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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
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Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you. When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator. Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you. To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler. How many of you have "seen" co2? You believe it is real, you believe that plants need it, You believe that it causes "global warming". So here we have a man telling us that something invisible is real, Is this guy a scientist or a Pastor? Um, Yeah I've seen CO2. It's called dry ice in its solid form and easily visible. If you Christers had paid attention in 9th grade science class you wouldn't be saying such silly things. If you paid attention you would have known that was actually water vapor. Dry ice = water vapor? Are you really this scientifically illiterate? Did you try the experiment where you seal yourself in the garage and run your car engine all night to see if CO exists?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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When you intentionally misquote what was said (like you clearly did) in order to support your position, then your position is a weak position. "I don't know therefore GOD" "It's beyond my comprehension therefore GOD." "It's so wonderous therefore GOD." "Science is too hard for me to understand therefore GOD." How every you want to paraphrase it they are all bad arguments. All science pivots on the big bang, Which is far harder to believe than a divine creator. You do not need religion to understand God. Ok, if you say so. Ummm, Give me one real factoid proving the bigbang, Im listening. If you can give evidence of this big bang, I will change teams. It's already been mentioned, but here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_backgroundBut let me warn you, since you don't know the difference between dry ice and water vapor, this might be a little advanced for you.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
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Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. Yes He did. Clearly. And His disciples “worshipped” Him because He was God. And they knew it. It depends on which gospel you read.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
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Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. Yes He did. Clearly. And His disciples “worshipped” Him because He was God. And they knew it. YOU think about it. Honestly for a change. He is thinking about it honestly, and in all likely hood, so are you. If he focuses more of the book of Mark, and you focus on the book of John, you'll have very different perspectives on Jesus.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
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Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. Yes He did. Clearly. And His disciples “worshipped” Him because He was God. And they knew it. It depends on which gospel you read. That is why the High Priest was so enraged when he said..... Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Powerl and coming with the clouds of heaven.” 63At this, the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “Why do we need any more witnesses? 64You have heard the blasphemy. What is your verdict?” And they all condemned Him as deserving of death. In Old Testament writings only GOD came 'riding on a cloud' They knew what HE said......
Last edited by Muffin; 03/30/24.
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
( . Y . )
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. Yes He did. Clearly. And His disciples “worshipped” Him because He was God. And they knew it. It's complicated to me. Some verses make a distinction. - “If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.” Jn. 14:28. - “ I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.” Jn. 15:1-2. - “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mt 24:36; see also Mk. 13:32. Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 seem to suggest that Jesus (“the Son”) is distinct from God because even Jesus will not know of his own second coming ahead of time. If so, this seems to distinguish the Son and the Father as having different levels of knowledge and power. Yes, the theology evolved over time. Mark was written first, and the Jesus of Mark if very different from the Jesus of John.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
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Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. Yes He did. Clearly. And His disciples “worshipped” Him because He was God. And they knew it. It's complicated to me. Some verses make a distinction. - “If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.” Jn. 14:28. - “ I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.” Jn. 15:1-2. - “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mt 24:36; see also Mk. 13:32. Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 seem to suggest that Jesus (“the Son”) is distinct from God because even Jesus will not know of his own second coming ahead of time. If so, this seems to distinguish the Son and the Father as having different levels of knowledge and power. DID not know at the time. Doesn't mean that HE would NEVER know. HE did know enough to mention the specific 'generation'............ Yes, the theology evolved over time. Mark was written first, and the Jesus of Mark if very different from the Jesus of John. Or was 'seen' differently by different men of different backgrounds....
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
( . Y . )
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Campfire Regular
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You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe. Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes. It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble. It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army. Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God. I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary. I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me". Here we go yet again… John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus. When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14. If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24 How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21 How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22 How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51 How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54 How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30 How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25 If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life. You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse. No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice. There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64 Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40 There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6 The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23 And that is only the book of John…
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
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Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. Yes He did. Clearly. And His disciples “worshipped” Him because He was God. And they knew it. It's complicated to me. Some verses make a distinction. - “If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.” Jn. 14:28. - “ I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.” Jn. 15:1-2. - “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mt 24:36; see also Mk. 13:32. Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 seem to suggest that Jesus (“the Son”) is distinct from God because even Jesus will not know of his own second coming ahead of time. If so, this seems to distinguish the Son and the Father as having different levels of knowledge and power. DID not know at the time. Doesn't mean that HE would NEVER know. HE did know enough to mention the specific 'generation'............ Yes, the theology evolved over time. Mark was written first, and the Jesus of Mark if very different from the Jesus of John. Or was 'seen' differently by different men of different backgrounds.... No. The are different narratives, with different messages, with a different main characters of the same name.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Posts: 450 Likes: 1
Campfire Member
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Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you. When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator. Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you. To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler. How many of you have "seen" co2? You believe it is real, you believe that plants need it, You believe that it causes "global warming". So here we have a man telling us that something invisible is real, Is this guy a scientist or a Pastor? Um, Yeah I've seen CO2. It's called dry ice in its solid form and easily visible. If you Christers had paid attention in 9th grade science class you wouldn't be saying such silly things. If you paid attention you would have known that was actually water vapor. Ladies and Gentlemen, I rest my case.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2008
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Christians keep telling me the most important thing about their religion is belief. Faith based belief in their one true God. Not how you live your life. Not how you treat others. Those things can all be forgiven. Belief is the thing God most needs from you. When you see the word ‘believe’ in the New Testament, it comes from a Greek word that means a whole lot more than just believing something in your mind. It means ‘to put your trust and confidence in.’ In Jesus. For salvation, to be reconciled to your Creator. Then, since your sin is now paid for, go and live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you. To 'believe' is to be convinced that what you believe is true and factual. Aside from social conditioning where the religion you grew up with, be it Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, what some folks consider to be evidence or find convincing is the stickler. How many of you have "seen" co2? You believe it is real, you believe that plants need it, You believe that it causes "global warming". So here we have a man telling us that something invisible is real, Is this guy a scientist or a Pastor? Um, Yeah I've seen CO2. It's called dry ice in its solid form and easily visible. If you Christers had paid attention in 9th grade science class you wouldn't be saying such silly things. If you paid attention you would have known that was actually water vapor. Frozen CO2 can be visible, in the form of "dry ice" - and as it warms it sublimates to the gaseous form. This comes up somewhere in Chem 1. Please explain the nature and content of "water vapor".
