dunce corner and re-read this thread for enlightenment.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
CCCCCC is just like a believer moth with Karen tendencies - it's his flame and everyone else should stay away from it. LOL!!!
Ooops - you made up a message. It might be funny if it weren't so grossly wrong.
Please know that you and your ilk are sincerely welcomed to the flame, the sticky strips, the bait - whatever your yearning. You misstate the point and avoid the key question. You always arrive. The key question is why - the reason.
The question was answered, and your Karen highschool drama tactics are inert and futile.
More blah, blah, blah - ad hominem attack but nothing substantive for the reason, the driver. So, go ahead - break ranks - spout out the real reason. The catharsis might enable you to feel better - relief at last. C'mon - you can do it>
The question was answered - now go back to your dunce corner and re-read this thread for enlightenment.
Hey Mauser, why don't you stop feeding the troll? He thrives on people responding to his baiting.
I think everyone on this thread should ignore the troll called See-See-See-But-Don't-See. His posts are deliberately provocative, he tries to bait quite a few people on this thread, he posts crap on lots of different threads but never says anything of value. Just ignore his posts and don't respond, that's what I do.
Another vapid pronouncement by the embarrassed pretender - the one who says he can chastise God, name God as "disgusting", tell God what He should do, and tell God who should be given entry to Heaven. All posted by this same delusional dude in this very thread. If he is so powerful and important, one would think he would simply command and accomplish what he thinks should be done. Waiting to witness the power of the superior human.
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
The probability of the universe existing is 100%.
If you buy a ticket in USA Power Lotto, the chance of winning is one in many million perhaps when you buy the ticket. The fact that you may win, doesn't mean there was a 100% chance of you winning before you have won. The fact that the universe does ultimately exist because of the hand of God or because of something else, doesn't mean that there was 100% probability that it would exist, unless you can find irrefutable evidence that it was always going to be created or always existed, with no possibility of an alternate outcome.
You have insufficient data to calculate the probability of our universe existing.
You have no substantiation of there only being two options that you list - the guess fest would be an infinite free for all. Creation alone has many versions - none make sense, none have supporting evidence and they all use magic.
The atheist model, results in a situation that is currently taking place in your country. People turn away from God, have no moral compass, sodomy is rife, abortion is rife for those few remaining people who have heterosexual relationships, unmarried mothers are rife resulting in a huge proportion of uneducated, unintelligent delinquents. Because of the low birthrate caused by rife sodomy, and some of the other factors I mentioned, the society that you knew as a young man has been replaced by a completely different society comprised of Indians, Asians, Middle Eastern and black African people. So the atheist model does not result in a better outcome at all.
Data shows that secular societies generally do better añd have greater life satisfaction. Being free of the objective immoralities of the various religous doctrines is a big plus, and is one of the reasons why your constitution was written to ensure a secular government. Your country has too many Christian zeolots that seem to be driving many of the problems that you have over there.
But your society has self-destructed! It does not exist anymore. What has replaced it are people who worship Hindu gods Visnu, Muslems etc
We have problems but our society is less shit than yours IMHO.
And, thank god, Christianity is on the decline. Any religion is destructive when it reaches critical mass and becomes self-aware.
Like moths to a flame, like flies to sticky strips, like hungry rodents - - - - the atheists, God deniers, Christian-baiters, devil reps and angry others seem to scramble onto threads like this. And, for what reason?
Dang! Lots or name calling here. Fine example of some moral standards to follow?
The title of this thread asks a question, one that all can answer. The believers are just as drawn to this as the non-believers, probably more so. Seems that you all take offense to the fact that others don’t share your beliefs in a super natural being.
CCCCCC is just like a believer moth with Karen tendencies - it's his flame and everyone else should stay away from it. LOL!!!
Ooops - you made up a message. It might be funny if it weren't so grossly wrong.
Please know that you and your ilk are sincerely welcomed to the flame, the sticky strips, the bait - whatever your yearning. You misstate the point and avoid the key question. You always arrive. The key question is why - the reason.
The question was answered, and your Karen highschool drama tactics are inert and futile.
More blah, blah, blah - ad hominem attack but nothing substantive for the reason, the driver. So, go ahead - break ranks - spout out the real reason. The catharsis might enable you to feel better - relief at last. C'mon - you can do it>
The question was answered - now go back to your dunce corner and re-read this thread for enlightenment.
Hey Mauser, why don't you stop feeding the troll? He thrives on people responding to his baiting.
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
The probability of the universe existing is 100%.
If you buy a ticket in USA Power Lotto, the chance of winning is one in many million perhaps when you buy the ticket. The fact that you may win, doesn't mean there was a 100% chance of you winning before you have won. The fact that the universe does ultimately exist because of the hand of God or because of something else, doesn't mean that there was 100% probability that it would exist, unless you can find irrefutable evidence that it was always going to be created or always existed, with no possibility of an alternate outcome.
You have insufficient data to calculate the probability of our universe existing.
You have no substantiation of there only being two options that you list - the guess fest would be an infinite free for all. Creation alone has many versions - none make sense, none have supporting evidence and they all use magic.
The atheist model, results in a situation that is currently taking place in your country. People turn away from God, have no moral compass, sodomy is rife, abortion is rife for those few remaining people who have heterosexual relationships, unmarried mothers are rife resulting in a huge proportion of uneducated, unintelligent delinquents. Because of the low birthrate caused by rife sodomy, and some of the other factors I mentioned, the society that you knew as a young man has been replaced by a completely different society comprised of Indians, Asians, Middle Eastern and black African people. So the atheist model does not result in a better outcome at all.
Data shows that secular societies generally do better añd have greater life satisfaction. Being free of the objective immoralities of the various religous doctrines is a big plus, and is one of the reasons why your constitution was written to ensure a secular government. Your country has too many Christian zeolots that seem to be driving many of the problems that you have over there.
But your society has self-destructed! It does not exist anymore. What has replaced it are people who worship Hindu gods Visnu, Muslems etc
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
The probability of the universe existing is 100%.
If you buy a ticket in USA Power Lotto, the chance of winning is one in many million perhaps when you buy the ticket. The fact that you may win, doesn't mean there was a 100% chance of you winning before you have won. The fact that the universe does ultimately exist because of the hand of God or because of something else, doesn't mean that there was 100% probability that it would exist, unless you can find irrefutable evidence that it was always going to be created or always existed, with no possibility of an alternate outcome.
You have insufficient data to calculate the probability of our universe existing.
You have no substantiation of there only being two options that you list - the guess fest would be an infinite free for all. Creation alone has many versions - none make sense, none have supporting evidence and they all use magic.
The atheist model, results in a situation that is currently taking place in your country. People turn away from God, have no moral compass, sodomy is rife, abortion is rife for those few remaining people who have heterosexual relationships, unmarried mothers are rife resulting in a huge proportion of uneducated, unintelligent delinquents. Because of the low birthrate caused by rife sodomy, and some of the other factors I mentioned, the society that you knew as a young man has been replaced by a completely different society comprised of Indians, Asians, Middle Eastern and black African people. So the atheist model does not result in a better outcome at all.
That data disagrees with you.
Who constitutes the largest customer base for Only Fans content? White, Christian, men. Highest incidence of porn addition, same.
When we look at nearly any marker of wellbeing, income, abortion rates, single motherhood, drug use, pick one, it doesn't really matter, the more fundamentalist the population the worse the outcome.
If we hold the just income and normalize for other variable, highest earners are Atheist, followed Jews, Christians, Hindu's, Buddhist, Muslims, and last is your primitive, tribal type religions.
The forces that changed dating so much are easy transportation, modern birth control, and the cell phone/dating apps/social media.
There is science and then there’s the cult of science. Does God exist? A truly scientific mind that doesn’t believe in God says “I don’t know.”. Atheists aren’t truly scientific minds. There’s more than intelligence involved. There’s the ability to avoid prejudice and bias and atheists lack that ability.
In fact, they strongly rely on religious proportions of faith in their own preconceived notion. Otherwise, intelligent design would be considered possible. Thinly veiling atheistic confirmation bias by treating theories as laws is not science. It is using the cult of science to falsely validate one’s belief as an indisputable fact. A person can state there is no possibility of an intelligent designer, but they can’t call that approach scientific without breaking their own rules.
You may not believe in God while you’re in mortal form, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Whatever side you fall on requires faith.
There is science and then there’s the cult of science. Does god exist? A truly scientific mind that doesn’t believe in God says “I don’t know.”. Atheists aren’t truly scientific minds. There’s more than intelligence involved. There’s the ability to avoid prejudice and bias and atheists lack that ability.
In fact, they strongly rely on religious proportions of faith in their own preconceived notion. Otherwise, intelligent design would be considered possible. Thinly veiling atheistic confirmation bias by treating theories as laws is not science. It is using the cult of science to falsely validate one’s belief as an indisputable fact. A person can state there is no possibility of an intelligent designer, but they can’t call that approach scientific without breaking their own rules.
You may not believe in God while you’re in mortal form, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Whatever side you fall on requires faith.
If humans are so complex they require design, and God is more complex that humans, who designed God?
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
I can't believe that he is so dumb, that on another thread he admits he is not very smart. A real Forrest Gump!
To be fair, CCCC is actually a very smart guy. I believe he has at least a PHD in Music, and perhaps a second in something else. In certain music circles he's well known and respected. In this thread he got bested by his emotions and lost his composure, which for him is rare thing.
The sum of a man's character is not measured on single subject, nor on a particularly off day for him.
If humans are so complex they require design, and God is more complex that humans, who designed God?
Complexity is a subjective term and I don’t understand how it’s more scientifically applicable to intelligent design than evolution. As far as question of “Who designed God?”, Christian faith suggests faith in His eternal existence . True science requires us to say “I don’t know”. Atheism claims “Gotcha”.
If humans are so complex they require design, and God is more complex that humans, who designed God?
Complexity is a subjective term and I don’t understand how it’s more scientifically applicable to intelligent design than evolution. As far as question of “Who designed God?”, Christian faith suggests faith in His eternal existence . True science requires us to say “I don’t know”. Atheism claims “Gotcha”.
I don't like absolutes, I prefer probabilities. I may not "know" something, but at the same time be certain to 5 or 6 sigma's, and that's how language of "real" science.
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
I can't believe that he is so dumb, that on another thread he admits he is not very smart. A real Forrest Gump!
To be fair, CCCC is actually a very smart guy. I believe he has at least a PHD in Music, and perhaps a second in something else. In certain music circles he's well known and respected. In this thread he got bested by his emotions and lost his composure, which for him is rare thing.
The sum of a man's character is not measured on single subject, nor on a particularly off day for him.
In music? LOL!!! He's spent many days being a troll, not just one "off-day". If he wants to be respected, perhaps he should behave on this thread like he does in real life.
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
I can't believe that he is so dumb, that on another thread he admits he is not very smart. A real Forrest Gump!
To be fair, CCCC is actually a very smart guy. I believe he has at least a PHD in Music, and perhaps a second in something else. In certain music circles he's well known and respected. In this thread he got bested by his emotions and lost his composure, which for him is rare thing.
The sum of a man's character is not measured on single subject, nor on a particularly off day for him.
In music? LOL!!! He's spent many days being a troll, not just one "off-day". If he wants to be respected, perhaps he should behave on this thread like he does in real life.
I got along well with him in the past, but I think everyone's a bit "off" since Covid.
I don't like absolutes, I prefer probabilities. I may not "know" something, but at the same time be certain to 5 or 6 sigma's, and that's how language of "real" science.
I guess not liking something can provoke an idea that leads to to a hypothesis, then to a theory and finally a law, so perhaps there’s some relevance at a reach. As far as the language of real science, I’m at a disadvantage and my ignorance leads me to believe it’s not essential to communicate the simplest of truths. In fact, it seems to be an effective way of avoiding the inconvenient ones (in some cases).
I don't like absolutes, I prefer probabilities. I may not "know" something, but at the same time be certain to 5 or 6 sigma's, and that's how language of "real" science.
I guess not liking something can provoke an idea that leads to to a hypothesis, then to a theory and finally a law, so perhaps there’s some relevance at a reach. As far as the language of real science, I’m at a disadvantage and my ignorance leads me to believe it’s not essential to communicate the simplest of truths. In fact, it seems to be an effective way of avoiding the inconvenient ones (in some cases).
Ray, is Science it's hypothesis, law, then Theory.
A hypothesis is and idea to be tested. Positive results can lead to laws, and Theory's are the over arching framework explaining a set of laws.
Finding are typically stated in terms of probabilities. Generally speaking, in order for a find to be published in a peer reviewed journal it must have a minimum certainty of 2 sigma, or fall outside of 2 standard deviations from the norm. Put another way, there's must at least a 95% chance the finding is not due to random chance. Standard from some experiments can be much higher. Before the results for finding the Higgs Bozon were accepted they had to reach 7 sigma, or 99.9999999997% chance the finding were not due to random chance.
Of course that's not how Fox or CNN published the results. They will announce "Scientist found the Higgs Bozon", not "Scientist are 99.9999999997 certain they found the Higgs Boson."
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
Not laughter material. If want the lesson on objectivity, see my response regarding Riflehunter's pleas for ignore. The essence of that post is based purely on things he has already posted - positions taken - actual evidence from his keyboard. Not wishes or guesses - not based on any personal animosity. If he or others find the post insulting, it is due to facts - not ad homs.
You really should learn the difference between the unlearned personal smears some post - seemingly due to frustrated ignorance - and the logical, objective content-based critiques of posts and the ostensible reasoning. You know - the objective evidence-based critiques that cause your ilk to itch and chafe, right after you dash at the flame. If you learn that, it may help you be a better person - or, at least, a better poster.
Now, once again, maybe post the real reason(s) that your type come to get stuck on the glue paper strip?
There is no 'atheist model.' There is politics and ideology, The far left, the far right and those who fall somewhere between.
Believing in God is no guarantee of good behaviour, far from it in fact.
You can substitute "model" with "outcome" if you would prefer.
Outcome being determined by intention and purpose.... if atheism plays little or no part in what are political and ideological decisions and actions, atheism cannot be blamed for the outcome of these actions.
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
Not laughter material. You really should learn the difference between the unlearned personal smears some post - seemingly due to frustrated ignorance - and the logical, objective content-based critiques of posts and the ostensible reasoning. You know - the objective evidence-based critiques that cause your ilk to itch and chafe, right after you dash at the flame. If you learn that, it may help you be a better person - or, at least, a better poster.
Now, once again, maybe post the real reason(s) that your type come to get stuck on the glue paper strip?
There you go again, desperatley trying to turn the tables, playing a rightous man, the tragic victim even while being the aggressor, hurling insults even while complaining about what you reap.
You do precisely what you accuse your opponents of.
There is no 'atheist model.' There is politics and ideology, The far left, the far right and those who fall somewhere between.
Believing in God is no guarantee of good behaviour, far from it in fact.
You can substitute "model" with "outcome" if you would prefer.
Outcome being determined by intention and purpose.... if atheism plays little or no part in what are political and ideological decisions and actions, atheism cannot be blamed for the outcome of these actions.
The political decisions come about by what politicians think will get them the most votes. If a large part of the population are atheists, then those decisions that favor atheists will be made by the politicians.
There is no 'atheist model.' There is politics and ideology, The far left, the far right and those who fall somewhere between.
Believing in God is no guarantee of good behaviour, far from it in fact.
You can substitute "model" with "outcome" if you would prefer.
Outcome being determined by intention and purpose.... if atheism plays little or no part in what are political and ideological decisions and actions, atheism cannot be blamed for the outcome of these actions.
The political decisions come about by what politicians think will get them the most votes. If a large part of the population are atheists, then those decisions that favor atheists will be made by the politicians.
Most people are concerned with their daily lives, cost of living, paying their bills, raising families, enjoying life, while business is concerned with turning a profit, shareholders, dividends, etc.
That applies to theists, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc....and atheists.
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
The probability of the universe existing is 100%.
If you buy a ticket in USA Power Lotto, the chance of winning is one in many million perhaps when you buy the ticket. The fact that you may win, doesn't mean there was a 100% chance of you winning before you have won. The fact that the universe does ultimately exist because of the hand of God or because of something else, doesn't mean that there was 100% probability that it would exist, unless you can find irrefutable evidence that it was always going to be created or always existed, with no possibility of an alternate outcome.
You’re changing what you said. Maybe you don’t realize because you don’t understand how to talk about probabilities. That’s okay, most people don’t.
If you see a coin on a table with the heads pointed up. That coin has a 100% chance of being heads. The universe already exists so it is the same, 100%. That is different than saying what the probability of that coin being heads is, if you didn’t know or the coin hasn’t landed on the table yet.
It may sound nit-picky, but sloppy thought processes are how people start thinking they have an invisible friend in the sky
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
Not laughter material. You really should learn the difference between the unlearned personal smears some post - seemingly due to frustrated ignorance - and the logical, objective content-based critiques of posts and the ostensible reasoning. You know - the objective evidence-based critiques that cause your ilk to itch and chafe, right after you dash at the flame. If you learn that, it may help you be a better person - or, at least, a better poster.
Now, once again, maybe post the real reason(s) that your type come to get stuck on the glue paper strip?
There you go again, desperatley trying to turn the tables, playing a rightous man, the tragic victim even while being the aggressor, hurling insults even while complaining about what you reap.
You do precisely what you accuse your opponents of.
Hey Mr. Frustration - I'm not righteous - in the least. I added some more factual info about Riflehunter's stuff to that post - maybe go read it again.
It may help you understand the key differences between what you read and what you imagine - the realty of objectivity versus the fantasy on which you base your attacks. You undermine yourself and then try to sling insults as you drop into the pit of self-delusion. Try to get a hold on something solid.
The political decisions come about by what politicians think will get them the most votes. If a large part of the population are atheists, then those decisions that favor atheists will be made by the politicians.
If this is true then the largest population we have must be LGBT+, and/or black.
There is no 'atheist model.' There is politics and ideology, The far left, the far right and those who fall somewhere between.
Believing in God is no guarantee of good behaviour, far from it in fact.
You can substitute "model" with "outcome" if you would prefer.
Outcome being determined by intention and purpose.... if atheism plays little or no part in what are political and ideological decisions and actions, atheism cannot be blamed for the outcome of these actions.
The political decisions come about by what politicians think will get them the most votes. If a large part of the population are atheists, then those decisions that favor atheists will be made by the politicians.
Do you really think you and I are all that different?
The probability of the universe existing, the probability of it existing and being so vast, whether by the hand of God or not by the hand of God, is so low that it is close to zero. It is just unbelievable that existence exists - no matter how it came about. Yet we know it does exist. The probability argument and the vastness argument therefore does not swing things in favor of "no god", in fact it swings things in favor of "god". If on the balance of probabilities that god exists, then which god? No one has come up with a better explanation of what constitutes god that what we have in the West.
You can't determine the probability. There may well be infinite universes (multiverses) if which case life is then inevitable.
God is just a pacifier placeholder for the superstitious and solves nothing - you can"t solve a mystery with another mystery.
The probability of the universe existing is 100%.
If you buy a ticket in USA Power Lotto, the chance of winning is one in many million perhaps when you buy the ticket. The fact that you may win, doesn't mean there was a 100% chance of you winning before you have won. The fact that the universe does ultimately exist because of the hand of God or because of something else, doesn't mean that there was 100% probability that it would exist, unless you can find irrefutable evidence that it was always going to be created or always existed, with no possibility of an alternate outcome.
You’re changing what you said. Maybe you don’t realize because you don’t understand how to talk about probabilities. That’s okay, most people don’t.
If you see a coin on a table with the heads pointed up. That coin has a 100% chance of being heads. The universe already exists so it is the same, 100%. That is different than saying what the probability of that coin being heads is, if you didn’t know or the coin hasn’t landed on the table yet.
It may sound nit-picky, but sloppy thought processes are how people start thinking they have an invisible friend in the sky
Yes, there's an important distinction between a "prior probability" and a "known outcome".
Sure, there's a stairway to heaven. It was first mentioned in Genesis 28:12 and definitively identified in John 1:51.
To clearly answer the question from the OP: Yes, I believe in the triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Throughout history there has only ever been one "stairway to heaven:" The Son of Man, Jesus Christ. This was true even before Christ's incarnation, birth, crucifixion, and resurrection and continues to be true today as well. [Job 19:25] Scripture records a "great cloud of witnesses" professing this same truth throughout history. [Heb 12:1]
Prior to Christ's incarnation, God acted to steward the nation of Israel so that it would bring forth Christ exactly as foretold "so that Scripture might be fulfilled." The Old Covenant, along with His rod, was largely established to keep the nation separate from the world and close to Himself. While God did not change, once Christ came into his glory, the Old Covenant was fulfilled and the New Covenant, which had always existed, became manifest. No one, before or after Christ, was saved by keeping the Law.
Since the fall, there has always been misery in the world, corruption in the church [Jer 23:1-2], and abuse of children [Ex 1:15ff]. There is nothing new under the sun. I believe there is also hope even among those killed by Herod/Pharaoh, those sacrificed to Molech, and those aborted in our day. This hope is centered on Christ and conveyed even to the unborn by the Holy Spirit. In this matter, I do not place limits on God.
In this thread, the faithful have made their confession (each in their own fallible way), are shaking the dust from their cloaks, and are departing the conversation. Be not concerned that what remains is dominated by mockery. [Acts 18:6; Ezk 33:1-6; 2 Kgs 19:14-16] Broad is the road... And yet, their end has not yet come. There is still time. Consider the conversion of St. Augustine.
The crux of the disagreement is clearly set forth in 1 Cor 15:14-19. Has Christ been raised from the dead? If not, we Christians are most to be pitied. It's no wonder that Easter, less than two weeks from now, is our highest festival.
This I believe, Lord help my unbelief. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to sound the trumpet.
Ray, is Science it's hypothesis, law, then Theory.
A hypothesis is and idea to be tested. Positive results can lead to laws, and Theory's are the over arching framework explaining a set of laws.
Finding are typically stated in terms of probabilities. Generally speaking, in order for a find to be published in a peer reviewed journal it must have a minimum certainty of 2 sigma, or fall outside of 2 standard deviations from the norm. Put another way, there's must at least a 95% chance the finding is not due to random chance. Standard from some experiments can be much higher. Before the results for finding the Higgs Bozon were accepted they had to reach 7 sigma, or 99.9999999997% chance the finding were not due to random chance.
Of course that's not how Fox or CNN published the results. They will announce "Scientist found the Higgs Bozon", not "Scientist are 99.9999999997 certain they found the Higgs Boson."
Isn’t it odd that they used to teach theory being explanations that could change and laws (like facts) were proven and couldn’t change? My son’s lesson identified that as a “Misconception”. LOL. Well, yeah…..they used to teach it. But we’ve digressed.
I do appreciate your reference to probabilities. Especially when it comes to the discussion about intelligent design. Its refreshing to hear someone that doesn’t believe in God take a more agnostic approach. Injecting belief as a science-based fact and gaslighting the act just discredits their argument, regardless of education.
Ray, is Science it's hypothesis, law, then Theory.
A hypothesis is and idea to be tested. Positive results can lead to laws, and Theory's are the over arching framework explaining a set of laws.
Finding are typically stated in terms of probabilities. Generally speaking, in order for a find to be published in a peer reviewed journal it must have a minimum certainty of 2 sigma, or fall outside of 2 standard deviations from the norm. Put another way, there's must at least a 95% chance the finding is not due to random chance. Standard from some experiments can be much higher. Before the results for finding the Higgs Bozon were accepted they had to reach 7 sigma, or 99.9999999997% chance the finding were not due to random chance.
Of course that's not how Fox or CNN published the results. They will announce "Scientist found the Higgs Bozon", not "Scientist are 99.9999999997 certain they found the Higgs Boson."
Isn’t it odd that they used to teach theory being explanations that could change and laws (like facts) were proven and couldn’t change? My son’s lesson identified that as a “Misconception”. LOL. Well, yeah…..they used to teach it. But we’ve digressed.
I do appreciate your reference to probabilities. Especially when it comes to the discussion about intelligent design. Its refreshing to hear someone that doesn’t believe in God take a more agnostic approach. Injecting belief as a science-based fact and gaslighting the act just discredits their argument, regardless of education.
Ray, everything in real, (non-political) Science is open to newer, better, more convincing evidence.
A great example of this is The Theory of Gravity as understood in the time of Newton. We thought we understood how gravity worked, but this guy named Einstein came along and turned all that on it's head. Despite Einstein proving gravity is not an attractive force, but a mass induced curvature of space/time the Newtonian Laws are still useful approximations for small scale gravitational problems, but for large scale problems they no longer work. So, Newton's Law's and The Theory of Gravity was overturned, and at the same time, not overturned, depending on the scale and application.
Einstein's paper on General Relativity was published in 1915 so the possibility of our understanding of the laws of physics changing is not new.
As for my position on the existence of a Universal or greater (Multiversal?) supernatural force, I'm technically agnostic. but my current level of certainty is sufficient that for practical purposes I'm am Atheist and more honest than representing myself as agnostic.
There is no 'atheist model.' There is politics and ideology, The far left, the far right and those who fall somewhere between.
Believing in God is no guarantee of good behaviour, far from it in fact.
You can substitute "model" with "outcome" if you would prefer.
Outcome being determined by intention and purpose.... if atheism plays little or no part in what are political and ideological decisions and actions, atheism cannot be blamed for the outcome of these actions.
The political decisions come about by what politicians think will get them the most votes. If a large part of the population are atheists, then those decisions that favor atheists will be made by the politicians.
Do you really think you and I are all that different?
The fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres.
Ray, is Science it's hypothesis, law, then Theory.
A hypothesis is and idea to be tested. Positive results can lead to laws, and Theory's are the over arching framework explaining a set of laws.
Finding are typically stated in terms of probabilities. Generally speaking, in order for a find to be published in a peer reviewed journal it must have a minimum certainty of 2 sigma, or fall outside of 2 standard deviations from the norm. Put another way, there's must at least a 95% chance the finding is not due to random chance. Standard from some experiments can be much higher. Before the results for finding the Higgs Bozon were accepted they had to reach 7 sigma, or 99.9999999997% chance the finding were not due to random chance.
Of course that's not how Fox or CNN published the results. They will announce "Scientist found the Higgs Bozon", not "Scientist are 99.9999999997 certain they found the Higgs Boson."
Isn’t it odd that they used to teach theory being explanations that could change and laws (like facts) were proven and couldn’t change? My son’s lesson identified that as a “Misconception”. LOL. Well, yeah…..they used to teach it. But we’ve digressed.
I do appreciate your reference to probabilities. Especially when it comes to the discussion about intelligent design. Its refreshing to hear someone that doesn’t believe in God take a more agnostic approach. Injecting belief as a science-based fact and gaslighting the act just discredits their argument, regardless of education.
Ray, everything in real, (non-political) Science is open to newer, better, more convincing evidence.
A great example of this is The Theory of Gravity as understood in the time of Newton. We thought we understood how gravity worked, but this guy named Einstein came along and turned all that on it's head. Despite Einstein proving gravity is not an attractive force, but a mass induced curvature of space/time the Newtonian Laws are still useful approximations for small scale gravitational problems, but for large scale problems they no longer work. So, Newton's Law's and The Theory of Gravity was overturned, and at the same time, not overturned, depending on the scale and application.
Einstein's paper on General Relativity was published in 1915 so the possibility of our understanding of the laws of physics changing is not new.
As for my position on the existence of a Universal or greater (Multiversal?) supernatural force, I'm technically agnostic. but my current level of certainty is sufficient that for practical purposes I'm am Atheist and more honest than representing myself as agnostic.
Humans can not understand the nature of God, it has to be simplified, like the Newtonian Theory of Gravity. There is absolutely no conflict between science and God.
I believe that God is the Creator of the universe, and that Jesus is the Son of God, and that the Holy Spirit lives in each of Jesus’ followers from the moment of their salvation. And I believe that people are the supreme object of God’s creation, and that people will exist eternally with or without God, and that salvation is God’s free gift to ALL of us, but we must accept it.
Could someone who does not believe in the existence of a God, kindly explain to me how the laws of physics came about? Let us assume that the universe either always existed in some form or came into existence without a God. Matter and energy in the universe follow laws. That is why we get planets revolving around the sun, black holes, light reaching us after a calculable time etc, etc. There isn't complete chaos (because of a lack of laws), but rather an orderly universe because of the existence of laws. How did those laws (not the matter or energy) come about if they do not represent either God itself or were created by God? If you say those laws always existed, why would they have always existed? If you say the laws "evolved" how did that happen?
Could someone who does not believe in the existence of a God, kindly explain to me how the laws of physics came about? Let us assume that the universe either always existed in some form or came into existence without a God. Matter and energy in the universe follow laws. That is why we get planets revolving around the sun, black holes, light reaching us after a calculable time etc, etc. There isn't complete chaos (because of a lack of laws), but rather an orderly universe because of the existence of laws. How did those laws (not the matter or energy) come about if they do not represent either God itself or were created by God? If you say those laws always existed, why would they have always existed? If you say the laws "evolved" how did that happen?
It i mind blowing, The vast and dangerous and beautiful world what we live in, That there's no effing way we can understand how amazing the universe and still people still believe there's now Creator. Just WOW@
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
Not laughter material. You really should learn the difference between the unlearned personal smears some post - seemingly due to frustrated ignorance - and the logical, objective content-based critiques of posts and the ostensible reasoning. You know - the objective evidence-based critiques that cause your ilk to itch and chafe, right after you dash at the flame. If you learn that, it may help you be a better person - or, at least, a better poster.
Now, once again, maybe post the real reason(s) that your type come to get stuck on the glue paper strip?
There you go again, desperatley trying to turn the tables, playing a rightous man, the tragic victim even while being the aggressor, hurling insults even while complaining about what you reap.
You do precisely what you accuse your opponents of.
Hey Mr. Frustration - I'm not righteous - in the least. I added some more factual info about Riflehunter's stuff to that post - maybe go read it again.
It may help you understand the key differences between what you read and what you imagine - the realty of objectivity versus the fantasy on which you base your attacks. You undermine yourself and then try to sling insults as you drop into the pit of self-delusion. Try to get a hold on something solid.
Just face the facts; nobody knows how or why the BB happened, whether there was a before (a beginning to time), what set it off, whether it is cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something yet unimagined.
The fact is we don't know.
We don't know therefore there must be a creator is neither a sound argument or a justified belief.
It is you and your crew who are claiming to know.
You claim to know because you have read it in the bible, a set of books written in ancient times when people had no idea of the scope and scale of the universe when compared to what current science has discovered, so had no real understanding of how vast the universe is.
You don't know, but pretend that you do.
You do that for a number of reasons: to provide comfort and meaning, the promise of eternal life, reunion with loved ones, etc, understandable but unsupported by evidence.....which is where faith comes into play.
Sure, there's a stairway to heaven. It was first mentioned in Genesis 28:12 and definitively identified in John 1:51.
To clearly answer the question from the OP: Yes, I believe in the triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Throughout history there has only ever been one "stairway to heaven:" The Son of Man, Jesus Christ. This was true even before Christ's incarnation, birth, crucifixion, and resurrection and continues to be true today as well. [Job 19:25] Scripture records a "great cloud of witnesses" professing this same truth throughout history. [Heb 12:1]
Prior to Christ's incarnation, God acted to steward the nation of Israel so that it would bring forth Christ exactly as foretold "so that Scripture might be fulfilled." The Old Covenant, along with His rod, was largely established to keep the nation separate from the world and close to Himself. While God did not change, once Christ came into his glory, the Old Covenant was fulfilled and the New Covenant, which had always existed, became manifest. No one, before or after Christ, was saved by keeping the Law.
Since the fall, there has always been misery in the world, corruption in the church [Jer 23:1-2], and abuse of children [Ex 1:15ff]. There is nothing new under the sun. I believe there is also hope even among those killed by Herod/Pharaoh, those sacrificed to Molech, and those aborted in our day. This hope is centered on Christ and conveyed even to the unborn by the Holy Spirit. In this matter, I do not place limits on God.
In this thread, the faithful have made their confession (each in their own fallible way), are shaking the dust from their cloaks, and are departing the conversation. Be not concerned that what remains is dominated by mockery. [Acts 18:6; Ezk 33:1-6; 2 Kgs 19:14-16] Broad is the road... And yet, their end has not yet come. There is still time. Consider the conversion of St. Augustine.
The crux of the disagreement is clearly set forth in 1 Cor 15:14-19. Has Christ been raised from the dead? If not, we Christians are most to be pitied. It's no wonder that Easter, less than two weeks from now, is our highest festival.
This I believe, Lord help my unbelief. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to sound the trumpet.
Could someone who does not believe in the existence of a God, kindly explain to me how the laws of physics came about? Let us assume that the universe either always existed in some form or came into existence without a God. Matter and energy in the universe follow laws. That is why we get planets revolving around the sun, black holes, light reaching us after a calculable time etc, etc. There isn't complete chaos (because of a lack of laws), but rather an orderly universe because of the existence of laws. How did those laws (not the matter or energy) come about if they do not represent either God itself or were created by God? If you say those laws always existed, why would they have always existed? If you say the laws "evolved" how did that happen?
Goes with this:
Originally Posted by DBT
Just face the facts; nobody knows how or why the BB happened, whether there was a before (a beginning to time), what set it off, whether it is cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something yet unimagined.
The fact is we don't know.
We don't know therefore there must be a creator is neither a sound argument or a justified belief.
It is you and your crew who are claiming to know.
You claim to know because you have read it in the bible, a set of books written in ancient times when people had no idea of the scope and scale of the universe when compared to what current science has discovered, so had no real understanding of how vast the universe is.
You don't know, but pretend that you do.
You do that for a number of reasons: to provide comfort and meaning, the promise of eternal life, reunion with loved ones, etc, understandable but unsupported by evidence.....which is where faith comes into play.
I believe that God is the Creator of the universe, and that Jesus is the Son of God, and that the Holy Spirit lives in each of Jesus’ followers from the moment of their salvation. And I believe that people are the supreme object of God’s creation, and that people will exist eternally with or without God, and that salvation is God’s free gift to ALL of us, but we must accept it.
With this:
Quote
The fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres.
We are expecting a record turnout of kids at our annual Easter celebration. Our Worship Committee has been working on it for the past month. It will be a great event.
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
Not laughter material. You really should learn the difference between the unlearned personal smears some post - seemingly due to frustrated ignorance - and the logical, objective content-based critiques of posts and the ostensible reasoning. You know - the objective evidence-based critiques that cause your ilk to itch and chafe, right after you dash at the flame. If you learn that, it may help you be a better person - or, at least, a better poster.
