Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Ackley pros and cons

Congratulations on 40 years.

I am thinking of doing a 223AI. What should be done to insure that factory issue loads shoot well enough to kill prairie dogs and fireform brass with the same trigger pull?

DZ, I have the following Ackleys: 6mm, .257 Roberts, 7mm Mauser, .280, 8mm-06, .35Whelen, .375-06 and .375 [email]HH.[/email] I have noticed the largest gains in the 6mm, .257, 7mm, and the .375 Ackley. My favorites are the 6mm Ackley, .257 Ackley, .280 Ackley and the 8mm-06 Ackley. I really enjoyed the article you wrote in Varmint Hunter on the .280 Ackley. It was extremely well written and very informative. Your results corresponded a lot with what I experienced with both my .280 Ackley and .280 RCBS improved. All of these cartridges are fun to shoot and in my mind just having/shooting something that not every Tom, Dick and Harry have is very stimulating.

PDS,

I've suffered through several reader's custom .223 Ackley rifles. Honestly, I haven't seen a one that didn't shoot factory ammo great. In fact, the typical reader comments, "Wow, it shoots factory GREAT (usually half-inch or so). I wonder if it can possibly shoot my Ackley handloads nearly as well." Yeah, they always shoot well, whether the ammo is factory or precision handloads.

As an aside, I've shot factory .223 ammo in all three of my .223 Ackleys in the Leupold tube. Winchester Supreme, Hornady and Black Hills all shot beyond my expectations (all under 3/4 for 5-shot groups). I have no contacts at Remington or Federal, but I have every reason to believe that they would be great, too.

The ability to fire, and fire with accuracy, factory ammo in an Improved varmint gun is an excellent attribute for a gun writer's rifle. The ammo companies hand out all the free ammo you can shoot on the industry prairie dog hunts. Hell, I ain't proud; I'll shoot the stuff and go home with scads of wonderfully fireformed brass. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I always travel with a case or so of .223 Ackley handloads. On the windy afternoons, the .223 Ackley with a 40-grain Ballistic or V-Max at 4,000 fps makes dogs just plain easier to hit.

Back to your question: I suspect a lot of the accuracy in foreforming is a function of a great chamber. Your gunsmith should headspace the Improved .003" to .005" SHORT of the headspace datum of the standard .223 Remington. This type of chamber crushes the shoulder and indexes the round in the center of the chamber. At the same time, the case base is held hard against the bolt face.

Off the subject: I have experienced much lower extreme spread (and corresponding standard deviation figures) with Ackley cartridges, when compared to the parent rounds. This is painting with a broad brush, but I think the relationship is a true one.

This is especially true in the .223 Remington versus the .223 Ackley. I seemingly cannot get low extreme spreads in the .223 Rem. Yeah, I can get superb accuracy with the standard .223, but the high ES/SD figures bug me.

I've heard folks say that Ackley cartridges give finer accuracy than standard rounds and I believe this is total BS. In my opinion, accuracy is a function of the 4B's. Accuracy comes from a great barrel, superb bedding, excellent brass and a perfect bullet...........I would add a "C"---Chamber. If the chamber is perfectly aligned to the bore and cut as it should be, it adds a lot.

Actually, what I think such folks are seeing is the effect of a custom chamber versus a factory hack-job.

More later, I have to attend my bride of FORTY YEARS. She's still as lovely as the lass I married on July 11, 1964. She's a better shot now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'll try to attach a photo of the lady to this post. Photo was taken about seven months ago.

Steve

Congrats on the 40 years. Now go have fun with the Misses...

Hey DZ;
Congrats on the forty year milestone!! My wife & I will celebrate ours on Aug. first. Who would have thought any woman could put up with the likes of me this long.
Enjoy!
Jerry

Congratulations Steve! Marg and I just celebrated our 37th!



.........and thanks again for your encouragement a while back on my 223 Ackley project; 40 gr Ballistic Tips are going just under 4000 ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Yukoner,

Congratulations yourself!! Isn't it amazing how few folks stay together and how wonderful it is when you do.

I'm delighted the .223 Ackley project worked out so well for you. It is just a super-excellent round.

By the way, Karen and I went jack rabbit hunting on our honeymoon. 1964 was about the peak of the rabbit cycle in Central Oregon and the ranchers were pleading for hunters to kill the dang things. We killed several hundred each per day and had a blast.

