Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 45-70 GG, bullet ? for elk

I just picked up a Guide Gun in 45-70. I have 3 more days until elk opens and have 3 bullets to choose from.
The factory 325 grain LEVERevolution is scary accurate, but I don't have any knowledge on them. I also have 300 grain HornadyHP and 350 grain Hornady FP that I can load up. The 300 grain HP's seem very accurate as well.( both out of my rifle)
I will be hunting in heavy brush and don't feel like tracking too much. Which would you use for short to medium range elk?
Thanks
Jim

Took my 45/70 with me elk hunting but didn't find any shootable elk. Dropped down in elevation and shot a pronghorn with it at 250 yds using the 325 gr LeverEvolution ammo. It let the air out of him rather quickly. WOuldn't be afraid to poke an elk with it and hope to soon.

I am not sure that the 300 grain hollow point is an elk bullet, I am not sure that it is not either. It would probably get the job done. Of the other two load up either one and shoot with confidence. Only the elk will have a problem with either bullet.

8mmwapiti

IF you are going to use a 300 grain bullet, keep the Speer Unicore in mind.

I shot some 300 gr Winchester factory HP bullets at a bunch of metal oil drums and was AMAZED with the penetration. Completely penetrated three drums, and tore a 5" cut in the on side of the fourth drum -- lead was inside the fourth drum, jacket on the outside. Wouldn't have expected that kind of penetration from a HP.

I would bet the leverlotion stuff will work but I am using a Hornady FP over 59grains of varget. Haven't got the chance to shoot an elk with it. Work etc keeps getting in the way.

Any relation to Joe the Plumber? grin..

whoops doubletapped

Try the Speer 350 grn. bullet. It was originally designed to use in the .458 WM, and therefore is built a bit tougher than some others.

Someone told me they tried and that bullet won't work. They said the cannelure is in the wrong place. Crimping in the cannelure leads to an OAL too long to feed through a Marlin.

I don't know this first-hand, didn't try it, just passing on what was reported to me.

Good bullet for the Ruger .45-70 single shot, though.

Tom

Try the Lee .45-70 factory crimp die and you can crimp where you wish .

How about cast bullets ? Why not give them a try ?

God bless
Wyr

Well you know how "someone" is...sometime's he don't know squat from a Baby Ruth and just keeps proving it.

The Hornady 350 RN bullet base to bottom edge of the cannelure is about 0.420" and it's about 0.054" wide, the bullet OAL is about 0.990" so the cannelure is roughly right in the middle of the bullet, so splitting the width at 0.027", adding that number to the trimmed 45-70 at 2.05" and you come up with around 2.497" COAL.

I don't see any problem with that COL working through a lever gun. My 336 Marlin in 356 Win will handle up to 2.67" COL after I did a bit of fiddling and it would handle 2.57" COL BEFORE I fiddled. You can always trim the case a bit more, crimp somewhere in the groove and come up with a shorter COL and not hurt the ballistics any.

Both the 350 RN or the FP are excellent bullets for use in the 45-70 or 450 M in Marlin or 45 cal rechambered Marlin or Win leverguns and are designed to function throughout a higher velocity range. Check out a Hornady Manual for the velocity ranges of all Hornady bullets.

Look at it this way...if it doesn't mushroom much, it will act like a solid or a hard cast bullet and penetrate or punch completely through. If it does mushroom well, it will act like it should and produce a larger wound channel and possibly a large exit wound...the best of both worlds.

Bullet construction, how they "should" work, which one is "THE BEST" and so forth, keeps the pot boiling over on every forum I ever checked out. Everone picks the one they like and will get frothy-mouthed, red faced, apoplectic, totally crazed and fight to the death, trying to "defend" their position.

Hey...pick the one you like and dance with the one you brung...ain't no thang...they're all pretty in some way, they all kill as long as the hunter does his job and I shoot them all in my 458 WM AND 45-70, soon to be 45-100, NEF.

For heavy brush and elk I would use a 400-450 gr...and not to put to fine a point on it...placing the bullet where it does the most good is far more important than bullet construction or how heavy it is.

He was referring to the Speer 350. And that was correct; if you use spec brass and seat to the cannelure, it is too long for the Marlin. Probably be an okay bullet for a "poop" shot. I'd use the 300 Uni-Cor and avoid hitting poop though.

AHHHHHhhh...I see that now, I missed that totally...I don't have any 350g Speers on hand to measure so I checked Speer's site and my other data... the bullet is 0.990". I also rechecked the Hornady 350...it is 0.890"...wrong pair of glasses on...but the cannelure is the same so the COAL would be 0.050" less using the Hornady 350.

