Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats .257 WSM

Hello to all, newbie here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I was referd to here from another site and the guy knows who he is and i say thank you. ok here goes:

I am looking into in the next year or so into building a really killer Ultra light rifle. My goal is a rifle between 5 and 5.5 lbs.. I have considerd having Christenson Arms do the Carbon wrapping on the barrel with a titanium muzzle break. I wonder if that would be lighter than a fluted Stainless barrel in a hunting type desighn??? I have looked at several factory guns in the .270 WSM and out of all of them my favorite sounding one is the Kimber 8400 montana. That gun weighs in at 6.2 lbs. have the barrel wrapped or fluted and i might get close. here is the kicker though, I would really like to get a wildcat made that would be a .257 WSM Made to shoot the 100gr Barnes TSX moly'd. I already have a .257 Weatherby that I love but I dont think I could build one that would be that light.

You guys on here know a heck of alot more about this than I do. Would you please give me suggestions on what you would do to build(I should say have built) a gun like what i am looking for and who to do it. I am not rich so this is not the Ultimate bank breaking project so please keep that in mind. If you know af another wildcat that would be easier and give me simular perfornce I am open to suggestions.

P.S. What has been your experiences with the Quality and performance of Kimber rifles?

Charlie Sisk. I checked out your sight last night and I like the looks of your guns. Would you have any suggestions on this? I didnt realise you were a poster here.

Common guys anyone have an idea on this?

Thanks

Demonstw:



Welcome to the fire, I think you'll be glad you sat in.....meaning, this can be an expensive stump to sit on......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



There are some questions in your post that could spur considerable very opinionated debate. Without adressing those, I'll give you a very simple formula to achieve what you want. This will be for the custom route in the wildcat 257 WSM (or other) caliber.



Additional thought on the caliber question, you may get some opinions about "build this instead, build that instead"....yadda yadda yadda. Don't worry about that, any of the short 25's will do great for what you have in mind, just build the one you (want).



I assume that when you say 5-5.5 lb, you mean without scope. This is easily do-able. 5.5 lb. or less (with) scope is do-able too, but not easy. You are correct, you probably cannot build a 257 wby for this weight (although you might get closer than you think)



Acquire a Rem 700 ADL short action rifle in whatever caliber you can find cheapest. This can be used at a pawn shop or new from Wal-mart or whatever. This will cost you about $300 - $375 The action from this rifle will be the basis for your rifle.



Action:.....................32 oz.............~~$325

#1 barrel @ 24"......35 oz.............~~$475 (specify 1.5" shank length)

Stock:......................22oz..............~~$230 from HiTech (Bansner) unfinished, but with pad.



This gets you to 5 lb. 9 oz. without stock bedding or paint.



I suggest the following lightweight, high performance parts..........Tubb speedlock firing pin, davidsons alloy bolt shroud, aluminum ADL triggerguard, Rifle Basiks trigger. These will cost about $200-$225 and will save a total of nearly 5 oz. getting you down to about ~~ 5 lb. 4 oz.



If you go back through the custom rifles forum you will find many threads on the subject, much debate, and some additional ideas/opinions. Do some homework, all the info you need is on this forum in the last 1-5 months



One such is a DIY foam rubber recoil pad that will save at least 3 oz. (Your pet gunsmith has likely never heard of one of these)



Another is to buy a Rem Ti rifle and have it rebarreled. If you use the lightweight parts suggested in the "Lunatic Fringe" and other Ti threads, you will hit the weight you want and won't have to deal with stock work.



Misc. opinions from me...............................



Kimber rifles, quality is open to debate. I suggest you might stay away from any new offering from them for a while. Their record has not been good at first with new products.



Ti brake...........no reason on a 25 cal.



Carbon barrel..........suggest you call carbonbarrels.com and ask about your project, look for the ad banner at the top of the indexes. Mike is very professional and helpful, he also knows his stuff.



Good luck and good reading..........



