|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
Couldn't have any more wicked then , than it is today
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 213
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 213 |
Those are not religions, they are Christian denominations.
Your church, or denomination, tells you evangelize (in fact, you just said so), not necessarily the belief.
And, why would the church tell you to evangelize? Why, to increase the size of the flock, and thus the $$$$$$ take, to put it bluntly. I've corrected my previous post to reflect denominations, not religions. That was an error on my part. My denomination, as do most denomiations, tell us to go and spread the word of Christ. If that wasn't the point of Christianity, is there any point to it at all? That's what Christianity is. As far as the increased $$$$, this is not supposed to be used to anyone's personal benefit, nor for building shrines to the denomination. I'm sure you can find hundreds of examples of financial abuse in Christian churches, but that is not the basis of Christianity. St. Paul tells those he sends out to pay their own way (Paul was tent maker), so they are not seen by others as a burden on those who support them (aka leeches). The church has evolved such that leadership positions are paid roles and in some, very well paid roles, which I think has brought very negative publicity to the church and in some cases very poor leaders (people more interested in $$$$ than Christ; people more interested in a new Lexus than a new mission in Africa). Related to your comment about $$$. One place the Anglican church has been spending a lot of money is in Africa. From a $$$ point of view, this is money down the drain. There is no expectation of every getting anything back, but we continue to send missionaries there to spread the word of Christ. It's not about $$$ it's about spreading the word. Funny, I thought the point of Christianity was a personal relationship with God, through Christ, for salvation. To the point of the $$$, no, it's not $$ down the drain, since the church is using it to increase it's influence internationally, and it's building churches, etc. Oh, and they use it as a driver for even great than usual donations. No, it's always about the $$$$$$. I don't think you'll find Christ or St. Paul talk too much about a personal relationship with Christ. And even if they did, how's that going to happen without people spreading the word of Christ. As far as it being about money, it shouldn't be, but it probably is more often than not. Again, that's what people have done to Christianity, not what Christianity is. I could make the same argument that Islam is all about killing Christians and it would be equally silly.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
Those are not religions, they are Christian denominations.
Your church, or denomination, tells you evangelize (in fact, you just said so), not necessarily the belief.
And, why would the church tell you to evangelize? Why, to increase the size of the flock, and thus the $$$$$$ take, to put it bluntly. I've corrected my previous post to reflect denominations, not religions. That was an error on my part. My denomination, as do most denomiations, tell us to go and spread the word of Christ. If that wasn't the point of Christianity, is there any point to it at all? That's what Christianity is. As far as the increased $$$$, this is not supposed to be used to anyone's personal benefit, nor for building shrines to the denomination. I'm sure you can find hundreds of examples of financial abuse in Christian churches, but that is not the basis of Christianity. St. Paul tells those he sends out to pay their own way (Paul was tent maker), so they are not seen by others as a burden on those who support them (aka leeches). The church has evolved such that leadership positions are paid roles and in some, very well paid roles, which I think has brought very negative publicity to the church and in some cases very poor leaders (people more interested in $$$$ than Christ; people more interested in a new Lexus than a new mission in Africa). Related to your comment about $$$. One place the Anglican church has been spending a lot of money is in Africa. From a $$$ point of view, this is money down the drain. There is no expectation of every getting anything back, but we continue to send missionaries there to spread the word of Christ. It's not about $$$ it's about spreading the word. Funny, I thought the point of Christianity was a personal relationship with God, through Christ, for salvation. To the point of the $$$, no, it's not $$ down the drain, since the church is using it to increase it's influence internationally, and it's building churches, etc. Oh, and they use it as a driver for even great than usual donations. No, it's always about the $$$$$$. I don't think you'll find Christ or St. Paul talk too much about a personal relationship with Christ. And even if they did, how's that going to happen without people spreading the word of Christ. As far as it being about money, it shouldn't be, but it probably is more often than not. Again, that's what people have done to Christianity, not what Christianity is. I could make the same argument that Islam is all about killing Christians and it would be equally silly. Ain't had St. Paul, or Christ, evangelize to me, either. Will get back to you when that happens.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 213
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 213 |
I'm sure at some point in your life your read some of Christ's words or Paul's letters. Those words are directed to all of us.
Anyway, my point was not to try to convert you, but to try to shed some light from the other side on why Christians feel the need evangelize every time you speak with them.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
I've read considerable amounts, in and of numerous faiths.
I'm trying to shed some light on why many (myself included) find it obnoxious and offensive when a christian feels that they must evangelize to someone whether that person wants to hear it (esp. from the christian) or not.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
May I try to clarify something here?
I'm not an evangelist.
My role in the Body of Christ is that of a teacher, to edify anyone who wants to be edified re the Body of Christ � "the Way," His early adherents called it before they were first called "Christians" (probably pejoratively!). Thus I reach out to anyone who seems to be honestly seeking to know what's really true about any aspect of Christianity. It's neither my role nor my intent to persuade anybody against his will. ("He who's persuaded against his will remains unpersuaded still.") The decision for you to consider, to discuss, to accept, or to reject is of course yours.