Thanks again,

Steve

Man do I feel inadequate. I am coming up on 5 this October.

Congrats to all.

Oh, another thought before Killer Karen and I get dinner ready.

In big game Ackley cartridges, a lot of folks simply treat them as a slightly-super version of the parent cartridge, with the added reloading benefit of lessened trimming.

For instance, Nosler's last handloading manual quotes a super-hot .280 Remington load (with RL-19) that launches a 140-grain bullet at 3,152 fps. Undoubtedly, the pressure is pretty spiffy and it is just about all the steam a fella is likely to get out of the .280.

My most-used big game load in the .280 Ackley gets 3,170 fps out of the 140 Ballistic Tip and it is devistating on anything from antelope to elk. The load is more than adequate, cases last forever and primer pockets stay tight forever. It's all I need and could ever want.

Yes, I can (and used to) shoot the same bullet at 3,250+ fps. At the higher velocity level, the accuracy is still superb, but case life (especially primer pockets) is shorter and extraction feels very, very slightly sticky when temperatures are unexpectedly high. Yeah, it shoots a bit flatter, not that I'd notice it at game ranges, but the extra oomph just doesn't seen worth it.

Basically, at 3,170 fps I'm shooting the hottest mother of a .280 Remington, only I'm enjoying the benefits of much lower pressure by using the larger .280 Ackley case configuration. There is a large safety factor built into the case, when used in this fashion.

Oh, I might mention that when I finally settle on a new big game load, whether Ackley or not, I fire the load in a single case ten times.

I handload at the range and it is easy to do this test. Anyway, I figger that if a single cartridge case can be loaded with the new load and still have a tight primer pocket , the load is of low enough pressure to be safe. Yeah, it's kind of Cowboy Ballistics, but it is a sure-fire emperical test of a new load.

Off to dinner. Water buffalo tenderloin; yum, yum. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Steve

Congats to your and your lovely lady DZ. Babe and I hit the 38 year mark in April, and yes, she is a better shot than when we got married also. Matter of fact, somedays she is a better shot than I am!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My experience with Ackley cartridges is about like most everyone else. I think it is something everyone should try at least once in their lifetime. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I have had a 257 AI and a 30-06 AI. I came a stones throw from making a 338-06 AI but ended up with a 338 Win Mag instead. My 30-06 AI was an enjoyable experience, but I finally realized that about all I was trying to do was get 300 Mag velocities from a 30-06 case. I managed to push the 200 grain Nosler Partition to a bit past 2900 with good accuracy and perhaps more pressure than made sense. I finally ended backing off to 2850 and used this load and rifle for a couple of years on most everything when I lived in North Idaho. Trouble was, I still pushed the same bullet some faster in a 300 Win Mag with less strain on the brass and no doubt on the rifle also. Finally someone thought they couldn't live without it and ended up taking it home with them. As far as I know they still have it and use it every year. The 257 AI has a similair story, but not nearly as happy an ending. The barrel was replaced with a 25-06 tube and it also has found a new home. I don't know where that rifle is anymore.

I might add, that although Clay Harvey has drawn a bit of critiism on this forum, evidently rightfully so I might add, he made a statement that I do agree with. He mentioned that if a person was going to push Ackley Improved rounds to the limit he would suggest using Remington rifles. Both of the Ackleys I had were on 721 actions and they seemed more than able for anything I put through them, even some loads I'm not real proud of today. Older age has finally mellowed me out a bit and I look back at those times as a fun event in my life, but I myself will pass on future developements like that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

There are definate advantages to some AI rounds, but I myself actually believe the hype some attain, not all though, are a bit of overworked imagination. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

THAT'S the information I was fishing for! I was just too ignorant to know the right question. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks.

I've found that the .222 isn't real consistant over a crony <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> but the holes in the paper tell a diferent story.

Anyway, my .222 is showing signs that it's barrel is going belly up. And... I have this pretty blue and white swirly McMillan stock sitting around with nothing in it... So I'm thinking while I have expert advice avaliable I might as well twist one up.

I just got in from overworking my imagination via KS SUCKS based 25-06AI. Hadn't granted it any range time,since poking alloy Talley's and a "lowly" 6x42 leupie upon it.

That "overworked" sumbitch done as it usually does and profoundly influenced yet another pard,which will cause Redding share holders to rejoice(grin). The clusters printed would be scoffed by naysayers,so I won't bother,despite multi members of this Forum demonstrating likewise with the very rifle.