JimF

Try www.shortmags.com there has been a lot of discussion about the 257 WSM over there with several shooters having them already.

Welcome aboard.

First off, if you mean 5 to 5.25 pounds all up, you're talking specialty stuff. Search for posts by JimF.

If you mean that weight for the rifle only, say 6 pounds all up, that is eminently doable. I saw a Christensen carbon barrel built on a 700 Titanium at SHOT this year that was absolutely a feather. The kicker, pun fully intended, is that it was chambered in .300 Weatherby. Eek!

If you want someone to build you a rifle, I cannot give enough praise to Charlie Sisk. He has built three for me, with a fourth on the way. The fourth is right up your alley, but before I give you specs, I want to touch upon your caliber choice as it relates to weight.

You do realize that a case with the powder capacity of a WSM, even a .257, in that light a rifle is going to kick like hell, right? It's gonna be tough enough to shoot it with that lack of weight, without even factoring in the recoil. Also, a light rifle and a long barrel aren't usually compatible. Although tests done by our own Charlie Sisk and published by Wayne Van Zwoll (who cited Charlie) as well as tests done by John Barsness (Mule Deer around here) strongly suggest that barrel length does not affect velocity as much as many believe, conventional wisdom still says that you need some barrel length to burn all that powder. In a .257 WSM, I'd think 24" is about as short as I'd go. Imagine a .257 Weatherby (very similar powder capacity to the .257 WSM) on a 23" barrel????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> On a project where weight was not the paramount concern, I'd happily go 26" or even 27" on a .257 WSM.

Now, my lightweight is based on a Remington 660 action, which is pretty much the lightest production action made in steel, and until the Titanium 700's, the Holy Grail of this type of project. After much thought and consideration, plus a healthy dose of conversation with Charlie, I settled on a .308 Winchester, 21" #2 contour Lilja that Charlie is going to octagon for weight savings (and aesthetics). I considered the WSM's briefly, but:

1] There have been feeding issues. I'll leave that one there.

2] Rem doesn't make the Titanium in the magnum boltface, or at least they didn't the last time I checked.

3] 660's built in .350 RemMag (which would have the correct boltface) command a premium.

4] I didn't want a longish barrel on this one, nor the unnecessary recoil.


I almost went with a straight .284 Winchester, but the .308 edged it out on a few fronts for me.

Now, having said all that, I think what you need to see is what we affectionately call a "Big Stick Special" around here. Eremicus has one I've seen, handled and shot, and I believe it makes weight, or easily could with a few minor swaps. It' a beaut! The "BS Special" is a .25-284 wildcat built on a 600 with a blind magazine, a McMillan stock with light fill (consider a Bansner for even more weight savings) a Leupold scope, and my choice for rings would be the Talley LW's.

With a Leupold VXIII 2.5-8x36 or M8 6x42 (both 11.5 oz.) and the Talley LW's (2 oz), you "spend" 13.5 oz for a top-quality optics setup. A Bansner short-forend stock should come in at a pound and a half, the action 31 oz, and then you get to figure the barrel weight. Check JimF's last post on the barrel weight formula. I'd put on a 22-23" #1, and bed her to the tip of the forend.

The boys get 3300+ with 100-grain XLC's. Your XXX/moly should be right there. You check the trajectory on that, and it's a 350-yard rifle eaassyyy. Holding it still enough will be the challenge, especially beyond that range.

For an ultralight in 25, that's a hell of a rig!!!

Rick

Ahhh, I see the boys have chimed in while I was writing.

Please be aware that there is no going back once you get bit by this bug. You might consider this before it's too late.