But I have to give edification my utmost effort as long as I think that I detect an honest desire to know what's so.
As I've so often told my students, "I can not teach you. I can only help you learn."
If you reject my efforts, not so fine, but let's not be antagonists. When I say in all good heart, "Vaya con Dios," please take it as "All the best to you 'n' yourn, now 'n'ever" (because that's how I mean it).
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 62
Campfire Greenhorn
|
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 62 |
Each man is an Island unto him or herself. There are two arguments in life that you cannot and will not win..Politics and religion, so most of us should stop burning up time...I know this,from reading many of the posts above....some of us better hope there is no God...IMHO
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
I know this,from reading many of the posts above....some of us better hope there is no God...IMHO Yep, and here comes the ubiquitous scare tactic............ when losing, just make sure to tell the other party that "they'll burn in hell", basically for disagreeing with you. That one is just a classic.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
In one of the posts above, someone says that the words of the Bible are for all of us.
I won't quarrel with that, but I must point-out that the Old Testament was written for people who professed allegiance to God before He sent Jesus to 'em, and the New Testament was written to groups of people who were already disciples of Jesus. (Take a look for yourself.)
The epistles in particular were written to groups of disciples who'd fallen victim to deception or into error and needed the help of a Spirit-sent expert who knew how to help 'em get straight.
I trust that the significance of the distinction is obvious.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
� the ubiquitous scare tactic � tell the other party that "they'll burn in hell", basically for disagreeing with you. � If I tell you that such-and-such bridge is too weak to support your car and you ignore the warning, do you wind-up in the water because you "disagree" with me, or because the bridge collapses under your car?
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 213
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 213 |
From the point of view of Christianity, sure they'll burn in hell. Pointing it out to them doesn't really change anything - it only gives them a dimmer view of Christians - which makes things more difficult for the next Christian that trys to help them.
If someone doesn't want to be preached to don't. Let them know you're there if they want to talk about Christ.
The info I'm being given is that it takes 40 encounters with people sharing their Christian experiences to make someone decide to take a serious look at welcoming Christ into their life. The first 39 people think they did nothing and the last person thinks they did everything. If one of the first 39 uses the "burn in hell" threat, the 40th person doesn't have a chance.
Last edited by Reiche; 04/20/09.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 117
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 117 |
The existence of God has been argued for and against for ages. There are still complex problems lying in front of todays great thinkers - there are some questions that still nobody knows the answer to, and no one will know the answer to in this life. If you don't believe then agree to disagree - there's no argument.
...
Christianity is a religion based on Faith in the unseen - you either believe it or not. There is no grey area. You can try your hardest to corner or disprove God with human reason - but human rules don't apply to Him! Laws of physics, time, etc...out the window.
Some "followers" can make a bad name for our Creator, but that doesn't change who He is. Just because one or many "so-and-so"s did this or that, doesn't change the fact that God is an awesome God.
You believe or you don't - it's your choice.
The choices we make today determine who we become in the future.
I am proud that we live in a country, bought and paid for by the blood, sweat, and tears of good men, in which we can freely and openly debate our own beliefs...or any subject for that matter.
HTB
HRCH Superchamp's Pocket Change "PESO"
�Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.�-GENESIS 1:28
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
� the ubiquitous scare tactic � tell the other party that "they'll burn in hell", basically for disagreeing with you. � If I tell you that such-and-such bridge is too weak to support your car and you ignore the warning, do you wind-up in the water because you "disagree" with me, or because the bridge collapses under your car? A bridge weakness can be proven. Heaven and Hell, and whether your road or another takes you to one, or the other, cannot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,464
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,464 |
Case in point. Attended a service for my father-in-law yesterday, he passed away about 3 weeks ago. Father-in-law stated before he died that he didn�t want to have a religious service. The evangelical daughter and son-in-law decide that there will be a couple of hymns to start things off, first one something to do with walking with Jesus and the second one Amazing Grace, like who doesn�t like Amazing Grace. While perhaps not adhering 100% to the father-in-laws wishes, no harm done, and the Christians get to feel better about themselves.
I thought as did the rest of the family that the hymns were it, nothing more, but never underestimate the arrogance, insensitivity, self-proclaimed holiness and obnoxiousness of an evangelical Christian. Once he got that portable microphone in his hand, the brother-in-law started in on preaching about Jesus not being a ghost because we could feel him or some such bloody nonsense. I asked my wife if she wanted me to shut him up, given the event and all the old people there she suggested we just bear it.
Well the evangelical Christian brother-in-law ruined what had been up to that time a very nice ceremony. There will be acrimony in the family for some time to come over the imposition of this religious rant on the family and guests all who knew the father-in-law as a good, kind, generous non-religious individual who deserved better treatment from his daughter and son-in-law.