Now, once again, maybe post the real reason(s) that your type come to get stuck on the glue paper strip?
There you go again, desperatley trying to turn the tables, playing a rightous man, the tragic victim even while being the aggressor, hurling insults even while complaining about what you reap.
You do precisely what you accuse your opponents of.
Hey Mr. Frustration - I'm not righteous - in the least. I added some more factual info about Riflehunter's stuff to that post - maybe go read it again.
It may help you understand the key differences between what you read and what you imagine - the realty of objectivity versus the fantasy on which you base your attacks. You undermine yourself and then try to sling insults as you drop into the pit of self-delusion. Try to get a hold on something solid.
Just face the facts; nobody knows how or why the BB happened, whether there was a before (a beginning to time), what set it off, whether it is cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something yet unimagined.
The fact is we don't know.
We don't know therefore there must be a creator is neither a sound argument or a justified belief.
It is you and your crew who are claiming to know.
You claim to know because you have read it in the bible, a set of books written in ancient times when people had no idea of the scope and scale of the universe when compared to what current science has discovered, so had no real understanding of how vast the universe is.
You don't know, but pretend that you do.
You do that for a number of reasons: to provide comfort and meaning, the promise of eternal life, reunion with loved ones, etc, understandable but unsupported by evidence.....which is where faith comes into play.
Nope..... If I am presented with something that is clearly artfully and skillfully crafted, I may not HOW it was crafted, but I will know THAT it was crafted.
You are just trying to re-package the "something from nothing" baloney.
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
Not laughter material. You really should learn the difference between the unlearned personal smears some post - seemingly due to frustrated ignorance - and the logical, objective content-based critiques of posts and the ostensible reasoning. You know - the objective evidence-based critiques that cause your ilk to itch and chafe, right after you dash at the flame. If you learn that, it may help you be a better person - or, at least, a better poster.
Now, once again, maybe post the real reason(s) that your type come to get stuck on the glue paper strip?
There you go again, desperatley trying to turn the tables, playing a rightous man, the tragic victim even while being the aggressor, hurling insults even while complaining about what you reap.
You do precisely what you accuse your opponents of.
Hey Mr. Frustration - I'm not righteous - in the least. I added some more factual info about Riflehunter's stuff to that post - maybe go read it again.
It may help you understand the key differences between what you read and what you imagine - the realty of objectivity versus the fantasy on which you base your attacks. You undermine yourself and then try to sling insults as you drop into the pit of self-delusion. Try to get a hold on something solid.
Just face the facts; nobody knows how or why the BB happened, whether there was a before (a beginning to time), what set it off, whether it is cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something yet unimagined.
The fact is we don't know.
We don't know therefore there must be a creator is neither a sound argument or a justified belief.
It is you and your crew who are claiming to know.
You claim to know because you have read it in the bible, a set of books written in ancient times when people had no idea of the scope and scale of the universe when compared to what current science has discovered, so had no real understanding of how vast the universe is.
You don't know, but pretend that you do.
You do that for a number of reasons: to provide comfort and meaning, the promise of eternal life, reunion with loved ones, etc, understandable but unsupported by evidence.....which is where faith comes into play.
Nope..... If I am presented with something that is clearly artfully and skillfully crafted, I may not HOW it was crafted, but I will know THAT it was crafted.
You are just trying to re-package the "something from nothing" baloney.
The universe can't come from "nothing", but God can?
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
Not laughter material. You really should learn the difference between the unlearned personal smears some post - seemingly due to frustrated ignorance - and the logical, objective content-based critiques of posts and the ostensible reasoning. You know - the objective evidence-based critiques that cause your ilk to itch and chafe, right after you dash at the flame. If you learn that, it may help you be a better person - or, at least, a better poster.
Now, once again, maybe post the real reason(s) that your type come to get stuck on the glue paper strip?
There you go again, desperatley trying to turn the tables, playing a rightous man, the tragic victim even while being the aggressor, hurling insults even while complaining about what you reap.
You do precisely what you accuse your opponents of.
Hey Mr. Frustration - I'm not righteous - in the least. I added some more factual info about Riflehunter's stuff to that post - maybe go read it again.
It may help you understand the key differences between what you read and what you imagine - the realty of objectivity versus the fantasy on which you base your attacks. You undermine yourself and then try to sling insults as you drop into the pit of self-delusion. Try to get a hold on something solid.
Just face the facts; nobody knows how or why the BB happened, whether there was a before (a beginning to time), what set it off, whether it is cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something yet unimagined.
The fact is we don't know.
We don't know therefore there must be a creator is neither a sound argument or a justified belief.
It is you and your crew who are claiming to know.
You claim to know because you have read it in the bible, a set of books written in ancient times when people had no idea of the scope and scale of the universe when compared to what current science has discovered, so had no real understanding of how vast the universe is.
You don't know, but pretend that you do.
You do that for a number of reasons: to provide comfort and meaning, the promise of eternal life, reunion with loved ones, etc, understandable but unsupported by evidence.....which is where faith comes into play.
Nope..... If I am presented with something that is clearly artfully and skillfully crafted, I may not HOW it was crafted, but I will know THAT it was crafted.
You are just trying to re-package the "something from nothing" baloney.
The universe can't come from "nothing", but God can?
There is no 'atheist model.' There is politics and ideology, The far left, the far right and those who fall somewhere between.
Believing in God is no guarantee of good behaviour, far from it in fact.
You can substitute "model" with "outcome" if you would prefer.
Outcome being determined by intention and purpose.... if atheism plays little or no part in what are political and ideological decisions and actions, atheism cannot be blamed for the outcome of these actions.
This strikes me as an odd comment. While it is correct that "believing in God" is no assurance of good behavior.......(See the destruction and behavior of Muslims around the world.... they would all claim to be "believers in God").........
Atheism provides no moral absolutes and therefore human behavior and "outcomes" can indeed be influenced those in society that can behave without moral or even cultural restraints.
There is no 'atheist model.' There is politics and ideology, The far left, the far right and those who fall somewhere between.
Believing in God is no guarantee of good behaviour, far from it in fact.
You can substitute "model" with "outcome" if you would prefer.
Outcome being determined by intention and purpose.... if atheism plays little or no part in what are political and ideological decisions and actions, atheism cannot be blamed for the outcome of these actions.
This strikes me as an odd comment. While it is correct that "believing in God" is no assurance of good behavior.......(See the destruction and behavior of Muslims around the world.... they would all claim to be "believers in God").........
Atheism provides no moral absolutes and therefore human behavior and "outcomes" can indeed be influenced those in society that can behave without moral or even cultural restraints.
It seem as though atheism needs the law to divide right from wrong where as faith in God seems to separate good from evil. Notwithstanding the solid fact that some people will exploit either for their OWN benefit.
I believe that God is the Creator of the universe, and that Jesus is the Son of God, and that the Holy Spirit lives in each of Jesus’ followers from the moment of their salvation. And I believe that people are the supreme object of God’s creation, and that people will exist eternally with or without God, and that salvation is God’s free gift to ALL of us, but we must accept it.
With this:
Quote
The fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres.
Which one seems more "Christian".
Who would you rather have a beer with?
Obviously they are both believers, but the second one is far more intelligent and interesting and knowledgeable.
There is no 'atheist model.' There is politics and ideology, The far left, the far right and those who fall somewhere between.
Believing in God is no guarantee of good behaviour, far from it in fact.
You can substitute "model" with "outcome" if you would prefer.
Outcome being determined by intention and purpose.... if atheism plays little or no part in what are political and ideological decisions and actions, atheism cannot be blamed for the outcome of these actions.
This strikes me as an odd comment. While it is correct that "believing in God" is no assurance of good behavior.......(See the destruction and behavior of Muslims around the world.... they would all claim to be "believers in God").........
Atheism provides no moral absolutes and therefore human behavior and "outcomes" can indeed be influenced those in society that can behave without moral or even cultural restraints.
It seem as though atheism needs the law to divide right from wrong where as faith in God seems to separate good from evil. Notwithstanding the solid fact that some people will exploit either for their OWN benefit.
Interesting comment..... Yes.... Once I was talking with a then 14 year old girl about what is right and wrong... morality and behavior..... etc....She disagreed with me and did exactly what you refer to... she something like "Well, it's legal so it must be ok."
I explained to her that "That's the government talking, not God."
Her mother asked to give her some "best advice" and although I had spent some time with them, I was soon departing.... I told the young lady that "They are lying to you." She asked who might be lying to her and I told her ....."For example, your schoolteachers." She was incredulous and told me that her teachers would never lie to her.
She was completely bought in to the "woke culture" propaganda..... hook, line and sinker.
We are expecting a record turnout of kids at our annual Easter celebration. Our Worship Committee has been working on it for the past month. It will be a great event.
Just don't let any of the kids be alone with any of the adults.
I believe that God is the Creator of the universe, and that Jesus is the Son of God, and that the Holy Spirit lives in each of Jesus’ followers from the moment of their salvation. And I believe that people are the supreme object of God’s creation, and that people will exist eternally with or without God, and that salvation is God’s free gift to ALL of us, but we must accept it.
With this:
Quote
The fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres.
Which one seems more "Christian".
Who would you rather have a beer with?
Obviously they are both believers, but the second one is far more intelligent and interesting and knowledgeable.
I believe that God is the Creator of the universe, and that Jesus is the Son of God, and that the Holy Spirit lives in each of Jesus’ followers from the moment of their salvation. And I believe that people are the supreme object of God’s creation, and that people will exist eternally with or without God, and that salvation is God’s free gift to ALL of us, but we must accept it.
With this:
Quote
The fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres.
Which one seems more "Christian".
Who would you rather have a beer with?
Obviously they are both believers, but the second one is far more intelligent and interesting and knowledgeable.
These comments tell a lot about you.
Antelope_Wounder, what can you tell? Did I say something untrue? I would rather have a Jack Daniels (not a beer) with the second person. Obviously he is more knowledgeable, interesting and intelligent than the first. That doesn't mean that I don't think Antlers is a fine, good person. It's just of the two, I would prefer the second. You asked a question and were given an honest answer. Actually, come to think about it, you've been a bit horrible with your posts involving me lately. I think you should retract some of the comments you've made and apologize.
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
Not laughter material. You really should learn the difference between the unlearned personal smears some post - seemingly due to frustrated ignorance - and the logical, objective content-based critiques of posts and the ostensible reasoning. You know - the objective evidence-based critiques that cause your ilk to itch and chafe, right after you dash at the flame. If you learn that, it may help you be a better person - or, at least, a better poster.
Now, once again, maybe post the real reason(s) that your type come to get stuck on the glue paper strip?
There you go again, desperatley trying to turn the tables, playing a rightous man, the tragic victim even while being the aggressor, hurling insults even while complaining about what you reap.
You do precisely what you accuse your opponents of.
Hey Mr. Frustration - I'm not righteous - in the least. I added some more factual info about Riflehunter's stuff to that post - maybe go read it again.
It may help you understand the key differences between what you read and what you imagine - the realty of objectivity versus the fantasy on which you base your attacks. You undermine yourself and then try to sling insults as you drop into the pit of self-delusion. Try to get a hold on something solid.
- - - - - "You don't know, but pretend that you do." - - - - -
Is that contention not incredibly arrogant? Exactly how does a person like you know what someone else does or does not know - or if the person is pretending? May we assume that you will support that with facts?
There is no 'atheist model.' There is politics and ideology, The far left, the far right and those who fall somewhere between.
Believing in God is no guarantee of good behaviour, far from it in fact.
You can substitute "model" with "outcome" if you would prefer.
Outcome being determined by intention and purpose.... if atheism plays little or no part in what are political and ideological decisions and actions, atheism cannot be blamed for the outcome of these actions.
The political decisions come about by what politicians think will get them the most votes. If a large part of the population are atheists, then those decisions that favor atheists will be made by the politicians.
Do you really think you and I are all that different?
Could someone who does not believe in the existence of a God, kindly explain to me how the laws of physics came about? Let us assume that the universe either always existed in some form or came into existence without a God. Matter and energy in the universe follow laws. That is why we get planets revolving around the sun, black holes, light reaching us after a calculable time etc, etc. There isn't complete chaos (because of a lack of laws), but rather an orderly universe because of the existence of laws. How did those laws (not the matter or energy) come about if they do not represent either God itself or were created by God? If you say those laws always existed, why would they have always existed? If you say the laws "evolved" how did that happen?
The laws and theories are our explanations for what happens in reality, and demonstrable to be true with reality (and tested for falsifiability). Laws and theories are not objective.
God belief is a mental band-aid to cover up any attempt to try and properly understand reality, and is typically divorced from it, and against reality. Religions don't permit exploration of the truth.
Atheists are unconvinced that there is a god/s, and generally are skeptical and critical thinkers, and open minded.
Originally Posted by antlers
If you knew that Christianity was true, would you become a follower of Jesus…?
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
No I wouldn't. The god described in the bible is a total cunt.
Originally Posted by antlers
You’ve now clearly pointed out what has been known by many here all along. Your position has zero to do with truth and logic and reason, or science ~ despite your many assertions (recent and past) to the contrary. Your position is clearly a matter of the heart.
Originally Posted by antlers
Your position also clearly has zero to do with critical thinking and/or being open-minded.
Someone who would admittedly flat-out deny something that they know to be true is hardly a beacon of rational thought or logical reasoning.
Someone who would admittedly flat-out deny something to be true that they know to be true is hardly a beacon of rational thought or logical reasoning.
Too right!!! I agree.
Also, someone who asserts something to be true not knowing it to be true is hardly a beacon of rational thought or logical reasoning. Your faith in your god is not rational or logical.
If you choose to participate in the New Covenant that Jesus established (and He’s invited you to do so), and if you choose to have a personal relationship with your Creator (and He’s invited you to do so), and if you choose to follow Jesus’ teachings (and He’s invited you to do so), then your life will be better, and you will be better at life.
Originally Posted by Snowwolfe
Tell that to the parents who just lost a child to cancer or an accident and you are liable to get your azz beat.
Originally Posted by RHClark
Not unless those parents have been taught by idiots to believe that God is responsible for every good or bad thing that happens.
It’s understandable that someone’s faith can take a hit because of random, unnecessary, unexplainable pain and suffering. But why are people so prone to tether their trust or confidence in God to how well things are going…? The author of Hebrews 4:14-16 encourages people to tether their faith to…
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are ~ yet he did not sin. Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find graceto help us in our time of need.
Sure, there's a stairway to heaven. It was first mentioned in Genesis 28:12 and definitively identified in John 1:51.
To clearly answer the question from the OP: Yes, I believe in the triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Throughout history there has only ever been one "stairway to heaven:" The Son of Man, Jesus Christ. This was true even before Christ's incarnation, birth, crucifixion, and resurrection and continues to be true today as well. [Job 19:25] Scripture records a "great cloud of witnesses" professing this same truth throughout history. [Heb 12:1]
Prior to Christ's incarnation, God acted to steward the nation of Israel so that it would bring forth Christ exactly as foretold "so that Scripture might be fulfilled." The Old Covenant, along with His rod, was largely established to keep the nation separate from the world and close to Himself. While God did not change, once Christ came into his glory, the Old Covenant was fulfilled and the New Covenant, which had always existed, became manifest. No one, before or after Christ, was saved by keeping the Law.
Since the fall, there has always been misery in the world, corruption in the church [Jer 23:1-2], and abuse of children [Ex 1:15ff]. There is nothing new under the sun. I believe there is also hope even among those killed by Herod/Pharaoh, those sacrificed to Molech, and those aborted in our day. This hope is centered on Christ and conveyed even to the unborn by the Holy Spirit. In this matter, I do not place limits on God.
In this thread, the faithful have made their confession (each in their own fallible way), are shaking the dust from their cloaks, and are departing the conversation. Be not concerned that what remains is dominated by mockery. [Acts 18:6; Ezk 33:1-6; 2 Kgs 19:14-16] Broad is the road... And yet, their end has not yet come. There is still time. Consider the conversion of St. Augustine.
The crux of the disagreement is clearly set forth in 1 Cor 15:14-19. Has Christ been raised from the dead? If not, we Christians are most to be pitied. It's no wonder that Easter, less than two weeks from now, is our highest festival.
This I believe, Lord help my unbelief. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to sound the trumpet.
There is a bit of a problem here. There are untold billions and billions of humans that were born and died on this earth that had absolutely no way of knowing about Jesus or the nation of Israel. Are they condemned to death or hell whichever it may be?
It makes me wonder if there might be such a thing as reincarnation. A just God would not condemn his child for ignorance over which the child had no control. Would he?
Otherwise there are those billions of souls that are condemned without ever having a chance. It's a problem.
We are expecting a record turnout of kids at our annual Easter celebration. Our Worship Committee has been working on it for the past month. It will be a great event.
Just don't let any of the kids be alone with any of the adults.
We don’t need your advice on how to run our Easter celebration. It is a long running and successful tradition. Oh yeah, our bible study class was pretty crowded tonight. Now go run to your safe space.
We are expecting a record turnout of kids at our annual Easter celebration. Our Worship Committee has been working on it for the past month. It will be a great event.
Just don't let any of the kids be alone with any of the adults.
We don’t need your advice on how to run our Easter celebration. It is a long running and successful tradition. Oh yeah, our bible study class was pretty crowded tonight. Now go run to your safe space.
Willihunter, just giving you some good advice. Pedophiles infiltrate all of the organized activities that people take their children to, including church activities. You run your Easter celebration the way you think fit, but always beware of pedophiles. Glad that your Bible study classes are a success.
Sure, there's a stairway to heaven. It was first mentioned in Genesis 28:12 and definitively identified in John 1:51.
To clearly answer the question from the OP: Yes, I believe in the triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Throughout history there has only ever been one "stairway to heaven:" The Son of Man, Jesus Christ. This was true even before Christ's incarnation, birth, crucifixion, and resurrection and continues to be true today as well. [Job 19:25] Scripture records a "great cloud of witnesses" professing this same truth throughout history. [Heb 12:1]
Prior to Christ's incarnation, God acted to steward the nation of Israel so that it would bring forth Christ exactly as foretold "so that Scripture might be fulfilled." The Old Covenant, along with His rod, was largely established to keep the nation separate from the world and close to Himself. While God did not change, once Christ came into his glory, the Old Covenant was fulfilled and the New Covenant, which had always existed, became manifest. No one, before or after Christ, was saved by keeping the Law.
Since the fall, there has always been misery in the world, corruption in the church [Jer 23:1-2], and abuse of children [Ex 1:15ff]. There is nothing new under the sun. I believe there is also hope even among those killed by Herod/Pharaoh, those sacrificed to Molech, and those aborted in our day. This hope is centered on Christ and conveyed even to the unborn by the Holy Spirit. In this matter, I do not place limits on God.
In this thread, the faithful have made their confession (each in their own fallible way), are shaking the dust from their cloaks, and are departing the conversation. Be not concerned that what remains is dominated by mockery. [Acts 18:6; Ezk 33:1-6; 2 Kgs 19:14-16] Broad is the road... And yet, their end has not yet come. There is still time. Consider the conversion of St. Augustine.
The crux of the disagreement is clearly set forth in 1 Cor 15:14-19. Has Christ been raised from the dead? If not, we Christians are most to be pitied. It's no wonder that Easter, less than two weeks from now, is our highest festival.
This I believe, Lord help my unbelief. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to sound the trumpet.
There is a bit of a problem here. There are untold billions and billions of humans that were born and died on this earth that had absolutely no way of knowing about Jesus or the nation of Israel. Are they condemned to death or hell whichever it may be?
It makes me wonder if there might be such a thing as reincarnation. A just God would not condemn his child for ignorance over which the child had no control. Would he?
Otherwise there are those billions of souls that are condemned without ever having a chance. It's a problem.
Hastings, I dealt with this issue early on in this thread. I explained that it should be suggested to God that this point be addressed as it is unreasonable that good people don't go to heaven/or get a chance to go to heaven in the situations you described.
We are expecting a record turnout of kids at our annual Easter celebration. Our Worship Committee has been working on it for the past month. It will be a great event.
Just don't let any of the kids be alone with any of the adults.
We don’t need your advice on how to run our Easter celebration. It is a long running and successful tradition. Oh yeah, our bible study class was pretty crowded tonight. Now go run to your safe space.
Willihunter, just giving you some good advice. Pedophiles infiltrate all of the organized activities that people take their children to, including church activities. You run your Easter celebration the way you think fit, but always beware of pedophiles. Glad that your Bible study classes are a success.
I get what you’re saying, for sure. All activities are done in a group setting. Anyone working directly with youth go through a background check. We do take this very seriously, as we should. Thank you for the well wishes on our Bible study. We are all benefiting from it. I avoided it for years, and now I regret that I did. It is a tremendous class.
Sure, there's a stairway to heaven. It was first mentioned in Genesis 28:12 and definitively identified in John 1:51.
To clearly answer the question from the OP: Yes, I believe in the triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Throughout history there has only ever been one "stairway to heaven:" The Son of Man, Jesus Christ. This was true even before Christ's incarnation, birth, crucifixion, and resurrection and continues to be true today as well. [Job 19:25] Scripture records a "great cloud of witnesses" professing this same truth throughout history. [Heb 12:1]
Prior to Christ's incarnation, God acted to steward the nation of Israel so that it would bring forth Christ exactly as foretold "so that Scripture might be fulfilled." The Old Covenant, along with His rod, was largely established to keep the nation separate from the world and close to Himself. While God did not change, once Christ came into his glory, the Old Covenant was fulfilled and the New Covenant, which had always existed, became manifest. No one, before or after Christ, was saved by keeping the Law.
Since the fall, there has always been misery in the world, corruption in the church [Jer 23:1-2], and abuse of children [Ex 1:15ff]. There is nothing new under the sun. I believe there is also hope even among those killed by Herod/Pharaoh, those sacrificed to Molech, and those aborted in our day. This hope is centered on Christ and conveyed even to the unborn by the Holy Spirit. In this matter, I do not place limits on God.
In this thread, the faithful have made their confession (each in their own fallible way), are shaking the dust from their cloaks, and are departing the conversation. Be not concerned that what remains is dominated by mockery. [Acts 18:6; Ezk 33:1-6; 2 Kgs 19:14-16] Broad is the road... And yet, their end has not yet come. There is still time. Consider the conversion of St. Augustine.
The crux of the disagreement is clearly set forth in 1 Cor 15:14-19. Has Christ been raised from the dead? If not, we Christians are most to be pitied. It's no wonder that Easter, less than two weeks from now, is our highest festival.
This I believe, Lord help my unbelief. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to sound the trumpet.
There is a bit of a problem here. There are untold billions and billions of humans that were born and died on this earth that had absolutely no way of knowing about Jesus or the nation of Israel. Are they condemned to death or hell whichever it may be?
It makes me wonder if there might be such a thing as reincarnation. A just God would not condemn his child for ignorance over which the child had no control. Would he?
Otherwise there are those billions of souls that are condemned without ever having a chance. It's a problem.
Hastings, I dealt with this issue early on in this thread. I explained that it should be suggested to God that this point be addressed as it is unreasonable that good people don't go to heaven/or get a chance to go to heaven in the situations you described.
I am not going to put myself in the position of telling our supernatural creator how to handle his business but I think there is way more to getting right with God than some scholars of the by grace system would have us believe.
There are too many unanswered questions in that system. For instance the babies and toddlers that were destroyed at Sodom, at Jericho, at Ai, and during the purge of the tribe of Dan, did they receive eternal death or damnation or do they get another bite at the apple.
Jesus inferred that there was such a thing as reincarnation and from the sources I read belief in reincarnation was very much a thing in the early Christian church.
Sure, there's a stairway to heaven. It was first mentioned in Genesis 28:12 and definitively identified in John 1:51.
To clearly answer the question from the OP: Yes, I believe in the triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Throughout history there has only ever been one "stairway to heaven:" The Son of Man, Jesus Christ. This was true even before Christ's incarnation, birth, crucifixion, and resurrection and continues to be true today as well. [Job 19:25] Scripture records a "great cloud of witnesses" professing this same truth throughout history. [Heb 12:1]
Prior to Christ's incarnation, God acted to steward the nation of Israel so that it would bring forth Christ exactly as foretold "so that Scripture might be fulfilled." The Old Covenant, along with His rod, was largely established to keep the nation separate from the world and close to Himself. While God did not change, once Christ came into his glory, the Old Covenant was fulfilled and the New Covenant, which had always existed, became manifest. No one, before or after Christ, was saved by keeping the Law.
Since the fall, there has always been misery in the world, corruption in the church [Jer 23:1-2], and abuse of children [Ex 1:15ff]. There is nothing new under the sun. I believe there is also hope even among those killed by Herod/Pharaoh, those sacrificed to Molech, and those aborted in our day. This hope is centered on Christ and conveyed even to the unborn by the Holy Spirit. In this matter, I do not place limits on God.
In this thread, the faithful have made their confession (each in their own fallible way), are shaking the dust from their cloaks, and are departing the conversation. Be not concerned that what remains is dominated by mockery. [Acts 18:6; Ezk 33:1-6; 2 Kgs 19:14-16] Broad is the road... And yet, their end has not yet come. There is still time. Consider the conversion of St. Augustine.
The crux of the disagreement is clearly set forth in 1 Cor 15:14-19. Has Christ been raised from the dead? If not, we Christians are most to be pitied. It's no wonder that Easter, less than two weeks from now, is our highest festival.
This I believe, Lord help my unbelief. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to sound the trumpet.
There is a bit of a problem here. There are untold billions and billions of humans that were born and died on this earth that had absolutely no way of knowing about Jesus or the nation of Israel. Are they condemned to death or hell whichever it may be?
It makes me wonder if there might be such a thing as reincarnation. A just God would not condemn his child for ignorance over which the child had no control. Would he?
Otherwise there are those billions of souls that are condemned without ever having a chance. It's a problem.
Hastings, I dealt with this issue early on in this thread. I explained that it should be suggested to God that this point be addressed as it is unreasonable that good people don't go to heaven/or get a chance to go to heaven in the situations you described.
I am not going to put myself in the position of telling our supernatural creator how to handle his business but I think there is way more to getting right with God than some scholars of the by grace system would have us believe.
There are too many unanswered questions in that system. For instance the babies and toddlers that were destroyed at Sodom, at Jericho, at Ai, and during the purge of the tribe of Dan, did they receive eternal death or damnation or do they get another bite at the apple.
Jesus inferred that there was such a thing as reincarnation and from the sources I read belief in reincarnation was very much a thing in the early Christian church.
There's a difference between "telling" and "offering good suggestions".
I believe that God is the Creator of the universe, and that Jesus is the Son of God, and that the Holy Spirit lives in each of Jesus’ followers from the moment of their salvation. And I believe that people are the supreme object of God’s creation, and that people will exist eternally with or without God, and that salvation is God’s free gift to ALL of us, but we must accept it.
With this:
Quote
The fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres.
Which one seems more "Christian".
Who would you rather have a beer with?
Antelope_Wounder, you've really made a fool of yourself with this post. Unbeknown to you, the person who made the second quote was not Riflehunter, but none other than Albert Einstein (the person that you wouldn't want to have a beer with!!).
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
Not laughter material. You really should learn the difference between the unlearned personal smears some post - seemingly due to frustrated ignorance - and the logical, objective content-based critiques of posts and the ostensible reasoning. You know - the objective evidence-based critiques that cause your ilk to itch and chafe, right after you dash at the flame. If you learn that, it may help you be a better person - or, at least, a better poster.
Now, once again, maybe post the real reason(s) that your type come to get stuck on the glue paper strip?
There you go again, desperatley trying to turn the tables, playing a rightous man, the tragic victim even while being the aggressor, hurling insults even while complaining about what you reap.
You do precisely what you accuse your opponents of.
Hey Mr. Frustration - I'm not righteous - in the least. I added some more factual info about Riflehunter's stuff to that post - maybe go read it again.
It may help you understand the key differences between what you read and what you imagine - the realty of objectivity versus the fantasy on which you base your attacks. You undermine yourself and then try to sling insults as you drop into the pit of self-delusion. Try to get a hold on something solid.
Just face the facts; nobody knows how or why the BB happened, whether there was a before (a beginning to time), what set it off, whether it is cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something yet unimagined.
The fact is we don't know.
We don't know therefore there must be a creator is neither a sound argument or a justified belief.
It is you and your crew who are claiming to know.
You claim to know because you have read it in the bible, a set of books written in ancient times when people had no idea of the scope and scale of the universe when compared to what current science has discovered, so had no real understanding of how vast the universe is.
You don't know, but pretend that you do.
You do that for a number of reasons: to provide comfort and meaning, the promise of eternal life, reunion with loved ones, etc, understandable but unsupported by evidence.....which is where faith comes into play.
Nope..... If I am presented with something that is clearly artfully and skillfully crafted, I may not HOW it was crafted, but I will know THAT it was crafted.
You are just trying to re-package the "something from nothing" baloney.
You know no such thing.
You can't seem to able to tell the difference between faith and its assumption of truth and actual knowledge.
Plus you keep invoking the strawman 'something from nothing' no matter how many time it's pointed out that I made no such claim.
Instead of making your own special rules, read what is said before responding emotionally.
I believe that God is the Creator of the universe, and that Jesus is the Son of God, and that the Holy Spirit lives in each of Jesus’ followers from the moment of their salvation. And I believe that people are the supreme object of God’s creation, and that people will exist eternally with or without God, and that salvation is God’s free gift to ALL of us, but we must accept it.
With this:
Quote
The fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres.
Which one seems more "Christian".
Who would you rather have a beer with?
Obviously they are both believers, but the second one is far more intelligent and interesting and knowledgeable.
These comments tell a lot about you.
Antelope_Wounder, what can you tell? Did I say something untrue? I would rather have a Jack Daniels (not a beer) with the second person. Obviously he is more knowledgeable, interesting and intelligent than the first. That doesn't mean that I don't think Antlers is a fine, good person. It's just of the two, I would prefer the second. You asked a question and were given an honest answer. Actually, come to think about it, you've been a bit horrible with your posts involving me lately. I think you should retract some of the comments you've made and apologize.
I believe that God is the Creator of the universe, and that Jesus is the Son of God, and that the Holy Spirit lives in each of Jesus’ followers from the moment of their salvation. And I believe that people are the supreme object of God’s creation, and that people will exist eternally with or without God, and that salvation is God’s free gift to ALL of us, but we must accept it.
With this:
Quote
The fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres.
Which one seems more "Christian".
Who would you rather have a beer with?
Antelope_Wounder, you've really made a fool of yourself with this post. Unbeknown to you, the person who made the second quote was not Riflehunter, but none other than Albert Einstein (the person that you wouldn't want to have a beer with!!).
If Einstein said it or not is irrelevant.
It's the response you chose in this context, which speaks of you, and the choices you make.
I believe that God is the Creator of the universe, and that Jesus is the Son of God, and that the Holy Spirit lives in each of Jesus’ followers from the moment of their salvation. And I believe that people are the supreme object of God’s creation, and that people will exist eternally with or without God, and that salvation is God’s free gift to ALL of us, but we must accept it.
With this:
Quote
The fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres.
Which one seems more "Christian".
Who would you rather have a beer with?
Antelope_Wounder, you've really made a fool of yourself with this post. Unbeknown to you, the person who made the second quote was not Riflehunter, but none other than Albert Einstein (the person that you wouldn't want to have a beer with!!).
This idea that the all knowing all powerful just and kinds creator of everything would find himself in such a dilemma's preposterous.
This is more evidence against this definition of his existence.
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
Not laughter material. You really should learn the difference between the unlearned personal smears some post - seemingly due to frustrated ignorance - and the logical, objective content-based critiques of posts and the ostensible reasoning. You know - the objective evidence-based critiques that cause your ilk to itch and chafe, right after you dash at the flame. If you learn that, it may help you be a better person - or, at least, a better poster.
Now, once again, maybe post the real reason(s) that your type come to get stuck on the glue paper strip?
There you go again, desperatley trying to turn the tables, playing a rightous man, the tragic victim even while being the aggressor, hurling insults even while complaining about what you reap.
You do precisely what you accuse your opponents of.
Hey Mr. Frustration - I'm not righteous - in the least. I added some more factual info about Riflehunter's stuff to that post - maybe go read it again.
It may help you understand the key differences between what you read and what you imagine - the realty of objectivity versus the fantasy on which you base your attacks. You undermine yourself and then try to sling insults as you drop into the pit of self-delusion. Try to get a hold on something solid.
Just face the facts; nobody knows how or why the BB happened, whether there was a before (a beginning to time), what set it off, whether it is cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something yet unimagined.
The fact is we don't know.
We don't know therefore there must be a creator is neither a sound argument or a justified belief.
It is you and your crew who are claiming to know.
You claim to know because you have read it in the bible, a set of books written in ancient times when people had no idea of the scope and scale of the universe when compared to what current science has discovered, so had no real understanding of how vast the universe is.
You don't know, but pretend that you do.
You do that for a number of reasons: to provide comfort and meaning, the promise of eternal life, reunion with loved ones, etc, understandable but unsupported by evidence.....which is where faith comes into play.
Nope..... If I am presented with something that is clearly artfully and skillfully crafted, I may not HOW it was crafted, but I will know THAT it was crafted.
You are just trying to re-package the "something from nothing" baloney.
You know no such thing.
You can't seem to able to tell the difference between faith and its assumption of truth and actual knowledge.
Plus you keep invoking the strawman 'something from nothing' no matter how many time it's pointed out that I made no such claim.
Instead of making your own special rules, read what is said before responding emotionally.
Back to third grade reading comprehension for you…..
Let me dumb it down for you…..try to follow closely….
Your doorbell rings and there is a package delivered….. you open it and find a small black sphere that some how plays Waltzing Matilda over and over again…. It won’t stop playing….you can’t turn it off….there are no switches, it just keeps on playing. You don’t know why or how does this….it just keeps on doing it.
You may conclude that this black sphere exists…..you do not know who sent it to you, but here it is, playing the tune over and over again…
You don’t know HOW it works, but you know THAT it works ….because it is sitting RIGHT THERE in front of you playing that song. You don’t even know WHY it works.
Further….if you really think hard, you realize that someone made it and then even sent it to you. Hmm…. Someone made something, knew you and sent it to you.
For the most part, I've enjoyed reading the thread and the questions that come up. Asking good questions can lead to good answers. Anytime anyone has to resort to personal attacks to make a point, then I make a point to not pay much attention to that persons questions or answers. Some of the ugly crap is just a thread killer to me.