Rick

To further what the Rick's have said, their isn't a cheep way to build a light rifle. Another possibility is a .25-06 Ackley improved. You can buy a standard Remington Ti rifle in .25-06 and have it reamed out to the Ackley version. This will be the cheepest way to go and probably still have the strongest settup. Velocity will be right at what the .25 WSM provides and will feed better. I personally would build a light .25-284. I have one and another on the drawing boards. Mine has a 26 inch barrel and it fetches 3,400 fps with 100 grain Hornadys and 3,500 with Barnes 100 grain XLC's. I have killed a truck load of game with both bullets and I LOVE this cartridge. It feeds perfectly and has very little recoil. Flinch

DemonSTW:

It seems that caliber choice is the most personal and emotional issue involved in coming up with a rifle recipie. For some reason, as soon as folks start thinking about light rifles, they often visualize shooting a Stone Sheep @ 1/2 a mile across a windswept glacier. Therefore they come in with their heart set on a "magnum" of some new sexy flavor.

I think the reality is, that shooting ranges are still 200 yds or less for 95% of what we all hunt. I have hunted high rough country (mostly with a backpack on) for over 30 years and have never had to try a 400 yd shot. The well known writer John Barnsness has written to the effect that he has shot game at 400+ yds only a very few times out of what I'm guessing is several hundred head of game.

Although I brushed off the caliber question in my first reply, I do agree with Rick that a more moderate caliber matches best with really light rifles. I have built quite a number of these and all are on either 308 or 284 derived cases. I don't care for long (ish) barrels and so have settled upon 21" as my formula. My personal take is that anything between .25 and 7mm or even up to .30 on one of the smaller cases makes a very nice combo in an ultralight.

Having said all that, follow your heart on the caliber choice. Get the thing that you really (want) because that will make you happiest.

JimF

A Ti in 25-06?? Do you know something we all don't??

JimF

260 Rem.
270 Win.
7mm-08 Rem.
30-06 Sprg
308 Win.
Here are your choices if you want a M700 Titanium--No .257 cal anywhere on the list....

WOW guys I am in awe of your willingness to help a guy out. Thank you very much.

Like I said in my post the caliber isnt as big of a concern as it is performance. I want it to be a .257 reguardless. I have not really seen a .284 before so I am not familur with the case. But i have read that number a ton on here so it must be a worthy cartridge. I really like the sound of the 25-06 AI as well. I thought about that one a long time ago. I had a 25-06 and I absolutly kick myself everytime I think about the day I traded it towards my STW. I love my STW but I should have saved my money a bit longer and just bought the STW instead of the trade.

I know these guns will kick like the dickens so that is why it will have a break on it reguardless if it causes me a few oz. .

Now here is something to consider. I think I have the action needed already. I dont know if this is considerd the short action or if this is even smaller but I have a .243 win. in the 700 BDL. The gun is just collecting dust so it is available for use and would be free since I already have it LOL. What would this action work with? Actually this gun is what spurd me to wanting to do something. I have my STW(which is a Sako TRGS) that is my main hunting rifle and this gun is intended to be its backup and rifle to use when hiking or bushwacking is required. I just didnt think I could get out of the action the performance I was wanting.

I hunt the hugh country in Wyoming and have hunted the same area 14 years streight and my dad has hunted it 30 years now. 300-400 yard shots are very common, I would say 50/50 with those under 200. My dad shoots a .257 Weatherby(my gun but I dont get it till he is done hunting LOL) for this reason as well. I have ranged a few one shot kills he has taken and the longest were 628 yards and 583 yards. See the shots are often from one ridge to another as the Elk move through the timber. Stocking for a closer shot is often out of the question. If possible you can bet we do it. We spend alot of time on the shooting range and know our rifles ablity very well. I think we were born with a natural ablity to shoot very good as there is not a person in the family I wouldnt consider a near marksman. Anyways just rambling there. sorry.

Well considering this, what do you think now? If this wont work I am very much considering the 700TI in the 25-06 and have it reamed to the AI. I think that would be the cheapest route. but maybe not, the prices you have shown seam to be very reasonable.

Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Demon:



Couple of things............