I realize that these brainless, moronic evangelical Christians can�t help themselves, because it is incumbent upon them to enlighten the rest of us, but they are still the biggest [bleep] in the universe as far as I am concerned.
Last edited by n007; 04/20/09.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
Case in point. Attended a service for my father-in-law yesterday, he passed away about 3 weeks ago. Father-in-law stated before he died that he didn�t want to have a religious service. The evangelical daughter and son-in-law decide that there will be a couple of hymns to start things off, first one something to do with walking with Jesus and the second one Amazing Grace, like who doesn�t like Amazing Grace. While perhaps not adhering 100% to the father-in-laws wishes, no harm done, and the Christians get to feel better about themselves.
I thought as did the rest of the family that the hymns were it, nothing more, but never underestimate the arrogance, insensitivity, self-proclaimed holiness and obnoxiousness of an evangelical Christian. Once he got that portable microphone in his hand, the brother-in-law started in on preaching about Jesus not being a ghost because we could feel him or some such bloody nonsense. I asked my wife if she wanted me to shut him up, given the event and all the old people there she suggested we just bear it.
Well the evangelical Christian brother-in-law ruined what had been up to that time a very nice ceremony. There will be acrimony in the family for some time to come over the imposition of this religious rant on the family and guests all who knew the father-in-law as a good, kind, generous non-religious individual who deserved better treatment from his daughter and son-in-law.
I realize that these brainless, moronic evangelical Christians can�t help themselves, because it is incumbent upon them to enlighten the rest of us, but they are still the biggest [bleep] in the universe as far as I am concerned.
How dare you hold that against them? They're "not perfect; just forgiven", and besides, they're right................. just wait, you'll see............
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,722
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,722 |
I know a man that raises horses. For years he allowed people to hunt. Two different times he had a "hunter" shoot one of his horses! To this day the man has no problem with "hunting" or "hunters" it just will not happen on his land no more.
I understand why many people don't like Christians. I deal with some that I'd rather not often. Thing is WE ain't all the same. I share my faith when the Lord lays it on my heart to. In result every person I can think of that I've shared with was very kind toward me and thanked me for my time. Not all prayed to recieve Christ, but was still very pleasant. People trying to force God on me didn't ever work either. I came to a place in my life when I wanted Him, and not just to make something better either. He has blessed me with a wife that believes the same and we are very happy with our relationship with Him and each other. It works for us.........
Christianity is available to everyone, but not for everyone....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,178
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,178 |
I know this,from reading many of the posts above....some of us better hope there is no God...IMHO Yep, and here comes the ubiquitous scare tactic............ when losing, just make sure to tell the other party that "they'll burn in hell", basically for disagreeing with you. That one is just a classic. im gonna do like constantine and wait till the last min so i can live the fun life. then right at the end i'll get saved and baptized. heck i might even blow myself up, just for good measure. gotta cover those bases.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,222
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,222 |
I only share my personal beliefs and faith when asked, I sure wish others would do the same. BTW - I do not consider myself a Christian. 
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". John Adams
"A dishonest man can always be trusted to be dishonest". Captain Jack Sparrow
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,722
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,722 |
For the most part I don't see how these kind of threads help. Both sides get to have their say but it's falling on deaf ears. Both sides have done made up their minds.
I will say that wile the hundred page 708/308 was/is back and forth back and forth, I did learn something....
I learned that the Montana is the better gun for a WSM and the 700 is the better gun for a short action .473 case.
Maybe through all this back and forth someone can take something out of this thread and help them a little bit like the 308 thread did for me......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
� the ubiquitous scare tactic � tell the other party that "they'll burn in hell", basically for disagreeing with you. � If I tell you that such-and-such bridge is too weak to support your car and you ignore the warning, do you wind-up in the water because you "disagree" with me, or because the bridge collapses under your car? A bridge weakness can be proven. Heaven and Hell, and whether your road or another takes you to one, or the other, cannot. I wasn't addressing that � it's a separate matter altogether. I was just pointing-out that zealous opposition to an unacceptable conclusion had led to a mad gallop off the cliff of simple cause and effect � that it isn't disagreement with the warner that causes the effect but the accuracy of the warning. IOW, if a person refuses a warning and as a result goes to Hell, it isn't his refusal to "agree with the warner" that destines him to eternity without fellowship with God but the accuracy of the warner's warning. If he's destined � for whatever reason � to go there, he'll go there even if he never gets that warning from that warner, not because he's disagreed with that warner. Oh, well � it's obvious that no one here holds a patent or a monopoly on refusing to acknowledge a point. Have a good day, Amigo!
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
589 members (10gaugeman, 10Glocks, 21, 17CalFan, 1234, 219 Wasp, 59 invisible),
1,994
guests, and
1,111
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,466
Posts18,508,318
Members74,002
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