I will never pretend to have all the answers to my "why". Frankly, I'm just not smart enough to put in writing my thoughts on my faith.
I will say, there is much mis-undertanding on law vs faith, old testament vs new testament etc. But again, most folks read the Bible to "prove" a point and take the entire text out of context.
The bottom line seems to be, for my simple mind, is this............
You either believe that you are "good enough" so if there is a God he will accept you, because you know, "I'm at least better than (insert your person here) them, and if there is a God and he says he can love them, than certainly he will love me and I will get a pass".
Or, there is no God and most people are good, so you're good and we all just try to be good and then become fertilizer for the generations to come.
I believe there is more to us than the time frame we suck up oxygen here.
Nope..... If I am presented with something that is clearly artfully and skillfully crafted, I may not HOW it was crafted, but I will know THAT it was crafted. You are just trying to re-package the "something from nothing" baloney.
You know no such thing. You can't seem to able to tell the difference between faith and its assumption of truth and actual knowledge. Plus you keep invoking the strawman 'something from nothing' no matter how many time it's pointed out that I made no such claim. Instead of making your own special rules, read what is said before responding emotionally.
Back to third grade reading comprehension for you….. Let me dumb it down for you…..try to follow closely….
Your doorbell rings and there is a package delivered….. you open it and find a small black sphere that some how plays Waltzing Matilda over and over again…. It won’t stop playing….you can’t turn it off….there are no switches, it just keeps on playing. You don’t know why or how does this….it just keeps on doing it.
You may conclude that this black sphere exists…..you do not know who sent it to you, but here it is, playing the tune over and over again…You don’t know HOW it works, but you know THAT it works ….because it is sitting RIGHT THERE in front of you playing that song. You don’t even know WHY it works.
Further….if you really think hard, you realize that someone made it and then even sent it to you. Hmm…. Someone made something, knew you and sent it to you. You might even say “Remarkable.”
Or, he might say " My personal and limited human knowledge and logic systems are insufficient for understanding this completely, I hate this thing and all that it represents and expects of me, and therefore I declare that it does not exist".
Regardless of one's belief/disbelief here, there are very good examples of strong, honestly expressed intellect/knowledge/logic, versus the definite lack thereof, as antelope_sniper deftly draws out the picture of Riflehunter. Educative. Good work.
Nope..... If I am presented with something that is clearly artfully and skillfully crafted, I may not HOW it was crafted, but I will know THAT it was crafted. You are just trying to re-package the "something from nothing" baloney.
You know no such thing. You can't seem to able to tell the difference between faith and its assumption of truth and actual knowledge. Plus you keep invoking the strawman 'something from nothing' no matter how many time it's pointed out that I made no such claim. Instead of making your own special rules, read what is said before responding emotionally.
Back to third grade reading comprehension for you….. Let me dumb it down for you…..try to follow closely….
Your doorbell rings and there is a package delivered….. you open it and find a small black sphere that some how plays Waltzing Matilda over and over again…. It won’t stop playing….you can’t turn it off….there are no switches, it just keeps on playing. You don’t know why or how does this….it just keeps on doing it.
You may conclude that this black sphere exists…..you do not know who sent it to you, but here it is, playing the tune over and over again…You don’t know HOW it works, but you know THAT it works ….because it is sitting RIGHT THERE in front of you playing that song. You don’t even know WHY it works.
Further….if you really think hard, you realize that someone made it and then even sent it to you. Hmm…. Someone made something, knew you and sent it to you. You might even say “Remarkable.”
Or, he might say " My personal and limited human knowledge and logic systems are insufficient for understanding this completely, I hate this thing and all that it represents and expects of me, and therefore I declare that it does not exist".
And there you go. An mysterious musical ball that you know nothing about, nothing about its origins, and you've all ready jumped to "all that it represents and expects of me".
Unfortunately, there is a lack of honesty on this thread exhibited by many participants. They adopt a stance on a specific issue and no matter how plausible the counter argument is and how flawed their own argument, they will not concede anything at all to the counter-position. Perhaps some here should learn to be a little bit more humble. So never is agreement reached. There's also evidence of excessive trolling, by persons who should know better than to exhibit such childish behavior and weak character, which has also spoiled this thread. I just pray that even the most insignificant of you, have benefited in some small way from my wisdom.
Nope..... If I am presented with something that is clearly artfully and skillfully crafted, I may not HOW it was crafted, but I will know THAT it was crafted. You are just trying to re-package the "something from nothing" baloney.
You know no such thing. You can't seem to able to tell the difference between faith and its assumption of truth and actual knowledge. Plus you keep invoking the strawman 'something from nothing' no matter how many time it's pointed out that I made no such claim. Instead of making your own special rules, read what is said before responding emotionally.
Back to third grade reading comprehension for you….. Let me dumb it down for you…..try to follow closely….
Your doorbell rings and there is a package delivered….. you open it and find a small black sphere that some how plays Waltzing Matilda over and over again…. It won’t stop playing….you can’t turn it off….there are no switches, it just keeps on playing. You don’t know why or how does this….it just keeps on doing it.
You may conclude that this black sphere exists…..you do not know who sent it to you, but here it is, playing the tune over and over again…You don’t know HOW it works, but you know THAT it works ….because it is sitting RIGHT THERE in front of you playing that song. You don’t even know WHY it works.
Further….if you really think hard, you realize that someone made it and then even sent it to you. Hmm…. Someone made something, knew you and sent it to you. You might even say “Remarkable.”
Or, he might say " My personal and limited human knowledge and logic systems are insufficient for understanding this completely, I hate this thing and all that it represents and expects of me, and therefore I declare that it does not exist".
And there you go. An mysterious musical ball that you know nothing about, nothing about its origins, and you've all ready jumped to "all that it represents and expects of me".
Actually, not so - as you are not able to know what I know and don't know. And, as noted with the term "might", it is not a concrete assumption. It is conjecture about what one might say. And, there we go.
Unfortunately, there is a lack of honesty on this thread exhibited by many participants. They adopt a stance on a specific issue and no matter how plausible the counter argument is and how flawed their own argument, they will not concede anything at all to the counter-position. Perhaps some here should learn to be a little bit more humble. So never is agreement reached. There's also evidence of excessive trolling, by persons who should know better than to exhibit such childish behavior and weak character, which has also spoiled this thread. I just pray that even the most insignificant of you, have benefited in some small way from my wisdom.
Maybe you feel as though you deserve a mass apology - is that what you are seeking? In keeping with your many and various pronouncements in this thread about God, His disgusting behavior and your described relationship, why don't you simply do as you have done in the past? Simply instruct God what to do about all of these "many participants"? And, maybe insist/demand that he do so. Kindly let us know how your personal method works for that.
Unfortunately, there is a lack of honesty on this thread exhibited by many participants. They adopt a stance on a specific issue and no matter how plausible the counter argument is and how flawed their own argument, they will not concede anything at all to the counter-position. Perhaps some here should learn to be a little bit more humble. So never is agreement reached. There's also evidence of excessive trolling, by persons who should know better than to exhibit such childish behavior and weak character, which has also spoiled this thread. I just pray that even the most insignificant of you, have benefited in some small way from my wisdom.
The irony in the post is so thick you could cut it with a knife.
Wabigoon, whilst some have come to this thread to seek the Truth, others such as See-See-See-But-Don't-See and now Antelope_Wounder (Et Tu, Brutus?) have come to troll. But even between See-See-See-But-Don't-See and Antelope_Wounder, I've noticed the friendship between them blossom and become even stronger during this thread, as they both struggle with their sexual orientation. So let's hope that it refreshes their R-souls. And so, I must bid thee all farewell, and leave you all with this: "Even all the darkness in the universe can't extinguish the light from a single flame."
Wabigoon, whilst some have come to this thread to seek the Truth, others such as See-See-See-But-Don't-See and now Antelope_Wounder (Et Tu, Brutus?) have come to troll. But even between See-See-See-But-Don't-See and Antelope_Wounder, I've noticed the friendship between them blosom and become even stronger during this thread, as they both struggle with their sexual orientation. So let's hope that it refreshes their R-souls. And so, I must bid thee all farewell, and leave you all with this: "Even all the darkness in the universe can't extinguish the light from a single flame."
Well, maybe that seeming swan song puts an exclamation point onto the finely drawn picture - but is he also hinting that he is a flamer?
Aside from the several insights that came with this thread, it is nice to hear about that unanticipated blosom (sic).
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
Yep, I concur…. I have had similar things happen to me…. Both from “good” and from “evil.”
Not really. I do think something else is out there. What it is I don't know. If every other religion is the right one, than non are right. I've raised my kids with telling them both sides of the story. Evolution vs god. If they choose to believe ln god than that's ok. I wanted them to make up their own mind as adults and not be influenced by me when it comes to that. When you think about many wars, and senseless killing we as humans have done in name of someone's religion or god. That should make you question some things
Not really. I do think something else is out there. What it is I don't know. If every other religion is the right one, than non are right. I've raised my kids with telling them both sides of the story. Evolution vs god. If they choose to believe ln god than that's ok. I wanted them to make up their own mind as adults and not be influenced by me when it comes to that. When you think about many wars, and senseless killing we as humans have done in name of someone's religion or god. That should make you question some things
I never really wanted mine to be left to make up his own mind about drugs, drinking and driving or playing in tha street.
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
Yep, I concur…. I have had similar things happen to me…. Both from “good” and from “evil.”
Seems like they can come from “outside” me.
If these thoughts from outside your person persist, you really should considered seeking a psychiatric consultation. Seriously, I’m not saying this to be insulting or anything like that.
Also, you might considered having a trusted friend or family member control you access to firearms until your sure these thoughts are under control.
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
That is most understandable.
You suffer from the same delusion. What's a greater power? You two use the same definitions or like the warm and fuzzy that it gives you irrespective?
(BTW, you'll need to have a quiet chat with antlers about sentence structure - he provided one without a valid arguement and I had to edit it for him to strong man his arguement. Haven't heard from him since.)
Regardless of one's belief/disbelief here, there are very good examples of strong, honestly expressed intellect/knowledge/logic, versus the definite lack thereof, as antelope_sniper deftly draws out the picture of Riflehunter. Educative. Good work.
You should take that to heart and apply it to yourself, CCCC.
God: Just letting my flock know that I have appointed Riflehunter as my Deputy to help sort out the backlog of those waiting at The Gates for entry to Heaven.
Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
Not laughter material. You really should learn the difference between the unlearned personal smears some post - seemingly due to frustrated ignorance - and the logical, objective content-based critiques of posts and the ostensible reasoning. You know - the objective evidence-based critiques that cause your ilk to itch and chafe, right after you dash at the flame. If you learn that, it may help you be a better person - or, at least, a better poster.
Now, once again, maybe post the real reason(s) that your type come to get stuck on the glue paper strip?
There you go again, desperatley trying to turn the tables, playing a rightous man, the tragic victim even while being the aggressor, hurling insults even while complaining about what you reap.
You do precisely what you accuse your opponents of.
Hey Mr. Frustration - I'm not righteous - in the least. I added some more factual info about Riflehunter's stuff to that post - maybe go read it again.
It may help you understand the key differences between what you read and what you imagine - the realty of objectivity versus the fantasy on which you base your attacks. You undermine yourself and then try to sling insults as you drop into the pit of self-delusion. Try to get a hold on something solid.
Just face the facts; nobody knows how or why the BB happened, whether there was a before (a beginning to time), what set it off, whether it is cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something yet unimagined.
The fact is we don't know.
We don't know therefore there must be a creator is neither a sound argument or a justified belief.
It is you and your crew who are claiming to know.
You claim to know because you have read it in the bible, a set of books written in ancient times when people had no idea of the scope and scale of the universe when compared to what current science has discovered, so had no real understanding of how vast the universe is.
You don't know, but pretend that you do.
You do that for a number of reasons: to provide comfort and meaning, the promise of eternal life, reunion with loved ones, etc, understandable but unsupported by evidence.....which is where faith comes into play.
Nope..... If I am presented with something that is clearly artfully and skillfully crafted, I may not HOW it was crafted, but I will know THAT it was crafted.
You are just trying to re-package the "something from nothing" baloney.
You know no such thing.
You can't seem to able to tell the difference between faith and its assumption of truth and actual knowledge.
Plus you keep invoking the strawman 'something from nothing' no matter how many time it's pointed out that I made no such claim.
Instead of making your own special rules, read what is said before responding emotionally.
Back to third grade reading comprehension for you…..
Let me dumb it down for you…..try to follow closely….
Your doorbell rings and there is a package delivered….. you open it and find a small black sphere that some how plays Waltzing Matilda over and over again…. It won’t stop playing….you can’t turn it off….there are no switches, it just keeps on playing. You don’t know why or how does this….it just keeps on doing it.
You may conclude that this black sphere exists…..you do not know who sent it to you, but here it is, playing the tune over and over again…
You don’t know HOW it works, but you know THAT it works ….because it is sitting RIGHT THERE in front of you playing that song. You don’t even know WHY it works.
Further….if you really think hard, you realize that someone made it and then even sent it to you. Hmm…. Someone made something, knew you and sent it to you.
You might even say “Remarkable.”
Why are you acting so arrogant? Why are you so defensive? Why are you unable to offer a rationale argument without resorting to insults and ad homs.
Perhaps you are incapable of rational debate? Perhaps you resort to insults because that is all you are capable of?
I go with latter. Your pockets are empty and you have nothing rational to offer. You just don't have the abilty to deal with the issues being raised..
Try it. For instance, try to rationally explain why the God of the bible is said to create evil. Are you able?
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
That is most understandable.
You suffer from the same delusion. What's a greater power? You two use the same definitions or like the warm and fuzzy that it gives you irrespective?
(BTW, you'll need to have a quiet chat with antlers about sentence structure - he provided one without a valid arguement and I had to edit it for him to strong man his arguement. Haven't heard from him since.)
Mauserand9 what a faker you are - the delusional hypocrite - constantly trying to invent some basis for your attacks. This is another fail.
To tell a person that what he says is understandable is a statement about analysis and comprehension - that the message makes some sense. That has nothing to do with definitions, a greater power, argument, support or denial of a position. How sick must you be to feel that your made up stuff can be a basis on which to attack others? That is bona fide delusion. Check your false spelling of argument and be careful about the sticky paper.
Regardless of one's belief/disbelief here, there are very good examples of strong, honestly expressed intellect/knowledge/logic, versus the definite lack thereof, as antelope_sniper deftly draws out the picture of Riflehunter. Educative. Good work.
You should take that to heart and apply it to yourself, CCCC.
Accomplished - what other means would you assume I could use to arrive at that analysis and position? By the way, thanks for another demonstration of a baseless ad hom attack.
Back to third grade reading comprehension for you….. Let me dumb it down for you…..try to follow closely….
Your doorbell rings and there is a package delivered….. you open it and find a small black sphere that some how plays Waltzing Matilda over and over again…. It won’t stop playing….you can’t turn it off….there are no switches, it just keeps on playing. You don’t know why or how does this….it just keeps on doing it.
You may conclude that this black sphere exists…..you do not know who sent it to you, but here it is, playing the tune over and over again…
You don’t know HOW it works, but you know THAT it works ….because it is sitting RIGHT THERE in front of you playing that song. You don’t even know WHY it works.
Further….if you really think hard, you realize that someone made it and then even sent it to you. Hmm…. Someone made something, knew you and sent it to you.
You might even say “Remarkable.”
Why are you acting so arrogant? Why are you so defensive? Why are you unable to offer a rationale argument without resorting to insults and ad homs. Perhaps you are incapable of rational debate? Perhaps you resort to insults because that is all you are capable of? I go with latter. Your pockets are empty and you have nothing rational to offer. You just don't have the abilty to deal with the issues being raised.. Try it. For instance, try to rationally explain why the God of the bible is said to create evil. Are you able?
You seem bent on revealing your hypocrisy regarding evidence and proof. There the person gave you a concrete example - clear and logical - about how a human can respond to a mysterious situation. It is not colored with assumptions or attacks.
That directness seems like an insult to you and your methods. You responded with a bunch of derogatory questions and statements to that poster. Most of what you said comes across as a deliberate ad hom slurring. The above is analysis and comment based on hard evidence you have provided in that post - and you pretend to give advice about what another should explain?
God: Just letting my flock know that I have appointed Riflehunter as my Deputy to help sort out the backlog of those waiting at The Gates for entry to Heaven.
I was raised as a cradle Catholic and continue to follow my faith and belief in God- but in my own fashion for reasons I won't go into here. I could list many times I have had the fortune of His intercessions when I was on the edge of disaster, or hubris, or despair but without personal history in my experiences it would be hard to relate. Also, unlike many religious , I tend to keep my relationship with God and Jesus personal and internal- seldom discussing it with anyone. There are many times I think that people think that evangelizing is the equivalent of faith and I strongly disagree. Some of the people I know who exhibit their faith the most loudly are some of the least trustworthy, least generous, and least Godly people I personally know. Hypocrisy is the term that comes to mind most often.
Another point that buoys my belief in God and his creation- I know a number of very good engineers who are of non religious backgrounds. Almost to a man, they all believe there has to be an intelligent being after studying their disciplines, the order of the universe, and life as we know it. The same sentence seems to come out when we discuss this- "the math of the universe is just too perfect to have been pure chance"... you don't have to believe in God to enjoy the beauty of the universe he has provided for us. But it should make you wonder at times where it all came from IMO.
I know several people who fancy themselves scientists, including my son in law- who I like a lot and respect. But when this subject comes up I have a simple question for anyone who questions the existence of God. If you believe in the Big Bang, or any other alternate version of the creation of the universe, where did all the matter come from for the Big Bang? or any other creative building blocks? In the beginning, how did it all start? Believing in God is a lot easier to explain than believing everything in the universe came from nothing.
Not really. I do think something else is out there. What it is I don't know. If every other religion is the right one, than non are right. I've raised my kids with telling them both sides of the story. Evolution vs god. If they choose to believe ln god than that's ok. I wanted them to make up their own mind as adults and not be influenced by me when it comes to that. When you think about many wars, and senseless killing we as humans have done in name of someone's religion or god. That should make you question some things
I never really wanted mine to be left to make up his own mind about drugs, drinking and driving or playing in tha street.
Do you read what I wrote or did you not comprehend ?
God: Just letting my flock know that I have appointed Riflehunter as my Deputy to help sort out the backlog of those waiting at The Gates for entry to Heaven.
I was raised as a cradle Catholic and continue to follow my faith and belief in God- but in my own fashion for reasons I won't go into here. I could list many times I have had the fortune of His intercessions when I was on the edge of disaster, or hubris, or despair but without personal history in my experiences it would be hard to relate. Also, unlike many religious , I tend to keep my relationship with God and Jesus personal and internal- seldom discussing it with anyone. There are many times I think that people think that evangelizing is the equivalent of faith and I strongly disagree. Some of the people I know who exhibit their faith the most loudly are some of the least trustworthy, least generous, and least Godly people I personally know. Hypocrisy is the term that comes to mind most often.
Another point that buoys my belief in God and his creation- I know a number of very good engineers who are of non religious backgrounds. Almost to a man, they all believe there has to be an intelligent being after studying their disciplines, the order of the universe, and life as we know it. The same sentence seems to come out when we discuss this- "the math of the universe is just too perfect to have been pure chance"... you don't have to believe in God to enjoy the beauty of the universe he has provided for us. But it should make you wonder at times where it all came from IMO.
I know several people who fancy themselves scientists, including my son in law- who I like a lot and respect. But when this subject comes up I have a simple question for anyone who questions the existence of God. If you believe in the Big Bang, or any other alternate version of the creation of the universe, where did all the matter come from for the Big Bang? or any other creative building blocks? In the beginning, how did it all start? Believing in God is a lot easier to explain than believing everything in the universe came from nothing.
"the math of the universe is just too perfect to have been pure chance"
That's because the universe is all just a computer simulation. The language of the computer is math.
"the math of the universe is just too perfect to have been pure chance". That's because the universe is all just a computer simulation. The language of the computer is math.
And computers are created, just as the universe is.
Not really. I do think something else is out there. What it is I don't know. If every other religion is the right one, than non are right. I've raised my kids with telling them both sides of the story. Evolution vs god. If they choose to believe ln god than that's ok. I wanted them to make up their own mind as adults and not be influenced by me when it comes to that. When you think about many wars, and senseless killing we as humans have done in name of someone's religion or god. That should make you question some things
I never really wanted mine to be left to make up his own mind about drugs, drinking and driving or playing in tha street.
Do you read what I wrote or did you not comprehend ?
Dre- This is coming from somebody that believes Trump and God are either one of same or Trump is first in line to speak to God.
God: And I'm still a little bit angry with you about that Wabigoon. Because of you, I had to go through a lot of suffering. Why couldn't you just be like Riflehunter and virtually not sin at all?
"the math of the universe is just too perfect to have been pure chance". That's because the universe is all just a computer simulation. The language of the computer is math.
And computers are created, just as the universe is.
That computer and its operator where also created by a simulation, who was also created by another simulation... Turtles all the way down.
"the math of the universe is just too perfect to have been pure chance". That's because the universe is all just a computer simulation. The language of the computer is math.
And computers are created, just as the universe is.
That computer and its operator where also created by a simulation, who was also created by another simulation... Turtles all the way down.
So, answer the question- if it is a simulation where did the first simulation come from? Who made up all the components to create that simulation? And where did the simulation creators come from?
Hard to say if you're just being an ignorant troll, but the question doesn't change just because you don't believe in God...
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
That is most understandable.
You suffer from the same delusion. What's a greater power? You two use the same definitions or like the warm and fuzzy that it gives you irrespective?
(BTW, you'll need to have a quiet chat with antlers about sentence structure - he provided one without a valid arguement and I had to edit it for him to strong man his arguement. Haven't heard from him since.)
Mauserand9 what a faker you are - the delusional hypocrite - constantly trying to invent some basis for your attacks. This is another fail.
To tell a person that what he says is understandable is a statement about analysis and comprehension - that the message makes some sense. That has nothing to do with definitions, a greater power, argument, support or denial of a position. How sick must you be to feel that your made up stuff can be a basis on which to attack others? That is bona fide delusion. Check your false spelling of argument and be careful about the sticky paper.
Meh...sharing someone else's delusion adds nothing to its significance or importance. Deflecting and avoidance are very telling however, and your modus operandi. You act like a noisy blind moth around an imaginary flame.
I was raised as a cradle Catholic and continue to follow my faith and belief in God- but in my own fashion for reasons I won't go into here. I could list many times I have had the fortune of His intercessions when I was on the edge of disaster, or hubris, or despair but without personal history in my experiences it would be hard to relate. Also, unlike many religious , I tend to keep my relationship with God and Jesus personal and internal- seldom discussing it with anyone. There are many times I think that people think that evangelizing is the equivalent of faith and I strongly disagree. Some of the people I know who exhibit their faith the most loudly are some of the least trustworthy, least generous, and least Godly people I personally know. Hypocrisy is the term that comes to mind most often.
Another point that buoys my belief in God and his creation- I know a number of very good engineers who are of non religious backgrounds. Almost to a man, they all believe there has to be an intelligent being after studying their disciplines, the order of the universe, and life as we know it. The same sentence seems to come out when we discuss this- "the math of the universe is just too perfect to have been pure chance"... you don't have to believe in God to enjoy the beauty of the universe he has provided for us. But it should make you wonder at times where it all came from IMO.
I know several people who fancy themselves scientists, including my son in law- who I like a lot and respect. But when this subject comes up I have a simple question for anyone who questions the existence of God. If you believe in the Big Bang, or any other alternate version of the creation of the universe, where did all the matter come from for the Big Bang? or any other creative building blocks? In the beginning, how did it all start? Believing in God is a lot easier to explain than believing everything in the universe came from nothing.
You are confused - it's the god story that says everytbing came from nothing, courtesy of god magic. Where did a god came from?
Regardless of one's belief/disbelief here, there are very good examples of strong, honestly expressed intellect/knowledge/logic, versus the definite lack thereof, as antelope_sniper deftly draws out the picture of Riflehunter. Educative. Good work.
You should take that to heart and apply it to yourself, CCCC.
Accomplished - what other means would you assume I could use to arrive at that analysis and position? By the way, thanks for another demonstration of a baseless ad hom attack.
Accomplished? I don't believe you. You are still the same arrogant poster you have been all along.
Back to third grade reading comprehension for you….. Let me dumb it down for you…..try to follow closely….
Your doorbell rings and there is a package delivered….. you open it and find a small black sphere that some how plays Waltzing Matilda over and over again…. It won’t stop playing….you can’t turn it off….there are no switches, it just keeps on playing. You don’t know why or how does this….it just keeps on doing it.
You may conclude that this black sphere exists…..you do not know who sent it to you, but here it is, playing the tune over and over again…
You don’t know HOW it works, but you know THAT it works ….because it is sitting RIGHT THERE in front of you playing that song. You don’t even know WHY it works.
Further….if you really think hard, you realize that someone made it and then even sent it to you. Hmm…. Someone made something, knew you and sent it to you.
You might even say “Remarkable.”
Why are you acting so arrogant? Why are you so defensive? Why are you unable to offer a rationale argument without resorting to insults and ad homs. Perhaps you are incapable of rational debate? Perhaps you resort to insults because that is all you are capable of? I go with latter. Your pockets are empty and you have nothing rational to offer. You just don't have the abilty to deal with the issues being raised.. Try it. For instance, try to rationally explain why the God of the bible is said to create evil. Are you able?
You seem bent on revealing your hypocrisy regarding evidence and proof. There the person gave you a concrete example - clear and logical - about how a human can respond to a mysterious situation. It is not colored with assumptions or attacks.
That directness seems like an insult to you and your methods. You responded with a bunch of derogatory questions and statements to that poster. Most of what you said comes across as a deliberate ad hom slurring. The above is analysis and comment based on hard evidence you have provided in that post - and you pretend to give advice about what another should explain?
In other words you are incapable of rational debate or dealing with the issues being raised..so you do another dummy spit and handwaving as a means of hiding your inadequacy.
One thing I have noticed DBT is that you and mauserand9mm always show up on Religion Threads.
You are both real Pussies, you contribute nothing here. You are both PATHETIC.
You notice? Wow, aren't you observant. Now you just need to work on your manners, tolerance and decency.....and in case you haven't noticed, what with your power of observation, we are not the only one's to turn up and participate in religious threads.
Our congregation is working right now, preparing for our Easter celebration tomorrow. Expecting lots of families and kids that don’t attend church regularly. Tomorrow will be a great day, and God will be in attendance!
One thing I have noticed DBT is that you and mauserand9mm always show up on Religion Threads.
You are both real Pussies, you contribute nothing here. You are both PATHETIC.
You notice? Wow, aren't you observant. Now you just need to work on your manners, tolerance and decency.....and in case you haven't noticed, what with your power of observation, we are not the only one's to turn up and participate in religious threads.
One thing I have noticed DBT is that you and mauserand9mm always show up on Religion Threads.
You are both real Pussies, you contribute nothing here. You are both PATHETIC.
You notice? Wow, aren't you observant. Now you just need to work on your manners, tolerance and decency.....and in case you haven't noticed, what with your power of observation, we are not the only one's to turn up and participate in religious threads.
Piss off, you disgust me!
Killer, while you are looking up 'irony,' you may as well check out 'hypocrisy.' Then take a good look in the mirror.
Why is it the ones who are believers seem to be the rudest of the bunch here.? You would think the Christians would practice what they preach (pun intendent}. Like I said, I think religion is a good thing for some people, it's the zealots I cannot stand, and the ones that look down at people that don't believe. I can only imagine how many non believers that are here that are afraid to post on this thread.
We came from somewhere, I firmly believe that it's so complex that our minds are not capable of ever knowing. However, I don't think wishing or hoping something is true will make it so. .02
[quote=DBT]Its amusing that CCCC complains about ad homs and insults, which is the very essence of his own response.
Not laughter material. You really should learn the difference between the unlearned personal smears some post - seemingly due to frustrated ignorance - and the logical, objective content-based critiques of posts and the ostensible reasoning. You know - the objective evidence-based critiques that cause your ilk to itch and chafe, right after you dash at the flame. If you learn that, it may help you be a better person - or, at least, a better poster.
Now, once again, maybe post the real reason(s) that your type come to get stuck on the glue paper strip?
There you go again, desperatley trying to turn the tables, playing a rightous man, the tragic victim even while being the aggressor, hurling insults even while complaining about what you reap.
You do precisely what you accuse your opponents of.
Hey Mr. Frustration - I'm not righteous - in the least. I added some more factual info about Riflehunter's stuff to that post - maybe go read it again.
It may help you understand the key differences between what you read and what you imagine - the realty of objectivity versus the fantasy on which you base your attacks. You undermine yourself and then try to sling insults as you drop into the pit of self-delusion. Try to get a hold on something solid.
Just face the facts; nobody knows how or why the BB happened, whether there was a before (a beginning to time), what set it off, whether it is cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something yet unimagined.
The fact is we don't know.
We don't know therefore there must be a creator is neither a sound argument or a justified belief.
It is you and your crew who are claiming to know.
You claim to know because you have read it in the bible, a set of books written in ancient times when people had no idea of the scope and scale of the universe when compared to what current science has discovered, so had no real understanding of how vast the universe is.
You don't know, but pretend that you do.
You do that for a number of reasons: to provide comfort and meaning, the promise of eternal life, reunion with loved ones, etc, understandable but unsupported by evidence.....which is where faith comes into play.
Nope..... If I am presented with something that is clearly artfully and skillfully crafted, I may not HOW it was crafted, but I will know THAT it was crafted.
You are just trying to re-package the "something from nothing" baloney.
You know no such thing.
You can't seem to able to tell the difference between faith and its assumption of truth and actual knowledge.
Plus you keep invoking the strawman 'something from nothing' no matter how many time it's pointed out that I made no such claim.
Instead of making your own special rules, read what is said before responding emotionally.
Back to third grade reading comprehension for you…..
Let me dumb it down for you…..try to follow closely….
Your doorbell rings and there is a package delivered….. you open it and find a small black sphere that some how plays Waltzing Matilda over and over again…. It won’t stop playing….you can’t turn it off….there are no switches, it just keeps on playing. You don’t know why or how does this….it just keeps on doing it.
You may conclude that this black sphere exists…..you do not know who sent it to you, but here it is, playing the tune over and over again…
You don’t know HOW it works, but you know THAT it works ….because it is sitting RIGHT THERE in front of you playing that song. You don’t even know WHY it works.
Further….if you really think hard, you realize that someone made it and then even sent it to you. Hmm…. Someone made something, knew you and sent it to you.
You might even say “Remarkable.”
Seems you are again in full retreat…. Can’t back up your allegations….unable to participate in any sort of rational discussion.
Sorry you missed the point, guess I couldn’t dumb it down enough for you to either understand or offer any sort of thoughtful reply.
We hear it over and over and over and over again from the same old skeptics here with an agenda, “The Gospels can’t be accurate because they were written so long after Jesus.”
That’s no different than saying, “Nobody today can write accurately about the presidency of Ronald Reagan because it happened so long ago.”
Those two statements are literally the same.
The Gospel of Mark (for example) was written closer to Jesus’ time than we are to the time of Reagan’s presidency.
We hear it over and over and over and over again from the same old skeptics here with an agenda, “The Gospels can’t be accurate because they were written so long after Jesus.”
That’s no different than saying, “Nobody today can write accurately about the presidency of Ronald Reagan because it happened so long ago.”
Those two statements are literally the same.
The Gospel of Mark (for example) was written closer to Jesus’ time than we are to the time of Reagan’s presidency.
I don't recall the "Mark" including foot notes and a bibliography.
Heck, the text doesn't even include the authors name.
To say a modern historical work on Reagan, who only died 20 years ago is equivalent to Mark is not justified.
Heck, Mark doesn't even meet the standards of historical texts of the time.
Seems you are again in full retreat…. Can’t back up your allegations….unable to participate in any sort of rational discussion.
Sorry you missed the point, guess I couldn’t dumb it down enough for you to either understand or offer any sort of thoughtful reply.
Meh…
You didn't "dumb it down", you created a straw man.
Nope, don’t think so. Just tried to illustrate ….that one need not know HOW something was made to know THAT it was made.
Seems he either can’t admit that….or….?….who knows….
So….here we are again…. Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?
Simple question….
Edit to add: You can go check if you like…but as I recall DBT clearly stated that I, Tf49 could not know THAT something could exist without knowing HOW it came into existence. He is simply wrong ….again…and got backed into a corner and will not admit it.
I don't recall the "Mark" including foot notes and a bibliography.
NO ancient historical manuscripts have foot notes or bibliographies.
Originally Posted by antelope_snipe
Heck, the text doesn't even include the authors name.
Sure it does. But the name was Anglicized when the Gospel was translated into English.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
To say a modern historical work on Reagan, who only died 20 years ago is equivalent to Mark is not justified.
Originally Posted by antlers
The Gospel of Mark (for example) was written closer to Jesus’ time than we are to the time of Reagan’s presidency.”
Mark’s Gospel was written in 66 AD (33 years after Jesus’ crucifixion). Reagan’s presidency was from 81 to 89 (43 to 35 years ago).
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Heck, Mark doesn't even meet the standards of historical texts of the time.
Sure it does. But the fact that you feel the need to discredit absolutely any evidence…regardless of how well substantiated it is…simply because it’s associated with Jesus and Christianity isn’t the mark of a strong belief. It’s the mark of a weak and insecure belief that easily succumbs to a blind “us vs them” mentality.
Jesus has better documentation than Tiberius does, by most metrics. And it’s astonishing for a random rabbi in the middle of nowhere Judea to generate more of a paper trail than the ‘God-King’ of Rome did in 22 to 23 years as the Emperor of the known world…!
Seems you are again in full retreat…. Can’t back up your allegations….unable to participate in any sort of rational discussion.
Sorry you missed the point, guess I couldn’t dumb it down enough for you to either understand or offer any sort of thoughtful reply.
Meh…
You didn't "dumb it down", you created a straw man.
Nope, don’t think so. Just tried to illustrate ….that one need not know HOW something was made to know THAT it was made.
Seems he either can’t admit that….or….?….who knows….
So….here we are again…. Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?
Simple question….
You're conflating exists with "being made" by a sentient being. They are not synonymous.
Nope…. Keep the concept simple…..if one sees, holds and something….does that one need to know how it came into existence to KNOW it exists?
Just stick to the basic point….
Say did you just try to insert a “straw man” here?
Regarding you comment about conflating…are trying to make a case that something can be “made” without the involvement of a sentient being?