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe. Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes. It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble. It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army. Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God. I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary. I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me". Here we go yet again… John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus. When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14. If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24 How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21 How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22 How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51 How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54 How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30 How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25 If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life. You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse. No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice. There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64 Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40 There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6 The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23 And that is only the book of John… Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition? Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying. And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also. All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe. Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes. It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble. It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army. Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God. I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary. I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me". Here we go yet again… John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus. When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14. If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24 How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21 How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22 How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51 How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54 How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30 How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25 If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life. You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse. No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice. There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64 Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40 There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6 The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23 And that is only the book of John… Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition? Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying. And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also. All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that. If you think about it, just the fact that the NT was written in Greek, more specifically a high form of Greek is a major problem in and of itself.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,298 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
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You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe. Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes. It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble. It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army. Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God. I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary. I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me". Here we go yet again… John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus. When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14. If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24 How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21 How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22 How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51 How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54 How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30 How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25 If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life. You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse. No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice. There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64 Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40 There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6 The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23 And that is only the book of John… Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition? Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying. And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also. All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that. If you think about it, just the fact that the NT was written in Greek, more specifically a high form of Greek is a major problem in and of itself. A 'high' form?? Curious, what was the 'common' language????..... HINT!
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
( . Y . )
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,010 Likes: 2 |
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe. Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes. It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble. It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army. Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God. I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary. I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me". Here we go yet again… John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus. When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14. If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24 How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21 How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22 How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51 How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54 How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30 How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25 If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life. You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse. No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice. There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64 Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40 There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6 The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23 And that is only the book of John… Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition? Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying. And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also. All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that. If you think about it, just the fact that the NT was written in Greek, more specifically a high form of Greek is a major problem in and of itself. A 'high' form?? Curious, what was the 'common' language????..... HINT! Glad I didn't have to spell it out for you.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,092
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,092 |
You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe. Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes. It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble. It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army. Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God. I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary. I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me". Here we go yet again… John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus. When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14. If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24 How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21 How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22 How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51 How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54 How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30 How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25 If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life. You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse. No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice. There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64 Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40 There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6 The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23 And that is only the book of John… Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition? Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying. And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also. All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that. I’ve noticed you continue to reject Jesus and His Word. You obviously don’t believe what Jesus taught when He said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father except through me” (Jesus), John 14:6 Salvation is found through no one else, for there is no name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved, Acts 4:12 There is only one way to God—through Jesus Christ, our Savior and Lord.
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 60,955 Likes: 17
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 60,955 Likes: 17 |
These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
"May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,123 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,123 Likes: 6 |
White Tail48: I think you misapprehend my beliefs. I do not reject Jesus or his words. Wabigoon: Amen. That is as true today as it was for Saul, King David, Nebuchadnezzar, and the thief crucified with Jesus.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,123 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,123 Likes: 6 |
A/S: Bad news. I'm back on ignore with my boy Snoopy. I didn't think I was being confrontational.
I like discussions that make me think and I like to mentally attack my own beliefs and assumptions. It has not for a long time seemed to me a good idea to stake out a position and refuse to consider it doesn't make sense.
A Southern Baptist lady friend of ours called me recently and invited me to come to her church. I told her I wouldn't fit in well there due to drinking 6 or 7 beers a week and the fact that I wasn't Trinitarian and also I believed some of the NT was forged. She told me right quick that she wasn't going to have to stand before Jesus some day and explain why she did not believe parts of his holy book.
We are still friends and are politically aligned but the church invitation subject was dropped and I don't believe the beer had any part in that.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,424 Likes: 4
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,424 Likes: 4 |
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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