Speer's bullet picture looked like it had a groove about midpoint that could be used or the case could be trimmed back enough to be crimped in the cannelure and still work through Marlins without loosing any worthwhile pizzazz. I trim cases all the time, depending on circumstances, to get case, crimp, feeding, etc, to come out right. Sometimes it does impact ballistics a slight amount, but no animal I shot ever read my ballistic charts that I know of. There are lots of ways to get things you like to work like you want.

I would be interested in any measurements, base to cannelure, you could post...the Speer 350 is a good looking bullet, nice shape, good BC and I like the HotCors well enough to use them in several of my smaller cals, I just haven't gotten around to using then yet in my 45 cals...mostly 400g jacketed and 425-525 hard cast, any 300g for the small stuff.

It might work well in my SMLE 458 WM MINIMUM conversion as the max COAL is 3.04" for the mag. It also might work great in my soon to be 45-100 NEF BC for the smaller game...as soon as the reamer and brass get here this week.

I've shot up over 250 mixed weight, cast and jacketed, 45 cal bullets over the past month working up loads for the SMLE. Now I have to get another order off to Midway. See what done gone and done.

I don't hunt with "poopshooters" more than once and don't eat their BBQ's either.

The 350 Speer is a MUCH tougher bullet than the 350 Hornady. Have used them all in various 45-70s over a period of 20 years. The best of the bunch, though, is the 405gr traditional Remington, if you can find them. They should not be confused with the Speer 400gr, which is much, much softer. The 405 Remington will work on anything in N.A., from coyote to moose. And, it has a better BC than the others and will fly quite flat if pushed around 2000fps. It can be used on big game to over 300 yds.

As mentioned by another poster, the Lee crimp die can be used on the 350 Speer and the 405 Remington without worry over the location of the cannulure. Especially if the load is lightly compressed. Using AA2015 or RL-7, 2000 fps with a 400gr is possible without undue stress in a 22" barrel.

My 1895 Marlin is the standard with a 22" tube and beautiful wood. I've owned 3 of 'em and a Guide Gun. My current Marlin is the best of the lot. I like the pistol grip for control and it balances better that the GG. With the same handload, it betters the GG by 100 to 150fps.

Short range elk medicine out of a guide gun? I'd load up some 425gr Pile driver Jrs from Beartooth bullets and call it done. Any of the well known hardcast bullet makers in a 400gr or heavier size should be just the cat's azz on elk.

A simple 405 gr government bullet cast from 20-1 will penetrate thru about any elk manufactured around this part of the world , ad it doesn't need to be driven to recoil bone crushing velocities to do it.
The 350 gr Hornday roundnose doing about 1700 out of a Marlin will definetly take and elk, but I wouldn't use it again, unless that's all I had.
The 300 gr bullets will work alright, afterall that's what's making the 454 casull famous.
Now if you want spectacular cast bullet preformance on elk whip up a 550 gr paper patch bullet to about 1200 fps...

A friend borrowed my GG and took it to Sask for a over-the-bait bear hunt with the Leverevolution ammo. I wondered about the choice; it does about 1800 fps out of my GG.

Anyway, he got the bear "harvest" on video and there is a horizontal geiser of blood the diameter of a broom handle out the off side of the bruin. I don't know what that means, if anything, concerning elk but there it is. The bruin pancaked on his nose, got up to go down the last time.

I believe, though, as an inexperienced 45-70 user on elk, I'd choose a heavier bullet.

Gdv

Yep, 405 hardcast with wheel weights and just enough FFg to make it "crack" istead of "boom". It's not a 350 yard antelope load, but that's not the project.

Wayne

300 gr Remington fired into water-filled milk jugs from 20 yards at a muzzle velocity of 2115 fps. Bullet fragments were all recovered from the third milk jug and combined weight was 152 grains, the lead pancake measured .849" dia.


350 gr Swift on the left, 350 gr Hornady FNSP on the right.
Swift mv=2046 fps, recovered from 7th jug, weighed 345 gr, measured .710" dia.
Hornady mv=2086 fps, recovered from 6th jug, weighed 296 gr, measured .846" dia.


Remington 405 gr factory load, didn't chronograph it, I'd estimate about 1300 fps mv. Recovered from 8th jug, weighed 397 grains and measured .530" dia.


I'd show you a photo of the 425 gr Piledriver, but I haven't got enough milk jugs to catch one yet...

Guy your pictures sort of make a fella wonder, if that lowly remington factory load did 8 jugs and that super dooper Swift did 7, which of those 2 rounds was easier on the gun and the shooter, and do you suppose a critter hit with one would be any deader than with the other?