I tend to put much store in my personal findings and would rate more than a few Ackley offerings as SINISTER(dat's a good thing).................

Is any one here using a 30-30 AI ? Don't the ballistics come close to that of the 35 Remingtin ? It sure seems like you could load partitions or something of the sort and turn the old carbine into a heck of a two shooter.

Steve--

Congrats on the marriage milestone! Gonna celebrate by planning another hunting trip?

Now I get to log on with the other side of the Ackley question.
I have fooled around with several, and have quit. Here's why:

1) Despite seeing some increase on the chronograph, it was never significantly more than about 100 fps with the same barrel length. This revolves around the 1-4 rule, and turned out to be undetectable in the field, in either trajectory or killing power.

This relates to something else I have noticed over the years. In general, if a cartridge/bullet combination provides enough penetration for the game hunted, then I have a hard time telling any difference in how well it kills. In other words, I have never been able to tell the difference in killing power between a .30-06 and various .300 magnums, and I have hunted with a bunch of them.

I know this is contrary to what a lot og gun articles claim, wherein the .280 (for instance) is supposed to be noticeably better than the .270 because of some fractional differences in bore diameter or bullet weight. But none of the big game animals I've shot with either cartridge seemed to be able to tell what i shot 'em with.

Trajectory is a little different sory. Even the smallest .300's gain at least 200 fps over the .30-06, and some gain 400 fps. That starts to flatten things, especially out around 400 yards. But 100 fps (optimistic in most AI rounds) just doesn't do much.

2) I almost had a .223 AI built, because then I wouldn't have trim several hundred rounds of prairie dog brass, but then started to load my regular .223 with Redding match dies with the bushing neck-sized. I don't ever have to trim those either!

Choose a relatively steep-necked case in the first place, neck-size it carefully, and keep pressures sane, and you won't have to trim it either.

In big game rounds, it doesn't bother me to trim 40 cases once in a while.

3) Properly chambered AI rifles usually do shoot factory (or pre-fireform handloads) very well. Non-AI chambers also do this, if the rifle is of equal quality.

4) The original AI's were mostly developed before there was a cartridge to close any "gap" in the lineup. Nowadays we have a whole pile of new cartridges that fit almost any perceivable velocity gap. For instance, why build a .280 AI when we have the 7mm short mags? The 7mm SAUM's case capacity is just about identical to the .280, the 7mm WSM's just a little more. You don't have to fireform 'em, and they work just swell in a short action--especially a push-feed. Why bother with the AI?

The same goes for almost any other cartridge. The .250 Savage AI is just a slightly shorter version of the .257 Roberts, buit generally doesn't feed as well the .257. Both work very well in short actions. In long action .25's, why bother with the .25-06 AI when the .257 Weatherby is so user friendly, and with a lot more zip?

One real good AI round is the .300 H&H. Since the 1940's it's been known as the .300 Weatherby.

5) Fire-forming cases at first was fun. Shoot a regular and wham! Neat new round! But for me it got old pretty quickly. It's least painful with a prairie dog round, where you can shoot several hundred in a couple days. In a big game rifle, why bother? Just choose a hotter cartridge in the first place--if you feel the need.

If it all appeals to you, go right ahead. Shooting is supposed to be fun and games. Personally, I get more fun out of fooling with really weird cartridges, like the 9.3x74R or the .405 Winchester, or finding out how to maximize an older round like the .22 Hornet.

Put the Hornet in a 26" single-shot barrel, and seat a plastic-tip 40 well out, over the best of today's powders, and you can get well over 3000 fps--and have a very different cartridge. K-Horneting the average bolt gun doesn't make near as much difference.

But to each his own. Have fun, everyone!

MD

STetson, I can easily push speers 150 gr flatpoint to a little over 2600 fps in my 30-30 ai, using 748 powder. I have been messing with some 170 gr bulletts and h414 and so far 2400 fps is doable.
The trick to getting the most from the 30-30 ai is to use slower powders than in the regular 30-30, the change in case shape changes the burn characteristics just a tad it seems to me.
Mule Deer has a good point on the cons of the Ackleys, but it still fun to use them. As someone else pointed out earlier its sort of comforting to use something that you can't buy at WAlmart.