Edit to add: gotta get some sleep….will check on this tomorrow
Nope:
From The Century Dictionary
made mād noun
Created; wrought; fabricated; constructed.
Artificially produced; formed independently of natural development: as, made ground (ground made up of earth from another place); a made word. Drawn from various sources; formed of several parts or ingredients: as, a made dish; composite; built up: as, a made mast (a mast composed of several sticks bound together by iron hoops, in contradistinction to a single-spar mast).
Concocted; invented; fictitious: as, a made-up tale or excuse.
I don't recall the "Mark" including foot notes and a bibliography.
NO ancient historical manuscripts have foot notes or bibliographies.
Originally Posted by antelope_snipe
Heck, the text doesn't even include the authors name.
Sure it does. But the name was Anglicized when the Gospel was translated into English.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
To say a modern historical work on Reagan, who only died 20 years ago is equivalent to Mark is not justified.
Originally Posted by antlers
The Gospel of Mark (for example) was written closer to Jesus’ time than we are to the time of Reagan’s presidency.”
Mark’s Gospel was written in 66 AD (33 years after Jesus’ crucifixion). Reagan’s presidency was from 81 to 89 (43 to 35 years ago).
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Heck, Mark doesn't even meet the standards of historical texts of the time.
Sure it does. But the fact that you feel the need to discredit absolutely any evidence…regardless of how well substantiated it is…simply because it’s associated with Jesus and Christianity isn’t the mark of a strong belief. It’s the mark of a weak and insecure belief that easily succumbs to a blind “us vs them” mentality.
Jesus has better documentation than Tiberius does, by most metrics. And it’s astonishing for a random rabbi in the middle of nowhere Judea to generate more of a paper trail than the ‘God-King’ of Rome did in 22 to 23 years as the Emperor of the known world…!
I think it might be possible that there are ways to be a good atheist, but trying to deny the existence of well-established historical documents is not one of em’.
“This is not even an issue for scholars of antiquity.... The reason for thinking Jesus existed is because he is abundantly attested in early sources.... If you want to go where the evidence goes, I think that atheists have done themselves a disservice by jumping on the bandwagon of mythicism, because frankly, it makes you look foolish to the outside world”. - famed (atheist) historian Bart Ehrman
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
That is most understandable.
You suffer from the same delusion. What's a greater power? You two use the same definitions or like the warm and fuzzy that it gives you irrespective?
(BTW, you'll need to have a quiet chat with antlers about sentence structure - he provided one without a valid arguement and I had to edit it for him to strong man his arguement. Haven't heard from him since.)
Mauserand9 what a faker you are - the delusional hypocrite - constantly trying to invent some basis for your attacks. This is another fail.
To tell a person that what he says is understandable is a statement about analysis and comprehension - that the message makes some sense. That has nothing to do with definitions, a greater power, argument, support or denial of a position. How sick must you be to feel that your made up stuff can be a basis on which to attack others? That is bona fide delusion. Check your false spelling of argument and be careful about the sticky paper.
Meh...sharing someone else's delusion adds nothing to its significance or importance. Deflecting and avoidance are very telling however, and your modus operandi. You act like a noisy blind moth around an imaginary flame.
You are plagiarizing - merely repeating what so many have noticed in your behavior and posted here. It's the "looking in the mirror" effect. If it were your self-criticism it could be a good sign - but unlikely. What was that elementary school playground word - copycat?
Let me dumb it down for you…..try to follow closely….
No need, you are already as dumb as it gets.
Originally Posted by TF49
Seems you are again in full retreat…. Can’t back up your allegations….unable to participate in any sort of rational discussion.
Sorry you missed the point, guess I couldn’t dumb it down enough for you to either understand or offer any sort of thoughtful reply.
Meh…
Bluff and Bluster. You are full of hot air, Bud. A conceited blowhard without substance.
Not once have you attempted to deal with an issue without resorting to ad homs.
I asked you to explain why we are told in the bible that God creates evil.....and what was your response? Just more handwaving and smokescreens.
Let me try again…. Stick to the basic question…. Don’t try to change the subject or worm your way out of the question….and remember, this is in response to an allegation YOU made….. or have you forgotten?
If can you accept that if one is presented with SOMETHING, that one can believe it is real and does actually exist without knowing HOW it came to be?
Simple question..
We’re getting nothing but weasel words and avoidance for you.
You made the allegation, not me….. as usual, you cannot back up another of your empty headed charges.
But….go ahead and answer the question….what are you afraid of?
Seems you are again in full retreat…. Can’t back up your allegations….unable to participate in any sort of rational discussion.
Sorry you missed the point, guess I couldn’t dumb it down enough for you to either understand or offer any sort of thoughtful reply.
Meh…
You didn't "dumb it down", you created a straw man.
Nope, don’t think so. Just tried to illustrate ….that one need not know HOW something was made to know THAT it was made.
Seems he either can’t admit that….or….?….who knows….
So….here we are again…. Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?
Simple question….
You're conflating exists with "being made" by a sentient being. They are not synonymous.
Nope…. Keep the concept simple…..if one sees, holds and something….does that one need to know how it came into existence to KNOW it exists?
Just stick to the basic point….
Say did you just try to insert a “straw man” here?
Regarding you comment about conflating…are trying to make a case that something can be “made” without the involvement of a sentient being?
Edit to add: gotta get some sleep….will check on this tomorrow
Nope:
From The Century Dictionary
made mād noun
Created; wrought; fabricated; constructed.
Artificially produced; formed independently of natural development: as, made ground (ground made up of earth from another place); a made word. Drawn from various sources; formed of several parts or ingredients: as, a made dish; composite; built up: as, a made mast (a mast composed of several sticks bound together by iron hoops, in contradistinction to a single-spar mast).
Concocted; invented; fictitious: as, a made-up tale or excuse.
Your many words simply divert from the main issue…
So, you seem to have hinted at something and I would like to see some clarification from you….
If one is confronted with something that is been “made” or “fashioned”…..can one conclude that a sentient being was involved in the action act if “making” it?
Why is it the ones who are believers seem to be the rudest of the bunch here.? You would think the Christians would practice what they preach (pun intendent}. Like I said, I think religion is a good thing for some people, it's the zealots I cannot stand, and the ones that look down at people that don't believe. I can only imagine how many non believers that are here that are afraid to post on this thread.
We came from somewhere, I firmly believe that it's so complex that our minds are not capable of ever knowing. However, I don't think wishing or hoping something is true will make it so. .02
A lot of posts from non-believers would have to be ignored for one to agree believers are the rudest of the bunch. I do agree with you about zealotry, though....atheism often going without recognition of having more than it's fair share. Like any statement of bigotry, the litmus test is changing the target of the statement and re-reading it. Would the tone and implication still be disrespectful or offensive? The assumed entitlement to speak without any level of courtesy or respect is shared by many, with theism/atheism having nothing to do with it.
I am Catholic, I believe in a Christian God with all my heart. We also believe in the Trinity, Father, Son & Holy Spirit. I walk with other Christian's and our differences. God Bless them.
Why is it the ones who are believers seem to be the rudest of the bunch here.? You would think the Christians would practice what they preach (pun intendent}. Like I said, I think religion is a good thing for some people, it's the zealots I cannot stand, and the ones that look down at people that don't believe. I can only imagine how many non believers that are here that are afraid to post on this thread.
We came from somewhere, I firmly believe that it's so complex that our minds are not capable of ever knowing. However, I don't think wishing or hoping something is true will make it so. .02
A lot of posts from non-believers would have to be ignored for one to agree believers are the rudest of the bunch. I do agree with you about zealotry, though....atheism often going without recognition of having more than it's fair share. Like any statement of bigotry, the litmus test is changing the target of the statement and re-reading it. Would the tone and implication still be disrespectful or offensive? The assumed entitlement to speak without any level of courtesy or respect is shared by many, with theism/atheism having nothing to do with it.
People are rude here because they can get away with saying whatever they want. Nobody is rude when it could result in a punch in the mouth. There's no monopoly on rudeness here.
I think it might be possible that there are ways to be a good atheist, but trying to deny the existence of well-established historical documents is not one of em’.
“This is not even an issue for scholars of antiquity.... The reason for thinking Jesus existed is because he is abundantly attested in early sources.... If you want to go where the evidence goes, I think that atheists have done themselves a disservice by jumping on the bandwagon of mythicism, because frankly, it makes you look foolish to the outside world”. - famed (atheist) historian Bart Ehrman
Bart Ehrman was still a Christian when that was recorded.
You like to focus on 4 gospels, but in total we have portions, or complete copies of over 60 gospels and know of another 40+ from citations from other written works. It's interesting how you don't accept the other 96+ and their fantastical tales, but this is part of the evidentiary fabric regarding the historical reliability of gospels.
Seems you are again in full retreat…. Can’t back up your allegations….unable to participate in any sort of rational discussion.
Sorry you missed the point, guess I couldn’t dumb it down enough for you to either understand or offer any sort of thoughtful reply.
Meh…
You didn't "dumb it down", you created a straw man.
Nope, don’t think so. Just tried to illustrate ….that one need not know HOW something was made to know THAT it was made.
Seems he either can’t admit that….or….?….who knows….
So….here we are again…. Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?
Simple question….
You're conflating exists with "being made" by a sentient being. They are not synonymous.
Nope…. Keep the concept simple…..if one sees, holds and something….does that one need to know how it came into existence to KNOW it exists?
Just stick to the basic point….
Say did you just try to insert a “straw man” here?
Regarding you comment about conflating…are trying to make a case that something can be “made” without the involvement of a sentient being?
Edit to add: gotta get some sleep….will check on this tomorrow
Nope:
From The Century Dictionary
made mād noun
Created; wrought; fabricated; constructed.
Artificially produced; formed independently of natural development: as, made ground (ground made up of earth from another place); a made word. Drawn from various sources; formed of several parts or ingredients: as, a made dish; composite; built up: as, a made mast (a mast composed of several sticks bound together by iron hoops, in contradistinction to a single-spar mast).
Concocted; invented; fictitious: as, a made-up tale or excuse.
Your many words simply divert from the main issue…
So, you seem to have hinted at something and I would like to see some clarification from you….
If one is confronted with something that is been “made” or “fashioned”…..can one conclude that a sentient being was involved in the action act if “making” it?
Words have meaning.
You are intentionally conflation words with different meanings to confuse the point.
Seems you are again in full retreat…. Can’t back up your allegations….unable to participate in any sort of rational discussion.
Sorry you missed the point, guess I couldn’t dumb it down enough for you to either understand or offer any sort of thoughtful reply.
Meh…
You didn't "dumb it down", you created a straw man.
Nope, don’t think so. Just tried to illustrate ….that one need not know HOW something was made to know THAT it was made.
Seems he either can’t admit that….or….?….who knows….
So….here we are again…. Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?
Simple question….
You're conflating exists with "being made" by a sentient being. They are not synonymous.
Nope…. Keep the concept simple…..if one sees, holds and something….does that one need to know how it came into existence to KNOW it exists?
Just stick to the basic point….
Say did you just try to insert a “straw man” here?
Regarding you comment about conflating…are trying to make a case that something can be “made” without the involvement of a sentient being?
Edit to add: gotta get some sleep….will check on this tomorrow
Nope:
From The Century Dictionary
made mād noun
Created; wrought; fabricated; constructed.
Artificially produced; formed independently of natural development: as, made ground (ground made up of earth from another place); a made word. Drawn from various sources; formed of several parts or ingredients: as, a made dish; composite; built up: as, a made mast (a mast composed of several sticks bound together by iron hoops, in contradistinction to a single-spar mast).
Concocted; invented; fictitious: as, a made-up tale or excuse.
Your many words simply divert from the main issue…
So, you seem to have hinted at something and I would like to see some clarification from you….
If one is confronted with something that is been “made” or “fashioned”…..can one conclude that a sentient being was involved in the action act if “making” it?
Words have meaning.
You are intentionally conflation words with different meanings to confuse the point.
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Bart Ehrman was still a Christian when that was recorded.
He was STILL a world renowned expert on the New Testament manuscripts in their ORIGINAL language too.
Bart Ehrman did NOT lose his faith because of anything IN the Bible or because of anything ABOUT the Bible. He has made that abundantly clear. Bart Ehrman lost his faith because he couldn’t resolve a good and loving God with the pain and suffering in the world. He has made that abundantly clear as well.
One he lost his faith, he THEN went looking for ‘proof’ and reasons to substantiate his new beliefs ~ a crystal clear case of confirmation bias.
Bart Ehrman did NOT lose his faith because of anything IN the Bible or because of anything ABOUT the Bible. He has made that abundantly clear. Bart Ehrman lost his faith because he couldn’t resolve a good and loving God with the pain and suffering in the world. He has made that abundantly clear as well.
One he lost his faith, he THEN went looking for ‘proof’ and reasons to substantiate his new beliefs ~ a crystal clear case of confirmation bias.
Why Bart lost his faith was not part of my argument, just his scholarship, and the clip I chose was from his days as a Christian, so you're arguing with yourself.
Why is it the ones who are believers seem to be the rudest of the bunch here.? You would think the Christians would practice what they preach (pun intendent}. Like I said, I think religion is a good thing for some people, it's the zealots I cannot stand, and the ones that look down at people that don't believe. I can only imagine how many non believers that are here that are afraid to post on this thread.
We came from somewhere, I firmly believe that it's so complex that our minds are not capable of ever knowing. However, I don't think wishing or hoping something is true will make it so. .02
A lot of posts from non-believers would have to be ignored for one to agree believers are the rudest of the bunch. I do agree with you about zealotry, though....atheism often going without recognition of having more than it's fair share. Like any statement of bigotry, the litmus test is changing the target of the statement and re-reading it. Would the tone and implication still be disrespectful or offensive? The assumed entitlement to speak without any level of courtesy or respect is shared by many, with theism/atheism having nothing to do with it.
People are rude here because they can get away with saying whatever they want. Nobody is rude when it could result in a punch in the mouth. There's no monopoly on rudeness here.
Kindly explain how a punch in the mouth is an appropriate response to speech that you decide is rude.
Why Bart lost his faith was not part of my argument,…
It was part of mine. His clear confirmation bias after he lost his faith is an important consideration.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
…just his scholarship, and the clip I chose was from his days as a Christian, so you're arguing with yourself.
Hardly. As Bart Ehrman concedes to this very day, there is a staggeringly large amount of evidence to suggest that Jesus clearly existed.
I don't believe that's an accurate representation of his position, and even if it was, that's fine, he and I can have different interpretations of the implication of the facts at hand. Either way, the 4 gospels remain anonymous works.
I don't believe that's an accurate representation of his position,…
Of course you don’t. You’ve arrived at your beliefs based on what you find attractive; your beliefs have zero to do with proof.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
…and even if it was, that's fine, he and I can have different interpretations of the implication of the facts at hand. Either way, the 4 gospels remain anonymous works.
And you and I can have different interpretations of the implications of the facts at hand as well.
There’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Homer was the actual author of the Iliad. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Herodotus was the actual author of History. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Plato was the actual author of Tetralogies. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Caesar was the actual author of Gallic Wars.
Incidentally, Iliad was written in 800 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 400 BC. That’s a time gap of 400 years…! And History was written between 480 - 425 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 10th century. That’s a time gap of 1,350 years…! And Tetralogies was written in 400 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 895. That’s a time gap of 1,300 years…! And Gallic Wars was written between 100 - 44 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 9th century. That’s a time gap of 950 years…!
The New Testament was written between 50 - 100 AD and the earliest manuscript we have dates to no later than 130 AD. That’s a time gap of 40 years.
Why is it the ones who are believers seem to be the rudest of the bunch here.? You would think the Christians would practice what they preach (pun intendent}. Like I said, I think religion is a good thing for some people, it's the zealots I cannot stand, and the ones that look down at people that don't believe. I can only imagine how many non believers that are here that are afraid to post on this thread.
We came from somewhere, I firmly believe that it's so complex that our minds are not capable of ever knowing. However, I don't think wishing or hoping something is true will make it so. .02
A lot of posts from non-believers would have to be ignored for one to agree believers are the rudest of the bunch. I do agree with you about zealotry, though....atheism often going without recognition of having more than it's fair share. Like any statement of bigotry, the litmus test is changing the target of the statement and re-reading it. Would the tone and implication still be disrespectful or offensive? The assumed entitlement to speak without any level of courtesy or respect is shared by many, with theism/atheism having nothing to do with it.
People are rude here because they can get away with saying whatever they want. Nobody is rude when it could result in a punch in the mouth. There's no monopoly on rudeness here.
Kindly explain how a bunch in the mouth is an appropriate response to speech that you decide is rude.
Well, there's rude then there's punch in the mouth rude. Not too hard to tell the difference around here. The first one will just get rude back, the second one gets you knocked on your ass.
We hear it over and over and over and over again from the same old skeptics here with an agenda, “The Gospels can’t be accurate because they were written so long after Jesus.”
That’s no different than saying, “Nobody today can write accurately about the presidency of Ronald Reagan because it happened so long ago.”
Those two statements are literally the same.
The Gospel of Mark (for example) was written closer to Jesus’ time than we are to the time of Reagan’s presidency.
Meh...the gospels are anonymous and not eyewitness accounts. You're trying to invent credibility to your case by using an invalid comparison - you must be weak in your faith to flounder with failed attempts at reasonable justification.
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
That is most understandable.
You suffer from the same delusion. What's a greater power? You two use the same definitions or like the warm and fuzzy that it gives you irrespective?
(BTW, you'll need to have a quiet chat with antlers about sentence structure - he provided one without a valid arguement and I had to edit it for him to strong man his arguement. Haven't heard from him since.)
Mauserand9 what a faker you are - the delusional hypocrite - constantly trying to invent some basis for your attacks. This is another fail.
To tell a person that what he says is understandable is a statement about analysis and comprehension - that the message makes some sense. That has nothing to do with definitions, a greater power, argument, support or denial of a position. How sick must you be to feel that your made up stuff can be a basis on which to attack others? That is bona fide delusion. Check your false spelling of argument and be careful about the sticky paper.
Meh...sharing someone else's delusion adds nothing to its significance or importance. Deflecting and avoidance are very telling however, and your modus operandi. You act like a noisy blind moth around an imaginary flame.
You are plagiarizing - merely repeating what so many have noticed in your behavior and posted here. It's the "looking in the mirror" effect. If it were your self-criticism it could be a good sign - but unlikely. What was that elementary school playground word - copycat?
LOL!!! Another Class Clown fail. If you'd spent less time being a wanker you may have achieved something purposeful in your life - being a troll must suck.
I'm not just a copy cat believer in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit like so many so-called christians. I've had PLENTY of time under a welding hood to ponder things over the last 40 years burning wire, including this subject.
I believe in spiritual destiny. That being everyone of us is here for a reason and on the exact path we are supposed to follow. The good, the bad, the indifferent, and the downright evil m'effers. Everything, and everyone is interconnected and what we do with our lives matters to those we come in contact with, however that is across the span of our lives. Maybe we don't see it, maybe we will never even know it, but it all matters. When God's Grace happens, and good things are bestowed upon us, or someone else, we are supposed to recognize it and be grateful. When something bad happens, we are supposed to look at it, in it, around it, for something, anything that has meaning to our own individual existence here, and do what we can to help those that have been hurt.
If you can't fathom any of that with an open free thinking mind, without it being spelled out in every minute detail ad nauseum, then you need to go spend your own 40 years under a welding hood. Your existence here, and the life you are living, is not random, or irrelevant.
I also believe this Great Nation was founded with Divine Providence. How else could a rag tag bunch of farmers defeat the most powerful and well funded military force on the planet, and go on to devise the best and most fair system of self governance ever thought up in the history of mankind. That was squarely the hand of God.
Seems you are again in full retreat…. Can’t back up your allegations….unable to participate in any sort of rational discussion.
Sorry you missed the point, guess I couldn’t dumb it down enough for you to either understand or offer any sort of thoughtful reply.
Meh…
You didn't "dumb it down", you created a straw man.
Nope, don’t think so. Just tried to illustrate ….that one need not know HOW something was made to know THAT it was made.
Seems he either can’t admit that….or….?….who knows….
So….here we are again…. Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?
Simple question….
You're conflating exists with "being made" by a sentient being. They are not synonymous.
Nope…. Keep the concept simple…..if one sees, holds and something….does that one need to know how it came into existence to KNOW it exists?
Just stick to the basic point….
Say did you just try to insert a “straw man” here?
Regarding you comment about conflating…are trying to make a case that something can be “made” without the involvement of a sentient being?
Edit to add: gotta get some sleep….will check on this tomorrow
Nope:
From The Century Dictionary
made mād noun
Created; wrought; fabricated; constructed.
Artificially produced; formed independently of natural development: as, made ground (ground made up of earth from another place); a made word. Drawn from various sources; formed of several parts or ingredients: as, a made dish; composite; built up: as, a made mast (a mast composed of several sticks bound together by iron hoops, in contradistinction to a single-spar mast).
Concocted; invented; fictitious: as, a made-up tale or excuse.
Your many words simply divert from the main issue…
So, you seem to have hinted at something and I would like to see some clarification from you….
If one is confronted with something that is been “made” or “fashioned”…..can one conclude that a sentient being was involved in the action act if “making” it?
Words have meaning.
You are intentionally conflation words with different meanings to confuse the point.
Whoa.... lots of bobbing and weaving here.....
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
That is most understandable.
You suffer from the same delusion. What's a greater power? You two use the same definitions or like the warm and fuzzy that it gives you irrespective?
(BTW, you'll need to have a quiet chat with antlers about sentence structure - he provided one without a valid arguement and I had to edit it for him to strong man his arguement. Haven't heard from him since.)
Mauserand9 what a faker you are - the delusional hypocrite - constantly trying to invent some basis for your attacks. This is another fail.
To tell a person that what he says is understandable is a statement about analysis and comprehension - that the message makes some sense. That has nothing to do with definitions, a greater power, argument, support or denial of a position. How sick must you be to feel that your made up stuff can be a basis on which to attack others? That is bona fide delusion. Check your false spelling of argument and be careful about the sticky paper.
Meh...sharing someone else's delusion adds nothing to its significance or importance. Deflecting and avoidance are very telling however, and your modus operandi. You act like a noisy blind moth around an imaginary flame.
You are plagiarizing - merely repeating what so many have noticed in your behavior and posted here. It's the "looking in the mirror" effect. If it were your self-criticism it could be a good sign - but unlikely. What was that elementary school playground word - copycat?
LOL!!! Another Class Clown fail. If you'd spent less time being a wanker you may have achieved something purposeful in your life - being a troll must suck.
If it weren't for your habitual plagiarizing, empty and meaningless crass ad hom attacks on others would constitute your repertoire.
I don't believe that's an accurate representation of his position,…
Of course you don’t. You’ve arrived at your beliefs based on what you find attractive; your beliefs have zero to do with proof.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
…and even if it was, that's fine, he and I can have different interpretations of the implication of the facts at hand. Either way, the 4 gospels remain anonymous works.
And you and I can have different interpretations of the implications of the facts at hand as well.
There’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Homer was the actual author of the Iliad. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Herodotus was the actual author of History. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Plato was the actual author of Tetralogies. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Caesar was the actual author of Gallic Wars.
Actually, we know the Iliad was most certainly NOT written by a single "Homer". It was revised, changed and edited by multiple authors over a period of 100+ years.
Incidentally, Iliad was written in 800 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 400 BC. That’s a time gap of 400 years…! And History was written between 480 - 425 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 10th century. That’s a time gap of 1,350 years…! And Tetralogies was written in 400 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 895. That’s a time gap of 1,300 years…! And Gallic Wars was written between 100 - 44 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 9th century. That’s a time gap of 950 years…!
The New Testament was written between 50 - 100 AD and the earliest manuscript we have dates to no later than 130 AD. That’s a time gap of 40 years.
130 AD?? Unless that's a very recent find, it's just not true.
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
I've already called out the word game you are playing and why it doesn't prove what you think it proves.
Here’s my two cents worth. I was raised Catholic but since then nothing one way or the other. Now about a month ago I had a thought so evil that I came to a realization. There has to be an evil spirit or devil to put such thoughts into an average fellow. Because of this I now know there must be a God. You guys can argue all you want about stuff like heaven or hell but after this happened I know there is a greater power. The End! Edk
That is most understandable.
You suffer from the same delusion. What's a greater power? You two use the same definitions or like the warm and fuzzy that it gives you irrespective?
(BTW, you'll need to have a quiet chat with antlers about sentence structure - he provided one without a valid arguement and I had to edit it for him to strong man his arguement. Haven't heard from him since.)
Mauserand9 what a faker you are - the delusional hypocrite - constantly trying to invent some basis for your attacks. This is another fail.
To tell a person that what he says is understandable is a statement about analysis and comprehension - that the message makes some sense. That has nothing to do with definitions, a greater power, argument, support or denial of a position. How sick must you be to feel that your made up stuff can be a basis on which to attack others? That is bona fide delusion. Check your false spelling of argument and be careful about the sticky paper.
Meh...sharing someone else's delusion adds nothing to its significance or importance. Deflecting and avoidance are very telling however, and your modus operandi. You act like a noisy blind moth around an imaginary flame.
You are plagiarizing - merely repeating what so many have noticed in your behavior and posted here. It's the "looking in the mirror" effect. If it were your self-criticism it could be a good sign - but unlikely. What was that elementary school playground word - copycat?
LOL!!! Another Class Clown fail. If you'd spent less time being a wanker you may have achieved something purposeful in your life - being a troll must suck.
If it weren't for your habitual plagiarizing, empty and meaningless crass ad hom attacks on others would constitute your repertoire.
Same old, same old...I guess you learned little while sitting in the dunce corner for all those years. Crying shame.
I'm not just a copy cat believer in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit like so many so-called christians. I've had PLENTY of time under a welding hood to ponder things over the last 40 years burning wire, including this subject.
I believe in spiritual destiny. That being everyone of us is here for a reason and on the exact path we are supposed to follow. The good, the bad, the indifferent, and the downright evil m'effers. Everything, and everyone is interconnected and what we do with our lives matters to those we come in contact with, however that is across the span of our lives. Maybe we don't see it, maybe we will never even know it, but it all matters. When God's Grace happens, and good things are bestowed upon us, or someone else, we are supposed to recognize it and be grateful. When something bad happens, we are supposed to look at it, in it, around it, for something, anything that has meaning to our own individual existence here, and do what we can to help those that have been hurt.
If you can't fathom any of that with an open free thinking mind, without it being spelled out in every minute detail ad nauseum, then you need to go spend your own 40 years under a welding hood. Your existence here, and the life you are living, is not random, or irrelevant.
I also believe this Great Nation was founded with Divine Providence. How else could a rag tag bunch of farmers defeat the most powerful and well funded military force on the planet, and go on to devise the best and most fair system of self governance ever thought up in the history of mankind. That was squarely the hand of God.
I am perfectly content with my beliefs.
Your delusion runs deep. You typed plenty, pity it doesn't mean a whole lot in reality.
Incidentally, Iliad was written in 800 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 400 BC. That’s a time gap of 400 years…! And History was written between 480 - 425 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 10th century. That’s a time gap of 1,350 years…! And Tetralogies was written in 400 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 895. That’s a time gap of 1,300 years…! And Gallic Wars was written between 100 - 44 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 9th century. That’s a time gap of 950 years…!
The New Testament was written between 50 - 100 AD and the earliest manuscript we have dates to no later than 130 AD. That’s a time gap of 40 years.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
130 AD?? Unless that's a very recent find, it's just not true.
You clearly don't want to believe the truth ~ you clearly want the truth to be what you believe.
ALL of the books of the New Testament were written within a lifetime of the death of Jesus. Period.
The truth is nothing to be pissed about,...it's just the truth. I didn’t make it the truth,...it just *is*. It'd still be the truth if I never even mentioned it.
I don't believe that's an accurate representation of his position,…
Of course you don’t. You’ve arrived at your beliefs based on what you find attractive; your beliefs have zero to do with proof.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
…and even if it was, that's fine, he and I can have different interpretations of the implication of the facts at hand. Either way, the 4 gospels remain anonymous works.
And you and I can have different interpretations of the implications of the facts at hand as well.
There’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Homer was the actual author of the Iliad. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Herodotus was the actual author of History. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Plato was the actual author of Tetralogies. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Caesar was the actual author of Gallic Wars.
Actually, we know the Iliad was most certainly NOT written by a single "Homer". It was revised, changed and edited by multiple authors over a period of 100+ years.
AS: How is it that Antlers hasn't put you on ignore? I was going to send him a PM and was informed I couldn't. I am wounded to the bone. I believe in Jesus and his teachings and you are best (or worst) an agnostic but it is me that he throws aside. Life isn't fair.
ALL of the books of the New Testament were written within a lifetime of the death of Jesus. Period.
LOL!!!! Even if that were true, so what? People can make up stories at any time. Anonymous authors, no eyewitnesses, no limit to the departure from reality.
I don't believe that's an accurate representation of his position,…
Of course you don’t. You’ve arrived at your beliefs based on what you find attractive; your beliefs have zero to do with proof.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
…and even if it was, that's fine, he and I can have different interpretations of the implication of the facts at hand. Either way, the 4 gospels remain anonymous works.
And you and I can have different interpretations of the implications of the facts at hand as well.
There’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Homer was the actual author of the Iliad. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Herodotus was the actual author of History. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Plato was the actual author of Tetralogies. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Caesar was the actual author of Gallic Wars.
Actually, we know the Iliad was most certainly NOT written by a single "Homer". It was revised, changed and edited by multiple authors over a period of 100+ years.
AS: How is it that Antlers hasn't put you on ignore? I was going to send him a PM and was informed I couldn't. I am wounded to the bone. I believe in Jesus and his teachings and you are best (or worst) an agnostic but it is me that he throws aside. Life isn't fair.
You're the wrong type of Christian, even worse than an atheist.
Incidentally, Iliad was written in 800 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 400 BC. That’s a time gap of 400 years…! And History was written between 480 - 425 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 10th century. That’s a time gap of 1,350 years…! And Tetralogies was written in 400 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to 895. That’s a time gap of 1,300 years…! And Gallic Wars was written between 100 - 44 BC and the earliest manuscript we have dates to the 9th century. That’s a time gap of 950 years…!
The New Testament was written between 50 - 100 AD and the earliest manuscript we have dates to no later than 130 AD. That’s a time gap of 40 years.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
130 AD?? Unless that's a very recent find, it's just not true.
You clearly don't want to believe the truth ~ you clearly want the truth to be what you believe.
ALL of the books of the New Testament were written within a lifetime of the death of Jesus. Period.
The truth is nothing to be pissed about,...it's just the truth. I didn’t make it the truth,...it just *is*. It'd still be the truth if I never even mentioned it.
Except the part where it's not even close to the truth.
I don't believe that's an accurate representation of his position,…
Of course you don’t. You’ve arrived at your beliefs based on what you find attractive; your beliefs have zero to do with proof.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
…and even if it was, that's fine, he and I can have different interpretations of the implication of the facts at hand. Either way, the 4 gospels remain anonymous works.
And you and I can have different interpretations of the implications of the facts at hand as well.
There’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Homer was the actual author of the Iliad. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Herodotus was the actual author of History. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Plato was the actual author of Tetralogies. And there’s NO WAY that you can be certain that Caesar was the actual author of Gallic Wars.
Actually, we know the Iliad was most certainly NOT written by a single "Homer". It was revised, changed and edited by multiple authors over a period of 100+ years.
AS: How is it that Antlers hasn't put you on ignore? I was going to send him a PM and was informed I couldn't. I am wounded to the bone. I believe in Jesus and his teachings and you are best (or worst) an agnostic but it is me that he throws aside. Life isn't fair.
Well, it's hard to say, only he knows for sure, but I'll try to make my best guess.
You've done your best to read the Bible honestly, and in the process notices some significant divergences between the gospels and writing of "Paul". (I put Paul in quotes because we know not all the works attributed to him were written by the same hand.) As a result you've chosen to set aside this portion of the NT as non-canonical for your personal faith.
For many Christian this would create a heavy load of cognitive dissidence. It's often held that God is essentially perfect, and the Bible is his perfect work. But if Bible is so imperfect that reasonable, well intended Christians are setting aside great swaths of it, is it really perfect, and what does that say about their God? Now if an atheist is saying it, well, that's easy to ignore, but from a fellow Christian, that can be different.
For some, this is not something they wish to contemplate so they hide it way behind an ignore function.
Is that what happened here? I don't know. But I've quoted you here for Antler's to see, and it's up to him to decide if he wished to reach out and perhaps have a private discussion with you.
For the honest skeptics, as opposed to those who dismiss offhand the existence of well-established historical documents simply because it’s associated with Jesus and Christianity (which they clearly do not like):
• You have access to the Gospel accounts. • You have a bunch of people who claim to have known a man named Jesus, eaten and traveled and talked with him for years. • They claimed He was a great teacher and person who initiated a new movement that reconciled people to God. • And they claimed He did supernatural acts. They clearly believed He could do miracles. And they claimed to have seen them. • And they claimed He was God. • You have a group of people swearing up and down that it’s true. They’re willing to provide details, eyewitnesses, specific quotes, names and dates and places. • Every one of the writers went to their graves swearing up and down that every word is the Gospel truth.
I'm not just a copy cat believer in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit like so many so-called christians. I've had PLENTY of time under a welding hood to ponder things over the last 40 years burning wire, including this subject.
I believe in spiritual destiny. That being everyone of us is here for a reason and on the exact path we are supposed to follow. The good, the bad, the indifferent, and the downright evil m'effers. Everything, and everyone is interconnected and what we do with our lives matters to those we come in contact with, however that is across the span of our lives. Maybe we don't see it, maybe we will never even know it, but it all matters. When God's Grace happens, and good things are bestowed upon us, or someone else, we are supposed to recognize it and be grateful. When something bad happens, we are supposed to look at it, in it, around it, for something, anything that has meaning to our own individual existence here, and do what we can to help those that have been hurt.
If you can't fathom any of that with an open free thinking mind, without it being spelled out in every minute detail ad nauseum, then you need to go spend your own 40 years under a welding hood. Your existence here, and the life you are living, is not random, or irrelevant.
I also believe this Great Nation was founded with Divine Providence. How else could a rag tag bunch of farmers defeat the most powerful and well funded military force on the planet, and go on to devise the best and most fair system of self governance ever thought up in the history of mankind. That was squarely the hand of God.
I am perfectly content with my beliefs.
Your delusion runs deep. You typed plenty, pity it doesn't mean a whole lot in reality.
