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My 28 inch tubed 7x300 wtby gets out the window on hogs fast enough....

Isaac

Two things only from all the advice I continue to read, IMHO you need to SHOOT a 16 incher before you get one, so you are aware of the noise level, even using plugs and muffs. I'm not saying its horrible, but there is a HUGE difference between it and even one of my 18s.....

Second another poster talked Tier 1 guns, though some of us have pointed away from them for the dollars, be aware you cannot go wrong with a tier one gun. Its just that you spend a bit more cash. Some feel better with that and thats cool too. Some of us know its not needed, but then we know how to trouble shoot and IF we get a bad RRA for example, its easy to fix and we go through a few things like trigger pins, and gas keys to name 2, right away to make sure thats good. IE its cheaper for me to look at them than to pay a couple hundred extra to not have to.

Here is a 16 inch at night, no flash hider.



I had Peltor muffs on and was standing next to the guy. I safed my AR and got off the line after his second round. It was THAT loud.

ETA: Here is the trade off-

16 inch


24 inch

Well, if you want bragging rights, it's hard to beat the Elcan Spectre DR for an optic. Good enough for SOCOM and not many can afford the $1800 price.

http://www.elcan.com/ELCAN_Business_Areas/Sighting_Systems/Products/Day_Sights/SpecterDR.php

Bend, if you think a 16incher is loud, you should try narrow halls with comps mounted on 10.5in guns... Make your buddy smile!




Tod, while the Elcan seems like a good idea, as someone who is issued them I can tell you they suck. The mount is crap, and because of the external adjustments, you can't keep them zeroed. At least in my little world, the guys who had to turn in their ACOG's, did so kicking and screaming.

I had one of the 1st Gen Elcans. I thought the concept was Dick Tracy cool but the finished product sucked. The scope would wiggle on the mount and the glass wasn't anywhere near as good as it should have been for the price I paid. Lucky for me they were still hard to get and I was able to recoupe my investment.

I'm still kinda partial to my NF and it was $600 cheaper to boot.

Terry

I've been kinda fond of the acog for some reason... I have shot a bunch of them but never quite bought one for my rifles but its on the list...

Good to know about the Elcan, Charles. I was seriously considering this glass. I like the idea of a non-powered 1x scope, or a 1-4x. I've tried a few and haven't found one I really like. I was not impressed by the ACOG as I have trouble shooting with both eyes open with anything over about 2x and don't care for the amber reticle. My first 40x ACOG also kept loosening from the picatinny base all the time - it wasn't a particularly good fit. That's disappointing for a scope that costs that much.

Of all the Trijicon sights, I like the Reflex best, but it does love to collect dust and can be hard to clean.

Anyone want to recommend a good 1x, non-powered optic for an AR?

It's no secret I love 16" barrels with flash hiders, the fire ball above is no exageration yet a Vortex flash hider elliminates it.

The noise some claim never bothered me. I do have hearing loss from machinery noise and don't hear high pitched sounds. Yet it's not like a 44 mag pistol or even close to the 308 encore pistol I used to shoot, so take that for what it's worth.

Back during the ban years I tried a Bushmaster mini Y comp and it took 4 rounds to decide I'm selling the gun, quick!

Velocity wise, I chronographed several AR's with 14.5, 16 and 20" barrels with the same lot of XM193 ammo and lost 100 fps from the 20" to the 16". I can live with that. However an 18" will pick up most of that lost from what I hear, the 17" Kreiger I owned did but it was a higher end barrel and was supposed to be all that.

Pointing things out the window, common sense says a 16" AR will come out easier and quicker than a 20" or longer barrel, I mean come on...

While not a true 1 power, I still say the Leupold 1.5-5 is hard to beat as an all around optic. If you gotta have a red dot, go Aimpoint and change the battery once a year or so if your worried about it.

I hated the lack of eye relief on the ACOG I tried. The Elcan had the worst glass I ever saw, did not impress me at all. The 3 Eo-tech's I've had all "bloomed" with my astigmatism too much, Aimpoint not so much. The Trijicon Reflex my buddy had didn't impress me either, dot washed out too easy and is not the best color to pick up quickly. I've ran 2.5-8, 1.75-6, 3.5-10, 4.5-14's and 6.5-20's on different AR's and always reach for the 1.5-5.

The ACOG is hella tough, but I too prefer other optics.

Of the LPV's (low power variables) I have solid experience with, the S&B Short-Dot is by far the pinnacle. I don't really care for BDC reticles, finding that I am just as fast dialing in most situations if I need to adjust for drop, and shoot better then if I "run the reticle". The Leupold MK4 1.5-5x M2, Nightforce 1-4x, and the Trijicon TR24 1-4x with the #4ret. are all good optics. The TR24 may end up being THE 1-4. The IOR 1.1-4x is a good scope, but again I don't like the reticle.



There really isn't any red dots that don't use batteries that are worth the cons. Honestly the Aimpoints have such a long battery life (8 years constant on, on some models), and are so durable and reliable I don't fret the battery thing anymore.

Charles, have you used the CompM4? I have a couple of M2s, but they do suck batteries dry. I like the that they've finally switched to AA. I have too many optics that use weird batteries (like 'N' in the old Eotechs).

In regards to optics, I dug up a couple of old posts rather than retype everything:

Here is what I posted in a thread a couple of months ago reference the same topic:

Without going into a lengthy dissertation, I have tried and been issued a number of different optics for M4 type rifles. The short version is, after using red dots such as the Eotech, and fixed power Acogs, I have settled on low powered illuminated variables.