Mule Deer makes a fine point in several areas. I have never been one to follow the pack for my home gun. When I travel that's another story. What fun would it be if we couldn't ponder projects like a Ruger #1 S chambered in a 308 x 1.5 Barnes ? On the other hand it doesn't make a lot of financial sense to tweak a 30-30 when you can just pick up a 35 remington. I was thinking there are a lot more bullet choices in the 30 cal so a two shot lever gun might be fun. I am always trying to find that perfect lever gun that gives a good group at 150 yards with out being brutal on the recoil. For me that excludes the 444 and the 45-70. The 30-30 is about as anemic as it gets to me although it's hard not to appreciate the history of that old gal. At home the more exotic the better. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As to the supposed benfits of AI cartridges I don't buy DogZappers comments at all except his enthusiasm for it. If it get's gets you excited and makes you get up early in the morning then get one or more.



I have had "improved" cartridges since the early 1960's so how can I tell someone that they can't have them! MuleDeer has the practical take on it however.



I do take exception to MD's comment that the .300 Improved is a good idea. My experiance is from a .375 Improved as chambered by Douglas. There is no support for the shoulder on this case and it suffers head separations. If it had been chambered so as to headspace on the shoulder of the .375 H&H then it would be fine.



The 300 Weatherby is another story as the cases are formed at least somewhere near the shoulder. It's not that good a design as a rimless case however.



The K Hornet has an application as many Hornet chambers have sloppy headspace and it allows a smith to correct that.



I also agree with MD's comments on the killing power of bullets with the exception that around .35 caliber there seems to be an improvement over the smaller bores.

MD,

Thanks for the counterpoint.

Since I'm easily able to defer the decision (especially since the factory rifle that may or may not get modified isn't even here yet), I need some standard .223 dies to tide me over.

Sounds like the Redding bushing-type dies are the way to go. I'm thinking I'll get the FL bushing dies, to have the flexibility of partial sizing or bumping the shoulder back when needed -- does that make sense?

John

Savage 99--

All good points on your partm, though I'd like to make a couple more comments.

Actually I didn't quite say the .300 H&H AI (or Weatherby) was a good idea. By calling it "good" I meant that it was one of the AI cartridges that gained something over the original.

This gain isn't as much as most folks believe, however, as .300 H&H factory ammo is somewhat underloaded and .300 Weatherby factories are pretty hot. When loaded to the same pressures, the Wby. gains about 120 fps over the H&H case.

I have owned a couple of .300 Weatherbys but eventually got tired of fighting the freebore. One wildcat solution to this is the .300 Jarrett, which uses the 8mm Remington Mag case necked down. My personal solution, however, was the .300 Winchester Magnum in a 25" barrel, as per Charlie Sisk, which comes so close to the .300 Weatherby that it doesn't matter. (I also have a custom barreled Model 70 in .300 H&H and a Kimber 8400 in .300 WSM. Both will do anything I want a .300 magnum for, since both will push a 180 to 3000.)

I agree that something happens in the middle-.30's area with killing power. I like the 9.3mm and .375 bores a lot, mostly because of heavier bullets generally available than in .35. But the animals generally have to REALLY big for me to make the jump from the .270/7mm/.30 calibers, which have proven adequate for about any non-dangerous game on earth.

The only .375 "Improved" I ever fooled around with was my very first fire-forming experience, turning a .375 H&H case into a .375 Wby. It worked fine in that particular rifle, which was made by Dave Gentry, but might not in others. It gained about 100 fps over the .375 H&H, which I have stuck to ever since.

MD

John Frazer,

When I get a new cartridge I am now ordering the Lee Collet die set along with a Redding "S" type FL die. After loading some rounds measure the neck diameter per the instructions and order a bushing.

The FL "S" die comes with an expanding button and another decaping pin holder that is smaller than the neck ID and has no expanding button. The idea of all this is to work the necks as little as possible and it avoids lubricating the insides of the necks as well.

If one orders a standard die set then there are some good brands with RCBS being the best for my use. The Redding FL dies are good but they have no bleed hole like the RCBS does and they will dent shoulders faster.

As to seating dies I have some bench rest type ones but the standard dies seem to do just as well for me as long as everything else is right. On of those just rights is to chamfer the inside of a neck at a very gradual angle. I use an industrial 15 degree tool and Lyman makes a 22 degree one. I read that Sinclair sells one that's adjustable. I feel there is less runout and more consistancy when the bullet seats with a soft feel.