And you're doing a FANTASTIC job following YOUR destined path.
Our Easter celebration was a success. Lots of first time kids/families, as well as our regular group. Our new preacher did an excellent job, as did all our volunteers. We went home a tired congregation! Next big event will be Vacation Bible School. Several churches in our are had Easter programs today as well. Some churches have theirs next week. Just a snapshot of Christianity in rural N.C.
For the honest skeptics, as opposed to those who dismiss offhand the existence of well-established historical documents simply because it’s associated with Jesus and Christianity (which they clearly do not like):
• You have access to the Gospel accounts. • You have a bunch of people who claim to have known a man named Jesus, eaten and traveled and talked with him for years. • They claimed He was a great teacher and person who initiated a new movement that reconciled people to God. • And they claimed He did supernatural acts. They clearly believed He could do miracles. And they claimed to have seen them. • And they claimed He was God. • You have a group of people swearing up and down that it’s true. They’re willing to provide details, eyewitnesses, specific quotes, names and dates and places. • Every one of the writers went to their graves swearing up and down that every word is the Gospel truth.
Read em’ and make up your own mind.
I've also read the one's where The Cross flies and talks and Jesus kills and resurrects his playmates as a child, and the one where Judas is the hero of the story.
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
I've already called out the word game you are playing and why it doesn't prove what you think it proves.
The universe exists.
We do not know how it came to exist.
That does not mean "god did it".
So, you make assumptions of what I said in the discussions... then argue against a point I never made regarding these two HOW/KNOW postings. What kind of conflating... or ...straw man or red herring is that?
You use the same word twisting you castigate others for.....
Since you have brought God into the discussion, let's run with that for a bit....ok
You did say that the universe does indeed exist and further state that "That does not mean 'god did it'."
BUT, the current view of the "astrophysicists" of today all seem to believe that the universe had a "sudden" and dramatic beginning. Big Bang or "everything everywhere all at once" is what I read being talked about. Some how SOMETHING happened and the Universe just came into being....Right? (And don't give me that Magic Larry nonsense about the "Universe from Nothing." He's been proven to be a degenerate fraud and a self serving book seller.)
So, SOMETHING happened and the UNIVERSE is just suddenly.... HERE. Of course, there those that would say, "Well we don't HOW the universe began, but we KNOW that it did." It did indeed come into existence... but HOW is an important question.
Now... let me state as I understand YOUR meaning ..... You said.. paraphrased.... .."If there is evidence that something has been MADE, that implies the involvement of a sentient being."
So, let me ask all who are reading this post..... Do you see in the world around you..... the stars, landscapes, oceans, deserts, plants, animals and of course ...us humans.....Do you see evidence that this world and this universe has been MADE?
Many have posted on this thread that they sense a "sentient being" when they behold nature, the stars and the world. I agree.
So there are really two logical choices when one regards the origin of all we see in this world today.... A or B
A - "Everything we see came from Nothing and we literally have no idea of how or why."
B - A great and almighty powerful "sentient being" MADE the Universe and this World and US.
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
I've already called out the word game you are playing and why it doesn't prove what you think it proves.
The universe exists.
We do not know how it came to exist.
That does not mean "god did it".
So, you make assumptions of what I said in the discussions... then argue against a point I never made regarding these two HOW/KNOW postings. What kind of conflating... or ...straw man or red herring is that?
You use the same word twisting you castigate others for.....
Since you have brought God into the discussion, let's run with that for a bit....ok
You did say that the universe does indeed exist and further state that "That does not mean 'god did it'."
BUT, the current view of the "astrophysicists" of today all seem to believe that the universe had a "sudden" and dramatic beginning. Big Bang or "everything everywhere all at once" is what I read being talked about. Some how SOMETHING happened and the Universe just came into being....Right? (And don't give me that Magic Larry nonsense about the "Universe from Nothing." He's been proven to be a degenerate a fraud and just a self serving book seller.)
So, SOMTHING happened and the UNIVERSE is just suddenly HERE. Of course, there those that would say, "Well we don't HOW the universe began, but we KNOW that it did." It did indeed come into existence... but HOW is indeed an intriguing question.
Now... let me state as I understand YOUR meaning ..... You said.. paraphrased.... .."If there is evidence that something has been MADE, that implies the involvement of a sentient being."
So, let me ask all who are reading this post..... Do you see in the world around you..... the landscapes, oceans, deserts, plants, animals and of course ...us humans.....Do you see evidence that this world and this universe has been MADE?
Many have posted on this thread that they sense a "sentient being" when they behold nature, the stars and the world. I agree.
So there are really two logical choices when one regards the origin of all we see in this world today.... A or B
A - "Everything we see came from Nothing and we literally have no idea of how or why."
B - A great and almighty powerful "sentient being" MADE the Universe and this World and US.
I ,as do many of you..... vote "B"
You're wrong about the current understand of The Big Bang and it's implication for the early universe:
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
I've already called out the word game you are playing and why it doesn't prove what you think it proves.
The universe exists.
We do not know how it came to exist.
That does not mean "god did it".
So, you make assumptions of what I said in the discussions... then argue against a point I never made regarding these two HOW/KNOW postings. What kind of conflating... or ...straw man or red herring is that?
You use the same word twisting you castigate others for.....
Since you have brought God into the discussion, let's run with that for a bit....ok
You did say that the universe does indeed exist and further state that "That does not mean 'god did it'."
BUT, the current view of the "astrophysicists" of today all seem to believe that the universe had a "sudden" and dramatic beginning. Big Bang or "everything everywhere all at once" is what I read being talked about. Some how SOMETHING happened and the Universe just came into being....Right? (And don't give me that Magic Larry nonsense about the "Universe from Nothing." He's been proven to be a degenerate a fraud and just a self serving book seller.)
So, SOMTHING happened and the UNIVERSE is just suddenly HERE. Of course, there those that would say, "Well we don't HOW the universe began, but we KNOW that it did." It did indeed come into existence... but HOW is indeed an intriguing question.
Now... let me state as I understand YOUR meaning ..... You said.. paraphrased.... .."If there is evidence that something has been MADE, that implies the involvement of a sentient being."
So, let me ask all who are reading this post..... Do you see in the world around you..... the landscapes, oceans, deserts, plants, animals and of course ...us humans.....Do you see evidence that this world and this universe has been MADE?
Many have posted on this thread that they sense a "sentient being" when they behold nature, the stars and the world. I agree.
So there are really two logical choices when one regards the origin of all we see in this world today.... A or B
A - "Everything we see came from Nothing and we literally have no idea of how or why."
B - A great and almighty powerful "sentient being" MADE the Universe and this World and US.
I ,as do many of you..... vote "B"
You're wrong about the current understand of The Big Bang and it's implication for the early universe:
Nope, not off target at all…. The real issue, the one you try to avoid is not what I propose about the origin of the universe…..this video is just your attempt to divert …..and hide.
Did this narrator list not one but at least a half a dozen ill defined theories about possible alternatives or variations to the big bang….or what ever happened at the beginning? Yes he did….
Did the narrator offer a single most viable theory to the origin of the universe? No, he did not.
You are resorting to 13 minutes of bafflegab in a weak attempt to avoid the real issue.
The real issue is not about which theory is most current or even accurate…
You remind me those twerps that “abstain” or even “flee” when the time to vote…..or act comes upon us.
“A” or “B”……. Or perhaps “F”….for fear of being exposed.
I will mark you down as “abstaining for lack of conviction.”
I'm not just a copy cat believer in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit like so many so-called christians. I've had PLENTY of time under a welding hood to ponder things over the last 40 years burning wire, including this subject.
I believe in spiritual destiny. That being everyone of us is here for a reason and on the exact path we are supposed to follow. The good, the bad, the indifferent, and the downright evil m'effers. Everything, and everyone is interconnected and what we do with our lives matters to those we come in contact with, however that is across the span of our lives. Maybe we don't see it, maybe we will never even know it, but it all matters. When God's Grace happens, and good things are bestowed upon us, or someone else, we are supposed to recognize it and be grateful. When something bad happens, we are supposed to look at it, in it, around it, for something, anything that has meaning to our own individual existence here, and do what we can to help those that have been hurt.
If you can't fathom any of that with an open free thinking mind, without it being spelled out in every minute detail ad nauseum, then you need to go spend your own 40 years under a welding hood. Your existence here, and the life you are living, is not random, or irrelevant.
I also believe this Great Nation was founded with Divine Providence. How else could a rag tag bunch of farmers defeat the most powerful and well funded military force on the planet, and go on to devise the best and most fair system of self governance ever thought up in the history of mankind. That was squarely the hand of God.
I am perfectly content with my beliefs.
This is the dumbest shiit I have ever heard! All that welding torched your brain! LOL!!!
Let me dumb it down for you…..try to follow closely….
No need, it's been as dumb as it gets for some time. All along in fact.
Originally Posted by TF49
Seems you are again in full retreat…. Can’t back up your allegations….unable to participate in any sort of rational discussion.
Sorry you missed the point, guess I couldn’t dumb it down enough for you to either understand or offer any sort of thoughtful reply.
Meh…
Bluff and bluster. It is you in retreat. I asked you to give a rational explanation for why the bible tells us that God creates evil, and you failed to address the question.
The reason is that you are incapable, so slagging off is your only means of defense.
Originally Posted by TF49
Simple question..
Of course. A simple mind like yours has a simple view of the world and asks simple questions
Originally Posted by TF49
We’re getting nothing but weasel words and avoidance for you.
You made the allegation, not me….. as usual, you cannot back up another of your empty headed charges.
But….go ahead and answer the question….what are you afraid of?
That's your bluff.
Why not show that you have some substance and deal with the question rationally without resorting to mindless blather?
Again; why does the bible tell us that God creates evil? Not only that, but creates the 'wicked for the day of evil....
Are you capable of addressing the issue? Or are you going to keep running away?
Anyone care to guess how many people were killed worldwide fighting wars spurred by religion in the last 2,000 years?
If nothing else, religion has been a roaring success at keeping the population in check.
A good example is the Ancient Israelites. Their book says they were instructed by God to kill every man, woman, child, infant, and even the livestock of particular regions or ethnic groups with the aim of completely destroying that group of people. They even committed mass genocide against other Jews. The Ancient Israelites made the Einsatzgruppen look like kindergartners.
If nothing else, religion has been a roaring success at keeping the population in check.
A good example is the Ancient Israelites. Their book says they were instructed by God to kill every man, woman, child, infant, and even the livestock of particular regions or ethnic groups with the aim of completely destroying that group of people. They even committed mass genocide against other Jews. The Ancient Israelites made the Einsatzgruppen look like kindergartners.
From RCSproulJr.....
A basic knowledge of Canaanite culture reveals its inherent moral wickedness. The Canaanites were a brutal, aggressive people who engaged in bestiality, incest, and even child sacrifice. Deviant sexual acts were the norm. The Canaanites’ sin was so repellent that God said, “The land vomited out its inhabitants” (Leviticus 18:25). Even so, the destruction was directed more at the Canaanite religion (Deuteronomy 7:3–5,12:2-3) than at the Canaanite people per se. The judgment was not ethnically motivated. Individual Canaanites, like Rahab in Jericho, could still find that mercy follows repentance (Joshua 2). God’s desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than die (Ezekiel 18:31-32, 33:11).
Besides dealing with national sins, God used the conquest of Canaan to create a religious/historical context in which He could eventually introduce the Messiah to the world. This Messiah would bring salvation not only to Israel, but also to Israel’s enemies, including Canaan (Psalm 87:4-6; Mark 7:25–30).
It must be remembered that God gave the Canaanite people more than sufficient time to repent of their evil ways—over 400 years (Genesis 15:13–16)! The book of Hebrews tells us that the Canaanites were “disobedient,” which implies moral culpability on their part (Hebrews 11:31). The Canaanites were aware of God’s power (Joshua 2:10–11; 9:9) and could have sought repentance. Except in rare instances, they continued their rebellion against God until the bitter end.
But didn’t God also command the Israelites to kill non-combatants? The biblical record is clear that He did. Here again, we must remember that, while it is true the Canaanite women did not fight, this in no way means they were innocent, as their seductive behavior in Numbers 25 indicates (Numbers 25:1–3). However, the question still remains: what about the children? This is not an easy question to answer, but we must keep several things in mind. First, no human person (including infants) is truly innocent. The Scripture teaches that we are all born in sin (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). This implies that all people are morally culpable for Adam’s sin in some way. Infants are just as condemned from sin as adults are.
Second, God is sovereign over all of life and can take it whenever He sees fit. God and God alone can give life, and God alone has the right to take it whenever He so chooses. In fact, He ultimately takes every person’s life at death. It is not our life to begin with but God’s. While it is wrong for us to take a life, except in instances of capital punishment, war, and self-defense, this does not mean that it is wrong for God to do so. We intuitively recognize this when we accuse some person or authority who takes human life as “playing God.” God is under no obligation to extend anyone’s life for even another day. How and when we die is completely up to Him.
Third, an argument could be made that it would have been cruel for God to take the lives of all the Canaanites except the infants and children. Without the protection and support of their parents, the infants and small children were likely to face death anyway due to starvation. The chances of survival for an orphan in the ancient Near East were not good.
Finally, the children of Canaan would have likely grown up as followers of the same evil religions their parents had practiced. It was time for the culture of idolatry and perversion to end in Canaan, and God wanted to use Israel to end it. Also, the orphaned children of Canaan would naturally have grown up resentful of the Israelites. Likely, some would have later sought to avenge the “unjust” treatment of their parents and return Canaan to paganism.
It’s also worth considering the eternal state of those infants killed in Canaan. If God took them before the age of moral accountability, then they went straight to heaven (as we believe). Those children are in a far better place than if they had lived into adulthood as Canaanites.
Surely, the issue of God commanding violence in the Old Testament is difficult. However, we must remember that God sees things from an eternal perspective, and His ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8–9). The apostle Paul tells us that God is both kind and severe (Romans 11:22). While it is true that God’s holy character demands that sin be punished, His grace and mercy remain extended to those who are willing to repent and be saved. The Canaanite destruction provides us with a sober reminder that, while our God is gracious and merciful, He is also a God of holiness and wrath.
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
I've already called out the word game you are playing and why it doesn't prove what you think it proves.
The universe exists.
We do not know how it came to exist.
That does not mean "god did it".
So, you make assumptions of what I said in the discussions... then argue against a point I never made regarding these two HOW/KNOW postings. What kind of conflating... or ...straw man or red herring is that?
You use the same word twisting you castigate others for.....
Since you have brought God into the discussion, let's run with that for a bit....ok
You did say that the universe does indeed exist and further state that "That does not mean 'god did it'."
BUT, the current view of the "astrophysicists" of today all seem to believe that the universe had a "sudden" and dramatic beginning. Big Bang or "everything everywhere all at once" is what I read being talked about. Some how SOMETHING happened and the Universe just came into being....Right? (And don't give me that Magic Larry nonsense about the "Universe from Nothing." He's been proven to be a degenerate a fraud and just a self serving book seller.)
So, SOMTHING happened and the UNIVERSE is just suddenly HERE. Of course, there those that would say, "Well we don't HOW the universe began, but we KNOW that it did." It did indeed come into existence... but HOW is indeed an intriguing question.
Now... let me state as I understand YOUR meaning ..... You said.. paraphrased.... .."If there is evidence that something has been MADE, that implies the involvement of a sentient being."
So, let me ask all who are reading this post..... Do you see in the world around you..... the landscapes, oceans, deserts, plants, animals and of course ...us humans.....Do you see evidence that this world and this universe has been MADE?
Many have posted on this thread that they sense a "sentient being" when they behold nature, the stars and the world. I agree.
So there are really two logical choices when one regards the origin of all we see in this world today.... A or B
A - "Everything we see came from Nothing and we literally have no idea of how or why."
B - A great and almighty powerful "sentient being" MADE the Universe and this World and US.
I ,as do many of you..... vote "B"
You're wrong about the current understand of The Big Bang and it's implication for the early universe:
Nope, not off target at all…. The real issue, the one you try to avoid is not what I propose about the origin of the universe…..this video is just your attempt to divert …..and hide.
Did this narrator list not one but at least a half a dozen ill defined theories about possible alternatives or variations to the big bang….or what ever happened at the beginning? Yes he did….
Did the narrator offer a single most viable theory to the origin of the universe? No, he did not.
You are resorting to 13 minutes of bafflegab in a weak attempt to avoid the real issue.
The real issue is not about which theory is most current or even accurate…
You remind me those twerps that “abstain” or even “flee” when the time to vote…..or act comes upon us.
“A” or “B”……. Or perhaps “F”….for fear of being exposed.
I will mark you down as “abstaining for lack of conviction.”
TF,
I appreciate you investing the time to watch the video.
Yes, it really is a lot to wrap one's mind around, that the singularity resulting from General Relativity is just a break down it the math and not necessarily the beginning of space/time, and quantum theory suggests it is not. As the vacuum state approached zero it becomes unstable. I guess nature really does abhor a vacuum.
You asked about the universe being created from nothing, but what there really ever a true "nothing"? Our current best understand of physics tends to indicate other wise, which changes the whole question to "Why is there something rather than nothing". The honest answer remains "We don't know". We're researching, we're leaning, we have some idea's, but as of today, we don't know.
Without getting into quoting the Bible, like so many others.... I do have one simple question tho...
Why do so many atheists, while not believing in a God, still believe there is a SATAN?
I've ran across many of them, who think that way.
Why can so many people NOT believe in GOOD, but have NO problem believing in EVIL?
Seafire,
I wouldn't consider such a belief consistent with atheism. They still believe in a god, just an evil god. Many of the gods of old where not pleasant characters yet the believers were not considered atheist.
I wish I had more wisdom as to be able to join this discourse. I can easily see that those that use personal attacks and abuse really have nothing but their feelings and raw emotion. I also ponder if there is a God who created the entire universe and all things in it, and who was active moment by moment in all things, in all peoples lives, just how insignificant my thoughts and conclusions would be in the face of a being so mighty, that we are below gnats to men in our understanding of it all. If such a being existed his definition of good and what he wanted might be in conflict with our definition of good. Perhaps his creation of life, might be that in his immortal existence he wishes for life to become immortal with him, and this worldly existence is not the end. Some feel they have seen the supernatural, while others only see only coincidence. Perhaps there is a reason for this. We all are like the little boy with a bucket who said he was going to scoop up and pour the ocean into a hole he had dug on the beach, we don't even know what we don't know, we only think we know.
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
I've already called out the word game you are playing and why it doesn't prove what you think it proves.
The universe exists.
We do not know how it came to exist.
That does not mean "god did it".
So, you make assumptions of what I said in the discussions... then argue against a point I never made regarding these two HOW/KNOW postings. What kind of conflating... or ...straw man or red herring is that?
You use the same word twisting you castigate others for.....
Since you have brought God into the discussion, let's run with that for a bit....ok
You did say that the universe does indeed exist and further state that "That does not mean 'god did it'."
BUT, the current view of the "astrophysicists" of today all seem to believe that the universe had a "sudden" and dramatic beginning. Big Bang or "everything everywhere all at once" is what I read being talked about. Some how SOMETHING happened and the Universe just came into being....Right? (And don't give me that Magic Larry nonsense about the "Universe from Nothing." He's been proven to be a degenerate a fraud and just a self serving book seller.)
So, SOMTHING happened and the UNIVERSE is just suddenly HERE. Of course, there those that would say, "Well we don't HOW the universe began, but we KNOW that it did." It did indeed come into existence... but HOW is indeed an intriguing question.
Now... let me state as I understand YOUR meaning ..... You said.. paraphrased.... .."If there is evidence that something has been MADE, that implies the involvement of a sentient being."
So, let me ask all who are reading this post..... Do you see in the world around you..... the landscapes, oceans, deserts, plants, animals and of course ...us humans.....Do you see evidence that this world and this universe has been MADE?
Many have posted on this thread that they sense a "sentient being" when they behold nature, the stars and the world. I agree.
So there are really two logical choices when one regards the origin of all we see in this world today.... A or B
A - "Everything we see came from Nothing and we literally have no idea of how or why."
B - A great and almighty powerful "sentient being" MADE the Universe and this World and US.
I ,as do many of you..... vote "B"
You're wrong about the current understand of The Big Bang and it's implication for the early universe:
Nope, not off target at all…. The real issue, the one you try to avoid is not what I propose about the origin of the universe…..this video is just your attempt to divert …..and hide.
Did this narrator list not one but at least a half a dozen ill defined theories about possible alternatives or variations to the big bang….or what ever happened at the beginning? Yes he did….
Did the narrator offer a single most viable theory to the origin of the universe? No, he did not.
You are resorting to 13 minutes of bafflegab in a weak attempt to avoid the real issue.
The real issue is not about which theory is most current or even accurate…
You remind me those twerps that “abstain” or even “flee” when the time to vote…..or act comes upon us.
“A” or “B”……. Or perhaps “F”….for fear of being exposed.
I will mark you down as “abstaining for lack of conviction.”
TF,
I appreciate you investing the time to watch the video.
Yes, it really is a lot to wrap one's mind around, that the singularity resulting from General Relativity is just a break down it the math and not necessarily the beginning of space/time, and quantum theory suggests it is not. As the vacuum state approached zero it becomes unstable. I guess nature really does abhor a vacuum.
You asked about the universe being created from nothing, but what there really ever a true "nothing"? Our current best understand of physics tends to indicate other wise, which changes the whole question to "Why is there something rather than nothing". The honest answer remains "We don't know". We're researching, we're leaning, we have some idea's, but as of today, we don't know.
According to science,Simple "life" was created from acids and lightning, yet have never been able to recreate it.
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
I've already called out the word game you are playing and why it doesn't prove what you think it proves.
The universe exists.
We do not know how it came to exist.
That does not mean "god did it".
So, you make assumptions of what I said in the discussions... then argue against a point I never made regarding these two HOW/KNOW postings. What kind of conflating... or ...straw man or red herring is that?
You use the same word twisting you castigate others for.....
Since you have brought God into the discussion, let's run with that for a bit....ok
You did say that the universe does indeed exist and further state that "That does not mean 'god did it'."
BUT, the current view of the "astrophysicists" of today all seem to believe that the universe had a "sudden" and dramatic beginning. Big Bang or "everything everywhere all at once" is what I read being talked about. Some how SOMETHING happened and the Universe just came into being....Right? (And don't give me that Magic Larry nonsense about the "Universe from Nothing." He's been proven to be a degenerate a fraud and just a self serving book seller.)
So, SOMTHING happened and the UNIVERSE is just suddenly HERE. Of course, there those that would say, "Well we don't HOW the universe began, but we KNOW that it did." It did indeed come into existence... but HOW is indeed an intriguing question.
Now... let me state as I understand YOUR meaning ..... You said.. paraphrased.... .."If there is evidence that something has been MADE, that implies the involvement of a sentient being."
So, let me ask all who are reading this post..... Do you see in the world around you..... the landscapes, oceans, deserts, plants, animals and of course ...us humans.....Do you see evidence that this world and this universe has been MADE?
Many have posted on this thread that they sense a "sentient being" when they behold nature, the stars and the world. I agree.
So there are really two logical choices when one regards the origin of all we see in this world today.... A or B
A - "Everything we see came from Nothing and we literally have no idea of how or why."
B - A great and almighty powerful "sentient being" MADE the Universe and this World and US.
I ,as do many of you..... vote "B"
You're wrong about the current understand of The Big Bang and it's implication for the early universe:
Nope, not off target at all…. The real issue, the one you try to avoid is not what I propose about the origin of the universe…..this video is just your attempt to divert …..and hide.
Did this narrator list not one but at least a half a dozen ill defined theories about possible alternatives or variations to the big bang….or what ever happened at the beginning? Yes he did….
Did the narrator offer a single most viable theory to the origin of the universe? No, he did not.
You are resorting to 13 minutes of bafflegab in a weak attempt to avoid the real issue.
The real issue is not about which theory is most current or even accurate…
You remind me those twerps that “abstain” or even “flee” when the time to vote…..or act comes upon us.
“A” or “B”……. Or perhaps “F”….for fear of being exposed.
I will mark you down as “abstaining for lack of conviction.”
TF,
I appreciate you investing the time to watch the video.
Yes, it really is a lot to wrap one's mind around, that the singularity resulting from General Relativity is just a break down it the math and not necessarily the beginning of space/time, and quantum theory suggests it is not. As the vacuum state approached zero it becomes unstable. I guess nature really does abhor a vacuum.
You asked about the universe being created from nothing, but what there really ever a true "nothing"? Our current best understand of physics tends to indicate other wise, which changes the whole question to "Why is there something rather than nothing". The honest answer remains "We don't know". We're researching, we're leaning, we have some idea's, but as of today, we don't know.
According to science,Simple "life" was created from acids and lightning, yet have never been able to recreate it.
AS: You and I agree when you say "we don't know". There is a heck of a bunch more that "we don't know" than what we do know. We don't have the straight story on a lot of things that happened even in the last 200 years. It is pretty arrogant to claim authority over the truth because of a very sketchy much edited and forged record dating back centuries or millennia.
And don't you dare say that some of the record bears all evidence of forgery or of being added in to support control by the state/church alliance.
We absolutely have literate people that today believe in a young earth and a worldwide flood that left no land exposed.
AS: You and I agree when you say "we don't know". There is a heck of a bunch more that "we don't know" than what we do know. We don't have the straight story on a lot of things that happened even in the last 200 years. It is pretty arrogant to claim authority over the truth because of a very sketchy much edited and forged record dating back centuries or millennia.
And don't you dare say that some of the record bears all evidence of forgery or of being added in to support control by the state/church alliance.
We absolutely have literate people that today believe in a young earth and a worldwide flood that left no land exposed.
Did I say something that triggered you? It wasn't my intent.
Yes, we have good evidence that 6 of the books attributed to Paul were written by the same author, 3 were not, and the other 4 are of questionable authorship. The 4 gospels of the NT were written by anonymous authors and the names Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John where added 100 some odd years later. These are just well established facts.
As for literate people believing silly stuff, well, yea, there's plenty of that to go around. Go check out the Q thread.
It is clear that some of those who post in threads like this are very well read/learned on these matters and have studied/thought deeply. Whether they are Christians willing to share their reasoning and experiences or non-Christians who do not embrace the Christian beliefs and faith in God (or those folks who sit somewhere between), they use their rational base for sensible discussion that evolves from the main topic of the thread. Others come in and ask sincere and genuinely helpful questions. I admire and support all of the above behavior.
You may have noticed that I do not post Scripture (as evidence or otherwise) nor preach what others should do with regard to their religious beliefs and convictions. Although quite open to interaction and discussion with sincere and questioning non-Christians, and although I sometimes and even frequently do so when opportunity arises, these threads are not very suitable for that part of my life. But - again - I fully support the interactions here as described in the initial paragraph.
Others insert themselves here for reasons that do not fit with the behavior of the sincere. Eventually they stoop to derision, name-calling, ad hom attacks, etc.. When I see such behavior, I tend to call it out, describe it, and address it according to its negative/divisive/destructive nature. Sometimes I do so with vigor and persistence. My human weakness sometimes enables me to enjoy the expository writing exercise. Thus came that post citing moths to the flame, flies to the sticky paper, etc.. I asked those types to openly state the reasons for their actions - but think I heard crickets.
Some very good people do not like forthright confrontational actions like those, and that may not fit with their personal definition of Christian behavior. I didn't write the definition, have no wish to influence how others define it, and so act because taking up the sword sometimes seems the very best thing to do. If any here interpret the confrontation of hypocrisy, insincerity and nastiness as poor behavior on my part, that is understandable. All is well.
You seem to be willing to comment on others opinions yet here you are... starting topics and making statements that you refuse to acknowledge nor defend.
You made previous comments about hypocrisy and here you are..the kettle, calling the pot black. Whew!
So, first, the question that DBT runs away from.... simple, but both you and DBT avoid it.....
#1 "Must we know HOW something is made to know THAT it exists?"
I also tried to make it easier on the two of you... I restated: "...if one sees, holds a nd something... does one need to know HOW it came into existences to KNOW it exists?
This is ludicrously simple yet you two avoid it..... why?
You also objected to a previous wording of this question and implied that "conflation" paid a visit and the word "made" implied "being made by a sentient being". OK, that is a good comment, so I ask simply if there is evidence that something has been "made"... does that .... logically infer that a "sentient being was involved.
Again, very simple.... YOU brought this "sentient being" aspect up, not me.
I've already called out the word game you are playing and why it doesn't prove what you think it proves.
The universe exists.
We do not know how it came to exist.
That does not mean "god did it".
So, you make assumptions of what I said in the discussions... then argue against a point I never made regarding these two HOW/KNOW postings. What kind of conflating... or ...straw man or red herring is that?
You use the same word twisting you castigate others for.....
Since you have brought God into the discussion, let's run with that for a bit....ok
You did say that the universe does indeed exist and further state that "That does not mean 'god did it'."
BUT, the current view of the "astrophysicists" of today all seem to believe that the universe had a "sudden" and dramatic beginning. Big Bang or "everything everywhere all at once" is what I read being talked about. Some how SOMETHING happened and the Universe just came into being....Right? (And don't give me that Magic Larry nonsense about the "Universe from Nothing." He's been proven to be a degenerate a fraud and just a self serving book seller.)
So, SOMTHING happened and the UNIVERSE is just suddenly HERE. Of course, there those that would say, "Well we don't HOW the universe began, but we KNOW that it did." It did indeed come into existence... but HOW is indeed an intriguing question.
Now... let me state as I understand YOUR meaning ..... You said.. paraphrased.... .."If there is evidence that something has been MADE, that implies the involvement of a sentient being."
So, let me ask all who are reading this post..... Do you see in the world around you..... the landscapes, oceans, deserts, plants, animals and of course ...us humans.....Do you see evidence that this world and this universe has been MADE?
Many have posted on this thread that they sense a "sentient being" when they behold nature, the stars and the world. I agree.
So there are really two logical choices when one regards the origin of all we see in this world today.... A or B
A - "Everything we see came from Nothing and we literally have no idea of how or why."
B - A great and almighty powerful "sentient being" MADE the Universe and this World and US.
I ,as do many of you..... vote "B"
You're wrong about the current understand of The Big Bang and it's implication for the early universe:
Nope, not off target at all…. The real issue, the one you try to avoid is not what I propose about the origin of the universe…..this video is just your attempt to divert …..and hide.
Did this narrator list not one but at least a half a dozen ill defined theories about possible alternatives or variations to the big bang….or what ever happened at the beginning? Yes he did….
Did the narrator offer a single most viable theory to the origin of the universe? No, he did not.
You are resorting to 13 minutes of bafflegab in a weak attempt to avoid the real issue.
The real issue is not about which theory is most current or even accurate…
You remind me those twerps that “abstain” or even “flee” when the time to vote…..or act comes upon us.
“A” or “B”……. Or perhaps “F”….for fear of being exposed.
I will mark you down as “abstaining for lack of conviction.”
TF,
I appreciate you investing the time to watch the video.
Yes, it really is a lot to wrap one's mind around, that the singularity resulting from General Relativity is just a break down it the math and not necessarily the beginning of space/time, and quantum theory suggests it is not. As the vacuum state approached zero it becomes unstable. I guess nature really does abhor a vacuum.
You asked about the universe being created from nothing, but what there really ever a true "nothing"? Our current best understand of physics tends to indicate other wise, which changes the whole question to "Why is there something rather than nothing". The honest answer remains "We don't know". We're researching, we're leaning, we have some idea's, but as of today, we don't know.
According to science,Simple "life" was created from acids and lightning, yet have never been able to recreate it.
It's a little more complex then that.
Yah, no its not. Scientist beleive in the big bang theory and that life was created in a pool of acid with a little help from electricity, both are impossible to recreate and even more impossible to explain.
In a thread like this one where the original question posed is so simple, yet so deep, often the discussion becomes so personal and invasive that tempers flare and the discussion falters as a result. This hasn't really changed much in the 20+ years of this site and I suspect that will not change again any time soon. As this site goes, this discussion has been relatively acceptable and has made some very good points- and a few questionable ones...
There are so many ways to approach this subject and as some have also discussed the subject , my historical knowledge of the Bible and the antiquities of the formation of it, the gospels, and other matters surrounding my faith are not what they should be, but I am not ashamed or embarrassed about that fact. My faith and belief are enough for me and I fill in my ignorance when I can or when subjects like this one come up. I do appreciate the background so many here share with us - part of what I consider my additive education on faith, religion, and just basic history IMO.. I'm not quite as ignorant as that statement may imply, however I don't possess the willingness to discuss my deeply personal religion in this manner most of the time.
It is a shame this discussion comes up on this type of forum since it is difficult to discuss these type of personal subjects in long form due to the nature of these type of conversations and the snippet type of posts required to move these discussions along. There is so much to be said- the discussion of the nature of evil vs. good, how God is viewed by so many in so many different ways and cultures and why, why God would allow pain and suffering when he has the power to make the world basically perfect if He so chooses, and so many questions. As humans we struggle with our spirits, our relationships, our thoughts of life and death- and yet the struggle is why we are who we are. IMO this is as God intended as well as all the other esoteric evidence we struggle with such as the origins of the Universe and every other thing we wonder about- the equivalent of a child asking "why is the sky blue" is how our lives develop , but the questions get deeper and deeper as we develop the capacity to look deeper. All part of God's plan in so many ways...
I'm not just a copy cat believer in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit like so many so-called christians. I've had PLENTY of time under a welding hood to ponder things over the last 40 years it wire, including this subject.
I believe in spiritual destiny. That being everyone of us is here for a reason and on the exact path we are supposed to follow. The good, the bad, the indifferent, and the downright evil m'effers. Everything, and everyone is interconnected and what we do with our lives matters to those we come in contact with, however that is across the span of our lives. Maybe we don't see it, maybe we will never even know it, but it all matters. When God's Grace happens, and good things are bestowed upon us, or someone else, we are supposed to recognize it and be grateful. When something bad happens, we are supposed to look at it, in it, around it, for something, anything that has meaning to our own individual existence here, and do what we can to help those that have been hurt.
If you can't fathom any of that with an open free thinking mind, without it being spelled out in every minute detail ad nauseum, then you need to go spend your own 40 years under a welding hood. Your existence here, and the life you are living, is not random, or irrelevant.
I also believe this Great Nation was founded with Divine Providence. How else could a rag tag bunch of farmers defeat the most powerful and well funded military force on the planet, and go on to devise the best and most fair system of self governance ever thought up in the history of mankind. That was squarely the hand of God.
I am perfectly content with my beliefs.