They allow fast, both eyes open shooting at short ranges on the lowest setting, as well as the ability to dial up for more precise placement at longer ranges. This allows flexibilty in ever changing environments.

Check out Leupold 1.5x5s Nightforce 1x4s or 2.5x10s or one of the IOR optics. I do not have any real long term use behind a Schmidt and Bender to give a solid opinion, but when I have used them on others guns, they seemed solid.

I have been running a 1.5x5 Leupold illuminated for a while now in a Larue mount and it has held up exceptionally well given the environments it has been used in. It sees constant use and gets an A+ in my book as an all around optic.


Then in another reply:

Montana,

First off I will toss out this disclaimer. My experiences are unique and have led me to have very definate opinions on things, but that does not mean I am any sort of expert. I do not specialize in strictly CQB. It is simply one part of the pie for me.

I am very much a practical realist. I like gear that is simple to use under stress and can be operated at the level of unconcious competence.

CQB is often an interesting subject, since almost everyone believes they are some sort of CQB God. For example,you should see some of the arguements between former SEALs vs former SF guys on the "right" way to do it. It is highly entertaining to watch. Guys get very heated.

I would like to point out a couple of things that have influenced my optics selection.

A close range situation can very quickly become an extended range situation. For example, you may kick in a door to snatch some guy on a warrant or something. Classic CQB right? If the bad guy reads the script and stays inside, then yes. However if he jumps out a window, gets around the one guy covering that side of the house/structure and takes off through the neighborhood, then things just got interesting and ranges extended substantially. This is not theory, it happened.

Similar situations happen overseas. An intial coordinated attack may involve people up close and personal, with additional bad guys at distance with long guns/belt feds in commanding positions.

Many often associate "Urban" fights with CQB. That is simply not the case. You can get some very long shots in urban areas.

On that note, I would much rather have a fight at a distance than a close range fight. EVERYONE shoots good enough at close range. Proximity negates skill.

I have been issued red dot type optics such as EOTECHs and they are best for me at very close range. However they are not flexible. They only do one thing well and offer no target discrimination.

Fixed power optics such as the ACOG are great too as they allow me to discriminate my targets. I can look down the block and see if Haji is looking at us intently, with a cell phone in his hand getting ready to command detonate an IED on us. It also allows the user to make a better determination as to if a suspicious person is a threat or not. Perhaps (often the case) he is merely an interested observer.

Magnified optics also allow a shooter have a better chance of hitting a bad guy who only pokes part of his body around the corner down the block or at a window or dirt berm.

With all that said, the fixed power magnified optic such as a 4x ACOG is slower to get hits with at very close range such as in a meeting hall or courtyard. However I am still a fan of the 4x ACOG and prefer it over an EOTECH.

These are the reasons I finally settled on a low powered variable with illumination as an option for low light.

They are not as fast as a true red dot holographic type sight (EOTECH) for very close shooting. However with practice they are very close. Another advantage the Eotech has is head position. As long as the red dot is on the target, no matter where the dot is in relationship to the optical picture, you can get a hit. A magnified optic require a more consistant sight picture. With practice however that has not really presented a problem.

I keep my 1.5x5 optic on 1.5 power so I have the ability to shoot with both eyes open very quickly at close range.

When needed, I have the flexibilty to dial the optic up to take a more precise shot at greater distances.

BTW, in reference to my Leupold, I actually chose the VXIII over the MKIV. The reason is I did not like the exposed turrets on the MKIV. Turrets are great if you are dialing shots with a precision rifle, but I have found that shoving rifles between seats and piling kit on top of them is not conducive to keeping turrets on zero. In my line of work, guns and gear are always getting shoved where they can and the VXIII with caps covering the adjustment knobs was a better choice.

Another point. I use the same optic when at home on my Colt that I use for coyote hunting and as a general purpose truck/house gun.

It has proven to be ideal as a calling rifle for song dogs. The coyotes can come in at a dead run and be shot at extremely close ranges, or they may hang up out there 100 or 200 yards while trying to locate the source of the noise. The low powered variable has proven to be ideal. Practicing on jackrabbits is also a good and practical skill builder.

Using the same platform in a variety of sporting and work scenarios builds unconcious competence with the system.

That was rather long winded, but hopefully gets my view across clearly. Remember, I am only one guy, with one opinion, that has been colored by a unique career path. Others may have very different views on the subject.

Cheers.

I'm slowly but surely piecing this project together.

Thanks much, gentlemen!

Out of all I've tried I like this one best for my needs. It's fast on low power and the glass is amazing on high power. I went with the 2.5-10, I think the 1-4 is probably more popular though. I just think the 2.5-10 works better for hunting and target shooting, well for me anyway. In the very unlikely event it was pressed into a defensive role I'm sure it would work just fine. I think the Leupold 1.5-5X20 illuminted would work for me too.



Terry

Terry,

That 2.5x10 Nightforce is #1 on my optics wish list. In fact I was looking in my safes a couple of days ago contemplating getting rid of some unused and little used items so as to purchase that Nightforce and Larue combo.

I am green with envy.

Terry, I just ordered one of the Leupold 1.5-5X20 illuminted with the circle dot. It should be at the house next week and will go on the LMT/RRA, hoping it will make a good combo.
I sure do like the looks of that 2.5-10 though.

Jimmy,

As you know I have been using the same optic you ordered except with the duplex for a while now. I think you are likelu to be very pleased. It takes a little practice to get used to, but once you get comfortable, shooting it on low end with become a natural thing, or as I like to say " a matter of unconcious competence".

Mine too....sweet scope.

Did you guys go with the 24 or the 32?

Like Terrys, I'll go for the 24 when I can afford it.