The 243 action is a perfect donor so you are on your way for free.............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



The action will fit a WSM or a 284 derived cartridge. Both are good.....follow your heart here, but I'd personally do the 25/284 in a 22-23" bbl.



Personal opinion: Don't do a brake, the recoil here with the 100 gr bullets in a 6 lb rifle will be about equal to a 7 Rem mag with 140 gr bullets in an 8.5 lb. rifle. You don't need a brake for that.



The action does not fit a 25-06.



The Remington Ti in 25-06 does not exist. (never has).



If these incredibly long shots are made with the aid of a rangefinder......then the extra 100-200 fps out of the WSM case won't matter. Once you are holding or correcting for 4-6 FEET of drop, the 5" drop advantage of the extra velocity is meaningless.



Just curious......do you hold over or "click correct" for these long shots? If you hold over, what is your reference for say 5 feet of drop?? If you "click correct" do you count the 240 individual clicks or go by number of dial turns??



If those incredibly long shots are made without the aid of a rangefinder.......................well....................you guys are the best I've ever heard of.



JimF

I am sure the 700 rifle I handle in Ti was a .25-06. I handled a lot of them, so maybe it was a .30-06. Who knows, but I am sure big green will have other calibers very soon. Flinch

I would do the .25-284 in a heartbeat and shoot nothing but 100 grain Barnes XLC bullets.

Jim, I am gonna run across the street and see what that Ti 700 was. Flinch

I just ran across the street and checked out that 700 Ti. It was a .30-06, not a .25-06. Sorry for my mistake. They currently make it in .308, .30-06, 7mm-08 and .270. A 7mm-08 punched to .284 would be cool! The short actions weigh 5.25 lbs. and the long actions weigh 5.50. All have 22 inch barrels. Flinch

Let me get this straight....you're looking for a ltwt 25-caliber rifle that will allow you to take shots out to 600 yards on elk <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> What weight bullet do you plan to use? I'm also curious what the retained energy would be at that range even with the big 257 Weatherby.

I don't care if you're family tree includes Daniel Boone, Annie Oakley and Sgt York, that's irresponsible behavior in the field and I suspect you wound and don't recover (or even know you hit) more elk than you shoot and tag. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Bill,

600 yard shot at an elk with a 100 grain bullet ???

Eeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkksssssssssss !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

XLC or not, I agree, 100 grain bullet : not alot of retained energy, not much room for error, especially with ANY wind.

No thanks, I'll stick to my 300 RUM.

Tony.

DemonSTW
Call me boring, but let me tell you about the last "light weight" project I built.
Remington 700 short Titanium action
# 3 Lilja at 22 inches
High Tech stock
1 inch Pac Dec recoil pad
Talley rings & bases steel
3 x 9 Swarovski 1 inch tube
308 Winchester caliber
Finished rifle was 6 3\4 pounds and shot very well...in the 3's and 4's with 165 Ballistic Tips
I think you would be hard pressed to find a better light weight all around rifle....It took a long time to drill that into our great webmaster's head... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Charlie

Ok, I ran the ballistics in my ballistics program, it stops at 500 yards, but with a 100 TSX, 3400 muzzle, it shows 1200 ft-lbs at 500 yards, at 600 it might be under 1000 ft-lbs.

With only a 10mph cross wind, there is 17" of drift at 500 yards.

On the other hand, my 300 RUM with a 180 Swift Scir starting out at 3300 hits with 2330 ft lbs @ 500 yards and has 13.8" of wind drift @ 500 with a 10 mph wind.

BTW, I killed a 6x6 bull with that very load at a LRF verified 448 yards.

Tony.

Demon:

You have a fair idea of what you "want" Ie an ultralight rifle in a hot 25 cal. That's a nice useful thing to have.

There are good ways for you to get there starting from what you have. (243 action)

I'd suggest that you build what you want. Just realize what it can do really well, and what it shouldn't try to do.

Probably those 600 yd shots (at anything) fall into the "shouldn't try it" category.

JimF