This is the dumbest shiit I have ever heard! All that welding torched your brain! LOL!!!
What's your purpose here on this thread?
Do you honestly think that mocking and berating will change someone's beliefs to be something more acceptable to you?
Do you really think that because YOU, a random irrelevant nobody on the internet, thinks something is the dumbest shiit you've ever heard, it will cause someone to abandon God and take your path?
No, all you're doing here is providing the means for those who believe to further solidiy their beliefs and see yet another of Satan's minions doing Satan's work.
All problems are solvable with the proper application of enough explosives. Old demolition school axiom.
Today dropping a couple dozen heavier than air Fuel Air Mixture 600 gallons bombs down the middle of Gaza, wait one minute, then drop an aluminum powder detonator, would put the entire Gaza outhouse into low orbit, bunkers, tunnels buildings and all. Secondaries would be enough to kill the remaining rats.
When the impotent US politicians figure out that extermination is way cheaper in treasure and blood than fooling with these morons most of this crap will come to an end.
All problems are solvable with the proper application of enough explosives. Old demolition school axiom.
Today dropping a couple dozen heavier than air Fuel Air Mixture 600 gallons bombs down the middle of Gaza, wait one minute, then drop an aluminum powder detonator, would put the entire Gaza outhouse into low orbit, bunkers, tunnels buildings and all. Secondaries would be enough to kill the remaining rats.
When the impotent US politicians figure out that extermination is way cheaper in treasure and blood than fooling with these morons most of this crap will come to an end.
Not exactly sure what this has to do with a belief in God, but this solution might answer the question for a few bad actors.
Yah, no its not. Scientist beleive in the big bang theory and that life was created in a pool of acid with a little help from electricity, both are impossible to recreate and even more impossible to explain.
Life may be common throughout the universe wherever there are planets with ideal conditions...or life may be exceedingly rare, perhaps only one or two suitable planets per galaxy, or one in a thousand galaxies, each galaxy composed of billions of stars and countless planets, who knows.
It's a matter the sheer number of planets within an incomprehensibly vast universe. Stars and planets are not created, they form from clouds of hydrogen and other elements.
“In the beginning, God…”. Moses is writing to an ancient group of people who all they know is slavery, all they know is the power of the Egyptian gods ~ a pantheon of gods.
In Genesis, Moses is not trying to explain how God created the universe. Moses is making the point that God created the universe, not the gods, just Yahweh. But some folks get all confused and focused on the timing and the sequencing of the creation account. And they miss the significance.
People are NOT born a slave to their DNA. People DO have free will. There IS a redeemer, and there IS an afterlife. But in the very beginning, we are introduced to a God who gives people freedom to choose, and then honors their choices.
If I was ever forced into picking some sort of imaginary friend belief system, Buddhism would get my vote. Of the dozens I've studied, it seems like the least likely to incite it's followers into causing harm to others who did or said something I don't agree with.
While I certainly don't appreciate a neighbor coveting my ass, it's not at all something that should be categorized as deadly.
The vast majority of imaginary friend belief systems aren't fit to be allowed into civilized society. Islam being the most widespread but not the worst (if you can believe that). There are tribes in south america who believe you can't marry from your own tribe but have to abduct a wife from a neighboring tribe. Understandably, they have to fend off raids led by pissed off family members from other tribes pretty regularly. Oddly enough, they don't think them abducting women has anything to do with it. Being how their imaginary friend told them it was the right thing to do and all.
“In the beginning, God…”. Moses is writing to an ancient group of people who all they know is slavery, all they know is the power of the Egyptian gods ~ a pantheon of gods.
In Genesis, Moses is not trying to explain how God created the universe. Moses is making the point that God created the universe, not the gods, just Yahweh. But some folks get all confused and focused on the timing and the sequencing of the creation account. And they miss the significance.
People are NOT born a slave to their DNA. People DO have free will. There IS a redeemer, and there IS an afterlife. But in the very beginning, we are introduced to a God who gives people freedom to choose, and then honors their choices.
Antler's, you might consider puting "Moses" in quotes. Since the 1970's scholars have accepted he's a fictional character, and the archeology doesn't support the out of Egypt hypothesis.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” That mantra has been repeated over and over and over and over again by those who have a problem with others being believers in the existence of a Creator of the universe.
But for them to say that the universe can come into existence without a creative cause is an extraordinary claim. And none of those who make this claim have extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary claim.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” That mantra has been repeated over and over and over and over again by those who have a problem with others being believers in the existence of a Creator of the universe.
But for them to say that the universe can come into existence without a creative cause is an extraordinary claim. And none of those who make this claim have extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary claim.
So, what evidence do they use to prove the "extraordinary" nature of matter?
Even atheists of today are admitting that space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing. If space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing ~ then whatever created space, time, and matter can’t be made out of space, time, and matter.
When one ponders a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal, intelligent cause, what does one think of…?
GOD.
One doesn’t know if it’s the Christian God at this point, but it’s a theistic God. A being who’s beyond the universe, who created the universe.
Even atheists of today are admitting that space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing. If space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing ~ then whatever created space, time, and matter can’t be made out of space, time, and matter.
When one ponders a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal, intelligent cause, what does one think of…?
GOD.
One doesn’t know if it’s the Christian God at this point, but it’s a theistic God. A being who’s beyond the universe, who created the universe.
Total rubbish. Seems faith leads to attempted justification via a stream of bullshit.
With Easter fast approaching it's almost time again to bring out the Jesus Shovel and clear the path for the Easter Bunny.
If Jesus really rose from the dead, it’d be expected to have a pretty big ripple effect. As history is examined, there’s three options regarding this matter: 1) He’s a mythological character who never lived or died or rose. 2) He’s an ancient Jewish sage who was crucified and never rose from the dead. 3) He was a real person who claimed divinity and performed miracles and was crucified and rose from the dead.
Given how history turned out, which one makes better sense…? No one’s been written about more than Jesus. No one’s been painted or sung about more than Jesus. No schools have been founded on the basic principles of a worldview more than on the worldview established by Jesus.
Which of these versions of Jesus…based on how history turned out…makes the most sense…? The myth, the regular guy who died, or the real risen Savior who really was who He said He was and the Gospels actually record the truth…?
How does Christianity exist under the circumstances in which it was born unless Jesus really did rise from the dead…? Just the historical impact of this one person…the ripple effect…is pretty astounding. His followers must have encountered something much bigger than just His great teachings.
Even atheists of today are admitting that space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing. If space, time, and matter had a beginning out of nothing ~ then whatever created space, time, and matter can’t be made out of space, time, and matter.
When one ponders a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal, intelligent cause, what does one think of…?
GOD.
One doesn’t know if it’s the Christian God at this point, but it’s a theistic God. A being who’s beyond the universe, who created the universe.
Define "Nothing".
Overall your version of big-bang cosmology's about 30 years behind the current science. I already covered this with TF49.
And "I don't know therefore GOD" is not an extraordinary claim? Come on Antlers, you're better than that.
This Country has turned dark whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Every person, no matter how messed up their thinking is, understands the basic concept of right and wrong, a lot of things happening these days are morally, spiritually, mentally, and physically wrong.
The worst part is that our children are being attacked and too many people just accept it.
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
"I don't know therefore NO GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore NO GOD." "It's so wondrous therefore NO GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore NO GOD."
How ever you want to paraphrase it, the above are all WORSE arguments.
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
"I don't know therefore NO GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore NO GOD." "It's so wondrous therefore NO GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore NO GOD."
How ever you want to paraphrase it, the above are all WORSE arguments.
The fact remains that it is evidence that justifies a conviction of truth, and as we have zero evidence for the existence of any of the countless versions of God and gods that people have believed in and worshipped, there is no reason to be convinced that any of them exist.
Which is where faith and its drivers, the promise of eternal life, desire for meaning, fear of annihilation, etc, comes into play.
And again, what is written in old scrolls about God or gods is not evidence for their existence.
Faith, despite your protests, is a belief held without the support of evidence.
Why don't you have a discussion about the fact that sure evidence for one individual may not serve as any evidence for another, and the forever subjectivity of that matter. It might illuminate the futility of these puerile yakking matches.
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
"I don't know therefore NO GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore NO GOD." "It's so wondrous therefore NO GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore NO GOD."
How ever you want to paraphrase it, the above are all WORSE arguments.
I made no such argument, no would I say such as argument disproves a god(s), merely that such arguments are not good arguments for a god(s).
I position here always has been, and remains " I see no good evidence for the existence of a god(s)."
Yes, our universe if vast and wonderous. It experiences a period of rapid inflation a bit over 13 billion years ago. That does not mean the expansion started from a true "nothing", nor does it mean it was done by a old white haired due in a toga living outside space/time.
Yes, Science doesn't have all the answers, but we're working on real answers and not relying on bronze age fairytales.
"I don't know therefore NO GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore NO GOD." "It's so wondrous therefore NO GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore NO GOD."
How ever you want to paraphrase it, the above are all WORSE arguments.
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
"I don't know therefore NO GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore NO GOD." "It's so wondrous therefore NO GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore NO GOD."
How ever you want to paraphrase it, the above are all WORSE arguments.
I see no good evidence for the existence of a god(s).
Others do. Actually, BILLIONS of others do. In Creation itself.
Sure, and once upon a time people believed the sun and moon revolved around the Earth and that heavy and light objects fell at different rates. the Argumentum ad populum in not convincing, just like the fallacies I demonstrated above.
Sure, and once upon a time people believed the sun and moon revolved around the Earth and that heavy and light objects fell at different rates.
But we are not living in those times. We know MUCH more now than people did then. There is now good evidence that space, time, and matter had a beginning. And to assert that it all came from nothing…cosmological nothing being defined as the absence of space, time, and matter, and the laws of physics…without a creative cause, is an extraordinary claim.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
The Argumentum ad populum is not convincing,…
Bein’ on the bandwagon…in and of itself…is often not convincing. But could you denying the evidence that BILLIONS of other people see likely point out a clear bias that you have simply because you don’t want there to be a God…?
Sure, and once upon a time people believed the sun and moon revolved around the Earth and that heavy and light objects fell at different rates.
But we are not living in those times. We know MUCH more now than people did then. There is now good evidence that space, time, and matter had a beginning. And to assert that it all came from nothing…cosmological nothing being defined as the absence of space, time, and matter, and the laws of physics…without a creative cause, is an extraordinary claim.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
The Argumentum ad populum is not convincing,…
Bein’ on the bandwagon…in and of itself…is often not convincing. But could denying the evidence that BILLIONS of other people see likely point out a clear bias that you have simply because you don’t want there to be a God…?
My wants are irrelevant. When I first began this exercise, it was to provide irrefutable proof for the existence of the Christian God. That's not what I found.
You should convert to Shintoism. The Japanese people are smarter than Americans, and they are Shinto, not Christian. Are you going to deny the evidence of their beliefs simply because you want to believe in your God?
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
All science pivots on the big bang, Which is far harder to believe than a divine creator. You do not need religion to understand God.
No, your wants are clearly not irrelevant. You wouldn’t be the first atheist/agnostic to not want there to be a God.
“It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, ‘hope’ that I’m right in my belief. I don’t ‘want’ there to be a God; I don’t ‘want’ the universe to be like that.” - Thomas Nagel, professor at New York University who teaches philosophy and law, and he’s an atheist. And as an atheist he makes an extraordinary confession...he clearly didn’t just come to the conclusion based on the data...he said: “I ‘want’ atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers.”
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
When I first began this exercise, it was to provide irrefutable proof for the existence of the Christian God. That's not what I found.
Blaise Pascal said, “People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.” And then they go looking for reasons to substantiate their belief. Could it be that this applies to your findings regarding the existence of the Christian God...?
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
All science pivots on the big bang, Which is far harder to believe than a divine creator. You do not need religion to understand God.
Science doesn't ask you to believe anything. Observation and acquired information leads to explanations, a theory or hypothesis for what has been observed, cosmic background radiation, galaxies moving apart (unless gravitationally locked), etc.
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
All science pivots on the big bang, Which is far harder to believe than a divine creator. You do not need religion to understand God.
That really depends on one's capacity to comprehend the evidence for the Big Bang. Just because it's simpler to believe in magical being does not make it the correct answer.
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
All science pivots on the big bang, Which is far harder to believe than a divine creator. You do not need religion to understand God.
Science doesn't ask you to believe anything. Observation and acquired information leads to explanations, a theory or hypothesis for what has been observed, cosmic background radiation, galaxies moving apart (unless gravitationally locked), etc.
science asks you to believe the big bang theory, a baseless, impossible to prove and a way out there idea. Im not po-po'ing all science, just where they start. Also evolution is only made possible with huge lapses and there is zero proof that man and frogs were once relatives.
I see no good evidence for the existence of a god(s).
Others do. Actually, BILLIONS of others do. In Creation itself.
They say they do. Just invoking the word 'evidence' doesn't make it so.
The existence of the universe is evidence that a universe exists, not how it came about, whether it's cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something not yet imagined.
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
There is an important and reason for this. It’s pretty obvious once you think about it. What makes a God is belief. Without belief God dies. God seems very real to those that believe, but without that belief there is no God. A figment of our imagination that disappears the moment the belief goes away.
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
All science pivots on the big bang, Which is far harder to believe than a divine creator. You do not need religion to understand God.
Science doesn't ask you to believe anything. Observation and acquired information leads to explanations, a theory or hypothesis for what has been observed, cosmic background radiation, galaxies moving apart (unless gravitationally locked), etc.
science asks you to believe the big bang theory, a baseless, impossible to prove and a way out there idea. Im not po-po'ing all science, just where they start. Also evolution is only made possible with huge lapses and there is zero proof that man and frogs were once relatives.
You are not asked to believe anything, background microwave radiation is there, as is doppler red shift, etc. You disregard the evidence in favour of a preferred belief.
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator.
Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you.
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
All science pivots on the big bang, Which is far harder to believe than a divine creator. You do not need religion to understand God.
Science doesn't ask you to believe anything. Observation and acquired information leads to explanations, a theory or hypothesis for what has been observed, cosmic background radiation, galaxies moving apart (unless gravitationally locked), etc.
science asks you to believe the big bang theory, a baseless, impossible to prove and a way out there idea. Im not po-po'ing all science, just where they start. Also evolution is only made possible with huge lapses and there is zero proof that man and frogs were once relatives.
You’ve got some really big gaps in your knowledge.
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator.
Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you.
To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler.
Why don't you have a discussion about the fact that sure evidence for one individual may not serve as any evidence for another, and the forever subjectivity of that matter. It might illuminate the futility of these puerile yakking matches.
Evidence supports a claim that all can agree concurs with reality - it's not subjective. Belief in a god has no evidence and is divorced from reality, and is entirely subjective - thousands of Christian denominations are evidence of this fact and reality. Here endeth this lesson.
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator.
Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you.
To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler.
How many of you have "seen" co2? You believe it is real, you believe that plants need it, You believe that it causes "global warming". So here we have a man telling us that something invisible is real, Is this guy a scientist or a Pastor?
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
There is an important and reason for this. It’s pretty obvious once you think about it. What makes a God is belief. Without belief God dies. God seems very real to those that believe, but without that belief there is no God. A figment of our imagination that disappears the moment the belief goes away.
Wow a real dummy post on Good Friday. Lotsa grist for the mill here.
Ther is no doubt that there is-was a creator. There is no way to explain thoughts, consciences, feelings etc. Who, what the creator is, dont know, call it God if you want. Religion is what we use to reconcile with our thoughts, conscience, etc.
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator.
Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you.
To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler.
Your first sentence there is merely an interpretation of the term "belief". That interpretation does not apply universally. Individual people believe, and their definitions of belief vary.
Why don't you have a discussion about the fact that sure evidence for one individual may not serve as any evidence for another, and the forever subjectivity of that matter. It might illuminate the futility of these puerile yakking matches.
Evidence supports a claim that all can agree concurs with reality - it's not subjective. Belief in a god has no evidence and is divorced from reality, and is entirely subjective - thousands of Christian denominations are evidence of this fact and reality. Here endeth this lesson.
Your first statement there is quite faulty. Your use of "all" is a gross assumption based on zero evidence of that factor. What is evidence to you may not be evidence to another, etc.. Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree.
Further, there need not be any such "claim" in order for one to experience evidence. Claims seem to be the action of those who wish to prove some point of view or secure a corner on some claimed reality. Objectivity is not created by such claims, or by your sentence.
The evidence shows: that a tiny band of followers of a rabbi who was crucified survived BOTH the Jewish Temple AND the mighty Roman Empire, BOTH of whom were intent on stamping them out. Not only did this new movement survive, but it thrived. It spread like an airborne disease, in an environment that was tremendously hostile to it. Something extraordinary happened to drive all of that.
The evidence shows: that the once cowardly followers of Jesus stood up to the VERY people in the Jewish Temple that had Him crucified. And despite being beaten to within an inch of their lives many times, and being tortured in other ways and eventually killed, they ALL went to their graves still professing the extraordinary event that they’d seen with their own eyes which motivated them.
The evidence shows: that from a few followers in ancient Judea when Christianity began, by the year 100 AD it had grown to over 10,000 Christians. And by the year 200 AD Christianity had grown to over 200,000 followers of Jesus. And then to almost 2 million by 250 AD, well before Constantine legalized Christianity in 313 AD. Even Bart Ehrman concedes that something extraordinary happened in the first century to drive all of this growth, especially against such overwhelming odds.
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator.
Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you.
To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler.
How many of you have "seen" co2? You believe it is real, you believe that plants need it, You believe that it causes "global warming". So here we have a man telling us that something invisible is real, Is this guy a scientist or a Pastor?
Um, Yeah I've seen CO2. It's called dry ice in its solid form and easily visible. If you Christers had paid attention in 9th grade science class you wouldn't be saying such silly things.
I believe that, I just have an issue with folks that tell me what he really was and what he really meant. Things he never claimed.
You ‘also’ have an issue with what Jesus Himself claimed, and when what Jesus Himself claimed doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda, you simply disregard it.
He clearly claimed, “I and the Father are one” in John’s Gospel, and His claim was not lost on the Jewish people who were there at the time, who responded, “You, a mere man, claim to be God”. In His teachings, Jesus consistently claimed and demonstrated authority over the Law of Moses.
Originally Posted by Hastings
That started as soon as he was gone.
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator.
Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you.
To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler.
How many of you have "seen" co2? You believe it is real, you believe that plants need it, You believe that it causes "global warming". So here we have a man telling us that something invisible is real, Is this guy a scientist or a Pastor?
You can't see CO either. Let's do an experiment, you go seal up your garage, start your vehicle while you're in it, stay in it with the vehicle running all night and report back to us tomorrow morning.
Since you can't see CO, and by your reasoning, that make it not real, you believe this is perfectly safe.
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
There is an important and reason for this. It’s pretty obvious once you think about it. What makes a God is belief. Without belief God dies. God seems very real to those that believe, but without that belief there is no God. A figment of our imagination that disappears the moment the belief goes away.
Wow a real dummy post on Good Friday. Lotsa grist for the mill here.
LOL, I posted that on Thursday. I'll let you in on a little secret. When one posts something on one day, it is also still there the next day. Just because you happened across it on a certain day doesn't mean it didn't exist before that day. The evidence (yeah, I know evidence is for non-believers) is that up in the upper right corner of the post is a date. That is the date it was posted. But you go ahead and believe it was posted on Friday, because that is all that matters; what you believe.
Ther is no doubt that there is-was a creator. There is no way to explain thoughts, consciences, feelings etc. Who, what the creator is, dont know, call it God if you want. Religion is what we use to reconcile with our thoughts, conscience, etc.
There's plenty of doubt.
"I don't know there for god(s)" is not an explanation, it's a lazy cop out.
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator.
Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you.
To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler.
How many of you have "seen" co2? You believe it is real, you believe that plants need it, You believe that it causes "global warming". So here we have a man telling us that something invisible is real, Is this guy a scientist or a Pastor?
You can't see CO either. Let's do an experiment, you go seal up your garage, start your vehicle while you're in it, stay in it with the vehicle running all night and report back to us tomorrow morning.
Since you can't see CO, and by your reasoning, that make it not real, you believe this is perfectly safe.
Let us know how this works out for you.
When you do that, run your car in the garage while you are in it, God kills you. Hey, I think I understand this religion thing!
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator.
Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you.
To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler.
How many of you have "seen" co2? You believe it is real, you believe that plants need it, You believe that it causes "global warming". So here we have a man telling us that something invisible is real, Is this guy a scientist or a Pastor?
Something physical may be invisible to the naked eye, but it is detectable. We know what the properties of CO2 are because as a gas it is physical and detectable. As with argon, etc, we use it for many different applications, welding and so on.
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
All science pivots on the big bang, Which is far harder to believe than a divine creator. You do not need religion to understand God.
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes.
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Originally Posted by Hastings
Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes.
It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble.
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator.
Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you.
To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler.
How many of you have "seen" co2? You believe it is real, you believe that plants need it, You believe that it causes "global warming". So here we have a man telling us that something invisible is real, Is this guy a scientist or a Pastor?
Um, Yeah I've seen CO2. It's called dry ice in its solid form and easily visible. If you Christers had paid attention in 9th grade science class you wouldn't be saying such silly things.
If you paid attention you would have known that was actually water vapor.
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
All science pivots on the big bang, Which is far harder to believe than a divine creator. You do not need religion to understand God.
Ok, if you say so.
Ummm, Give me one real factoid proving the bigbang, Im listening. If you can give evidence of this big bang, I will change teams.
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Originally Posted by Hastings
Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes.
It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble.
It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army.
Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God.
I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary.
I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me".
The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean "I speak for my Father who sent me".
You choose to take it that way so it’ll jive with your already established beliefs and agenda.
The Apostle John also clearly said that Jesus was God.
Yes He did. Clearly. And His disciples “worshipped” Him because He was God. And they knew it.
It's complicated to me. Some verses make a distinction.
- “If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.” Jn. 14:28.
- “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.” Jn. 15:1-2.
- “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mt 24:36; see also Mk. 13:32.
Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 seem to suggest that Jesus (“the Son”) is distinct from God because even Jesus will not know of his own second coming ahead of time. If so, this seems to distinguish the Son and the Father as having different levels of knowledge and power.
Yes He did. Clearly. And His disciples “worshipped” Him because He was God. And they knew it.
Originally Posted by Hasting
Think about it.
YOU think about it. Honestly for a change.
I think and read about Jesus' ministry a lot. And about the early church led by the men Jesus publicly called. In my mind I argue against and examine my beliefs in an attempt to see if I'm down a wrong road. I will keep that up. Questioning and examining claims by the present day "Christian" mainstream churches is not a sin. Churches that are by the way, mostly the lineal descendants of the Roman church.
I think even you would agree the church completely ran off the rails when it partnered as the enforcement arm of the government. The Jesus that I read the teachings of could never support murder and coercion especially in support of an evil civil government. Back then the church would convict and then turn the "miscreants" over to the civil authorities to be burned alive as a warning to other dissidents. Pretty similar to what the church "leaders" of his day did to Jesus as a message to his followers that they could expect the same.
I'll keep studying and considering the other side that agues against what I've learned from my study so far but I can assure you I'm far from alone in my beliefs.
You may be entirely correct in your belief of the deity of Jesus and the end of the covenant but so far I think not.
God clearly separated the temporary and conditional and fulfilled and retired old covenant that He made with only the ancient Israelites…not to be confused with the everlasting and unconditional Abrahamic Covenant…from the unconditional and everlasting New Covenant that He made through Jesus with ALL of the people in ALL of the world.
Jesus made this crystal clear with His parables of the new wine in old wineskins and a new cloth patch on an old garment. They are incompatible. And this was made crystal clear well before “the church ran off the rails when it partnered with the enforcement arm of the government.”
But the Judaizers ‘still’ taught that a person had to become a Jew and abide by the Law of Moses in order to be a follower of Jesus. So Jesus’ “called” apostle Peter and His own brother James (who was the leader of the church in Jerusalem) unhitched the church from the worldview and value system and regulations of the Law of Moses. They did this at the First Council of Jerusalem, well before “the church ran off the rails when it partnered with the enforcement arm of the government.”
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator.
Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you.
To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler.
How many of you have "seen" co2? You believe it is real, you believe that plants need it, You believe that it causes "global warming". So here we have a man telling us that something invisible is real, Is this guy a scientist or a Pastor?
Um, Yeah I've seen CO2. It's called dry ice in its solid form and easily visible. If you Christers had paid attention in 9th grade science class you wouldn't be saying such silly things.
If you paid attention you would have known that was actually water vapor.
Dry ice = water vapor? Are you really this scientifically illiterate?
Did you try the experiment where you seal yourself in the garage and run your car engine all night to see if CO exists?
When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position.
"I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD."
How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments.
All science pivots on the big bang, Which is far harder to believe than a divine creator. You do not need religion to understand God.
Ok, if you say so.
Ummm, Give me one real factoid proving the bigbang, Im listening. If you can give evidence of this big bang, I will change teams.
Yes He did. Clearly. And His disciples “worshipped” Him because He was God. And they knew it.
It's complicated to me. Some verses make a distinction.
- “If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.” Jn. 14:28.
- “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.” Jn. 15:1-2.
- “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mt 24:36; see also Mk. 13:32.
Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 seem to suggest that Jesus (“the Son”) is distinct from God because even Jesus will not know of his own second coming ahead of time. If so, this seems to distinguish the Son and the Father as having different levels of knowledge and power.
Yes, the theology evolved over time. Mark was written first, and the Jesus of Mark if very different from the Jesus of John.
Yes He did. Clearly. And His disciples “worshipped” Him because He was God. And they knew it.
It's complicated to me. Some verses make a distinction.
- “If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.” Jn. 14:28.
- “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.” Jn. 15:1-2.
- “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mt 24:36; see also Mk. 13:32.
Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 seem to suggest that Jesus (“the Son”) is distinct from God because even Jesus will not know of his own second coming ahead of time. If so, this seems to distinguish the Son and the Father as having different levels of knowledge and power.
DID not know at the time. Doesn't mean that HE would NEVER know. HE did know enough to mention the specific 'generation'............
Yes, the theology evolved over time. Mark was written first, and the Jesus of Mark if very different from the Jesus of John.
Or was 'seen' differently by different men of different backgrounds....
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Originally Posted by Hastings
Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes.
It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble.
It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army.
Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God.
I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary.
I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me".
Here we go yet again…
John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus.
When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14.
If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24
How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21
How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22
How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51
How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54
How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30
How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25
If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life.
You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse.
No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice.
There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64
Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40
There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6
The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23
Yes He did. Clearly. And His disciples “worshipped” Him because He was God. And they knew it.
It's complicated to me. Some verses make a distinction.
- “If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.” Jn. 14:28.
- “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.” Jn. 15:1-2.
- “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mt 24:36; see also Mk. 13:32.
Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 seem to suggest that Jesus (“the Son”) is distinct from God because even Jesus will not know of his own second coming ahead of time. If so, this seems to distinguish the Son and the Father as having different levels of knowledge and power.
DID not know at the time. Doesn't mean that HE would NEVER know. HE did know enough to mention the specific 'generation'............
Yes, the theology evolved over time. Mark was written first, and the Jesus of Mark if very different from the Jesus of John.
Or was 'seen' differently by different men of different backgrounds....
No. The are different narratives, with different messages, with a different main characters of the same name.
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator.
Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you.
To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler.
How many of you have "seen" co2? You believe it is real, you believe that plants need it, You believe that it causes "global warming". So here we have a man telling us that something invisible is real, Is this guy a scientist or a Pastor?
Um, Yeah I've seen CO2. It's called dry ice in its solid form and easily visible. If you Christers had paid attention in 9th grade science class you wouldn't be saying such silly things.
If you paid attention you would have known that was actually water vapor.
Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you.
When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator.
Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you.
To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler.
How many of you have "seen" co2? You believe it is real, you believe that plants need it, You believe that it causes "global warming". So here we have a man telling us that something invisible is real, Is this guy a scientist or a Pastor?
Um, Yeah I've seen CO2. It's called dry ice in its solid form and easily visible. If you Christers had paid attention in 9th grade science class you wouldn't be saying such silly things.
If you paid attention you would have known that was actually water vapor.
Frozen CO2 can be visible, in the form of "dry ice" - and as it warms it sublimates to the gaseous form. This comes up somewhere in Chem 1. Please explain the nature and content of "water vapor".
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Originally Posted by Hastings
Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes.
It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble.
It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army.
Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God.
I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary.
I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me".
Here we go yet again…
John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus.
When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14.
If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24
How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21
How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22
How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51
How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54
How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30
How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25
If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life.
You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse.
No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice.
There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64
Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40
There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6
The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23
And that is only the book of John…
Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition?
Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying.
And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also.
All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that.
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Originally Posted by Hastings
Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes.
It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble.
It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army.
Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God.
I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary.
I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me".
Here we go yet again…
John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus.
When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14.
If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24
How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21
How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22
How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51
How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54
How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30
How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25
If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life.
You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse.
No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice.
There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64
Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40
There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6
The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23
And that is only the book of John…
Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition?
Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying.
And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also.
All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that.
If you think about it, just the fact that the NT was written in Greek, more specifically a high form of Greek is a major problem in and of itself.
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Originally Posted by Hastings
Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes.
It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble.
It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army.
Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God.
I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary.
I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me".
Here we go yet again…
John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus.
When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14.
If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24
How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21
How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22
How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51
How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54
How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30
How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25
If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life.
You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse.
No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice.
There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64
Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40
There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6
The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23
And that is only the book of John…
Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition?
Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying.
And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also.
All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that.
If you think about it, just the fact that the NT was written in Greek, more specifically a high form of Greek is a major problem in and of itself.
A 'high' form?? Curious, what was the 'common' language????..... HINT!
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Originally Posted by Hastings
Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes.
It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble.
It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army.
Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God.
I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary.
I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me".
Here we go yet again…
John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus.
When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14.
If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24
How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21
How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22
How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51
How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54
How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30
How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25
If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life.
You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse.
No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice.
There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64
Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40
There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6
The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23
And that is only the book of John…
Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition?
Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying.
And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also.
All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that.
If you think about it, just the fact that the NT was written in Greek, more specifically a high form of Greek is a major problem in and of itself.
A 'high' form?? Curious, what was the 'common' language????..... HINT!
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Originally Posted by Hastings
Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes.
It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble.
It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army.
Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God.
I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary.
I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me".
Here we go yet again…
John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus.
When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14.
If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24
How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21
How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22
How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51
How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54
How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30
How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25
If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life.
You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse.
No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice.
There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64
Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40
There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6
The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23
And that is only the book of John…
Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition?
Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying.
And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also.
All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that.
I’ve noticed you continue to reject Jesus and His Word. You obviously don’t believe what Jesus taught when He said:
“I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father except through me” (Jesus), John 14:6
Salvation is found through no one else, for there is no name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved, Acts 4:12
There is only one way to God—through Jesus Christ, our Savior and Lord.
A/S: Bad news. I'm back on ignore with my boy Snoopy. I didn't think I was being confrontational.
I like discussions that make me think and I like to mentally attack my own beliefs and assumptions. It has not for a long time seemed to me a good idea to stake out a position and refuse to consider it doesn't make sense.
A Southern Baptist lady friend of ours called me recently and invited me to come to her church. I told her I wouldn't fit in well there due to drinking 6 or 7 beers a week and the fact that I wasn't Trinitarian and also I believed some of the NT was forged. She told me right quick that she wasn't going to have to stand before Jesus some day and explain why she did not believe parts of his holy book.
We are still friends and are politically aligned but the church invitation subject was dropped and I don't believe the beer had any part in that.
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Originally Posted by Hastings
Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes.
It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble.
It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army.
Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God.
I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary.
I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me".
Here we go yet again…
John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus.
When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14.
If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24
How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21
How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22
How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51
How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54
How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30
How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25
If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life.
You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse.
No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice.
There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64
Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40
There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6
The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23
And that is only the book of John…
Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition?
Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying.
And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also.
All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that.
If you think about it, just the fact that the NT was written in Greek, more specifically a high form of Greek is a major problem in and of itself.
Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used.
Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity.
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Originally Posted by Hastings
Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes.
It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble.
It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army.
Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God.
I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary.
I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me".
Here we go yet again…
John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus.
When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14.
If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24
How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21
How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22
How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51
How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54
How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30
How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25
If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life.
You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse.
No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice.
There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64
Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40
There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6
The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23
And that is only the book of John…
Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition?
Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying.
And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also.
All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that.
If you think about it, just the fact that the NT was written in Greek, more specifically a high form of Greek is a major problem in and of itself.
Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used.
Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity.
Why would you accept that Bart was a Christian?
Perhaps he was not.
His journey is well chronicled. You don't have to believe me, you can read about it yourself.
A/S: Bad news. I'm back on ignore with my boy Snoopy. I didn't think I was being confrontational.
I like discussions that make me think and I like to mentally attack my own beliefs and assumptions. It has not for a long time seemed to me a good idea to stake out a position and refuse to consider it doesn't make sense.
A Southern Baptist lady friend of ours called me recently and invited me to come to her church. I told her I wouldn't fit in well there due to drinking 6 or 7 beers a week and the fact that I wasn't Trinitarian and also I believed some of the NT was forged. She told me right quick that she wasn't going to have to stand before Jesus some day and explain why she did not believe parts of his holy book.
We are still friends and are politically aligned but the church invitation subject was dropped and I don't believe the beer had any part in that.
Guess you're just too much of a rebel for some. No a "True" enough "Christian" for them.
Why don't you have a discussion about the fact that sure evidence for one individual may not serve as any evidence for another, and the forever subjectivity of that matter. It might illuminate the futility of these puerile yakking matches.
Evidence supports a claim that all can agree concurs with reality - it's not subjective. Belief in a god has no evidence and is divorced from reality, and is entirely subjective - thousands of Christian denominations are evidence of this fact and reality. Here endeth this lesson.
Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree.
Bingo, my point exactly. No evidence therefore anything goes. My god is better than your god...yadda, yadda, yadda... Reality not required, LOL!!!
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe.
Originally Posted by Hastings
Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes.
It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble.
It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army.
Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God.
I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary.
I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me".
Here we go yet again…
John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus.
When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14.
If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24
How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21
How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22
How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51
How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54
How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30
How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25
If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life.
You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse.
No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice.
There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64
Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40
There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6
The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23
And that is only the book of John…
Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition?
Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying.
And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also.
All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that.
If you think about it, just the fact that the NT was written in Greek, more specifically a high form of Greek is a major problem in and of itself.
Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used.
Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity.
Why would you accept that Bart was a Christian?
Perhaps he was not.
His journey is well chronicled. You don't have to believe me, you can read about it yourself.
Quite awhile ago, I read one of his books and a number of his articles.
I know what I think of Bart Ehrman, but it seems to be he is both angry with God and confused.
Why would YOU think that he ever was a “Christian?”
Why would YOU accept that he was a Christian that renounced his belief in Jesus?
Why don't you have a discussion about the fact that sure evidence for one individual may not serve as any evidence for another, and the forever subjectivity of that matter. It might illuminate the futility of these puerile yakking matches.
Evidence supports a claim that all can agree concurs with reality - it's not subjective. Belief in a god has no evidence and is divorced from reality, and is entirely subjective - thousands of Christian denominations are evidence of this fact and reality. Here endeth this lesson.
Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree.
Bingo, my point exactly. No evidence therefore anything goes. My god is better than your god...yadda, yadda, yadda... Reality not required, LOL!!!
You put the BINGO squarely on yourself and highlight the usual disingenuous behavior by deliberately omitting the part of the post that you apparently wish ignored. Here is the whole thing - again:
"Your first statement there is quite faulty. Your use of "all" is a gross assumption based on zero evidence of that factor. What is evidence to you may not be evidence to another, etc.. Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree. Further, there need not be any such "claim" in order for one to experience evidence. Claims seem to be the action of those who wish to prove some point of view or secure a corner on some claimed reality. Objectivity is not created by such claims, or by your sentence."
Sort of. Born Catholic, have since transcended to a higher level of understanding. I suppose that if one is interested they can PM me, or quarrel with me here. What matters more to me is that others catch on. Here is a hint: what you "know" has been tainted by (((adversaries))); just know, that you(!) are the hand of "God".
Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used.
Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity.
Why would you accept that Bart was a Christian?
Perhaps he was not.
Whatever, but you can bet the teachings and words of Jesus were not spoken in High Greek, Low Greek, or any form of Greek and you can bet Matthew never spoke or wrote anything in Greek, likewise the commercial fisherman Peter almost surely would not have bee a speaker of Greek if he was even literate.
The gospels accounts of Jesus we have were spoken in a language that was not Greek, translated into Greek from memory, and now into several versions of English.
There are always losses in translation and eye witness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Go to court sometimes and listen to 3 or 4 witnesses describe the same event.
Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used.
Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity.
Why would you accept that Bart was a Christian?
Perhaps he was not.
Whatever, but you can bet the teachings and words of Jesus were not spoken in High Greek, Low Greek, or any form of Greek and you can bet Matthew never spoke or wrote anything in Greek, likewise the commercial fisherman Peter almost surely would not have bee a speaker of Greek if he was even literate.
The gospels we accounts of Jesus we have were spoken in a language that was not Greek, translated into Greek from memory, and now into several versions of English.
There are always losses in translation and eye witness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Go to court sometimes and listen to 3 or 4 witnesses describe the same event.
Keep in mind by High Greek the language is akin to Shakespearian English in the time of the Rennaissance. It was not the Greek of common people, but the language and style of playwrights and Scholars.
I know what I think of Bart Ehrman, but it seems to be he is both angry with God and confused.
Why would YOU think that he ever was a “Christian?”
Why would YOU accept that he was a Christian that renounced his belief in Jesus?
Are you suggesting that there are no examples of Christians who have lost their faith?
Or perhaps you think they were never "True Christians tm" in the first place?
You’re talking to yourself again, trying to get ahead of the game.
I am referring to Bart Ehrman.
But, since you asked…. What makes someone a “True Christian?”
Do you have any idea?
You have referred to the term, but I suspect you have only the tiniest bit of knowledge of Christian doctrine.
So….should you choose, you can respond in a number of ways.
1.- Some empty headed smart remark, that shows you can’t keep up in the discussion.
2. - You can do an internet search and do some sort of cut and paste, that shows you are incapable of keeping up with the discussion.
3.- Contribute some sort of your own thought or conjecture on the subject what makes a “True Christian.”
So, DBT…. Have at it.
No, he's alluding to your use of The True Scotsman Fallacy, insinuating Bart was not a "True Christian". Bart initially went to Moody Bible Institute. This is a school for true believers. He finished his undergrad at Wheaton before going on to Prinston for his Masters and PHD. The more he learned, the more holes he saw. It's a simple straight forward story.
Yes, knowledge and logic lead him from Christianity. I understand you don't like the idea the knowledge and logic demonstrate the short comings of your beliefs, but for the open minded, it does.
I am not surprised. Specifically how did you come to that belief? Was it something you read? If so, who said it? If you came to that belief by reading something was it unambiguous and was it said clearly on divine authority?
Predestination throws most of the Jewish, Muslim, and Christian religions in the trash.
His children aren’t living right to get to heaven because they know conduct has nothing to do with salvation. They live right because they are his elect and wish to do his will. We are saved by the grace.
Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
Most churches oppose this because it sets believers free. There’s no money in it. You can’t control people.
Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
Most churches oppose this because it sets believers free. There’s no money in it. You can’t control people.
I would have bet big money on who was the author of that belief.
Jesus warned us not to believe he appeared out in the desert (road to Damascus) or in secret chambers (Ananias' house)
It is not ridiculous or surprising to historians when they hear skeptics or those with a clear agenda…like atheists or modern day Judaizers…claim that there are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ life. A case can be made that scholarly positions are that the Gospels of Matthew and John were eyewitness accounts, and the Gospels of Mark and Luke were based on reports from eyewitnesses.
But for the sake of discussion (or argument) let’s say those scholars are wrong. It ‘still’ wouldn’t be a problem for historians because we don’t have any surviving eyewitness accounts for specific historical people from ancient history. None.
There are no surviving eyewitness accounts of the life and deeds of Hannibal of Carthage. We don’t have any eyewitness accounts of the high priest Caiaphas or of the Jewish scholar Honi ‘the circle-drawer’ who lived during that time period. We don’t even have any surviving eyewitness accounts of the ruler of the mighty Roman Empire itself, Tiberius Caesar.
The one person from ancient history who we have the most information on is Jesus. By far. Overwhelmingly so.
So when put into context, it’s not odd or ridiculous to historians when skeptics or those with an agenda…like atheists or modern day Judaizers…claim what they do. Nearly all ancient texts have simply been lost to history. What we have for all of ancient history are copies of copies of copies of copies of copies. And referrals in those copies to other manuscripts.
Pain and suffering in the world, and his inability to reconcile a good and loving God with that, is specifically what led Bart Ehrman away from Christianity. His loss of faith had zero to do with the New Testament manuscripts. He concedes that.
And then, he went looking for reasons to substantiate his new beliefs and agenda. A crystal clear case of confirmation bias.
I know what I think of Bart Ehrman, but it seems to be he is both angry with God and confused.
Why would YOU think that he ever was a “Christian?”
Why would YOU accept that he was a Christian that renounced his belief in Jesus?
Are you suggesting that there are no examples of Christians who have lost their faith?
Or perhaps you think they were never "True Christians tm" in the first place?
You’re talking to yourself again, trying to get ahead of the game.
I am referring to Bart Ehrman.
But, since you asked…. What makes someone a “True Christian?”
Do you have any idea?
You have referred to the term, but I suspect you have only the tiniest bit of knowledge of Christian doctrine.
So….should you choose, you can respond in a number of ways.
1.- Some empty headed smart remark, that shows you can’t keep up in the discussion.
2. - You can do an internet search and do some sort of cut and paste, that shows you are incapable of keeping up with the discussion.
3.- Contribute some sort of your own thought or conjecture on the subject what makes a “True Christian.”
So, DBT…. Have at it.
No, he's alluding to your use of The True Scotsman Fallacy, insinuating Bart was not a "True Christian". Bart initially went to Moody Bible Institute. This is a school for true believers. He finished his undergrad at Wheaton before going on to Prinston for his Masters and PHD. The more he learned, the more holes he saw. It's a simple straight forward story.
Yes, knowledge and logic lead him from Christianity. I understand you don't like the idea the knowledge and logic demonstrate the short comings of your beliefs, but for the open minded, it does.
Fair enough reply, but no, I am not headed to a “True Scotsman” argument.
My intended point is much more basic than that.
Forget Bart Ehrman for now…..we can return to him later….
What makes a “True Christian?” Remember, you brought it up. What if I told you that, when younger, I was a Mormon, but then spent many years as an agnostic….and later “converted to” Catholicism.
You might wonder, was TF a “True Mormon?”
Was TF a “True Agnostic?”
Is TF a “True Catholic?”
So, what makes a “True Christian.”
This is your term, you brought it up….leave Bart out of it for now.
Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used.
Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity.
Why would you accept that Bart was a Christian?
Perhaps he was not.
Whatever, but you can bet the teachings and words of Jesus were not spoken in High Greek, Low Greek, or any form of Greek and you can bet Matthew never spoke or wrote anything in Greek, likewise the commercial fisherman Peter almost surely would not have bee a speaker of Greek if he was even literate.
The gospels we accounts of Jesus we have were spoken in a language that was not Greek, translated into Greek from memory, and now into several versions of English.
There are always losses in translation and eye witness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Go to court sometimes and listen to 3 or 4 witnesses describe the same event.
Keep in mind by High Greek the language is akin to Shakespearian English in the time of the Rennaissance. It was not the Greek of common people, but the language and style of playwrights and Scholars.
Not so…. As “English” is the modern day world wide language…..the most common second language spoken in the world today, so was Greek “universal language” in the Mediterranean. It is incorrect to characterize Greek as only the language of “playwrights and scholars.”
Relying on what men, mere mortals, understood from oral tales, translated centuries earlier, presents severe challenges to meticulous scholars honestly interested in facts alone. True believers are worse off. The level of waste and carnage rival religious factions laid on each other professing to worship the same true God you might think would check present day Christians with a touch of humility. You would be mistaken, as witnessed in this long winded, self righteous confabulation of utter contempt for other views, sincere beliefs, as well as the very Almighty, ageless, eternal, and unknown by human reason, doctrine or faith. Whatever is Higher. That's all we know from the best evidence - manifest indifference. The greatest gift of Christianity is similar to that of Mohamed; every individual soul is equally precious to Him and there is a oneness with God no human master can violate. Romans eventually looked upon Christians as good people following a worthy philosophy, not a religion, whose power transformed the world although its tenets of dignity, love, and non material devotion to service were soon corrupted into hierarchies with factions.
Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used.
Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity.
Why would you accept that Bart was a Christian?
Perhaps he was not.
Whatever, but you can bet the teachings and words of Jesus were not spoken in High Greek, Low Greek, or any form of Greek and you can bet Matthew never spoke or wrote anything in Greek, likewise the commercial fisherman Peter almost surely would not have bee a speaker of Greek if he was even literate.
The gospels we accounts of Jesus we have were spoken in a language that was not Greek, translated into Greek from memory, and now into several versions of English.
There are always losses in translation and eye witness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Go to court sometimes and listen to 3 or 4 witnesses describe the same event.
Keep in mind by High Greek the language is akin to Shakespearian English in the time of the Rennaissance. It was not the Greek of common people, but the language and style of playwrights and Scholars.
Did the NT writers speak Greek? Of course they did and don't forget, the "time of the Gentiles" was beginning, Greek was the best and most widely used language to use. Did Paul, the "apostle to the Gentiles": write in Greek? Of course he did.
See this and investigate further if you want fact and not biased conjecture.
LIFTED.....
Most Jewish Funerary Inscriptions in GREEK!
In the next article in the same issue of Biblical Archaeological Review, the author, Pieter W. Van Der Horst, points out that no less than 1,600 Jewish epitaphs -- funerary inscriptions -- are extant from ancient Palestine dating from 300 B.C. to 500 A.D. The geographical spread of these inscriptions reveal that Jews were living all over the world at that time, especially the Roman period. In other words, when Jesus' brother James said in Acts 15, "Moses has been preached in every city for generations past and is read in the synagogues on every sabbath" (v.21), he was simply stating the truth. Peter, in his first sermon, enumerates a list of the countries from which Jews came to worship on that first Pentecost of the newly formed Christian Church (Acts 2:9-11).
Van Der Horst goes on:
"One of the most surprising facts about these funerary inscriptions is that most of them are IN GREEK -- approximately 70 percent; about 12 percent are in Latin; and only 18 percent are in Hebrew or Aramaic.
"These figures are even more instructive if we break them down between Palestine and the Diaspora. Naturally in Palestine we would expect more Hebrew and Aramaic and less Greek. This is true, but not to any great extent. Even in Palestine approximately TWO-THIRDS of these inscriptions are in GREEK.
"APPARENTLY FOR A GREAT PART OF THE JEWISH POPULATION THE DAILY LANGUAGE WAS GREEK, EVEN IN PALESTINE. This is impressive testimony to the impact of Hellenistic culture on Jews in their mother country, to say nothing of the Diaspora.
"In Jerusalem itself about 40 PERCENT of the Jewish inscriptions from the first century period (before 70 C.E.) ARE IN GREEK. We may assume that most Jewish Jerusalemites who saw the inscriptions in situ were able to read them" ("Jewish Funerary Inscriptions -- Most Are in Greek," Pieter W. Van Der Horst, BAR, Sept.-Oct.1992, p.48).
These are shocking statements to all who have believed, and taught, that the Jews as a whole were ignorant of Greek during the time of Christ! Obviously, Judea was not a "backwater" and "boorish" part of the Roman Empire, but a most sophisticated and cultivated part. In fact, the Jewish Temple was acknowledged to be the finest building structure throughout the whole Empire! The Jewish people, because of their widespread dispersion in the Empire, for business and commercial purposes, mainly, spoke Greek rather fluently -- and this knowledge and usage of Greek was also common throughout Judea, as this new "funerary inscription" evidence attests!
This really should not be surprising at all. The Greek influence in Judea had grown very significantly since the days of Alexander the Great, circa 330 B.C. By the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, circa 168-165 B.C., Hellenism had become very strong, and many of the high priests had become "Hellenists," leading to the Maccabean revolt. In successive generations, the Greek influence never abated, particularly among the business, commercial and priestly crowd. Many of the priests, being Sadducees, were greatly influenced by Greek culture and contact.
Writes Van Der Horst further:
"The great rabbi Judah ha-Nasi, the compiler of the Mishnah (a collection of Jewish oral law) in about 200 C.E., was buried in Beth She-arim; the majority of pious Jews who wanted to be buried with him at Beth She-arim had their funerary inscriptions written in Greek.
"This is not to say Hebrew and Aramaic ever died out completely as languages for the Jews. Especially in the eastern Diaspora, Jews continued to speak a Semitic language. But IN THE FIRST FIVE CENTURIES OF THE COMMON ERA, exactly the period when rabbinic literature was being written in Hebrew and Aramaic, A MAJORITY OF THE JEWS IN PALESTINE and the western Diaspora SPOKE GREEK" (ibid., p.48-54).
All of this is very interesting, of course. But what about Jesus Christ, and the disciples? Did Jesus also use Greek, commonly, in speaking to the people of Judea? For centuries, theologians and scholars have assumed that He only spoke Hebrew or Aramaic. However, this assumption now seems to be far off the mark!
Jesus and the Disciples Spoke Greek!
Another article in the very same issue of BAR discusses this very issue. The author, Joseph A. Fitzmyer, points out that there is no doubt Jesus spoke Aramaic. He shows that although a form of Aramaic was "the dominant language, it was not the only language spoken in Palestine at that time." He continues:
"The Dead Sea scrolls reveal that a TRILINGUALISM EXISTED IN PALESTINE in the first and second century of the Christian era. In addition to Aramaic, some Jews also spoke Hebrew or Greek -- or both. Different levels of Jewish society, different kinds of religious training and other factors may have determined who spoke what" ("Did Jesus Speak Greek?", same issue of BAR, p.58).
During the Babylonian captivity, many Jews came to use Aramaic as their first language, a sister language closely akin to Hebrew. Although Hebrew continued in use in the Temple, and the emerging synagogues, Aramaic was the common language of the people during the time of Christ. The majority of the people apparently did not fully understand Hebrew, for the custom arose to have an Aramaic translation read of the Hebrew Scriptures, following the reading in Hebrew, in all the synagogues. These readings and interpretations were done by a person called the meturgeman. In time, they were written down and were called targumin.
But what about Greek? Says Fitzmyer:
"Greek, of course, was in widespread use in the Roman empire at this time. Even the Romans spoke Greek, as inscriptions in Rome and elsewhere attest. It is hardly surprising, therefore, that THAT GREEK WAS ALSO IN COMMON USE AMONG THE JEWS OF PALESTINE. The Hellenization of Palestine began even before the fourth-century B.C. conquest by Alexander the Great. Hellenistic culture among the Jews of Palestine spread more quickly after Alexander's conquest, especially when the country was ruled by the Seleucid monarch Antiochus IV Epiphanes (second century B.C.), and later under certain Jewish Hasmonean and Herodian kings" (p.59).
A reference to Greek-speaking Jews is found clearly in the book of Acts. In Acts 6:1 certain early Christians in Jerusalem are spoken of as being "Hellenists." The King James Version says, "And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians (Hellenistai) against the Hebrews (Hebraioi), because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration" (Acts 6:1). Who were these Hellenists or "Greeks"? The term applies to Greek-speaking Jews, in whose synagogues Greek was spoken, and where undoubtedly the Septuagint Scriptures were commonly used. This is verified in Acts 9:29 where we read: "And he (Saul, whose name was later changed to Paul) spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians . . ." The "Grecians" or "Hellenists" were the Greek-speaking Jews, who had their own synagogues, even in Jerusalem.
Says Fitzmyer:
"Such Hellenistai may have spoken very little, if any, Hebrew or Aramaic. This is suggested by a reference in Philippians 3:5 where Paul stoutly refers to himself as 'a Hebrew of the Hebrews.' Paul also spoke Greek. Thus Hellinistai as C. F. D. Moule has suggested probably is the designation of those Jerusalem Jews or Jewish Christians who habitually spoke only Greek (and for that reason were more affected by Hellenistic culture), whereas Hebraioi designated those Greek-speaking Jews and Jewish Christians who also spoke a Semitic language, probably Aramaic, which they normally used" (ibid., p.60).
What about Jesus Christ, and the apostles? Did they, too, commonly speak Greek as a "second language"?
"The answer is almost certainly yes. The more difficult question, however, is whether he taught in Greek. Are any of the sayings of Jesus that are preserved for us only in Greek nevertheless in the original language in which he uttered them?
"That Aramaic was the language Jesus normally used for both conversation and teaching seems clear. Most New Testament scholars would agree with this. But did he also speak Greek? The evidence already recounted for the use of Greek in first-century Palestine provides the background for an answer to this question. But there are more specific indi- cations in the Gospels themselves.
"All four Gospels depict Jesus conversing with Pontius Pilate, the Roman prefect of Judea, at the time of his trial (Mark 15;2-5; Matthew 27:11-14; Luke 23:3; John 18:33- 38). Even if we allow for obvious literary embellishment of these accounts, there can be little doubt that Jesus and Pilate did engage in some kind of conversation . . . In what language did Jesus and Pilate converse? There is no mention of an interpreter. Since there is little likelihood that Pilate, a Roman, would have been able to speak either Aramaic or Hebrew, the obvious answer is that JESUS SPOKE GREEK at his trial before Pilate" (p.61).
Similarly, when Jesus conversed with the Roman centurion, a commander of a troop of Roman soldiers, the centurion most likely did not speak Aramaic or Hebrew. It is most likely that Jesus conversed with him in Greek, the common language of the time throughout the Roman empire (see Matt.8:5-13; Luke 7:2-10; John 4:46-53). A royal official of Rome, in the service of Herod Antipas, a Gentile, would most likely spoken with Jesus in Greek.
In addition, we find that Jesus journeyed to the pagan area of Tyre and Sidon, where He spoke with a Syro-Phoenician woman. The Gospel of Mark identifies this woman as Hellenes, meaning a "Greek" (Mark 7:26). The probability is, therefore, that Jesus spoke to her in Greek.
Even more remarkable, however, is the account in John 12, where we are told: "And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus" (John 12:20-21). These men were Greeks, and most likely spoke Greek, which Philip evidently understood, having grown up in the region of Galilee, not the back-water region many have assumed, but "Galilee of the Gentiles" (Matt.4:15) -- a place of commerce and international trade, where Greek would have been the normal language of business.
Having grown up in Galilee, it is evident that Jesus and His disciples must have spoken Greek, whenever it suited their purpose to do so. Declares Fitzmyer:
"Moreover, these specific instances in which Jesus apparently spoke Greek are consistent with his Galilean background. In Matthew 4;15, this area is referred to as 'Galilee of the Gentiles.' Growing up and living in this area, Jesus would have had to speak some Greek. Nazareth was a mere hour's walk to Sepphoris and in the vicinity of other cities of the Decapolis. Tiberias, on the Sea of Galilee, was built by Herod Antipas; the population there, too, was far more bilingual than in Jerusalem.
"Coming from such an area, JESUS would NO DOUBT HAVE SHARED THIS DOUBLE LINGUISTIC HERITAGE. Reared in an area where many inhabitants were GREEK- SPEAKING GENTILES, Jesus, the 'carpenter' (tekon, Mark 6:3), like Joseph, his foster- father (Matthew 13:55), would have had to deal with them in GREEK. Jesus was not an illiterate peasant and did not come from the lowest stratum of Palestinian society; he was a skilled craftsman. He is said to have had a house in Capernaum (Mark 2:15). He would naturally have conducted business in Greek with gentiles in Nazareth and neighboring Sepphoris" (ibid.).
Did Jesus also, therefore, teach in Greek? Were many of His parables and saying actually uttered in the Greek language?
If the answer is yes, as A. W. Argyle says, "We may have direct access to the original utterances of our Lord and not only to a translation of them."
Pain and suffering in the world, and his inability to reconcile a good and loving God with that, is specifically what led Bart Ehrman away from Christianity. His loss of faith had zero to do with the New Testament manuscripts. He concedes that.
And then, he went looking for reasons to substantiate his new beliefs and agenda. A crystal clear case of confirmation bias.
Nope.
If you watch his content, especially his newer content he discusses how textual issues contributed to his disbelief, but problem of good and evil was a greater contributing factor for him. It doesn't have to be an either or, multiple factors can contribute to a belief.
Pain and suffering in the world, and his inability to reconcile a good and loving God with that, is specifically what led Bart Ehrman away from Christianity. His loss of faith had zero to do with the New Testament manuscripts. He concedes that. And then, he went looking for reasons to substantiate his new beliefs and agenda. A crystal clear case of confirmation bias.
Nope. If you watch his content, especially his newer content he discusses how textual issues contributed to his disbelief, but problem of good and evil was a greater contributing factor for him. It doesn't have to be an either or, multiple factors can contribute to a belief.
Yep.
The problem of pain and suffering was the thing that caused him to lose his faith. He’s clearly said so. And again, after he lost his faith, he went looking for reasons to substantiate his new beliefs and agenda. Confirmation bias, to a T.
Many people misunderstand predestination. Each person has a free will to make a choice to either believe or reject Christ and the gospel. Then comes predestination, all those who accepted Christ are predestined to be conformed to His image to be like him - Rom 8:30, Those who reject Christ are predestined to eternal separation from Christ in the Lake of Fire. Paul's sermon in Acts 13:46 places responsibility on those who reject Christ, "Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
"The problem of suffering has haunted me for a very long time. It was what made me begin to think about religion when I was young, and it was what led me to question my faith when I was older. Ultimately, it was the reason I lost my faith."
More on Bart Ehrman later.....
But, back to AS......
".....What makes a “True Christian?” Remember, you brought it up. What if I told you that, when younger, I was a Mormon, but then spent many years as an agnostic….and later “converted to” Catholicism.
You might wonder, was TF a “True Mormon?”
Was TF a “True Agnostic?”
Is TF a “True Catholic?”"
So, what makes a “True Christian.”
This is your term, you brought it up….leave Bart out of it for now.
"The problem of suffering has haunted me for a very long time. It was what made me begin to think about religion when I was young, and it was what led me to question my faith when I was older. Ultimately, it was THE reason I lost my faith."
"The problem of suffering has haunted me for a very long time. It was what made me begin to think about religion when I was young, and it was what led me to question my faith when I was older. Ultimately, it was THE reason I lost my faith."
Thanks TF49.
Right. Ultimately it was the reason. That doesn't mean it was the only reason.
"The problem of suffering has haunted me for a very long time. It was what made me begin to think about religion when I was young, and it was what led me to question my faith when I was older. Ultimately, it was THE reason I lost my faith."
Thanks TF49.
Right. Ultimately it was the reason. That doesn't mean it was the only reason.
Sure, when he began to pursue the “atheist” market, he changed/added to his testimony to make it more appealing to that audience. Is that what happened?
Oldest trick in the book….”tell audience what they want to hear.”
I know what I think of Bart Ehrman, but it seems to be he is both angry with God and confused.
Why would YOU think that he ever was a “Christian?”
Why would YOU accept that he was a Christian that renounced his belief in Jesus?
Are you suggesting that there are no examples of Christians who have lost their faith?
Or perhaps you think they were never "True Christians tm" in the first place?
You’re talking to yourself again, trying to get ahead of the game.
I am referring to Bart Ehrman.
But, since you asked…. What makes someone a “True Christian?”
Do you have any idea?
You have referred to the term, but I suspect you have only the tiniest bit of knowledge of Christian doctrine.
So….should you choose, you can respond in a number of ways.
1.- Some empty headed smart remark, that shows you can’t keep up in the discussion.
2. - You can do an internet search and do some sort of cut and paste, that shows you are incapable of keeping up with the discussion.
3.- Contribute some sort of your own thought or conjecture on the subject what makes a “True Christian.”
So, DBT…. Have at it.
No, he's alluding to your use of The True Scotsman Fallacy, insinuating Bart was not a "True Christian". Bart initially went to Moody Bible Institute. This is a school for true believers. He finished his undergrad at Wheaton before going on to Prinston for his Masters and PHD. The more he learned, the more holes he saw. It's a simple straight forward story.
Yes, knowledge and logic lead him from Christianity. I understand you don't like the idea the knowledge and logic demonstrate the short comings of your beliefs, but for the open minded, it does.
Now there you go again…. bobbing and weaving….trying to divert from the central issue.
Forget Bart Ehrman…I realize he is your favorite poster boy but can you get back to the base issue?
YOU are the one that brought up the issue of “True Christian.” You used that term in reasonably good context but now you flee from it.
So…..back to question that you are clearly very reluctant to address:
".....What makes a “True Christian?” Remember, you brought it up. What if I told you that, when younger, I was a Mormon, but then spent many years as an agnostic….and later “converted to” Catholicism.
You might wonder, was TF a “True Mormon?”
Was TF a “True Agnostic?”
Is TF a “True Catholic?”"
So, what makes a “True Christian.”
This is your term, you brought it up….leave Bart out of it for now.
Confirmation bias has been mentioned. It is on full display by the ones that are sure of themselves. I'm going to keep studying and keep being suspicious of those who don't heed Gandhi's advice to "not be too sure of ones own wisdom'' .... ''even the wisest might err".
The apostle John said, “And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”
You go ahead and heed Gandhi’s advice; I’ll heed the apostle John’s advice.
Confirmation bias has been mentioned. It is on full display by the ones that are sure of themselves. I'm going to keep studying and keep being suspicious of those who don't heed Gandhi's advice to "not be too sure of ones own wisdom'' .... ''even the wisest might err".
Yes, was this one of times that Gandhi quoted from the Bible?
Proverbs 3:7 “Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the Lord (with reverent awe and obedience) and turn away from evil.”
A similar thought is seen in verse 5: “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.”
The apostle John said, “And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”
You go ahead and heed Gandhi’s advice; I’ll heed the apostle John’s advice.
I like Gandhi and he liked Jesus. John was correct on a good bit of his commentary but he was out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and leaves out some pretty significant events such as the Sermon on the Mount. I would say his account was written with more of an agenda than were the 3 synoptics which were written mostly as a record.
We are dealing with at best a pretty sparse account of a 30 plus year long life and a three year stint as a traveling preacher and prophet.
The apostle John said, “And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”
You go ahead and heed Gandhi’s advice; I’ll heed the apostle John’s advice.
I like Gandhi and he liked Jesus. John was correct on a good bit of his commentary but he was out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and leaves out some pretty significant events such as the Sermon on the Mount. I would say his account was written with more of an agenda than were the 3 synoptics which were written mostly as a record.
We are dealing with at best a pretty sparse account of a 30 plus year long life and a three year stint as a traveling preacher and prophet.
Each of the gospels was written for a different audience with a different message. As an example Matthew is for a Jewish audience.
That's why we only find the following in Matthew:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Got it. John’s Gospel and commentary doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda, so you just discount it. You do the same with Jesus’ own words when they don’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda too (you simply discount em’, or twist and distort em’ until they suit your needs). It’s not surprising that you discount John’s Gospel, because in it he clearly affirms Jesus’ divinity.
I know what I think of Bart Ehrman, but it seems to be he is both angry with God and confused.
Why would YOU think that he ever was a “Christian?”
Why would YOU accept that he was a Christian that renounced his belief in Jesus?
Are you suggesting that there are no examples of Christians who have lost their faith?
Or perhaps you think they were never "True Christians tm" in the first place?
You’re talking to yourself again, trying to get ahead of the game.
I am referring to Bart Ehrman.
But, since you asked…. What makes someone a “True Christian?”
Do you have any idea?
You have referred to the term, but I suspect you have only the tiniest bit of knowledge of Christian doctrine.
So….should you choose, you can respond in a number of ways.
1.- Some empty headed smart remark, that shows you can’t keep up in the discussion.
2. - You can do an internet search and do some sort of cut and paste, that shows you are incapable of keeping up with the discussion.
3.- Contribute some sort of your own thought or conjecture on the subject what makes a “True Christian.”
So, DBT…. Have at it.
No, he's alluding to your use of The True Scotsman Fallacy, insinuating Bart was not a "True Christian". Bart initially went to Moody Bible Institute. This is a school for true believers. He finished his undergrad at Wheaton before going on to Prinston for his Masters and PHD. The more he learned, the more holes he saw. It's a simple straight forward story.
Yes, knowledge and logic lead him from Christianity. I understand you don't like the idea the knowledge and logic demonstrate the short comings of your beliefs, but for the open minded, it does.
Now there you go again…. bobbing and weaving….trying to divert from the central issue.
Forget Bart Ehrman…I realize he is your favorite poster boy but can you get back to the base issue?
YOU are the one that brought up the issue of “True Christian.” You used that term in reasonably good context but now you flee from it.
So…..back to question that you are clearly very reluctant to address:
".....What makes a “True Christian?” Remember, you brought it up. What if I told you that, when younger, I was a Mormon, but then spent many years as an agnostic….and later “converted to” Catholicism.
You might wonder, was TF a “True Mormon?”
Was TF a “True Agnostic?”
Is TF a “True Catholic?”"
So, what makes a “True Christian.”
This is your term, you brought it up….leave Bart out of it for now.
I brought up the True Scotsman Fallacy in the context of you questioning Eherman's Christian roots by your suggesting that he was never a real Christian. This isn't my first rodeo. I know your tricks.
It is not ridiculous or surprising to historians when they hear skeptics or those with a clear agenda…like atheists or modern day Judaizers…claim that there are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ life. A case can be made that scholarly positions are that the Gospels of Matthew and John were eyewitness accounts, and the Gospels of Mark and Luke were based on reports from eyewitnesses.
But for the sake of discussion (or argument) let’s say those scholars are wrong. It ‘still’ wouldn’t be a problem for historians because we don’t have any surviving eyewitness accounts for specific historical people from ancient history. None.
There are no surviving eyewitness accounts of the life and deeds of Hannibal of Carthage. We don’t have any eyewitness accounts of the high priest Caiaphas or of the Jewish scholar Honi ‘the circle-drawer’ who lived during that time period. We don’t even have any surviving eyewitness accounts of the ruler of the mighty Roman Empire itself, Tiberius Caesar.
The one person from ancient history who we have the most information on is Jesus. By far. Overwhelmingly so.
So when put into context, it’s not odd or ridiculous to historians when skeptics or those with an agenda…like atheists or modern day Judaizers…claim what they do. Nearly all ancient texts have simply been lost to history. What we have for all of ancient history are copies of copies of copies of copies of copies. And referrals in those copies to other manuscripts.
In comparison to Jesus, the claims about Hannibal are rather mundane. In the Ancient World Generals were common, Gods and the Sons of Gods were not, and no one claims the fate of their eternal soul is contingent upon the historical text written about Hannibal. Mundane claims require mundane evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Regardless, much of what we commonly believe about alleged historical figures is not true. Sun Tzu, as described in "The Art of War", did not exist. At best he's a composite character, and the deeds attributed to him spanned several life times.
Did Hannibal exist, fair quesiton. At minimum it's likely some of his exploits were exaggerated, and his ending and how it resulted in the end of Carthage reads something like a morality tale, so there room for a discussion regarding what is or is not the real story, but I don't see anyone praying to him nightly, or elevating him to diety status, so your red herring is not the equivalency you think it is.
Pain and suffering in the world, and his inability to reconcile a good and loving God with that, is specifically what led Bart Ehrman away from Christianity. His loss of faith had zero to do with the New Testament manuscripts. He concedes that. And then, he went looking for reasons to substantiate his new beliefs and agenda. A crystal clear case of confirmation bias.
Nope. If you watch his content, especially his newer content he discusses how textual issues contributed to his disbelief, but problem of good and evil was a greater contributing factor for him. It doesn't have to be an either or, multiple factors can contribute to a belief.
Yep.
The problem of pain and suffering was the thing that caused him to lose his faith. He’s clearly said so. And again, after he lost his faith, he went looking for reasons to substantiate his new beliefs and agenda. Confirmation bias, to a T.
Yes, you have a strong confirmation bias.
Regardless, this is your strawman. Regardless of why he changed his mind, the scholarship is the scholarship, and the evidence is the evidence, and he and I are free to agree or disagree on what pieces fit where.
Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used.
Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity.
Why would you accept that Bart was a Christian?
Perhaps he was not.
Whatever, but you can bet the teachings and words of Jesus were not spoken in High Greek, Low Greek, or any form of Greek and you can bet Matthew never spoke or wrote anything in Greek, likewise the commercial fisherman Peter almost surely would not have bee a speaker of Greek if he was even literate.
The gospels we accounts of Jesus we have were spoken in a language that was not Greek, translated into Greek from memory, and now into several versions of English.
There are always losses in translation and eye witness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Go to court sometimes and listen to 3 or 4 witnesses describe the same event.
Keep in mind by High Greek the language is akin to Shakespearian English in the time of the Rennaissance. It was not the Greek of common people, but the language and style of playwrights and Scholars.
Not so…. As “English” is the modern day world wide language…..the most common second language spoken in the world today, so was Greek “universal language” in the Mediterranean. It is incorrect to characterize Greek as only the language of “playwrights and scholars.”
It wasn't written in common Greek, nor was it written in the language attributed to his followers.
Pain and suffering in the world, and his inability to reconcile a good and loving God with that, is specifically what led Bart Ehrman away from Christianity. His loss of faith had zero to do with the New Testament manuscripts. He concedes that. And then, he went looking for reasons to substantiate his new beliefs and agenda. A crystal clear case of confirmation bias.
Nope. If you watch his content, especially his newer content he discusses how textual issues contributed to his disbelief, but problem of good and evil was a greater contributing factor for him. It doesn't have to be an either or, multiple factors can contribute to a belief.
Yep.
The problem of pain and suffering was the thing that caused him to lose his faith. He’s clearly said so. And again, after he lost his faith, he went looking for reasons to substantiate his new beliefs and agenda. Confirmation bias, to a T.
YES, YOU HAVE A STRONG CONFIRMATION BIAS.
Regardless, this is your strawman. Regardless of why he changed his mind, the scholarship is the scholarship, and the evidence is the evidence, and he and I are free to agree or disagree on what pieces fit where.
I know what I think of Bart Ehrman, but it seems to be he is both angry with God and confused.
Why would YOU think that he ever was a “Christian?”
Why would YOU accept that he was a Christian that renounced his belief in Jesus?
Are you suggesting that there are no examples of Christians who have lost their faith?
Or perhaps you think they were never "True Christians tm" in the first place?
You’re talking to yourself again, trying to get ahead of the game.
I am referring to Bart Ehrman.
But, since you asked…. What makes someone a “True Christian?”
Do you have any idea?
You have referred to the term, but I suspect you have only the tiniest bit of knowledge of Christian doctrine.
So….should you choose, you can respond in a number of ways.
1.- Some empty headed smart remark, that shows you can’t keep up in the discussion.
2. - You can do an internet search and do some sort of cut and paste, that shows you are incapable of keeping up with the discussion.
3.- Contribute some sort of your own thought or conjecture on the subject what makes a “True Christian.”
So, DBT…. Have at it.
No, he's alluding to your use of The True Scotsman Fallacy, insinuating Bart was not a "True Christian". Bart initially went to Moody Bible Institute. This is a school for true believers. He finished his undergrad at Wheaton before going on to Prinston for his Masters and PHD. The more he learned, the more holes he saw. It's a simple straight forward story.
Yes, knowledge and logic lead him from Christianity. I understand you don't like the idea the knowledge and logic demonstrate the short comings of your beliefs, but for the open minded, it does.
Now there you go again…. bobbing and weaving….trying to divert from the central issue.
Forget Bart Ehrman…I realize he is your favorite poster boy but can you get back to the base issue?
YOU are the one that brought up the issue of “True Christian.” You used that term in reasonably good context but now you flee from it.
So…..back to question that you are clearly very reluctant to address:
".....What makes a “True Christian?” Remember, you brought it up. What if I told you that, when younger, I was a Mormon, but then spent many years as an agnostic….and later “converted to” Catholicism.
You might wonder, was TF a “True Mormon?”
Was TF a “True Agnostic?”
Is TF a “True Catholic?”"
So, what makes a “True Christian.”
This is your term, you brought it up….leave Bart out of it for now.
I brought up the True Scotsman Fallacy in the context of you questioning Eherman's Christian roots by your suggesting that he was never a real Christian. This isn't my first rodeo. I know your tricks.
Hmm….. why would you not question whether or not Bart Ehrman was a “real Christian?” Again the term “real Christian” is your term, not mine. Wouldn’t you want to know? Is Bart Ehrman just a poser or was he indeed a “real Christian” who recanted the faith?
Obviously…..You don’t want to know because that knowledge might destroy the “atheist poster boy’s” credibility.
But, I digress, Mr. Ehrman is not the most important issue.
This may not be the first rodeo you have attended but all you really do is watch from the stands.
You refuse to jump in and mix it up…..like they say….”all hat, no cattle, never been on a horse.”
I conclude that you are literally unable to define or describe what a “True Christian” is. You don’t know do you?
You back away as soon as something hits too close to home.
You retreated from the “hell” question, you backed away from the “sentient being” issue and now you are fleeing from the “True Christian” issue.
Right now, I have a “ranch to run” but will return this evening and explain it to you.
Btw…I cannot remember, but have I ever alleged that Bart Ehrman was not a “True Christian?” I think I have not, but perhaps I have forgotten. Do you recall me ever alleging he was not a “Christian?”
I know what I think of Bart Ehrman, but it seems to be he is both angry with God and confused.
Why would YOU think that he ever was a “Christian?”
Why would YOU accept that he was a Christian that renounced his belief in Jesus?
Are you suggesting that there are no examples of Christians who have lost their faith?
Or perhaps you think they were never "True Christians tm" in the first place?
You’re talking to yourself again, trying to get ahead of the game.
I am referring to Bart Ehrman.
But, since you asked…. What makes someone a “True Christian?”
Do you have any idea?
You have referred to the term, but I suspect you have only the tiniest bit of knowledge of Christian doctrine.
So….should you choose, you can respond in a number of ways.
1.- Some empty headed smart remark, that shows you can’t keep up in the discussion.
2. - You can do an internet search and do some sort of cut and paste, that shows you are incapable of keeping up with the discussion.
3.- Contribute some sort of your own thought or conjecture on the subject what makes a “True Christian.”
So, DBT…. Have at it.
No, he's alluding to your use of The True Scotsman Fallacy, insinuating Bart was not a "True Christian". Bart initially went to Moody Bible Institute. This is a school for true believers. He finished his undergrad at Wheaton before going on to Prinston for his Masters and PHD. The more he learned, the more holes he saw. It's a simple straight forward story.
Yes, knowledge and logic lead him from Christianity. I understand you don't like the idea the knowledge and logic demonstrate the short comings of your beliefs, but for the open minded, it does.
Now there you go again…. bobbing and weaving….trying to divert from the central issue.
Forget Bart Ehrman…I realize he is your favorite poster boy but can you get back to the base issue?
YOU are the one that brought up the issue of “True Christian.” You used that term in reasonably good context but now you flee from it.
So…..back to question that you are clearly very reluctant to address:
".....What makes a “True Christian?” Remember, you brought it up. What if I told you that, when younger, I was a Mormon, but then spent many years as an agnostic….and later “converted to” Catholicism.
You might wonder, was TF a “True Mormon?”
Was TF a “True Agnostic?”
Is TF a “True Catholic?”"
So, what makes a “True Christian.”
This is your term, you brought it up….leave Bart out of it for now.
I brought up the True Scotsman Fallacy in the context of you questioning Eherman's Christian roots by your suggesting that he was never a real Christian. This isn't my first rodeo. I know your tricks.
Hmm….. why would you not question whether or not Bart Ehrman was a “real Christian?” Again the term “real Christian” is your term, not mine. Wouldn’t you want to know? Is Bart Ehrman just a poser or was he indeed a “real Christian” who recanted the faith?
Obviously…..You don’t want to know because that knowledge might destroy the “atheist poster boy’s” credibility.
But, I digress, Mr. Ehrman is not the most important issue.
This may not be the first rodeo you have attended but all you really do is watch from the stands.
You refuse to jump in and mix it up…..like they say….”all hat, no cattle, never been on a horse.”
I conclude that you are literally unable to define or describe what a “True Christian” is. You don’t know do you?
You back away as soon as something hits too close to home.
You retreated from the “hell” question, you backed away from the “sentient being” issue and now you are fleeing from the “True Christian” issue.
Right now, I have a “ranch to run” but will return this evening and explain it to you.
Btw…I cannot remember, but have I ever alleged that Bart Ehrman was not a “True Christian?” I think I have not, but perhaps I have forgotten. Do you recall me ever alleging he was not a “Christian?”
The Christians in each of these boxes thinks they are the only "True Christians":
So you tell me, which box is right, and which one's are wrong.
When the Yids had Jesus crucified, they celebrated with psychotic glee
But the Glorious Resurrection of Jesus Christ has had them on a maniacal warpath of destruction and disinformation ever since, they cannot rest if humanity holds Christ & the Holy Cross in reverance, their sanity is frayed to contortions of pure black hatred & demonic rage !
Their sole purpose on Earth is to mock and pervert Christianity until nothing is left
The atheists who aid them are nothing more than brainwashed empty headed vessels ... aka , "useful idiots"
When the Yids had Jesus crucified, they celebrated with psychotic glee
But the Glorious Resurrection of Jesus Christ has had them on a maniacal warpath of destruction and disinformation ever since, they cannot rest if humanity holds Christ & the Holy Cross in reverance, their sanity is frayed to contortions of pure black hatred & demonic rage !
Their sole purpose on Earth is to mock and pervert Christianity until nothing is left
The atheists who aid them are nothing more than brainwashed empty headed vessels ... aka , "useful idiots"
When the Yids had Jesus crucified, they celebrated with psychotic glee
But the Glorious Resurrection of Jesus Christ has had them on a maniacal warpath of destruction and disinformation ever since, they cannot rest if humanity holds Christ & the Holy Cross in reverance, their sanity is frayed to contortions of pure black hatred & demonic rage !
Their sole purpose on Earth is to mock and pervert Christianity until nothing is left
The atheists who aid them are nothing more than brainwashed empty headed vessels ... aka , "useful idiots"
Thought that was the Democrats not the "Yids"
Who controls them is the real question .... Plus, look at the last names of key Democrats
Get an older bible and read it (not a modern opinionated one). If you follow God's laws and behave accordingly your life will change. Everyone is free to make their own choices. It's never too late to be awakened.
OK, my responses will be in three maybe four parts.
Part One:
Jesus is the law giver and the judge, not me. I, as a mortal and sin affected man cannot be all knowing about the salvation of someone else. There are “carnal” Christians, those whose life styles are virtually in distinguishable from those that are not saved. And there are those that have the appearance of “Christian behavior” but are sadly not saved. Not known by Jesus and not in the Body of Christ.
For example: Jesus speaking about judgment
Matthew 7:21 -23………21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
This passage speaks of those who are “play acting” or have adopted a self serving Christian “lifestyle” but who are not actually saved. (See Paul's letter - Corinthians)
They have lived a life of rebellion to Christ and are judged accordingly.
We do not know their hearts, we can only observe behaviors. Behaviors may or may not give us a clue.
So, consider the “carnal” Christian and the “play acting Christian.” I am not able to correctly discern the difference with any sort of certainty………. but God can and does.
Bart Ehrman? I do not know his salvation status …now or in the future. He could be lost now and saved tomorrow. Was he saved at a young age and then recanted? I don’t know and neither does anyone else. He is not the main point anyhow.
Given the Part One distinction, there are indeed True Christians and False Christians.
There were two thieves on crosses there with Jesus. See Luke 23:33-43 … Both thieves started out mocking Jesus and blaspheming Him. One “saw the light” and the other apparently did not.
One thief, the “penitent” thief said: “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Jesus responded: “Truly, I say to you, todayyou will be with me in paradise.”
IMPORTANT POINT: See that Jesus KNOWS the first thief. Jesus speaks directly to the man. There is no record of Jesus speaking to or "knowing" the thief in rebellion.
So, one thief asked for and received salvation….. a true born again, forgiven Christian.
The second thief apparently continued in his mocking and rebellion toward Jesus. We don’t the complete story regarding the end of the second thief but …..
The point of this is that one thief sought Jesus and requested to be with Jesus in His kingdom. The second thief apparently stayed in his rebellion.
Both men were guilty of significant crimes. The penitent thief made comments about he and the other thief were guilty and deserved their punishment.
Both men were guilty and deserved to die…. One sought and received forgiveness and the other presumably died in a state of rebellion.
One thief spends eternity with Jesus in “Paradise” and the other thief, who died in rebellion, spends his eternity alone in the "outer darkness."
“True Christians,” whether they lived a life like the first thief or like one to the apostles, spend eternity in fellowship with God.
Those that die in rebellion toward God spend eternity separated from God.
Seek God, Find God….. Don’t seek God, Don’t Find God
Part Three: The Crucial Characteristic of the True Christian
Further to idea that one can know the truth about one’s salvation and know that God is who HE says he is and will do what He says He will do is seen in the Book of John.
Consider the “Christian” in light of this:
Jesus in prayer for His followers…. John 17:20-23
“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” .........“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they maybe perfected in unity……”
Why is this so important? The Christian HAS Jesus ….. within. The Christian HAS the inner witness of the Holy Spirit. A good verse to start with understanding the inner work of the Holy Spirit is Acts 1:8…Jesus speaking: “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Simply put, God is within the Christian and is a constant companion. Non-Christians do not understand and have not experienced this. They “don’t know what they don’t know.”
The Christian knows God and more importantly, God knows that individual. The Christian will never hear those awful dreaded words...."...Depart from Me, I never knew you..."
The one in rebellion does not know and this is foolishness to him. He cannot know and will not know until his “seeking” moves to “finding.”
Note that the one who lives in a state of rebellion toward God can indeed chose to stay there and ultimately die in rebellion.
Part Four…. “More about Rebellion” ….. will be coming late tomorrow…..
Why is there good and evil? Because everyone has free choice in life! How do you know the difference between the two choices. I leave that to ponder.
Knowing the difference between good and evil is very simple. At the age of accountability in one’s life, you’ll know the difference. Choose wrong and you’ll pay the price immediately or down the line. Sometimes the choices could well be between the lesser of two evils. That happens.
A cow produces 2 liquids. One is nourishing the other is waste. Exercising your free will, Which would you choose to consume? One would know which at early age.
God gives us freedom to choose, and then honors our choices. If one chooses to spend eternity in God’s presence, then that person can. Period. If one chooses to not spend eternity in God’s presence, then God will honor that persons choice as well.
God gives us freedom to choose, and then honors our choices. If one chooses to spend eternity in God’s presence, then that person can. Period. If one chooses to not spend eternity in God’s presence, then God will honor that persons choice as well.
Not according to those who believe in The Elect. God chooses for you.
Part Three: The Crucial Characteristic of the True Christian
Further to idea that one can know the truth about one’s salvation and know that God is who HE says he is and will do what He says He will do is seen in the Book of John.
Consider the “Christian” in light of this:
Jesus in prayer for His followers…. John 17:20-23
“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” .........“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they maybe perfected in unity……”
Why is this so important? The Christian HAS Jesus ….. within. The Christian HAS the inner witness of the Holy Spirit. A good verse to start with understanding the inner work of the Holy Spirit is Acts 1:8…Jesus speaking: “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Simply put, God is within the Christian and is a constant companion. Non-Christians do not understand and have not experienced this. They “don’t know what they don’t know.”
The Christian knows God and more importantly, God knows that individual. The Christian will never hear those awful dreaded words...."...Depart from Me, I never knew you..."
The one in rebellion does not know and this is foolishness to him. He cannot know and will not know until his “seeking” moves to “finding.”
Note that the one who lives in a state of rebellion toward God can indeed chose to stay there and ultimately die in rebellion.
Part Four…. “More about Rebellion” ….. will be coming late tomorrow…..
That's your view.
And there's thousands of Christian denominations, all with their own views of what makes a "True Christian".
So which denominations are right, and which ones are wrong?
Let me know when you all agree. Until then, your alleged god appears very weak, or non-existant:
God gives us freedom to choose, and then honors our choices. If one chooses to spend eternity in God’s presence, then that person can. Period. If one chooses to not spend eternity in God’s presence, then God will honor that persons choice as well.
Not according to those who believe in The Elect. God chooses for you.
Which is a bit of a problem, when you consider Paul's statement...
Let me know when you all agree. Until then, your alleged god appears very weak, or non-existent.
As long as they agree that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead, and they accept God’s gift of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone, then they’re good to go. Period.
Let me know when you all agree. Until then, your alleged god appears very weak, or non-existent.
As long as they agree that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead, and they accept God’s gift of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone, then they’re good to go. Period.
It is your argument that is weak.
That might be YOUR view, but that's not the view of all Christians.
That's your view. And there's thousands of Christian denominations, all with their own views of what makes a "True Christian". So which denominations are right, and which ones are wrong? Let me know when you all agree. Until then, your alleged god appears very weak, or non-existant: - - -
Kindly provide your evidence for that alleged weakness and/or non-existence simply based on lack of agreement about particulars. Please demonstrate how disagreements, misunderstandings, etc. among the believers and followers of God - an omnipotent omniscient God - would have any effect at all on God or His appearance.
That's your view. And there's thousands of Christian denominations, all with their own views of what makes a "True Christian". So which denominations are right, and which ones are wrong? Let me know when you all agree. Until then, your alleged god appears very weak, or non-existant: - - -
Kindly provide your evidence for that alleged weakness and/or non-existence simply based on lack of agreement about particulars. Please demonstrate how disagreements, misunderstandings, etc. among the believers and followers of God - an omnipotent omniscient God - would have any effect at all on God or His appearance.
CCCC,
If you actually think about it, the answer's in your question.
That's your view. And there's thousands of Christian denominations, all with their own views of what makes a "True Christian". So which denominations are right, and which ones are wrong? Let me know when you all agree. Until then, your alleged god appears very weak, or non-existant: - - -
Kindly provide your evidence for that alleged weakness and/or non-existence simply based on lack of agreement about particulars. Please demonstrate how disagreements, misunderstandings, etc. among the believers and followers of God - an omnipotent omniscient God - would have any effect at all on God or His appearance.
CCCC, If you actually think about it, the answer's in your question.
As usual, I did think about your post before replying, and such thinking led to my request.
You may believe that there is some answer in my questions, but that does not at all mean that others discern such answer. So, as you reply to my inquiry about your assessment of God's weakness, just try to stay with the theme you initiated - how does any confusion or disagreement among humans provide convincing evidence about the condition of a Supreme Being? Thanks.
People don't talk about God in the sense of an actual knowable being, something that you can examine and verify, but their own idea or concept of what a God may be like, where each believer is creating their own version of the concept of God in their own mind....
People don't talk about God in the sense of an actual knowable being, something that you can examine and verify, but their own idea or concept of what a God may be like, where each believer is creating their own version of the concept of God in their own mind....
This description very well may be true for some people.
Let me know when you all agree. Until then, your alleged god appears very weak, or non-existent.
As long as they agree that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead, and they accept God’s gift of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone, then they’re good to go. Period.
It is your argument that is weak.
That might be YOUR view, but that's not the view of all Christians.
The problem as l see it is that there have been billions of people who never heard of Jesus and now they are dead.
Let me know when you all agree. Until then, your alleged god appears very weak, or non-existent.
As long as they agree that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead, and they accept God’s gift of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone, then they’re good to go. Period.
It is your argument that is weak.
That might be YOUR view, but that's not the view of all Christians.
The problem as l see it is that there have been billions of people who never heard of Jesus and now they are dead.
Those people who never heard the gospel will be judged by the law of nature as seen in Romans chapter 1. God has placed knowledge of Himself in every human heart/mind, He has also placed eternity in every human heart/mind. "Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." If they acknowledged God as the Creator they will be saved, if they worshipped creature they will be damned.
In the book of Revelation 14:6 angel is proclaiming the everlasting Gospel. Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” If they worship the Creator they worship Christ because He is the Creator.
Just was looking through an old Calvin and Hobbes anthology. Came across one where Hobbes asks this very question. Calvin's response was, "Well, somebody's sure out to get me".
Let me know when you all agree. Until then, your alleged god appears very weak, or non-existent.
As long as they agree that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead, and they accept God’s gift of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone, then they’re good to go. Period.
It is your argument that is weak.
That might be YOUR view, but that's not the view of all Christians.
The problem as l see it is that there have been billions of people who never heard of Jesus and now they are dead.
Those people who never heard the gospel will be judged by the law of nature as seen in Romans chapter 1. God has placed knowledge of Himself in every human heart/mind, He has also placed eternity in every human heart/mind. "Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." If they acknowledged God as the Creator they will be saved, if they worshipped creature they will be damned.
In the book of Revelation 14:6 angel is proclaiming the everlasting Gospel. Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” If they worship the Creator they worship Christ because He is the Creator.
I don't see Romans 1 addressing the billions that have lived and died as ignorant savages through no fault of their own some of whom, perhaps most died as pre puberty children. And anyway that was Paul that allegedly wrote that with dubious authority.
And how does the quoted passage of The Revelation of Jesus Christ address the billions that have come and gone in the far flung regions of the earth.
Would it be your position that if they acknowledged a god as a creator they would be saved? It's a problem to understand.
Let me know when you all agree. Until then, your alleged god appears very weak, or non-existent.
As long as they agree that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead, and they accept God’s gift of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone, then they’re good to go. Period.
It is your argument that is weak.
That might be YOUR view, but that's not the view of all Christians.
The problem as l see it is that there have been billions of people who never heard of Jesus and now they are dead.
Those people who never heard the gospel will be judged by the law of nature as seen in Romans chapter 1. God has placed knowledge of Himself in every human heart/mind, He has also placed eternity in every human heart/mind. "Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." If they acknowledged God as the Creator they will be saved, if they worshipped creature they will be damned.
In the book of Revelation 14:6 angel is proclaiming the everlasting Gospel. Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” If they worship the Creator they worship Christ because He is the Creator.
I don't see Romans 1 addressing the billions that have lived and died as ignorant savages through no fault of their own some of whom, perhaps most died as pre puberty children. And anyway that was Paul that allegedly wrote that with dubious authority.
And how does the quoted passage of The Revelation of Jesus Christ address the billions that have come and gone in the far flung regions of the earth.
Would it be your position that if they acknowledged a god as a creator they would be saved? It's a problem to understand.
All those billions that lived and died without hearing about Christ through the gospel will be judged by the law of nature as mentioned in Rom 1, which simply means acknowledging and worshiping true God as the Creator, Rev 14 is another Scripture where people are addressed to worship the Creator and not the creature or the work of man's hands. That is why it is called eternal gospel, God is just and righteous and He made sure every human being has knowledge of God as the Creator, people have a choice to either acknowledge Him or chose to make up their own gods and worship them as we see happened throughout the ages. If by looking at nature/creation including themselves they acknowledge that God is the one who created them and sustains them then they will be saved on the day of judgment, if on the other hand they ignored all the evidence of God in themselves and nature around them and worshipped heathen gods they will be lost. But all those who did hear the gospel and rejected it will be damned, they will be judged for rejecting the gospel unlike those who never heard the gospel.
People don't talk about God in the sense of an actual knowable being, something that you can examine and verify, but their own idea or concept of what a God may be like, where each believer is creating their own version of the concept of God in their own mind....
This description very well may be true for some people.
Yet each and every believer assumes they are right and that the others are wrong. Everybody cannot be right.
People don't talk about God in the sense of an actual knowable being, something that you can examine and verify, but their own idea or concept of what a God may be like, where each believer is creating their own version of the concept of God in their own mind....
This description very well may be true for some people.
Yet each and every believer assumes they are right and that the others are wrong. Everybody cannot be right.
By what magical power (please describe) are you able to personally know what every believer assumes in that regard? How did you acquire that power?
Why don't you have a discussion about the fact that sure evidence for one individual may not serve as any evidence for another, and the forever subjectivity of that matter. It might illuminate the futility of these puerile yakking matches.
Evidence supports a claim that all can agree concurs with reality - it's not subjective. Belief in a god has no evidence and is divorced from reality, and is entirely subjective - thousands of Christian denominations are evidence of this fact and reality. Here endeth this lesson.
Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree.
Bingo, my point exactly. No evidence therefore anything goes. My god is better than your god...yadda, yadda, yadda... Reality not required, LOL!!!
You put the BINGO squarely on yourself and highlight the usual disingenuous behavior by deliberately omitting the part of the post that you apparently wish ignored. Here is the whole thing - again:
"Your first statement there is quite faulty. Your use of "all" is a gross assumption based on zero evidence of that factor. What is evidence to you may not be evidence to another, etc.. Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree. Further, there need not be any such "claim" in order for one to experience evidence. Claims seem to be the action of those who wish to prove some point of view or secure a corner on some claimed reality. Objectivity is not created by such claims, or by your sentence."
Your befuddlement with the idea of what evidence is, is quite disappointing and I feel bad for you. The Dunning Kruger effect has settled deep within your brain I'm afraid. Think about this - evidence cannot support multiple explanations, it can only be evidence for one true reality. The word you are thinking about is "observations" and from which any old crap can be made up as explanation in lieu of the actual explanation ie all religions claim observations as evidence. However, the observation becomes evidence once the true reality-based explanation is uncovered. Religion is not a true reality and therefore can be discounted. Here endith this lesson - amen.
Why don't you have a discussion about the fact that sure evidence for one individual may not serve as any evidence for another, and the forever subjectivity of that matter. It might illuminate the futility of these puerile yakking matches.
Evidence supports a claim that all can agree concurs with reality - it's not subjective. Belief in a god has no evidence and is divorced from reality, and is entirely subjective - thousands of Christian denominations are evidence of this fact and reality. Here endeth this lesson.
Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree.
Bingo, my point exactly. No evidence therefore anything goes. My god is better than your god...yadda, yadda, yadda... Reality not required, LOL!!!
You put the BINGO squarely on yourself and highlight the usual disingenuous behavior by deliberately omitting the part of the post that you apparently wish ignored. Here is the whole thing - again:
"Your first statement there is quite faulty. Your use of "all" is a gross assumption based on zero evidence of that factor. What is evidence to you may not be evidence to another, etc.. Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree. Further, there need not be any such "claim" in order for one to experience evidence. Claims seem to be the action of those who wish to prove some point of view or secure a corner on some claimed reality. Objectivity is not created by such claims, or by your sentence."
Your befuddlement with the idea of what evidence is, is quite disappointing and I feel bad for you. The Dunning Kruger effect has settled deep within your brain I'm afraid. Think about this - evidence cannot support multiple explanations, it can only be evidence for one true reality. The word you are thinking about is "observations" and from which any old crap can be made up as explanation in lieu of the actual explanation ie all religions claim observations as evidence. However, the observation becomes evidence once the true reality-based explanation is uncovered. Religion is not a true reality and therefore can be discounted. Here endith this lesson - amen.
Here you are - embarrassed by the exposure of your emptiness. Your falsity and disingenuous efforts there are almost laughable. No thinking person in this entire thread is "befuddled" about the nature of evidence. The joke is that you have a personal need to be able to identify someone as befuddled so you can then try to wax eloquent on the matter of evidence - a commodity greatly lacking in your case. You are fooling no one with those tactics - except maybe yourself. Save your grief for your own sad case. And, the OZ schools did a poor job with your spelling.
Uh what? Chocolate or vanilla is a matter of opinion not an objective truth. I shall ask again, is truth subjective or objective?
Nope. I like chocolate better than vanilla is a true statement. But it's subject to my personal tastes and preferences, so it's a subjective, not an objective truth.
You may not like the fact that all truths are not objective, but it doesn't change that fact.
I like chocolate better than vanilla is a true statement. But it's subject to my personal tastes and preferences, so it's a subjective, not an objective truth. You may not like the fact that all truths are not objective, but it doesn't change that fact.
Uh what? Chocolate or vanilla is a matter of opinion not an objective truth. I shall ask again, is truth subjective or objective?
Nope. I like chocolate better than vanilla is a true statement. But it's subject to my personal tastes and preferences, so it's a subjective, not an objective truth.
You may not like the fact that all truths are not objective, but it doesn't change that fact.
Yes your opinion may be a true statement of opinion but the question stands; is truth subjective or objective? Put another way, is truth not a universal, objective fact unlike one’s personally held opinion? I hold that truth is objectively so. If not then truth has no meaning and there is only relativism and subjectivity. I direct you to Plato’s forms. The point being what is the source of objective truth? It is not man made therefore it is other than man made. Man measures his experience against objective truth. Objective truth can thus only come from the source which is God.
Uh what? Chocolate or vanilla is a matter of opinion not an objective truth. I shall ask again, is truth subjective or objective?
Nope. I like chocolate better than vanilla is a true statement. But it's subject to my personal tastes and preferences, so it's a subjective, not an objective truth.
You may not like the fact that all truths are not objective, but it doesn't change that fact.
Yes your opinion may be a true statement of opinion but the question stands; is truth subjective or objective? Put another way, is truth not a universal, objective fact unlike one’s personally held opinion? I hold that truth is objectively so. If not then truth has no meaning and there is only relativism and subjectivity. I direct you to Plato’s forms. The point being what is the source of objective truth? It is not man made therefore it is other than man made. Man measures his experience against objective truth. Objective truth can thus only come from the source which is God.
Nope.
A rock is a rock. A rock is not a potato. In this question god(s) is completely irrelevant.
Why don't you have a discussion about the fact that sure evidence for one individual may not serve as any evidence for another, and the forever subjectivity of that matter. It might illuminate the futility of these puerile yakking matches.
Evidence supports a claim that all can agree concurs with reality - it's not subjective. Belief in a god has no evidence and is divorced from reality, and is entirely subjective - thousands of Christian denominations are evidence of this fact and reality. Here endeth this lesson.
Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree.
Bingo, my point exactly. No evidence therefore anything goes. My god is better than your god...yadda, yadda, yadda... Reality not required, LOL!!!
You put the BINGO squarely on yourself and highlight the usual disingenuous behavior by deliberately omitting the part of the post that you apparently wish ignored. Here is the whole thing - again:
"Your first statement there is quite faulty. Your use of "all" is a gross assumption based on zero evidence of that factor. What is evidence to you may not be evidence to another, etc.. Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree. Further, there need not be any such "claim" in order for one to experience evidence. Claims seem to be the action of those who wish to prove some point of view or secure a corner on some claimed reality. Objectivity is not created by such claims, or by your sentence."
Your befuddlement with the idea of what evidence is, is quite disappointing and I feel bad for you. The Dunning Kruger effect has settled deep within your brain I'm afraid. Think about this - evidence cannot support multiple explanations, it can only be evidence for one true reality. The word you are thinking about is "observations" and from which any old crap can be made up as explanation in lieu of the actual explanation ie all religions claim observations as evidence. However, the observation becomes evidence once the true reality-based explanation is uncovered. Religion is not a true reality and therefore can be discounted. Here endith this lesson - amen.
Here you are - embarrassed by the exposure of your emptiness. Your falsity and disingenuous efforts there are almost laughable. No thinking person in this entire thread is "befuddled" about the nature of evidence. The joke is that you have a personal need to be able to identify someone as befuddled so you can then try to wax eloquent on the matter of evidence - a commodity greatly lacking in your case. You are fooling no one with those tactics - except maybe yourself. Save your grief for your own sad case. And, the OZ schools did a poor job with your spelling.
LOL!!! There there...I laugh as you remind me a lot of Raspy, who was also profoundly afflicted with the inability to understand what evidence is - you two should get together and do some consolidated research to try to achieve some glimmer of enlightenment on the topic. Maybe then you won't feel the need to be a blithering moron - just saying...it's worth a shot...
Here’s the world’s most prominent atheist, Richard Dawkins…admitting to Intelligent Design…just as long as the Designer isn't God.
Only if you misconstrue his intent. He said he didn't know, he said that we don't know, then went on to speculate. Which he should not have done. The answer to how life first formed is: we don't know. But we do know that once life did get a foothold it went on to adapt and evolve.
Nor does 'we don't know' lead to 'therefore God did it.'
Why don't you have a discussion about the fact that sure evidence for one individual may not serve as any evidence for another, and the forever subjectivity of that matter. It might illuminate the futility of these puerile yakking matches.
Evidence supports a claim that all can agree concurs with reality - it's not subjective. Belief in a god has no evidence and is divorced from reality, and is entirely subjective - thousands of Christian denominations are evidence of this fact and reality. Here endeth this lesson.
Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree.
Bingo, my point exactly. No evidence therefore anything goes. My god is better than your god...yadda, yadda, yadda... Reality not required, LOL!!!
You put the BINGO squarely on yourself and highlight the usual disingenuous behavior by deliberately omitting the part of the post that you apparently wish ignored. Here is the whole thing - again:
"Your first statement there is quite faulty. Your use of "all" is a gross assumption based on zero evidence of that factor. What is evidence to you may not be evidence to another, etc.. Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree. Further, there need not be any such "claim" in order for one to experience evidence. Claims seem to be the action of those who wish to prove some point of view or secure a corner on some claimed reality. Objectivity is not created by such claims, or by your sentence."
Your befuddlement with the idea of what evidence is, is quite disappointing and I feel bad for you. The Dunning Kruger effect has settled deep within your brain I'm afraid. Think about this - evidence cannot support multiple explanations, it can only be evidence for one true reality. The word you are thinking about is "observations" and from which any old crap can be made up as explanation in lieu of the actual explanation ie all religions claim observations as evidence. However, the observation becomes evidence once the true reality-based explanation is uncovered. Religion is not a true reality and therefore can be discounted. Here endith this lesson - amen.
Here you are - embarrassed by the exposure of your emptiness. Your falsity and disingenuous efforts there are almost laughable. No thinking person in this entire thread is "befuddled" about the nature of evidence. The joke is that you have a personal need to be able to identify someone as befuddled so you can then try to wax eloquent on the matter of evidence - a commodity greatly lacking in your case. You are fooling no one with those tactics - except maybe yourself. Save your grief for your own sad case. And, the OZ schools did a poor job with your spelling.
LOL!!! There there...I laugh as you remind me a lot of Raspy, who was also profoundly afflicted with the inability to understand what evidence is - you two should get together and do some consolidated research to try to achieve some glimmer of enlightenment on the topic. Maybe then you won't feel the need to be a blithering moron - just saying...it's worth a shot...
So, you went to hide for a while after your bad exposure due to evidence failure, and now try to sneak back in for some "last word" nonsense. Nice try. After that embarrassment, there is no recovery. Falsity is falsity. Fail is fail. You can't undo the damage now by proposing some ludicrous activity and reverting to basic name-calling. Who on earth would need advice on learning and ethics from your phony type?
My Father never ever influenced me and I didn't know about his beliefs until 16-17 years old. My folks are both 88 and are Highschool sweethearts and have been married 69 years. My Father has always supported her on everything.![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/zvXmtz40/Screenshot-20240311-231845-Chrome-3.jpg)
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What the heck???
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